Re: Na:K

[Guest guest]

Hello Kc in AZ,

I am sorry, I really should know better than post abbreviations....

ok - here's a short explanation.

Na = stands for natrium or sodium - or simply salt ... a " healthy "

sodium reading would be just about in the middle of the given norm

range. Norm readings vary from lab to lab, but usually range from

around 138 - 150something. A " good " reading would be somewhere in the

middle.

K = stands for kalium or potassium. A " healthy " potassium reading is

not necessarily one that is within the given lab norm range. If it

were at either end of the range, it might need investigation (IMO

anyway). An " optimal " potassium reading would be between 4 and 4.5

(although again, you get slight variations within the lab norm

ranges).

You can work out the Na:K ratio by dividing the Na (higher figure) by

the K (smaller one).... for example - my own readings were Na 142,

Potassium 5.8 ...... so 142 : 5.8 = 24.48 - therefore 24.48 is

my Na:K ratio.

A " healthy " Na:K ratio should be in the low to mid thirties. A ratio

below 30 should raise an eyebrow and a ratio below 27 is considered

positively too low. As I understand it, the ratio is not the " be all

and end all " , you always have to look at the actual figures and

clinical picture too, but it is a pretty good indication that all is

not well in the adrenal department when a ratio falls below the magic

figure of 27.... - Low sodium and high potassium can be indicators

for 's disease ... hence my question.

Hope I haven't muddied the waters further ;o)

Best wishes,

[Guest guest]

Hello Kc in AZ,

I am sorry, I really should know better than post abbreviations....

ok - here's a short explanation.

Na = stands for natrium or sodium - or simply salt ... a " healthy "

sodium reading would be just about in the middle of the given norm

range. Norm readings vary from lab to lab, but usually range from

around 138 - 150something. A " good " reading would be somewhere in the

middle.

K = stands for kalium or potassium. A " healthy " potassium reading is

not necessarily one that is within the given lab norm range. If it

were at either end of the range, it might need investigation (IMO

anyway). An " optimal " potassium reading would be between 4 and 4.5

(although again, you get slight variations within the lab norm

ranges).

You can work out the Na:K ratio by dividing the Na (higher figure) by

the K (smaller one).... for example - my own readings were Na 142,

Potassium 5.8 ...... so 142 : 5.8 = 24.48 - therefore 24.48 is

my Na:K ratio.

A " healthy " Na:K ratio should be in the low to mid thirties. A ratio

below 30 should raise an eyebrow and a ratio below 27 is considered

positively too low. As I understand it, the ratio is not the " be all

and end all " , you always have to look at the actual figures and

clinical picture too, but it is a pretty good indication that all is

not well in the adrenal department when a ratio falls below the magic

figure of 27.... - Low sodium and high potassium can be indicators

for 's disease ... hence my question.

Hope I haven't muddied the waters further ;o)

Best wishes,

[Guest guest]

, THANK YOU ... I try to figure out abbreviations, this one I

couldn't.

I was asking becuase during one of my earlier times of EXTREME stress, my

Prim Care doc called me and asked if I were supplementing with posassium, as

my blood serums were sky high off the charts.

Just trying to put pieces of the puzzle together on this healing path.

Gonna get some labs out to look at.

BTW (by the way) potassium came back into normal ranges as stress eased

up.

kc in AZ

[Guest guest]

, THANK YOU ... I try to figure out abbreviations, this one I

couldn't.

I was asking becuase during one of my earlier times of EXTREME stress, my

Prim Care doc called me and asked if I were supplementing with posassium, as

my blood serums were sky high off the charts.

Just trying to put pieces of the puzzle together on this healing path.

Gonna get some labs out to look at.

BTW (by the way) potassium came back into normal ranges as stress eased

up.

kc in AZ

[Guest guest]

, THANK YOU ... I try to figure out abbreviations, this one I

couldn't.

I was asking becuase during one of my earlier times of EXTREME stress, my

Prim Care doc called me and asked if I were supplementing with posassium, as

my blood serums were sky high off the charts.

Just trying to put pieces of the puzzle together on this healing path.

Gonna get some labs out to look at.

BTW (by the way) potassium came back into normal ranges as stress eased

up.

kc in AZ

[Guest guest]

Hi again Kc in AZ ;o)

****BTW (by the way) potassium came back into normal ranges as stress

eased up.

This gives me hope. I did not feel particularly stressed at the time

when I had my blood taken, but perhaps my body was telling me

otherwise. I have just finished 6 months of weekly dental session

which started with getting rid of all my amalgam fillings and

escalated into a major overhaul.... I had just stoically resigned

myself to 'getting it over with' and had switched off to any

feelings of fear or feeling anything ... and had become a little

robot - so perhaps that was not helping

****Just trying to put pieces of the puzzle together on this healing

path.

You and me both ;o/ In the olden days we had doctors to do this

for us... now we have to work it out ourselves

all the best

[Guest guest]

Hi again Kc in AZ ;o)

****BTW (by the way) potassium came back into normal ranges as stress

eased up.

This gives me hope. I did not feel particularly stressed at the time

when I had my blood taken, but perhaps my body was telling me

otherwise. I have just finished 6 months of weekly dental session

which started with getting rid of all my amalgam fillings and

escalated into a major overhaul.... I had just stoically resigned

myself to 'getting it over with' and had switched off to any

feelings of fear or feeling anything ... and had become a little

robot - so perhaps that was not helping

****Just trying to put pieces of the puzzle together on this healing

path.

You and me both ;o/ In the olden days we had doctors to do this

for us... now we have to work it out ourselves

all the best

[Guest guest]

Hi again Kc in AZ ;o)

****BTW (by the way) potassium came back into normal ranges as stress

eased up.

This gives me hope. I did not feel particularly stressed at the time

when I had my blood taken, but perhaps my body was telling me

otherwise. I have just finished 6 months of weekly dental session

which started with getting rid of all my amalgam fillings and

escalated into a major overhaul.... I had just stoically resigned

myself to 'getting it over with' and had switched off to any

feelings of fear or feeling anything ... and had become a little

robot - so perhaps that was not helping

****Just trying to put pieces of the puzzle together on this healing

path.

You and me both ;o/ In the olden days we had doctors to do this

for us... now we have to work it out ourselves

all the best

[Guest guest]

Wow, This was really eye opening to me.

In January, I had blood work done and my results of my salt panel were not even

mentioned to me although they were flagged on my bloodwork report.

My sodium was 139 (range 136-147)

Potassium 3.4 (range 3.5-5.3) LOW

Carbon Dioxide 19 (range 20-29) LOW

Calcium 7.9 (range 8.4-10.6) LOW

So then my ratio would be: 40.88 ?

I also tested saliva and a def have LOW cortisol, so what would you interpret

with the above results?

I just have no clue how to balance this cause I know that salts have to be taken

in balance and I worry just taking sea salt with drop my potassium even more!

Also, the low CO2 reading is really scary to me. Acidosis is what I am reading

online and that is apparently the beginning of the end...

Help!

Re: Na:K

Hello Kc in AZ,

I am sorry, I really should know better than post abbreviations....

ok - here's a short explanation.

Na = stands for natrium or sodium - or simply salt ... a " healthy "

sodium reading would be just about in the middle of the given norm

range. Norm readings vary from lab to lab, but usually range from

around 138 - 150something. A " good " reading would be somewhere in the

middle.

K = stands for kalium or potassium. A " healthy " potassium reading is

not necessarily one that is within the given lab norm range. If it

were at either end of the range, it might need investigation (IMO

anyway). An " optimal " potassium reading would be between 4 and 4.5

(although again, you get slight variations within the lab norm

ranges).

You can work out the Na:K ratio by dividing the Na (higher figure) by

the K (smaller one).... for example - my own readings were Na 142,

Potassium 5.8 ...... so 142 : 5.8 = 24.48 - therefore 24.48 is

my Na:K ratio.

A " healthy " Na:K ratio should be in the low to mid thirties. A ratio

below 30 should raise an eyebrow and a ratio below 27 is considered

positively too low. As I understand it, the ratio is not the " be all

and end all " , you always have to look at the actual figures and

clinical picture too, but it is a pretty good indication that all is

not well in the adrenal department when a ratio falls below the magic

figure of 27.... - Low sodium and high potassium can be indicators

for 's disease ... hence my question.

Hope I haven't muddied the waters further ;o)

Best wishes,

[Guest guest]

>>My sodium was 139 (range 136-147)

Potassium 3.4 (range 3.5-5.3) LOW<<

Actually sea salt will help this (potassium) come up as well. When the body has

lo3 dsodium as yours does, the balance is SO critical that it will start losing

potassium to keep that balance, then as you slowly bring th spdium up it will

hole on to potassium to keep the balance.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Can you give me a reference for this, as I would like to share this info with

my doc.

Thank you,

Dahlia

>A " healthy " Na:K ratio should be in the low to mid thirties. A ratio

below 30 should raise an eyebrow and a ratio below 27 is considered

positively too low. As I understand it, the ratio is not the " be all

and end all " , you always have to look at the actual figures and

clinical picture too, but it is a pretty good indication that all is

not well in the adrenal department when a ratio falls below the magic

figure of 27.... >

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

***Can you give me a reference for this, as I would like to share

this info with my doc.

Hello Daliah,

I better explain.... Over the past 12 years I have been caring for my

two dogs with autoimmune diseases, and I've gained a lot of inside by

reading and learning all I could about autoimmune conditions. Neither

of my own dogs suffer from 's, but I have learned a lot about

this condition in dogs from the experiences of others. As I

understand it, in dogs a Na:K ratio below 27 is in most cases

diagnostic for primary 's (but not for atypical or secondary

's), although it would be foolish not to back that diagnosis

up with an ACTH test. Dogs with 's are treated either with

oral Florinef or (mostly in the US) with injectable Percoten-V

(DOCP). Because of the different metabolism a dog has, much higher

dosages of Florinef are needed to stabilize the dog than would be

needed in humans (which horrifies many vets who haven't got

experience with treating AD). Florinef is a human drug, there hasn't

been one developed that is canine-specific.

What I do not know, is if the same conclusions can be drawn for

humans from a low Na:K ratio. Hence me joining this group and asking

about the significance of my own low ratio. In my own case only my

potassium is high, but the sodium seems 'normal' - but it still

results in a low ratio. From what Val is saying, this points more

into the direction of the pituitary gland.

But anyway, below are two canine websites. The first one is an easy

to understand, but 'non-professional' site, the second one is a

properly referenced veterinary site, and I have extracted below the

para that refers to the Na:K ratio.

http://www.vetstop.com.au:80/Info/infaddison.htm

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?

CID=WSAVA2003&PID=6584&O=Generic

.....The classic electrolyte pattern of primary hypoadrenocorticism

comprises hyponatraemia, hypochloraemia and hyperkalaemia. These

abnormalities primarily reflect aldosterone deficiency, with impaired

renal conservation of sodium (Na+) and excretion of potassium (K+)

ions and depletion of the extracellular fluid (ECF) volume5-6. The

normal serum sodium:potassium (Na+:K+) ratio in dogs and cats lies

between 27:1 and 40:16. A low ratio (below 27:1) can be a valuable

clue to the possibility of primary hypoadrenocorticism, especially if

the ratio is greatly diminished6,12. However, a low ratio is neither

pathognomonic of primary hypoadrenocorticism nor invariably present

in affected animals....

Best wishes,

[Guest guest]

Sorry Daliah,

I just tried to open that second link, and it denies access to non-

members.

I don't know if I were to break any copyrights or whatever if I copied

and pasted the whole article and obviously I don't want to get into

trouble. But at least you've got the para that refers to the Na:K

ratio - I hope this helps.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Great info! Good for you for your own researching! And thank you very much

for your helpful replies and for sharing some of your results.

>These

>abnormalities primarily reflect aldosterone deficiency, with impaired

>renal conservation of sodium (Na+) and excretion of potassium (K+)

>ions

I myself am curious b/c about 5 years ago, I had an rbc potassium level taken

and my doc said she was shocked that I was still alive, as the level was so low.

I'm not kidding or exaggerating, she really said that.

Serum K levels were normal.

I wonder if that fits the pattern above, ie excretion of K+?

Don't remember what sodium was. Doc had me do an adrenal saliva test in which

I came out 'normal', but as I posted these levels to Val some months ago, she

replied that I was on my way down (values were all bottom of the range) and if

not treated, would certainly have problems. She was right, and I've been

treating AF for over a year now, with good success.

Now that I know a little bit more about sodium/potassium and aldosterone (I

just started florinef about 14 days ago), I am wondering about that very low K

level. Would this alone have indicated serious adrenal issues? I know I've

always had low sodium, but no one ever flagged this to my attention before. Big

surprise, right?

Since that time, I've been supplementing with slo-K, which I take twice a

day. And now I am drinking at least 2 tsps salt every day. Just as an aside,

wondering if I should continue the slo-K, might be messing things up at this

point.

My last blood test (dec 2007) shows 34.62 ratio, going by your formula. Sodium

bottom of normal at 135, Potassium also low in normal range at 3.9.

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Great info! Good for you for your own researching! And thank you

very much for your helpful replies and for sharing some of your results.

>These

>abnormalities primarily reflect aldosterone deficiency, with impaired

>renal conservation of sodium (Na+) and excretion of potassium (K+)

>ions

I myself am curious b/c about 5 years ago, I had an rbc potassium level

taken and my doc said she was shocked that I was still alive, as the

level was so low. I'm not kidding or exaggerating, she really said

that.

Serum K levels were normal.

I wonder if that fits the pattern above, ie excretion of K+?

Don't remember what sodium was. Doc had me do an adrenal saliva test

in which I came out 'normal', but as I posted these levels to Val some

months ago, she replied that I was on my way down (values were all

bottom of the range) and if not treated, would certainly have

problems. She was right, and I've been treating AF for over a year

now, with good success.

Now that I know a little bit more about sodium/potassium and

aldosterone (I just started florinef about 14 days ago), I am wondering

about that very low K level. Would this alone have indicated serious

adrenal issues? I know I've always had low sodium, but no one ever

flagged this to my attention before. Big surprise, right?

Since that time, I've been supplementing with slo-K, which I take

twice a day. And now I am drinking at least 2 tsps salt every day.

Just as an aside, wondering if I should continue the slo-K, might be

messing things up at this point.

My last blood test (dec 2007) shows 34.62 ratio, going by your formula.

Sodium bottom of normal at 135, Potassium also low in normal range at

3.9.

Dahlia

>

>

> ***Can you give me a reference for this, as I would like to share

> this info with my doc.

>

>

> Hello Daliah,

>

> I better explain.... Over the past 12 years I have been caring for my

> two dogs with autoimmune diseases, and I've gained a lot of inside by

> reading and learning all I could about autoimmune conditions. >

> Best wishes,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

****I don't think I can help! I don't have a diagnosis, I'm just sort

of going by symptoms, temps, blood pressure, etc. etc.

Hi Dahlia - sorry, I misspelled your name before, my fingers seem

to have a mind of their own (

Just wanted to point out ..... I know from our addisonian dogs that

Florinef is used to lower their high potassium. As I understand it,

it also brings up the sodium, which is exactly why it is used in the

treatment for 's (high potassium + low sodium = primary

's).

An addisonian can't handle stress and may go into crisis when the

potassium gets too high, so levels are to be permanently kept in

check, and Florinef does that perfectly.

Since you have got low sodium AND low potassium, yet you take

Florinef, please be very careful and make sure you eat potassium rich

foods or do whatever else necessary to keep your potassium in the

region between 4.0 - 4.5. As one of your doctors had already pointed

out, low potassium can be just as dangerous as high potassium.

Take care,

[Guest guest]

Hi Dahlia,

Since I'm on Florinef, I've been able to stop my K+ pills. I was on 30meq a day

of Klor-Con 10M. Maybe you should get your levels checked to see if you still

need yours? I wouldn't stop it on a hunch, but with labs.

>>>Since that time, I've been supplementing with slo-K, which I take

twice a day. And now I am drinking at least 2 tsps salt every day.

Just as an aside, wondering if I should continue the slo-K, might be

messing things up at this point.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks! How long were you on Florinef and at what dose before you stopped

your slo-K? My dose is 8 meq twice a day. You're right, I should go by labs.

How was your low potassium discovered? Did you have symptoms? Thanks for the

good idea.

Dahlia

<

>

>>>Since that time, I've been supplementing with slo-K, which I take

twice a day. And now I am drinking at least 2 tsps salt every day.

Just as an aside, wondering if I should continue the slo-K, might be

messing things up at this point.

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi Dahlia,

Not very long, maybe a few days, so I was still on the 1/4 pill dose. I'm not

the best record keeper. I have a machine at home to test because of another

illness and my potassium has stayed consistently in the normal range without my

potassium pills for 3 weeks now.

>>> Thanks! How long were you on Florinef and at what dose before you stopped

your slo-K? My dose is 8 meq twice a day. You're right, I should go by labs.

How was your low potassium discovered? Did you have symptoms? Thanks for the

good idea.

[Guest guest]

Hi Dahlia,

Not very long, maybe a few days, so I was still on the 1/4 pill dose. I'm not

the best record keeper. I have a machine at home to test because of another

illness and my potassium has stayed consistently in the normal range without my

potassium pills for 3 weeks now.

>>> Thanks! How long were you on Florinef and at what dose before you stopped

your slo-K? My dose is 8 meq twice a day. You're right, I should go by labs.

How was your low potassium discovered? Did you have symptoms? Thanks for the

good idea.

[Guest guest]

Wow, , that's pretty impressive. I'm not getting labs until mid

march.Yesterday, I had feelings of restlessness and inability to relax which I

associate (for me) with low potassium, so for now I think I'll stay put. Also,

as I said before, my serum potassium was normal, it was the rbc that was in the

dirt. Yours?

Dahlia

>>> Thanks! How long were you on Florinef and at what dose before you stopped

your slo-K? My dose is 8 meq twice a day. You're right, I should go by labs. How

was your low potassium discovered? Did you have symptoms? Thanks for the good

idea

>>> Thanks! How long were you on Florinef and at what dose before you stopped

your slo-K? My dose is 8 meq twice a day. You're right, I should go by labs. How

was your low potassium discovered? Did you have symptoms? Thanks for the good

idea

Not very long, maybe a few days, so I was still on the 1/4 pill dose. I'm not

the best record keeper. I have a machine at home to test because of another

illness and my potassium has stayed consistently in the normal range without my

potassium pills for 3 weeks now.

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi dahlia,

Never had the RBC K+ or mag checked. I will ask for those next week when I see

my doctor. I suspect mine is OK because I don't have any symptoms of it being

low.

Re: Na:K

Wow, , that's pretty impressive. I'm not getting labs until mid

march.Yesterday, I had feelings of restlessness and inability to relax which I

associate (for me) with low potassium, so for now I think I'll stay put. Also,

as I said before, my serum potassium was normal, it was the rbc that was in the

dirt. Yours?

[Guest guest]

" GrammyDx2 " > wrote:

>Never had the RBC K+ or mag checked. I will ask for those next week when I

see my >doctor. I suspect mine is OK because I don't have any symptoms of it

being low.

>

The rbc mineral values are often quite different from the serum values. You

might find this useful info.

thanks again,

Dahlia

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

What kind of machine do you have that can test your potassium at home?

Re: Re: Na:K

Hi Dahlia,

Not very long, maybe a few days, so I was still on the 1/4 pill dose. I'm not

the best record keeper. I have a machine at home to test because of another

illness and my potassium has stayed consistently in the normal range without my

potassium pills for 3 weeks now.

>>> Thanks! How long were you on Florinef and at what dose before you stopped

your slo-K? My dose is 8 meq twice a day. You're right, I should go by labs. How

was your low potassium discovered? Did you have symptoms? Thanks for the good

idea.

[Guest guest]

GrammyDx2 wrote:

> Never had the RBC K+

What does RBC stand for? (all i can think of is red blood cells)

sol