Re: HC upper physiologic dose

[Guest guest]

Liz I thnk outright adrenal failure is easier to treat than what falls

generically in the clas as " adrenal Fatigue " . What I see here is

cortisol resistance, and poor digestion issues that must be overcome to

get enough cortils to the cells. There si SOME science on this but very

little and what has to be decided on is RESPONSE to treatment. Most

people on over 35mg already have poor to no adrenal response. Or

secondary where they have low ACTH and nothing is going to bring them

back from the dead. Then there are the ones that cannot digest properly

and 50%+ goes right on out the other end when oral meds are taken. The

truth is you HAVE to get enough cortils to utilize thyroid for adrnelas

to be ABLE to heal and tking less makes thyroid intolerable. I am not

hunting down studies, I do research eveyry day and there is little to be

had, particularly in normal life situations where peoole MUST go on

functioning. Most the studies I have seen are conducted form a hospital

bed where of course the cortisl neds are lowest as they aren;t DOING

anythign or no stresses. What we need is a constant monitoring system

that could be worn in our normal lives, but alas I doubt that is

forthcoming so we have to so wht works.

http://www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/adrenals.htm

*February 22, 2007

Question:* My doctor diagnosed low cortisol and has me taking 20 mg of

cortisol each day. I am concerned about taking too much, but she told me

that 20 mg is a safe dose. What are the symptoms of too much cortisol so

that I can watch for them? How much cortisol is too much?

*Dr. Lowe:* I have included below a list of the symptoms, signs, and

test results when patients have severe excess cortisol. Keep in mind

that factors other than excess cortisol can cause most of these

symptoms, signs, and test results. Because of this, just because you

have one or more of these features doesn?t necessarily mean you?re

taking too much cortisol.

Also bear in mind that what is too much cortisol for a patient is an

individual matter: What is too much for one patient may be too little

for another, and vice versa. Moreover, some patients? tissues are

partially resistant to cortisol, and they have to maintain a higher body

level of cortisol than others to be free from cortisol deficiency

symptoms and signs. Cortisol resistance is now a scientifically

established disorder, but I don?t believe researchers have established

the incidence in the population. If a patient suspects he has cortisol

resistance, it is crucial that he work with a doctor who is

knowledgeable about the disorder and experienced in working with

cortisol resistance patients.

My treatment team has worked with some patients who over medicated

themselves with cortisol. The patients developed the symptoms and signs

of cortisol excess only after several months of taking very large daily

doses?several times the 20 mg you?re taking.

As I said, though, how patients respond to different doses of cortisol

is an individual matter. Because of this, it?s hard to say what will be

excessive for any particular patient. However, it is important for

patients to stay within the range considered ?physiologic? rather than

?pharmacologic.?

?Pharmacologic? refers to the large doses of cortisol analogues (such as

prednisone) that doctors use?hopefully briefly?to suppress inflammation.

Pharmacologic doses are often used to treat conditions such as severe

acute asthma.

?Physiologic? refers to maintaining a body level of cortisol that the

adrenal cortices would maintain, were they capable of doing so. One aim,

then, of physiologic cortisol therapy is to give the patient just enough

cortisol to make up for what his adrenal cortices should be but aren?t

providing.

Because of individual variability, it?s best for each patient to work

with a knowledgeable doctor to decide what is for that patient a

physiologic dose. But I agree with your doctor: your dosage of 20 mg is

mostly likely well within the harmless physiologic range.

*Symptoms, Signs, and Test Results in Cortisol Excess*

O Weakness O Reduced resistance to infection

O Muscle wasting O Edema

O Poor wound healing O Easy bruising

O Obesity of the trunk of the body O Purple striae (stripes) on the

abdomen

O Fat pads above the collar bones O Fat collection at the junction of

the back of neck and upper back ( " buffalo hump " )

O Skin that is thin and atropic O Plethoric (overfull, turgid,

inflated) appearance

O Rounded " moon " face O High sodium & low potassium levels

O Psychological disturbance such as mood swings O Slender arms and

fingers and legs and toes

O Glucose intolerance O Excessive hair growth (hirshutism)

O Kidney stones O Menstrual irregularities such as amenorrhoea (absence

of periods)

O Osteoporosis O High blood pressure

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

[Guest guest]

I don't have any solid science for you, but I am on HC under a doctor's

prescription, and

it's for what he calls " lazy " adrenals. My adrenals had a very weak response to

two ACTH

tests, so he put me on HC, and my dosage right now is 25mg, which he has told me

is

" perfectly safe, it's a replacement dose " .

Carol

>

> In doing various research and talking to others, i'm getting mixed

> info about HC doses. Here you seem to indicate it's ok to go up even

> to 40 or 45mg for SOME people. But other people say that 20 mg is the

> upper limit of what you give someone with outright adrenal failure

> ('s), other wise you risk atrophying the adrenals. Can someone

> lead me to some solid science (not just anecdotal stories, although

> they have their place) regarding the justification for going higher

> that 20mg in a person without adrenal failure?

>

> thanks,

> Liz

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Val,

Thanks for posting that information from Lowe. I always find

him to be so full of native common sense and I always appreciate his

vast clinical experience. Thank you for posting this.

Dahlia

>

> Liz I thnk outright adrenal failure is easier to treat than what

falls

> generically in the clas as " adrenal Fatigue " . What I see here is

> cortisol resistance, and poor digestion issues that must be

overcome to

> get enough cortils to the cells. There si SOME science on this but

very

> little and what has to be decided on is RESPONSE to treatment. Most

> people on over 35mg already have poor to no adrenal response. Or

> secondary where they have low ACTH and nothing is going to bring

them

> back from the dead. Then there are the ones that cannot digest

properly

> and 50%+ goes right on out the other end when oral meds are taken.

The

> truth is you HAVE to get enough cortils to utilize thyroid for

adrnelas

> to be ABLE to heal and tking less makes thyroid intolerable. I am

not

> hunting down studies, I do research eveyry day and there is little

to be

> had, particularly in normal life situations where peoole MUST go on

> functioning. Most the studies I have seen are conducted form a

hospital

> bed where of course the cortisl neds are lowest as they aren;t

DOING

> anythign or no stresses. What we need is a constant monitoring

system

> that could be worn in our normal lives, but alas I doubt that is

> forthcoming so we have to so wht works.

>

> http://www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/adrenals.htm

>

> *February 22, 2007

> Question:* My doctor diagnosed low cortisol and has me taking 20 mg

of

> cortisol each day. I am concerned about taking too much, but she

told me

> that 20 mg is a safe dose. What are the symptoms of too much

cortisol so

> that I can watch for them? How much cortisol is too much?

>

> *Dr. Lowe:* I have included below a list of the symptoms, signs,

and

> test results when patients have severe excess cortisol. Keep in

mind

> that factors other than excess cortisol can cause most of these

> symptoms, signs, and test results. Because of this, just because

you

> have one or more of these features doesn?t necessarily mean you?re

> taking too much cortisol.

>

> Also bear in mind that what is too much cortisol for a patient is

an

> individual matter: What is too much for one patient may be too

little

> for another, and vice versa. Moreover, some patients? tissues are

> partially resistant to cortisol, and they have to maintain a higher

body

> level of cortisol than others to be free from cortisol deficiency

> symptoms and signs. Cortisol resistance is now a scientifically

> established disorder, but I don?t believe researchers have

established

> the incidence in the population. If a patient suspects he has

cortisol

> resistance, it is crucial that he work with a doctor who is

> knowledgeable about the disorder and experienced in working with

> cortisol resistance patients.

>

> My treatment team has worked with some patients who over medicated

> themselves with cortisol. The patients developed the symptoms and

signs

> of cortisol excess only after several months of taking very large

daily

> doses?several times the 20 mg you?re taking.

>

> As I said, though, how patients respond to different doses of

cortisol

> is an individual matter. Because of this, it?s hard to say what

will be

> excessive for any particular patient. However, it is important for

> patients to stay within the range considered ?physiologic? rather

than

> ?pharmacologic.?

>

> ?Pharmacologic? refers to the large doses of cortisol analogues

(such as

> prednisone) that doctors use?hopefully briefly?to suppress

inflammation.

> Pharmacologic doses are often used to treat conditions such as

severe

> acute asthma.

>

> ?Physiologic? refers to maintaining a body level of cortisol that

the

> adrenal cortices would maintain, were they capable of doing so. One

aim,

> then, of physiologic cortisol therapy is to give the patient just

enough

> cortisol to make up for what his adrenal cortices should be but

aren?t

> providing.

>

> Because of individual variability, it?s best for each patient to

work

> with a knowledgeable doctor to decide what is for that patient a

> physiologic dose. But I agree with your doctor: your dosage of 20

mg is

> mostly likely well within the harmless physiologic range.

>

> *Symptoms, Signs, and Test Results in Cortisol Excess*

> O Weakness O Reduced resistance to infection

> O Muscle wasting O Edema

> O Poor wound healing O Easy bruising

> O Obesity of the trunk of the body O Purple striae (stripes) on

the

> abdomen

> O Fat pads above the collar bones O Fat collection at the

junction of

> the back of neck and upper back ( " buffalo hump " )

> O Skin that is thin and atropic O Plethoric (overfull,

turgid,

> inflated) appearance

> O Rounded " moon " face O High sodium & low potassium levels

> O Psychological disturbance such as mood swings O Slender

arms and

> fingers and legs and toes

> O Glucose intolerance O Excessive hair growth (hirshutism)

> O Kidney stones O Menstrual irregularities such as

amenorrhoea (absence

> of periods)

> O Osteoporosis O High blood pressure

>

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Val. The idea of cortisol resistance is interesting, I hadn't

heard of that before so i'll have to look into it. Being celiac, the

digestion problem makes sense. It still seems to me to be risky for

people, without the benefit of science or of being able to really

know what's going on inside their bodies, to take over 30mg HC if

20mg is considered total replacement for people with

's...maybe the resistance is going on, but maybe it isn't...I

guess i'm just really worried about not being able to ever stop

taking Cortef if I am doing total replacement instead of just helping

them along, ya know? ARe there any studies showing that you should

keep increasing until temps stabilize?

I'm thinking that maybe I should try to taper down from 25 mg to

about 17.5, and at the same time increase the adrenal support

supplements etc.

anyway, thanks for the info!

Liz

>

> Liz I thnk outright adrenal failure is easier to treat than what

falls

> generically in the clas as " adrenal Fatigue " . What I see here is

> cortisol resistance, and poor digestion issues that must be

overcome to

> get enough cortils to the cells. There si SOME science on this but

very

> little and what has to be decided on is RESPONSE to treatment. Most

> people on over 35mg already have poor to no adrenal response. Or

> secondary where they have low ACTH and nothing is going to bring

them

> back from the dead. Then there are the ones that cannot digest

properly

> and 50%+ goes right on out the other end when oral meds are taken.

The

> truth is you HAVE to get enough cortils to utilize thyroid for

adrnelas

> to be ABLE to heal and tking less makes thyroid intolerable. I am

not

> hunting down studies, I do research eveyry day and there is little

to be

> had, particularly in normal life situations where peoole MUST go on

> functioning. Most the studies I have seen are conducted form a

hospital

> bed where of course the cortisl neds are lowest as they aren;t

DOING

> anythign or no stresses. What we need is a constant monitoring

system

> that could be worn in our normal lives, but alas I doubt that is

> forthcoming so we have to so wht works.

>

> http://www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/adrenals.htm

>

> *February 22, 2007

> Question:* My doctor diagnosed low cortisol and has me taking 20 mg

of

> cortisol each day. I am concerned about taking too much, but she

told me

> that 20 mg is a safe dose. What are the symptoms of too much

cortisol so

> that I can watch for them? How much cortisol is too much?

>

> *Dr. Lowe:* I have included below a list of the symptoms, signs,

and

> test results when patients have severe excess cortisol. Keep in

mind

> that factors other than excess cortisol can cause most of these

> symptoms, signs, and test results. Because of this, just because

you

> have one or more of these features doesn?t necessarily mean you?re

> taking too much cortisol.

>

> Also bear in mind that what is too much cortisol for a patient is

an

> individual matter: What is too much for one patient may be too

little

> for another, and vice versa. Moreover, some patients? tissues are

> partially resistant to cortisol, and they have to maintain a higher

body

> level of cortisol than others to be free from cortisol deficiency

> symptoms and signs. Cortisol resistance is now a scientifically

> established disorder, but I don?t believe researchers have

established

> the incidence in the population. If a patient suspects he has

cortisol

> resistance, it is crucial that he work with a doctor who is

> knowledgeable about the disorder and experienced in working with

> cortisol resistance patients.

>

> My treatment team has worked with some patients who over medicated

> themselves with cortisol. The patients developed the symptoms and

signs

> of cortisol excess only after several months of taking very large

daily

> doses?several times the 20 mg you?re taking.

>

> As I said, though, how patients respond to different doses of

cortisol

> is an individual matter. Because of this, it?s hard to say what

will be

> excessive for any particular patient. However, it is important for

> patients to stay within the range considered ?physiologic? rather

than

> ?pharmacologic.?

>

> ?Pharmacologic? refers to the large doses of cortisol analogues

(such as

> prednisone) that doctors use?hopefully briefly?to suppress

inflammation.

> Pharmacologic doses are often used to treat conditions such as

severe

> acute asthma.

>

> ?Physiologic? refers to maintaining a body level of cortisol that

the

> adrenal cortices would maintain, were they capable of doing so. One

aim,

> then, of physiologic cortisol therapy is to give the patient just

enough

> cortisol to make up for what his adrenal cortices should be but

aren?t

> providing.

>

> Because of individual variability, it?s best for each patient to

work

> with a knowledgeable doctor to decide what is for that patient a

> physiologic dose. But I agree with your doctor: your dosage of 20

mg is

> mostly likely well within the harmless physiologic range.

>

> *Symptoms, Signs, and Test Results in Cortisol Excess*

> O Weakness O Reduced resistance to infection

> O Muscle wasting O Edema

> O Poor wound healing O Easy bruising

> O Obesity of the trunk of the body O Purple striae (stripes) on

the

> abdomen

> O Fat pads above the collar bones O Fat collection at the

junction of

> the back of neck and upper back ( " buffalo hump " )

> O Skin that is thin and atropic O Plethoric (overfull,

turgid,

> inflated) appearance

> O Rounded " moon " face O High sodium & low potassium levels

> O Psychological disturbance such as mood swings O Slender

arms and

> fingers and legs and toes

> O Glucose intolerance O Excessive hair growth (hirshutism)

> O Kidney stones O Menstrual irregularities such as

amenorrhoea (absence

> of periods)

> O Osteoporosis O High blood pressure

>

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Val. The idea of cortisol resistance is interesting, I hadn't

heard of that before so i'll have to look into it. Being celiac, the

digestion problem makes sense. It still seems to me to be risky for

people, without the benefit of science or of being able to really

know what's going on inside their bodies, to take over 30mg HC if

20mg is considered total replacement for people with

's...maybe the resistance is going on, but maybe it isn't...I

guess i'm just really worried about not being able to ever stop

taking Cortef if I am doing total replacement instead of just helping

them along, ya know? ARe there any studies showing that you should

keep increasing until temps stabilize?

I'm thinking that maybe I should try to taper down from 25 mg to

about 17.5, and at the same time increase the adrenal support

supplements etc.

anyway, thanks for the info!

Liz

>

> Liz I thnk outright adrenal failure is easier to treat than what

falls

> generically in the clas as " adrenal Fatigue " . What I see here is

> cortisol resistance, and poor digestion issues that must be

overcome to

> get enough cortils to the cells. There si SOME science on this but

very

> little and what has to be decided on is RESPONSE to treatment. Most

> people on over 35mg already have poor to no adrenal response. Or

> secondary where they have low ACTH and nothing is going to bring

them

> back from the dead. Then there are the ones that cannot digest

properly

> and 50%+ goes right on out the other end when oral meds are taken.

The

> truth is you HAVE to get enough cortils to utilize thyroid for

adrnelas

> to be ABLE to heal and tking less makes thyroid intolerable. I am

not

> hunting down studies, I do research eveyry day and there is little

to be

> had, particularly in normal life situations where peoole MUST go on

> functioning. Most the studies I have seen are conducted form a

hospital

> bed where of course the cortisl neds are lowest as they aren;t

DOING

> anythign or no stresses. What we need is a constant monitoring

system

> that could be worn in our normal lives, but alas I doubt that is

> forthcoming so we have to so wht works.

>

> http://www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/adrenals.htm

>

> *February 22, 2007

> Question:* My doctor diagnosed low cortisol and has me taking 20 mg

of

> cortisol each day. I am concerned about taking too much, but she

told me

> that 20 mg is a safe dose. What are the symptoms of too much

cortisol so

> that I can watch for them? How much cortisol is too much?

>

> *Dr. Lowe:* I have included below a list of the symptoms, signs,

and

> test results when patients have severe excess cortisol. Keep in

mind

> that factors other than excess cortisol can cause most of these

> symptoms, signs, and test results. Because of this, just because

you

> have one or more of these features doesn?t necessarily mean you?re

> taking too much cortisol.

>

> Also bear in mind that what is too much cortisol for a patient is

an

> individual matter: What is too much for one patient may be too

little

> for another, and vice versa. Moreover, some patients? tissues are

> partially resistant to cortisol, and they have to maintain a higher

body

> level of cortisol than others to be free from cortisol deficiency

> symptoms and signs. Cortisol resistance is now a scientifically

> established disorder, but I don?t believe researchers have

established

> the incidence in the population. If a patient suspects he has

cortisol

> resistance, it is crucial that he work with a doctor who is

> knowledgeable about the disorder and experienced in working with

> cortisol resistance patients.

>

> My treatment team has worked with some patients who over medicated

> themselves with cortisol. The patients developed the symptoms and

signs

> of cortisol excess only after several months of taking very large

daily

> doses?several times the 20 mg you?re taking.

>

> As I said, though, how patients respond to different doses of

cortisol

> is an individual matter. Because of this, it?s hard to say what

will be

> excessive for any particular patient. However, it is important for

> patients to stay within the range considered ?physiologic? rather

than

> ?pharmacologic.?

>

> ?Pharmacologic? refers to the large doses of cortisol analogues

(such as

> prednisone) that doctors use?hopefully briefly?to suppress

inflammation.

> Pharmacologic doses are often used to treat conditions such as

severe

> acute asthma.

>

> ?Physiologic? refers to maintaining a body level of cortisol that

the

> adrenal cortices would maintain, were they capable of doing so. One

aim,

> then, of physiologic cortisol therapy is to give the patient just

enough

> cortisol to make up for what his adrenal cortices should be but

aren?t

> providing.

>

> Because of individual variability, it?s best for each patient to

work

> with a knowledgeable doctor to decide what is for that patient a

> physiologic dose. But I agree with your doctor: your dosage of 20

mg is

> mostly likely well within the harmless physiologic range.

>

> *Symptoms, Signs, and Test Results in Cortisol Excess*

> O Weakness O Reduced resistance to infection

> O Muscle wasting O Edema

> O Poor wound healing O Easy bruising

> O Obesity of the trunk of the body O Purple striae (stripes) on

the

> abdomen

> O Fat pads above the collar bones O Fat collection at the

junction of

> the back of neck and upper back ( " buffalo hump " )

> O Skin that is thin and atropic O Plethoric (overfull,

turgid,

> inflated) appearance

> O Rounded " moon " face O High sodium & low potassium levels

> O Psychological disturbance such as mood swings O Slender

arms and

> fingers and legs and toes

> O Glucose intolerance O Excessive hair growth (hirshutism)

> O Kidney stones O Menstrual irregularities such as

amenorrhoea (absence

> of periods)

> O Osteoporosis O High blood pressure

>

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Val. The idea of cortisol resistance is interesting, I hadn't

heard of that before so i'll have to look into it. Being celiac, the

digestion problem makes sense. It still seems to me to be risky for

people, without the benefit of science or of being able to really

know what's going on inside their bodies, to take over 30mg HC if

20mg is considered total replacement for people with

's...maybe the resistance is going on, but maybe it isn't...I

guess i'm just really worried about not being able to ever stop

taking Cortef if I am doing total replacement instead of just helping

them along, ya know? ARe there any studies showing that you should

keep increasing until temps stabilize?

I'm thinking that maybe I should try to taper down from 25 mg to

about 17.5, and at the same time increase the adrenal support

supplements etc.

anyway, thanks for the info!

Liz

>

> Liz I thnk outright adrenal failure is easier to treat than what

falls

> generically in the clas as " adrenal Fatigue " . What I see here is

> cortisol resistance, and poor digestion issues that must be

overcome to

> get enough cortils to the cells. There si SOME science on this but

very

> little and what has to be decided on is RESPONSE to treatment. Most

> people on over 35mg already have poor to no adrenal response. Or

> secondary where they have low ACTH and nothing is going to bring

them

> back from the dead. Then there are the ones that cannot digest

properly

> and 50%+ goes right on out the other end when oral meds are taken.

The

> truth is you HAVE to get enough cortils to utilize thyroid for

adrnelas

> to be ABLE to heal and tking less makes thyroid intolerable. I am

not

> hunting down studies, I do research eveyry day and there is little

to be

> had, particularly in normal life situations where peoole MUST go on

> functioning. Most the studies I have seen are conducted form a

hospital

> bed where of course the cortisl neds are lowest as they aren;t

DOING

> anythign or no stresses. What we need is a constant monitoring

system

> that could be worn in our normal lives, but alas I doubt that is

> forthcoming so we have to so wht works.

>

> http://www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/adrenals.htm

>

> *February 22, 2007

> Question:* My doctor diagnosed low cortisol and has me taking 20 mg

of

> cortisol each day. I am concerned about taking too much, but she

told me

> that 20 mg is a safe dose. What are the symptoms of too much

cortisol so

> that I can watch for them? How much cortisol is too much?

>

> *Dr. Lowe:* I have included below a list of the symptoms, signs,

and

> test results when patients have severe excess cortisol. Keep in

mind

> that factors other than excess cortisol can cause most of these

> symptoms, signs, and test results. Because of this, just because

you

> have one or more of these features doesn?t necessarily mean you?re

> taking too much cortisol.

>

> Also bear in mind that what is too much cortisol for a patient is

an

> individual matter: What is too much for one patient may be too

little

> for another, and vice versa. Moreover, some patients? tissues are

> partially resistant to cortisol, and they have to maintain a higher

body

> level of cortisol than others to be free from cortisol deficiency

> symptoms and signs. Cortisol resistance is now a scientifically

> established disorder, but I don?t believe researchers have

established

> the incidence in the population. If a patient suspects he has

cortisol

> resistance, it is crucial that he work with a doctor who is

> knowledgeable about the disorder and experienced in working with

> cortisol resistance patients.

>

> My treatment team has worked with some patients who over medicated

> themselves with cortisol. The patients developed the symptoms and

signs

> of cortisol excess only after several months of taking very large

daily

> doses?several times the 20 mg you?re taking.

>

> As I said, though, how patients respond to different doses of

cortisol

> is an individual matter. Because of this, it?s hard to say what

will be

> excessive for any particular patient. However, it is important for

> patients to stay within the range considered ?physiologic? rather

than

> ?pharmacologic.?

>

> ?Pharmacologic? refers to the large doses of cortisol analogues

(such as

> prednisone) that doctors use?hopefully briefly?to suppress

inflammation.

> Pharmacologic doses are often used to treat conditions such as

severe

> acute asthma.

>

> ?Physiologic? refers to maintaining a body level of cortisol that

the

> adrenal cortices would maintain, were they capable of doing so. One

aim,

> then, of physiologic cortisol therapy is to give the patient just

enough

> cortisol to make up for what his adrenal cortices should be but

aren?t

> providing.

>

> Because of individual variability, it?s best for each patient to

work

> with a knowledgeable doctor to decide what is for that patient a

> physiologic dose. But I agree with your doctor: your dosage of 20

mg is

> mostly likely well within the harmless physiologic range.

>

> *Symptoms, Signs, and Test Results in Cortisol Excess*

> O Weakness O Reduced resistance to infection

> O Muscle wasting O Edema

> O Poor wound healing O Easy bruising

> O Obesity of the trunk of the body O Purple striae (stripes) on

the

> abdomen

> O Fat pads above the collar bones O Fat collection at the

junction of

> the back of neck and upper back ( " buffalo hump " )

> O Skin that is thin and atropic O Plethoric (overfull,

turgid,

> inflated) appearance

> O Rounded " moon " face O High sodium & low potassium levels

> O Psychological disturbance such as mood swings O Slender

arms and

> fingers and legs and toes

> O Glucose intolerance O Excessive hair growth (hirshutism)

> O Kidney stones O Menstrual irregularities such as

amenorrhoea (absence

> of periods)

> O Osteoporosis O High blood pressure

>

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

No studies except this board and Stop the Thyroid Madness forusm which

between the two comprises several years. The thing is the adrenals have

to be supported WELL to tolerate thyroid enough ot get UNHYPO and unhypo

is what you have to attain to heal the adrenals other wise the adrenals

simply get worse again and again. I have twice weaned off HC and crashed

my adrenals as I went hypo at the same time. Now trying a MUCH slower

ramoing down wiht holding the thyroid at a higher dose I also seem to

need and it seems ot be going much better this way butI have doubts I

will ever come off HC completely. And I really don;t worry abotu that

either as I have to be on thyroid the rest of my life, what;s another

hormone and a cheap one at that? I wish insulin were this cheap! LOL

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

[Guest guest]

No studies except this board and Stop the Thyroid Madness forusm which

between the two comprises several years. The thing is the adrenals have

to be supported WELL to tolerate thyroid enough ot get UNHYPO and unhypo

is what you have to attain to heal the adrenals other wise the adrenals

simply get worse again and again. I have twice weaned off HC and crashed

my adrenals as I went hypo at the same time. Now trying a MUCH slower

ramoing down wiht holding the thyroid at a higher dose I also seem to

need and it seems ot be going much better this way butI have doubts I

will ever come off HC completely. And I really don;t worry abotu that

either as I have to be on thyroid the rest of my life, what;s another

hormone and a cheap one at that? I wish insulin were this cheap! LOL

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

[Guest guest]

No studies except this board and Stop the Thyroid Madness forusm which

between the two comprises several years. The thing is the adrenals have

to be supported WELL to tolerate thyroid enough ot get UNHYPO and unhypo

is what you have to attain to heal the adrenals other wise the adrenals

simply get worse again and again. I have twice weaned off HC and crashed

my adrenals as I went hypo at the same time. Now trying a MUCH slower

ramoing down wiht holding the thyroid at a higher dose I also seem to

need and it seems ot be going much better this way butI have doubts I

will ever come off HC completely. And I really don;t worry abotu that

either as I have to be on thyroid the rest of my life, what;s another

hormone and a cheap one at that? I wish insulin were this cheap! LOL

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

[Guest guest]

Do you have a good doctor to help you with this? I love my doctor

(MD, holistic), but he's just not that well versed in adrenal issues,

and I don't have time right now to study it all enough myself to

feel like I can put it all together. Is there anything online to

help people find knowledgable doctors/endocrinologists in their

area? I don't like the feeling that i'm just guessing half the time

or doing things others do from advice on this forum when everyone is

so different and there's literally no science (well, of course there

is some) backing up what people are doing so long-term consequences

are unknown. It's very frustrating, and i'm sure others feel the

same and that's just the way it is until more physicians and

scientists start looking into these issues more closely...

Liz

>

> No studies except this board and Stop the Thyroid Madness forusm

which

> between the two comprises several years. The thing is the adrenals

have

> to be supported WELL to tolerate thyroid enough ot get UNHYPO and

unhypo

> is what you have to attain to heal the adrenals other wise the

adrenals

> simply get worse again and again. I have twice weaned off HC and

crashed

> my adrenals as I went hypo at the same time. Now trying a MUCH

slower

> ramoing down wiht holding the thyroid at a higher dose I also seem

to

> need and it seems ot be going much better this way butI have doubts

I

> will ever come off HC completely. And I really don;t worry abotu

that

> either as I have to be on thyroid the rest of my life, what;s

another

> hormone and a cheap one at that? I wish insulin were this cheap! LOL

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

[Guest guest]

Hi. There is a relatively long-term study of HC effects done by Dr

Jeffries in his book _Safe Uses of Cortisol_.

I am thankful for this topic as I have been having problems with my HC

dose and cannot seem to get away with less than 45 mg HC and even at

that am still having symptoms (dizzy, shaky, etc.). Val mentioned a

supplement to me to help with cortisol resistance: phosphatidyl serine

(I hope I spelled that right). But I have not managed to get any yet.

I also suspect celiac in my case and have been avoiding gluten.

I am also in the process of switching over to all Cytomel from Thyroid

-S to see if that will help with my issues.

Theda

[Guest guest]

If you have celiac you may have malabsorption from the villi being

flattened in the intestines. If you go gluten free, after a while of

healing you might be able to lower the HC if more is being absorbed.

Another thing i'm just learning about is low stomach acid or

hypochloridia. Alot of people have this, even those who supposedly

need to take antacids for GERD etc, actually have LOW stomach acid

and if they supplement with betaine HCL for a while, it solves the

problem. Also lots of people with celiac have it, and about 60% of

those over 50 I think. You can test it by getting some betaine HCL

(hydrochloric acid), take one pill 10 min. before a meal...if you

notice the acid, you're fine. If not, next meal try 2. If still

nothing, try 3. If you can take 3 with no reaction, you have low

stomach acid. I'll try to find a link to post on this topic soon

because I think it could help alot of people on this forum--low

stomach acid will also inhibit absorption of thyroid medication.

Liz

>

> Hi. There is a relatively long-term study of HC effects done by Dr

> Jeffries in his book _Safe Uses of Cortisol_.

> I am thankful for this topic as I have been having problems with my

HC

> dose and cannot seem to get away with less than 45 mg HC and even at

> that am still having symptoms (dizzy, shaky, etc.). Val mentioned a

> supplement to me to help with cortisol resistance: phosphatidyl

serine

> (I hope I spelled that right). But I have not managed to get any yet.

> I also suspect celiac in my case and have been avoiding gluten.

> I am also in the process of switching over to all Cytomel from

Thyroid

> -S to see if that will help with my issues.

> Theda

>

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry this is only an anecdote, but I was taking 25mg of HC and not feeling

like I was

geting enough, then I added betaine HCL before meals (hydrochloric acid to boost

digestion) and everything changed dramatically within 24 hours -- my cortisol

symptoms

improved and I had pretty big thyroid dump. I don't really believe hydrochloric

acid has

those effects -- but if if helped me absorb HC better, that makes sense. To me

this

suggests that absorbption IS a big problem in cortisol dosing.

Lia

> >

> > In doing various research and talking to others, i'm getting mixed

> > info about HC doses. Here you seem to indicate it's ok to go up even

> > to 40 or 45mg for SOME people. But other people say that 20 mg is the

> > upper limit of what you give someone with outright adrenal failure

> > ('s), other wise you risk atrophying the adrenals. Can someone

> > lead me to some solid science (not just anecdotal stories, although

> > they have their place) regarding the justification for going higher

> > that 20mg in a person without adrenal failure?

> >

> > thanks,

> > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks a bunch! I will try the betaine! I think I might have some in

the cupboard...

:0 Theda

[Guest guest]

Liz, have you considered a steroid that doesn't metabolize as quickly

or florinef?

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/faq/

" 46) The HC doesn’t seem to last long enough - what is Medrol? Dr

Peatfield says that HC is “not stored by the body and gets rapidly

used; 2 or 3 hours will see it pretty well used up completely.†Some

people metabolize HC faster than others. If a person has symptoms of

low cortisol despite gradually working up to about 30mg of HC, they

may want to talk with their doctor about trying Medrol. Depending on

the persons metabolism, the 1/2 life of Medrol can range from 18 to 36

hours.

49) Are there other adrenal hormones that I need to worry about? Dr

Lam says “As adrenal fatigue progresses to more advance stages, the

amount of aldosterone production reduces. Sodium and water retention

is compromised.. As the fluid volume is reduced, low blood pressure

ensues. Cells get dehydrated and become sodium deficient.â€

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/adrenal_fatigue.cfm

Although the adrenals make more hormones than just cortisol and

aldosterone, persons with severe adrenal insufficiency usually take

simply cortisone, and if needed, supplement aldosterone with Florinef.

Further information about aldosterone can be found here

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=8562

"

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/aldosterone/

" Another clue that your aldosterone may be too low is being on high

amounts of HC, such as 30-40 mg, and not getting good results. "

Tasia

>

> Thanks Val. The idea of cortisol resistance is interesting, I hadn't

> heard of that before so i'll have to look into it. Being celiac, the

> digestion problem makes sense. It still seems to me to be risky for

> people, without the benefit of science or of being able to really

> know what's going on inside their bodies, to take over 30mg HC if

> 20mg is considered total replacement for people with

> 's...maybe the resistance is going on, but maybe it isn't...I

> guess i'm just really worried about not being able to ever stop

> taking Cortef if I am doing total replacement instead of just helping

> them along, ya know? ARe there any studies showing that you should

> keep increasing until temps stabilize?

>

> I'm thinking that maybe I should try to taper down from 25 mg to

> about 17.5, and at the same time increase the adrenal support

> supplements etc.

>

> anyway, thanks for the info!

> Liz

>

[Guest guest]

I think that for me, the cortef is working fine, I felt enormous

relief of all of my symptoms on 15 mg, then went up to 20 just cuz

that was my script. Then later after posting about low ferritin, Val

suggested I increase HC to 25 which I did. No difference noticed in

energy etc, but i've gained 5 pounds, so I think my body can do fine

on 20mg or perhaps even less. My dizziness upon standing up also

disappeared with the HC so maybe aldosterone is not a problem...but

i'd like to get it tested, my doc doesn't think it's a particulary

helpful test for some reason. I'll have to learn more about it in

order to be able to talk him into it.

thanks for the links, they are very informative!

Liz

> >

> > Thanks Val. The idea of cortisol resistance is interesting, I

hadn't

> > heard of that before so i'll have to look into it. Being celiac,

the

> > digestion problem makes sense. It still seems to me to be risky

for

> > people, without the benefit of science or of being able to really

> > know what's going on inside their bodies, to take over 30mg HC if

> > 20mg is considered total replacement for people with

> > 's...maybe the resistance is going on, but maybe it

isn't...I

> > guess i'm just really worried about not being able to ever stop

> > taking Cortef if I am doing total replacement instead of just

helping

> > them along, ya know? ARe there any studies showing that you

should

> > keep increasing until temps stabilize?

> >

> > I'm thinking that maybe I should try to taper down from 25 mg to

> > about 17.5, and at the same time increase the adrenal support

> > supplements etc.

> >

> > anyway, thanks for the info!

> > Liz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

What do you mean by 'noticing' the acid? How would you notice it?

Dahlia

You can test it by getting some betaine HCL

(hydrochloric acid), take one pill 10 min. before a meal...if you

notice the acid, you're fine.

>

[Guest guest]

As in getting some heartburn etc. When I did it, I didn't have any

physical response whatsoever.

>

> You can test it by getting some betaine HCL

> (hydrochloric acid), take one pill 10 min. before a meal...if you

> notice the acid, you're fine.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Liz,

I never have any symptomss either, no matter how much HCl I take, so

I stopped taking it. Do you take it? If so, how much?

Thanks,

Dahlia

> >

> > You can test it by getting some betaine HCL

> > (hydrochloric acid), take one pill 10 min. before a meal...if you

> > notice the acid, you're fine.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm currently taking a product made by Vital Nutrients that has:

Betaine HCL 520 mg (8 grains), Perpsin 21 mg (1:15000), Gentian Root

extract 50 mg 5:1 (equivalent to 250 mg of gentian root powder)

I take 3 after a large meal, 2 after a smaller meal, and maybe one

after a large snack. Some people may need to take many more,

depending on their system. If you don't have a response at all, then

your stomach acid is probably very low and will affect alot of

issues. If you have a good holistic doctor he might do a more

official test of gastric acidity using a " Heidelberg radiotelemetry

device " where you swallow this pill which has a pH meter and a

radiotransmitter and it prints out info on your acidity after taking

10ml of sodium bicarbonate.

Liz

> > >

> > > You can test it by getting some betaine HCL

> > > (hydrochloric acid), take one pill 10 min. before a meal...if

you

> > > notice the acid, you're fine.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz

Thanks for your reply.

I have that product from VN! Sure like their stuff, the company does

a lot of independent testing of their ingredients, think they're

great! But the enzymes you're referring to make my nose hurt, LOL,

when I take it more than a day or two in a row. My doc did offer to

do the Heidelberg test, but I declined...yuck! Maybe I'll do it next

time I see him, might be worth it. I just got an enzyme I'm liking

from Progressive Labs called Acida-zyme; it has hcl plus glutamic

acid, pepsin and protease. I think I do better with lower doses of

hcl, but I'm not sure.

Dahlia

> > > >

> > > > You can test it by getting some betaine HCL

> > > > (hydrochloric acid), take one pill 10 min. before a meal...if

> you

> > > > notice the acid, you're fine.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dahlia,

I wish my doctor had the Heidelberg test to do, I need to ask him

about it again. I don't think it's invasive or anything, you just

have to lie there for a couple hours which is not convenient!

I've only been taknig the HcL about a week or less, and i've noticed

my nose dripping, having to blow my nose constantly...do you think

that's from the HCL? I also last time I took it a couple days ago

thought I had a reaction that I get when I have casein (borderline

allergic/tight throat) so I was planning to call the company before I

take anymore. I do also really like the company though...third party

testing on all their products which is rare to find, and they also

make sure there are no yeasts molds etc. I haven't had any problem

with the other products I take of theirs.

So I may be looking for a different HCL! Anyway, I don't think you

should ignore the issue as it can really affect your health--there's

a good book called " Why Stomach Acid is Good For YOu " by

WRight which has alot more info on how to deal with the issue besides

HCL.

LIz

> > > > >

> > > > > You can test it by getting some betaine HCL

> > > > > (hydrochloric acid), take one pill 10 min. before a

meal...if

> > you

> > > > > notice the acid, you're fine.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dahlia,

I wish my doctor had the Heidelberg test to do, I need to ask him

about it again. I don't think it's invasive or anything, you just

have to lie there for a couple hours which is not convenient!

I've only been taknig the HcL about a week or less, and i've noticed

my nose dripping, having to blow my nose constantly...do you think

that's from the HCL? I also last time I took it a couple days ago

thought I had a reaction that I get when I have casein (borderline

allergic/tight throat) so I was planning to call the company before I

take anymore. I do also really like the company though...third party

testing on all their products which is rare to find, and they also

make sure there are no yeasts molds etc. I haven't had any problem

with the other products I take of theirs.

So I may be looking for a different HCL! Anyway, I don't think you

should ignore the issue as it can really affect your health--there's

a good book called " Why Stomach Acid is Good For YOu " by

WRight which has alot more info on how to deal with the issue besides

HCL.

LIz

> > > > >

> > > > > You can test it by getting some betaine HCL

> > > > > (hydrochloric acid), take one pill 10 min. before a

meal...if

> > you

> > > > > notice the acid, you're fine.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dahlia,

I wish my doctor had the Heidelberg test to do, I need to ask him

about it again. I don't think it's invasive or anything, you just

have to lie there for a couple hours which is not convenient!

I've only been taknig the HcL about a week or less, and i've noticed

my nose dripping, having to blow my nose constantly...do you think

that's from the HCL? I also last time I took it a couple days ago

thought I had a reaction that I get when I have casein (borderline

allergic/tight throat) so I was planning to call the company before I

take anymore. I do also really like the company though...third party

testing on all their products which is rare to find, and they also

make sure there are no yeasts molds etc. I haven't had any problem

with the other products I take of theirs.

So I may be looking for a different HCL! Anyway, I don't think you

should ignore the issue as it can really affect your health--there's

a good book called " Why Stomach Acid is Good For YOu " by

WRight which has alot more info on how to deal with the issue besides

HCL.

LIz

> > > > >

> > > > > You can test it by getting some betaine HCL

> > > > > (hydrochloric acid), take one pill 10 min. before a

meal...if

> > you

> > > > > notice the acid, you're fine.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

>

> Hi Dahlia,

>

> I wish my doctor had the Heidelberg test to do, I need to ask him

> about it again. I don't think it's invasive or anything, you just

> have to lie there for a couple hours which is not convenient!

I think it's a bit invasive as you have to swallow something with a

string attached to it and then they have to pull it back out. I

didn't know about the time factor, that's another reason (for me) not

to take this test!

>

> I've only been taknig the HcL about a week or less, and i've

noticed

> my nose dripping, having to blow my nose constantly...do you think

> that's from the HCL?

Yes, I do, that's part of what I get. I don't understand it, but it

leads me to have to stop taking it. I bought a much lower dose

hydrochloric acid supplement--it's 200 mg as opposed to 650, and I

don't get the nose reaction.

I also last time I took it a couple days ago

> thought I had a reaction that I get when I have casein (borderline

> allergic/tight throat) so I was planning to call the company before

I

> take anymore. I do also really like the company though...third

party

> testing on all their products which is rare to find, and they also

> make sure there are no yeasts molds etc. I haven't had any problem

> with the other products I take of theirs.

Me too! I take their stuff and am very happy with them as a company.

>

> So I may be looking for a different HCL! Anyway, I don't think you

> should ignore the issue as it can really affect your health--

there's

> a good book called " Why Stomach Acid is Good For YOu " by

> WRight which has alot more info on how to deal with the issue

besides

> HCL.

Thanks for the good advice, I agree with you. An old remedy of

course is apple cider vinegar with food for the acid.

>

> LIz

Dahlia

>

>