Re: Help - Severe ACE Reaction

March 30, 2008

Do you have anything ELSE you can take to replace cortils no matter how

weak>? would even suggest HC cream better than nothign but after this I

do not think you shoudl take it again.

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March 30, 2008

>

> Do you have anything ELSE you can take to replace cortils no matter how

> weak>? would even suggest HC cream better than nothign but after

this I

> do not think you shoudl take it again.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets

>

no, I don't tolerate HC in any form. I have some medrol, but i was

saving that for when my stomach gets better. i've been taking prilosec

OTC for a few days trying to fix the ulcers from taking medrol last

year (going off the medrol, that is, which seemed to cause it), so I

could start the medrol again.

the ACE was really stimming me neurologically. something in it does

that to me. last week i had some sort of opposite reaction, where I

suddenly got " hyper " feeling and my temp went up a little -- I just

thought the ACE was finally starting to work and my adrenals were

recovering. then a couple of days of that tapering off, and then this

kicked in.

what I would LIKE to do is not take any more ACE, try to recover from

this, resume the prilosec to heal the stomach, and then just go on the

medrol and get it over with. I just don't know if it's safe to go from

max. ACE drops to none. I think it should be, the reaction seems more

neuro/immune, like I said. But I don't want to risk it and really

crash twice as bad, either. Though I don't think I have twice as bad

to go before it would do me in! I just don't know what to think at

this point. I can't believe I would get worse like this from adrenal

cortex!

March 30, 2008

>

> neuro/immune, like I said. But I don't want to risk it and really

> crash twice as bad, either. Though I don't think I have twice as bad

> to go before it would do me in! I just don't know what to think at

> this point. I can't believe I would get worse like this from adrenal

> cortex!

>

I just ordered some nutricology adrenal cortex yesterday, too, because

I wanted to see what that would be like in comparison to the adrenal

aide. I guess I won't be taking that!

I would really like to know what is happening here, though. Possibly

it's all neurologically caused, and I think that is a big part of it,

but when messing with all these hormones, I can't really tell what's

going on exactly. I am really confused about what the h-ll I am

supposed to do at this point! everything makes me worse, and doing

nothing also makes me worse -- although albeit at a much slower rate!

It's been 6 months since I found out about the hashi's, and I've made

ZERO progress in treating it since then. In fact, I just keep going

backward! I feel like just giving up and letting the thyroid take me

down. at least the quality of life was a lot better than this! some

carpal tunnel, depression, and cold, big deal. I've never been as sick

as I have been since I started trying to treat this.

sorry, just venting -- frustrated and confused. what is the answer

here???

March 30, 2008

Can you post your saliva labs again? Have you had ferritin tested?

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March 30, 2008

>

> Can you post your saliva labs again? Have you had ferritin tested?

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets

>

Off the top of my head, saliva labs are:

morning 21 (stressed out morning, though)

11-noon: <1

4-5: 1

11-mid: 3

ferritin is 38, I believe.

-Jeff

March 30, 2008

starcycle,

I am in the same boat at you, found out I had hashi's about 6 months

ago, couldn't tolerate thyroid meds, couldn't tolerate any adrenal

support of any kind, so I'm on nothing, trying to use supplements and

nutrition to heal myself.

I'm doing OK, but really lack any drive to do much, so obviously

something is not right. I'm also going through meno, so I have no

idea what causes my symptoms--thyroid or sex hormones?

I feel like I'm in limbo with this. Every time I experimented with

various things, the symptoms were awful and would sometimes last for

days. So I'd rather just deal the best I can with how I feel daily

than introduce a substance that puts me over the edge.

Cindy

> >

> > neuro/immune, like I said. But I don't want to risk it and really

> > crash twice as bad, either. Though I don't think I have twice as bad

> > to go before it would do me in! I just don't know what to think at

> > this point. I can't believe I would get worse like this from adrenal

> > cortex!

> >

>

> I just ordered some nutricology adrenal cortex yesterday, too, because

> I wanted to see what that would be like in comparison to the adrenal

> aide. I guess I won't be taking that!

>

> I would really like to know what is happening here, though. Possibly

> it's all neurologically caused, and I think that is a big part of it,

> but when messing with all these hormones, I can't really tell what's

> going on exactly. I am really confused about what the h-ll I am

> supposed to do at this point! everything makes me worse, and doing

> nothing also makes me worse -- although albeit at a much slower rate!

>

> It's been 6 months since I found out about the hashi's, and I've made

> ZERO progress in treating it since then. In fact, I just keep going

> backward! I feel like just giving up and letting the thyroid take me

> down. at least the quality of life was a lot better than this! some

> carpal tunnel, depression, and cold, big deal. I've never been as sick

> as I have been since I started trying to treat this.

>

> sorry, just venting -- frustrated and confused. what is the answer

> here???

>

March 30, 2008

I would try Phosphatidyl Serine wiht the supplements oyu CAN take, and

see if this helps your receptors work better. You NEED the cortils but I

do nto think your body is utilizing it properly.

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Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

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March 30, 2008

Hi

sorry for what you are going through. I am on ACEs for 6 or 7 years and I can

tell you that this is not directly related to ACe. But it could be that

cortisone supplementation was not good for you or it could be dosage problem.I

don't know anything about hashimotos..

were you on 18-20 drops since long time? if so,I don't think you can stop it

abruptly.

good luck.

nil

Help - Severe ACE Reaction

I had a severe reaction from taking ACE last night - around 9:30 lungs

started having really bad bronchospasms, then I crashed and virtually

passed out for about an hour. When I woke up I was completely trashed

March 30, 2008

>

> Hi

>

> sorry for what you are going through. I am on ACEs for 6 or 7 years

and I can tell you that this is not directly related to ACe. But it

could be that cortisone supplementation was not good for you or it

could be dosage problem.I don't know anything about hashimotos..

>

> were you on 18-20 drops since long time? if so,I don't think you can

stop it abruptly.

>

> good luck.

> nil

Thanks nil, I think it must be related to the ACE, because that is

what started the lung constrictions. I didn't have those before taking

ACE, and I've had them with Isocort, the adrenal drops, and then again

last night during whatever was triggered. Like I said, I thought it

was a direct reaction to something in the isocort, but now after

having this reaction I'm not really sure where it's coming from.

I think Val is right that my body is not using cortisol properly, but

phosphatidylserine is very bad for me, as I took it years ago and it

blunted my cortisol response severely, contributing to a lot of these

problems. Maybe you're right that it's the dosage, perhaps it was an

overdose?

I've only been on the 18-20 drops for about 2 weeks or so - do you

think that is really long enough to turn off my own adrenal function?

I took 2 drops this afternoon just as a precaution, since that is when

my own cortisol is usually the lowest, but I really don't want to take

any more if it's not absolutely necessary.

thanks,

Jeff

March 30, 2008

>>but

phosphatidylserine is very bad for me, as I took it years ago and it

blunted my cortisol response severely, contributing to a lot of these

problems.<<

PS does NOT blunt a cortisol response. It OPENS cortisol receptors and makes

your c0rtisl work better for you. How ever if you were already dow on cortils

there was not enough there for it to work with so THTA may have been the

problem. I have never read that it blunts cortisol response.

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March 30, 2008

Thanks nil, I think it must be related to the ACE, because that is

what started the lung constrictions. I didn't have those before taking

ACE, and I've had them with Isocort, the adrenal drops, and then again

last night during whatever was triggered. Like I said, I thought it

was a direct reaction to something in the isocort, but now after

having this reaction I'm not really sure where it's coming from.

It seems that you have problems with taking cortisone or it is a dosage

problem..

I think Val is right that my body is not using cortisol properly, but

phosphatidylserine is very bad for me, as I took it years ago and it

blunted my cortisol response severely, contributing to a lot of these

problems. Maybe you're right that it's the dosage, perhaps it was an

overdose?

I really don't know. it might also be an interaction with other supplements

you are taking.

I've only been on the 18-20 drops for about 2 weeks or so - do you

think that is really long enough to turn off my own adrenal function?

no,I don't think so..

I took 2 drops this afternoon just as a precaution, since that is when

my own cortisol is usually the lowest, but I really don't want to take

any more if it's not absolutely necessary.

I suggest you to watch yourself very closely. if you feel a need for it,take

it..I really think stopping it abruptly might cause problems even if the

previous dose was overdose.Don't know what Val will say on this. Be careful..

there is something really important here. I have heard noone having this

effect till now.I am on 27 mg hc eq. of ace now and never had something like you

describe.I think you need to make an extensive research on this to find out the

reason.

wish you the best.

nil

March 30, 2008

>

> >>but

> phosphatidylserine is very bad for me, as I took it years ago and it

> blunted my cortisol response severely, contributing to a lot of these

> problems.<<

>

> PS does NOT blunt a cortisol response. It OPENS cortisol receptors

and makes your c0rtisl work better for you. How ever if you were

already dow on cortils there was not enough there for it to work with

so THTA may have been the problem. I have never read that it blunts

cortisol response.

yes, it alters the permeability of the hypothalmic cell membrane

increasing the cortisol feedback sensitivity. so iow it then takes

less and less cortisol to turn off your own response because the

feedback mechanism is much more sensitized. especially in mercury

poisoned it can be very bad, because for some reason the membrane

often does not return to pre-psds state, but remains sensitized for

years.

so if you have chronic fatigue syndrome or adrenal problems and don't

produce enough cortisol as it is, adding the seriphos can just

exacerbate the problem and make things worse, which as I said is part

of what happened to me. they say " response to physical stress, " and

" stress response, " etc., but of course they are not testing or taking

into account people with chronic fatigue syndrome or those who are

adrenal challenged, they are testing on " normal " people. So if you are

adrenally challenged or have CFS, etc. you can maybe see that it can

be a total disaster the same way it would be a disaster for an

addison's or adrenal challenged person to take a couple of grains of

armour, whereas a normal person without adrenal could take handfuls no

problem, etc.

here are a couple of studies on it:

Eur J Clin Pharmacol. 1992;42(4):385-8.

Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the

stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in

healthy men.

Monteleone P, Maj M, Beinat L, Natale M, Kemali D.

Institute of Psychiatry, First Medical School, University of

Naples, Italy.

The effect of chronic administration of phosphatidylserine derived

from brain cortex on the neuroendocrine responses to physical stress

has been examined in a placebo-controlled study in 9 healthy men.

Phosphatidylserine 800 mg/d for 10 days significantly blunted the ACTH

and cortisol responses to physical exercise (P = 0.003 and P = 0.03,

respectively), without affecting the rise in plasma GH and PRL.

Physical exercise significantly increased the plasma lactate

concentration both after placebo and phosphatidylserine. The results

suggest that chronic oral administration of phosphatidylserine may

counteract stress-induced activation of the

hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in man.

Neuroendocrinology. 1990 Sep;52(3):243-8.

Effects of phosphatidylserine on the neuroendocrine response to

physical stress in humans.

Monteleone P, Beinat L, Tanzillo C, Maj M, Kemali D.

Institute of Medical Psychology and Psychiatry, First Medical

School, University of Naples, Italy.

The activity of brain cortex-derived phosphatidylserine (BC-PS) on

the neuroendocrine and neurovegetative responses to physical stress

was tested in 8 healthy men who underwent three experiments with a

bicycle ergometer. According to a double-blind design, before starting

the exercise, each subject received intravenously, within 10 min, 50

or 75 mg of BC-PS or a volume-matched placebo diluted in 100 ml of

saline. Blood samples were collected before and after the exercise for

plasma epinephrine (E), norepinephrine (NE), dopamine (DA),

adrenocorticotropin (ACTH), cortisol, growth hormone (GH), prolactin

(PRL) and glucose determinations. Blood pressure and heart rate were

also recorded. Physical stress induced a clear-cut increase in plasma

E, NE, ACTH, cortisol, GH and PRL, whereas no significant change was

observed in plasma DA and glucose. Pretreatment with both 50 and 75 mg

BC-PS significantly blunted the ACTH and cortisol responses to

physical stress.

March 30, 2008

Hi Jeff

I read your note with some sadness.I also have been taking seriphos and i was

wondering if it had negative effect on my condition. I really don't understand

much about this receptor issue. Are you sure it hurts ones who have CFS?I am

also mercury toxic. It was prescribed me by my naturopath and i know they are

using it for many other patients. I had great trust in my naturopath but i am

very confused now.

bw

nil

Re: Help - Severe ACE Reaction

>

> >>but

> phosphatidylserine is very bad for me, as I took it years ago and it

>

March 31, 2008

>

> Hi Jeff

>

> I read your note with some sadness.I also have been taking seriphos

and i was wondering if it had negative effect on my condition. I

really don't understand much about this receptor issue. Are you sure

it hurts ones who have CFS?I am also mercury toxic. It was prescribed

me by my naturopath and i know they are using it for many other

patients. I had great trust in my naturopath but i am very confused now.

>

> bw

> nil

Hi nil,

I'm not a doc, so all I can say is try to follow your best judgment,

based on all the information available to you. All I know is that it

harmed me by having a long term negative effect on my HPAA and

cortisol response. And that was over five years ago when I took it,

and the results are still here, so I have to say for all intents and

purposes it appears that the effects of the phosphatidylserine are

more or less permanent. Once that phosphorous gets pumped into the

cell membrane, it seems extremely difficult if not impossible to pump

it out again. Mercury poisoned typically already have too much

phosphorous anyway, simply from the biochemistry of mercury poisoning

and how it affects things, so in that respect it seems like it doesn't

make much sense to just keep pumping in more. I felt really good on it

when I first started taking it, really calm and nice, but that is a

" false positive " if you follow what I'm saying. Of course I felt

calmer with the ACTH/cortisol blunted, but the long term effects were

very detrimental. So again, I would just urge you to use your best

judgment.

Maybe you could at least present the science to your naturopath and

get their input on it, or print out my messages to show them, etc.

Even the best docs are only human and can't be aware of every single

thing. If they react dismissively or defensively, then at least you

know they are not being intelligent but reactive/dogmatic and you can

take that into consideration, as well.

As for me and the ACE reaction, I think it has become pretty clear to

me since yesterday that it is primarily an immunological reaction. The

ACE seems to have stimulated the immunity through some neurological

mechanisms, and caused a whole immune cascade. So it seems like the

synthetics are the only choice to me at this point, if I can ever heal

the stomach ulcers.

thanks,

Jeff

March 31, 2008

Not to butt in here, becasue I really don't have any comment on the

main issue you're having...but i was wondering if you've identified

the cause of your stomach ulcers? Low stomach acid can often be the

culprit...and yet docs prescribe prilosec to lower stomach acid even

more. Have you asked your doc for a test of your stomach acid?

there's a good book on the subject: Why Stomach Acid is Good for YOu

by Dr. WRight. Low stomach acid can cause all kinds of

problems, including malabsorption/digestion, and if your intestines

are leaky then molecules from anything ingested can get right into the

blood stream and go through the blood/brain barrier and cause havoc on

you.

Just a thought....good luck!

Liz

> >

> > Hi Jeff

> >

> > I read your note with some sadness.I also have been taking seriphos

> and i was wondering if it had negative effect on my condition. I

> really don't understand much about this receptor issue. Are you sure

> it hurts ones who have CFS?I am also mercury toxic. It was prescribed

> me by my naturopath and i know they are using it for many other

> patients. I had great trust in my naturopath but i am very confused now.

> >

> > bw

> > nil

>

> Hi nil,

>

> I'm not a doc, so all I can say is try to follow your best judgment,

> based on all the information available to you. All I know is that it

> harmed me by having a long term negative effect on my HPAA and

> cortisol response. And that was over five years ago when I took it,

> and the results are still here, so I have to say for all intents and

> purposes it appears that the effects of the phosphatidylserine are

> more or less permanent. Once that phosphorous gets pumped into the

> cell membrane, it seems extremely difficult if not impossible to pump

> it out again. Mercury poisoned typically already have too much

> phosphorous anyway, simply from the biochemistry of mercury poisoning

> and how it affects things, so in that respect it seems like it doesn't

> make much sense to just keep pumping in more. I felt really good on it

> when I first started taking it, really calm and nice, but that is a

> " false positive " if you follow what I'm saying. Of course I felt

> calmer with the ACTH/cortisol blunted, but the long term effects were

> very detrimental. So again, I would just urge you to use your best

> judgment.

>

> Maybe you could at least present the science to your naturopath and

> get their input on it, or print out my messages to show them, etc.

> Even the best docs are only human and can't be aware of every single

> thing. If they react dismissively or defensively, then at least you

> know they are not being intelligent but reactive/dogmatic and you can

> take that into consideration, as well.

>

> As for me and the ACE reaction, I think it has become pretty clear to

> me since yesterday that it is primarily an immunological reaction. The

> ACE seems to have stimulated the immunity through some neurological

> mechanisms, and caused a whole immune cascade. So it seems like the

> synthetics are the only choice to me at this point, if I can ever heal

> the stomach ulcers.

>

> thanks,

> Jeff

>

March 31, 2008

>

> Not to butt in here, becasue I really don't have any comment on the

> main issue you're having...but i was wondering if you've identified

> the cause of your stomach ulcers? Low stomach acid can often be the

> culprit...and yet docs prescribe prilosec to lower stomach acid even

> more. Have you asked your doc for a test of your stomach acid?

> there's a good book on the subject: Why Stomach Acid is Good for YOu

> by Dr. WRight. Low stomach acid can cause all kinds of

> problems, including malabsorption/digestion, and if your intestines

> are leaky then molecules from anything ingested can get right into the

> blood stream and go through the blood/brain barrier and cause havoc on

> you.

>

> Just a thought....good luck!

> Liz

>

Thanks Liz! The ulcers started last year after I did a medrol dose

pack for another serious allergic reaction (something about march, I

don't know what it is ). A day or two after stopping the medrol, my

stomach started burning severely. So in my case it was apparently from

too much acid. Then over time I guess the ulcers formed from the

effects of that. If I take anything even slightly acidic now, it

really causes severe pain. Even a small amount of DGL causes pain now

from the acid in it, even though DGL is supposed to heal ulcers! The

few days I was on prilosec last week I noticed it definitely helped,

then yesterday I didn't take any in case it was related to the

reaction I had, and I could feel it was worse again. So in my case it

appears to be too much, not too little. No doubt all this is related

to the thyroid and whatever the medrol did in relation to that, but I

thought hypothyroid normally made you have less acid, so I don't

really know why I got too much.

Jeff

March 31, 2008

Well, doesn't look like a stomach acid issue, although some mysterious

food sensitivity could be attacking your system. Usually digestive

issues relate to food/chemicals/additives somehow. I'd really

recommend a food elimination diet for a month to try to isolate the

offenders (i.e. corn is in many things, including medrol, as is

lactose). you may not notice a reaction just to the food, unless you

eliminate it for a few weeks then introduce it again. Common offenders

are dairy, wheat(gluten), corn, soy, eggs, nuts. All those

neurological symtpoms to me signify that your intestines are leaking

molecules and that probably didnt' start with the medrol...but that

was the final thing that finally gave you symptoms you could notice.

Liz

> >

> > Not to butt in here, becasue I really don't have any comment on the

> > main issue you're having...but i was wondering if you've identified

> > the cause of your stomach ulcers? Low stomach acid can often be the

> > culprit...and yet docs prescribe prilosec to lower stomach acid even

> > more. Have you asked your doc for a test of your stomach acid?

> > there's a good book on the subject: Why Stomach Acid is Good for YOu

> > by Dr. WRight. Low stomach acid can cause all kinds of

> > problems, including malabsorption/digestion, and if your intestines

> > are leaky then molecules from anything ingested can get right into the

> > blood stream and go through the blood/brain barrier and cause havoc on

> > you.

> >

> > Just a thought....good luck!

> > Liz

> >

>

> Thanks Liz! The ulcers started last year after I did a medrol dose

> pack for another serious allergic reaction (something about march, I

> don't know what it is ). A day or two after stopping the medrol, my

> stomach started burning severely. So in my case it was apparently from

> too much acid. Then over time I guess the ulcers formed from the

> effects of that. If I take anything even slightly acidic now, it

> really causes severe pain. Even a small amount of DGL causes pain now

> from the acid in it, even though DGL is supposed to heal ulcers! The

> few days I was on prilosec last week I noticed it definitely helped,

> then yesterday I didn't take any in case it was related to the

> reaction I had, and I could feel it was worse again. So in my case it

> appears to be too much, not too little. No doubt all this is related

> to the thyroid and whatever the medrol did in relation to that, but I

> thought hypothyroid normally made you have less acid, so I don't

> really know why I got too much.

>

> Jeff

>

March 31, 2008

Hi Jeff

Thanks.. are Phosphatidyl Serine and seriphos the same or two different things?

bw

nil

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