Re: Very Low Androgens after Cortisol replacement?

March 4, 2008

What is a FAI?

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

March 4, 2008

>

> What is a FAI?

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

Hi Val,

Its part of the Androgen Panel ~ Free Androgen Index

Lethal Lee

March 4, 2008

Well your testosterone is in the dirt and not much will help that BUT

taking testosterone. Takinf progesterone to help cortisll levels

USUSALLY doe snot work. Too many conversions and usually if the

pathways are workign correctly we dont have low cortisol to begin with.

Progesterone can also bind to cortisl receptors and bock what cortisl

you do have from working correctly thus creating cortiso resistance.

Your RT3 REALLY is high if it were me I would switch to all T3 to lower

it. I do not understand the FAI test as you might have guessed as I have

not ever heard of it.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

March 4, 2008

>

> Well your testosterone is in the dirt and not much will help that

BUT

> taking testosterone. Takinf progesterone to help cortisll levels

> USUSALLY doe snot work. Too many conversions and usually if the

> pathways are workign correctly we dont have low cortisol to begin

with.

> Progesterone can also bind to cortisl receptors and bock what

cortisl

> you do have from working correctly thus creating cortiso

resistance.

> Your RT3 REALLY is high if it were me I would switch to all T3 to

lower

> it. I do not understand the FAI test as you might have guessed as I

have

> not ever heard of it.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

Hi Val

Does this help?

=====================================================================

Free Androgen Index

(From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_androgen_index

Free Androgen Index or FAI is a ratio used to determine abnormal

androgen status in humans. The ratio is the total testosterone level

divided by the sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) level, and then

multiplying by a constant, usually 100. The concentrations of

testosterone and SHBG are normally measured in nanomols per liter.

FAI has no units.

The majority of testosterone in the blood does not exist as the free

molecule. Instead around half is tightly bound to sex hormone binding

globulin, and the other half is weakly bound to albumin. Only a small

percentage is unbound, under 3% in females, and less than 0.7% in

males. Since only the free testosterone is able to bind to tissue

receptors to exert its effects, it is believed that free testosterone

is the best marker of a person's androgen status. However, free

testosterone is difficult and expensive to measure, and many

laboratories do not offer this service.

The free androgen index is intended to give a guide to the free

testosterone level, but it is not very accurate. Consequently, there

are no universally agreed 'normal ranges', and levels slightly above

or below quoted laboratory reference ranges may not be clinically

significant.

Reference ranges depend on the constant in the calculation - 100 is

used in the formula above, and the following suggested ranges are

based on this. As with any laboratory measurement, however, it is

vital that results are compared against the reference range quoted

for that laboratory. Neither FAI nor free or total testosterone

measurements should be interpreted in isolation; as a bare minimum,

gonadotropin levels should also be measured.

As a guide, in healthy adult men typical FAI values are 30-150.

Values below 30 may indicate testosterone deficiency, which may

contribute to fatigue, erectile dysfunction, weight gain,

osteoporosis and loss of secondary sex characteristics. In women,

androgens are most often measured when there is concern that they may

be raised (as in hirsutism or the polycystic ovary syndrome). Typical

values for the FAI in women are <7.

======================================================================

The question I was asking really is can the Adrenal Steroid meds DO

THIS ???

I saw a passing reference to DHEA in RTH forums to the effect that

DHEA can be low AI (usually more so for Secondaries which I am). BUT

little emphasis put on it and certainly NO recommendation to test

Hormones & Androgens after starting meds to see IF they are

affected??? They also say to fix Adrenals (HC & Florinef) then

Vitamins & Minerals, then Thyroid - THEN check & adjust Hormones &

Androgens if needed.

Phil from Mens RTH Forum says it looks like the Solone and/or

Florinef is shutting down my Pituitary completely? This drastic a

reduction is somewhat unusual I gather?

Obviously CAN'T wait to act on results like the above though can I?

Do you agree? You suggested Testosterone HRT- I'm fine with that &

will ask my Doc for Cream.

What about DHEA? I take 20mg compounded cap daily. Do I STOP that? Do

you take one only? Or can you take both? I am also pretty low in

Estrogen & Progesterone despite the HRT I'm currently on as well?

If I've had this response to the meds is it likely to change/improve?

In other words is it 'a period of adjustment' or unlikely to resolve

and best to start HRT for all ASAP????

I am still working out my optimal dose for Florinef & may need to

adjust Solone too depending on the Florinef dose & if I get

Glucocorticoid response to it.I put on 4 kilos in 2 days due to water

retention was very intolerant of heat & couldn't get enough Salt to

Salt cramping etc. Its only now that I've got to 3/4 tab that there

is some improvement to that.

I also had some water retention BEFORE that I put on 6 kilos in the

first three months after starting E2/E3 & Progesterone. I'm also

about 25 kilos OVERWEIGHT in total. A real good look when you're all

of 5 feet tall!!!!!

By the way I'm Hashi's, have Heamochromatosis, very low

Aldosterone, have Mercury Toxicity from my 9 Amalgams, ADD, Fibro,

had Kidney Stones 1 year ago & high BP (from elevated Renin). My

Adrenal Crisis was brought on by Gallbladder Surgery 8 years ago and

it has taken 7 years & 11 months to get the Thyroid & Adrenals

properly tested & Diagnosed.

With regards to the RT3 I know their are two 'schools of thought '

about how to best deal with that. Armour (we have NTH in Australia)

OR T3. I did bring up the possibilty of using T3 with my Doc but she

wasn't willing to prescribe that.

My Doc is only learning by the way. I bought her a copy of The Safe

Uses of Cortisol and printed off a lot of info from STTM & RTH. She

has Nutritional quals & is experienced with HRT for Sex Hormones and

HRT for Primary Hypothyroidism. NOT familiar/experienced with

Adrenals (whether Primary or Secondary) nor with prescribing

Cortisol. I did manage to convince her to approve an ACTH Stim which

created a bit of a precedent here in Australia where this is usually

the province of Endo's only. We don't have DO's here. She will be

helping with nutrirional support & detox if I ever get well enough to

go ahead with Dental Revision.

If you think my RT3 is high you should take a look at my Twin Son's

Labs. They are almost 16 are both Hashi's, low Aldosterone,

Hypogonadism, high RT3, one looks obviously Hypopit (other may well

be too), AI, ADHD,have Migraines, and are Hypothyroid.They both have

to have ACTH Stims done & have appointments with my Doc in the next

two weeks.

Here's their links

Lethal Chaos (Twin One) Labs & History

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=2496

Lethal Destruction (Twin Two) Labs & History

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=2495

March 4, 2008

Being secondary the ussual do adrenals and thyroid first is fine, but in

mid stride wiht them you HAVE to look at sex hormoens as well as low

testosterone can make you FEEL hypothyroid. It can also give symptoms of

cortiosl excess as muscle wasting is common with low testosterone. I

would say you can do noth DHEA and Testosterone as each has their own

receptors and do unique jobs DHEA is not JUST a precursor. As for

estrogen and progesterone they need to be balanced both middle to high

in range for your age/ menstrual status.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

March 4, 2008

>

> Being secondary the ussual do adrenals and thyroid first is fine,

but in

> mid stride wiht them you HAVE to look at sex hormoens as well as

low

> testosterone can make you FEEL hypothyroid. It can also give

symptoms of

> cortiosl excess as muscle wasting is common with low testosterone.

I

> would say you can do noth DHEA and Testosterone as each has their

own

> receptors and do unique jobs DHEA is not JUST a precursor. As for

> estrogen and progesterone they need to be balanced both middle to

high

> in range for your age/ menstrual status.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

Thanks Val

" I would say you can do both DHEA and Testosterone as each has their

own receptors and do unique jobs DHEA is not JUST a precursor. As for

estrogen and progesterone they need to be balanced both middle to

high in range for your age/ menstrual status. "

Noted about DHEA & Testosterone. Difficult to know WHAT my Menstrual

Status (Perimenapausal,Menopausal or Post menopausal)is at the moment

so who knows what the 'appropriate' range is????

" ....sex hormones as well as low testosterone can make you FEEL

hypothyroid.... "

It should be noted that I had NO problems with my Androgens

previously apart from wanting to optimise DHEA & Testosterone levels

to cope with CFS & Fibro. NEVER had any deficiencies. So the change

is sudden & recent. My Hypothyroid & Adrenal symptoms have been

around for some 8 years as I said before. I hear what you say about

Androgen Deficiencies symptoms can mimic Hypothyroid too. Makes it

all the more imperative to get HRT in place for them FIRST yes?

Otherwise would not be able to work out Thyroid NTH optimal dose as

with Hashi's symptoms not Labs are what you use to judge - is it

not?

March 4, 2008