chelation and chemical detox

[Guest guest]

> Dear Morria,

> I did not expect such a biased approach to my message. KEEP AN

> OPEN MIND!!!! Just check FIR saunas on the net. It is common

> knowledge that they help with heavy metal detox.

No, it is fraudulent marketing hype that they help with heavy metal

detox. All actual data says otherwise, and also all legitimate

analysis of their false claims suggests the same.

> Also, L. Ron

> Hubbard's protocol, which is based on saunas,

Regular ones, not infrared ones. They aren't interchangeable.

> has been extensively

> studied and has been found to reduce mercury levels effectively.

>

> > > Many people have been cured from mercury by using infrared

> saunas.

I don't know about this. I have yet to hear from one of them. I have

however heard from a large number of people who got incredibly

permamnently worse from attempting to use infrared saunas for mercury

detox.

> > > You just need to know what you are doing

Correct.

> > in terms of

> > remineralisation

> > > and supplementation with antioxidants and intestinal mercury

> > > absorbers.

Not the correct things you need to know about.

> > For many doctors FIR saunas are the golden standard

> for

> > > heavy metal detox.

because they are incompetent and don't get in as much trouble with

their licensing boards when they hurt patients using nonprescription

items as they do when they need a prescription pad to do harm.

> > Andy is just not prepared to accept it

> openly.

I would be really quite thrilled to accept and embrace any real

advance in detox. Infrared saunas are not an advance in detox.

> > > an older message, if I remember correctly, he has stated that 1

> hour

> > > of sauna is probably equivalent to the daily chelation protocol.

1 hour of REGULAR sauna, not infrared sauna. Equivalent to a day of

50-100 mg of DMSA every 4 hours. Not equivalent to ALA.

> I know that and that is why I propose that FIR is probably much

> better.

You need to learn something about regular and infrared saunas then so

that you will come to see that your proposal is incorrect.

> Possibly so much better that Andy should look at it more

> seriously.

I looked at it a lot more seriously than you have. Please provide the

spectral transmissivity of water at the relevant wavelengths. That

was hard to find. Human tissue would be better, but is unavailable

and water is a reasonable surrogate since it will be more

transmissive.

> He suggested to somebody in the group to stay away of FIR

> saunas because he had seen people get bad reactions. Now tell me, is

> this scientific?

Yes. I see you have no clue what the word means. Please go back to

your junior high school science book and learn it's proper definition.

> Sauna usage has many parameters like time period,

> temperature, remineralisation, hydration... Did he research all

this?

Adequately.

It is clear you did not.

Andy .. . . . . . . . .

[Guest guest]

Dear Morria,

> > I believe that this exchange of views will not help this group

> > anymore.

>

> Then why are you writing to me?

Because you obviously have not realised the responsibility you have

as a moderator to this group.

> > Anyone who reads the messages will realise our differences

> > and get the picture.

>

> that is really funny. I don't think anyone would have any

> idea what you are referring to. I sure don't anyhow.

Morria, you are obviously sponsoring Andy's ideas and I personally

would like to see a more open discussion here and not immediate

dismissal of things like FIR saunas and Modifilan. Andy has

dismissed these methods in 2 lines of text, in previous messages to

people, without presenting any research or listening to people's

experiences.

>

> > In general, I definitely think that this group has been

dominated

> > by Andy's views and protocol, which, although very valuable and

> > effective, is not the only way.

> As he and everyone else is well aware. You may read my public

> " statement " on this if you wish:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/Andy_dose_sched

I read it and you are right on this one. But do you want the other

methods to be presented to the group? I don't think you really seem

too enthusiastic to learn about them. Andy know better after all...

> > He dissmisses anything else in an

> > unscientific way without having researched it and he makes

> > suggestions based on these views.

>

> Once again, I see you somehow know how much or how little

> research Andy is doing. I believe you are actually incorrect

> about this in many cases. Perhaps you would like to explain

> your knowledge of Andy's research habits and history regarding

> " other " methods of detox?

If Andy has done research on alternative methods he should have

replied and behaved differently when somebody asks about them. With

the way he replies, I believe he is starting to lose credibility for

some members here. I remember when I first asked him about chitosan

and modifilan he was really rude to me. You even sent me a personal

email to calm me down...

> > Your argument about the need to

> > mention people who got bad reactions from FIR saunas is totally

> > biased.

>

> Really? What is my " bias " ? If you are interested in having

> a " polite " dialog you might refrain from such inferences.

You are biased in that you are probably thinking that Andy holds

the only sensible approach to mercury detox. A moderator should in

my opinion be more open and supportive of other opinions and

dialogue. At least this is what I understand in the " mission

statement " of this group. You have serious responsibility as a

moderator to keep things open to other views. At the moment anybody

who enters might think that Andy's protocol is about the only way to

a cure... When I contacted doctors both in Europe and the States, I

realised that there are other very valid and researched approaches

to the problem which are not being represented here with the same

enthusiasm as Andy's. And you should not let this happen in my

opinion...

> In point of fact, I do actually think negative reactions

> are important.

Of course. Andy admits that with his protocol people will have a

rough year or two (page 1)

> > Andy has simply not researched this area enough.

>

> Again, if you wish to have a " polite " dialog, you might refrain

> from such inferences.

See previous comment

> > FIR sauna

> > based protocols could be the subject of another book in

themselves.

> > By the same logic Andy's protocol could be dismissed because it

can

> > create really bad reactions, especially if one is not extra

careful.

> > And I am sure you know that.

>

> No, I do not know that. As a matter of fact, I have collected

> and indexed every " bad reaction " I've heard of........

> but, since you have been reading the list for a year, I'm sure

> you are already aware of this.

see previous comment

> You are also misquoting me, which I do not appreciate. It is NOT

> " by the same logic " .

It is exactly by the same logic. Saunas move toxins too and can

create bad reactions but they also ultimately lead to an effective

detox. The L. Ron Hubbard protocol would not be as successful if

they didn't... (read " Clear Body Clear Mind " )

> > Morria please be more polite with other peoples' contributions

to

> > the group

>

> I'm sorry you find my comments impolite, but I do not find them so.

> I therefore do not plan to change my style of comment. If at

> some time I find I am being impolite, I will certainly consider

> changing.

Whereas another member of the group thanked me for my message, you

made me seem not serious in terms of my comments about Andy's views

and behaviour.

> > (your comment - are you reading another Andy? was really

> > ironic -I know Andy's book by heart).

>

> I was serious. I wanted to express the extent to which your

> comment does not match Andy's behavior. I hope I was clear.

I did not question Andy's behaviour in this argument. I just

mentioned the fact about mineral chelators (barely chelators, if you

want, which remove brain fog in some people).

> You may also want to get some guidance on the meaning of

> " ironic " . It does not make sense to me as you have used it here,

> but that is okay.

The word " ironic " is Greek and I know its meaning probably better

than you... and my comment just means you should respect other

peoples' views and discuss with them calmly if you have any

different opinion. Your comment " are you reading another Andy? " does

not have a place in a discussion between people who respect each

other's right to express different opinions.

> > Everybody here tries to help

> > in good faith.

>

> Thanks, I am a regular contributor--- glad you realize I am

> trying to help in good faith.

Of course you have good faith Morria. And I hope you have

understood in good faith the purpose of my last messages. I am sure

the group has.

[Guest guest]

Dear Andy,

I ask you in really good faith, after having successfully done

your protocol and after knowing your book literally word to word.

Can you please tell me and the group more about FIR and your

research/experience with it? How can you be so sure it is harmful?

Can it be combined with your protocol? It will be a real

contribution to the group. Up to now you have just stated that you

know some people who got worse...

> > > He dissmisses anything else in an

> > > unscientific way

>

> Untrue. But then it doesn't appear you know what the word

> " scientific " means so it seems pointless to debate it with you.

>

> > > without having researched it

>

> I do research them all in great detail before stating an opinion.

I

> can't help it that many people aren't adequately scientifically

> trained to tell the difference between snake oil and chelators,

and

> when people ask relevant questions I do usually answer them in

> adequate detail for even the informed layman to figure it out.

>

> > > and he makes

> > > suggestions based on these views.

>

> Correct. I make suggestions based on legitimate scientific

analysis

> of available data (as opposed to marketing hype) and for the most

part

> these suggestions turn out to be sound.

>

> I only make these explanations to people who appear to know what

they

> are talking about at whatever level they are talking - that is,

ones

> who use words properly and with relevant understanding, whether

they

> be complex scientific terminology or third grade vocabularly.

>

> End of subject. And be nice to the other people on the list, too,

if

> you want to continue the debate.

>

> Andy . . . . .

[Guest guest]

Dear Andy,

I am really happy with your reply!

You finally cought the spirit! Please give us more info about your

research on FIR. A lot of people are thinking of starting FIR

protocols (like me) and we really need the advice!

Thanks,

> > Dear Morria,

> > I did not expect such a biased approach to my message. KEEP AN

> > OPEN MIND!!!! Just check FIR saunas on the net. It is common

> > knowledge that they help with heavy metal detox.

>

> No, it is fraudulent marketing hype that they help with heavy

metal

> detox. All actual data says otherwise, and also all legitimate

> analysis of their false claims suggests the same.

>

> > Also, L. Ron

> > Hubbard's protocol, which is based on saunas,

>

> Regular ones, not infrared ones. They aren't interchangeable.

>

> > has been extensively

> > studied and has been found to reduce mercury levels effectively.

> >

> > > > Many people have been cured from mercury by using infrared

> > saunas.

>

> I don't know about this. I have yet to hear from one of them. I

have

> however heard from a large number of people who got incredibly

> permamnently worse from attempting to use infrared saunas for

mercury

> detox.

>

> > > > You just need to know what you are doing

>

> Correct.

>

> > > in terms of

> > > remineralisation

> > > > and supplementation with antioxidants and intestinal mercury

> > > > absorbers.

>

> Not the correct things you need to know about.

>

> > > For many doctors FIR saunas are the golden standard

> > for

> > > > heavy metal detox.

>

> because they are incompetent and don't get in as much trouble with

> their licensing boards when they hurt patients using

nonprescription

> items as they do when they need a prescription pad to do harm.

>

> > > Andy is just not prepared to accept it

> > openly.

>

> I would be really quite thrilled to accept and embrace any real

> advance in detox. Infrared saunas are not an advance in detox.

>

> > > > an older message, if I remember correctly, he has stated

that 1

> > hour

> > > > of sauna is probably equivalent to the daily chelation

protocol.

>

> 1 hour of REGULAR sauna, not infrared sauna. Equivalent to a day

of

> 50-100 mg of DMSA every 4 hours. Not equivalent to ALA.

>

> > I know that and that is why I propose that FIR is probably much

> > better.

>

> You need to learn something about regular and infrared saunas then

so

> that you will come to see that your proposal is incorrect.

>

> > Possibly so much better that Andy should look at it more

> > seriously.

>

> I looked at it a lot more seriously than you have. Please provide

the

> spectral transmissivity of water at the relevant wavelengths.

That

> was hard to find. Human tissue would be better, but is

unavailable

> and water is a reasonable surrogate since it will be more

> transmissive.

>

> > He suggested to somebody in the group to stay away of FIR

> > saunas because he had seen people get bad reactions. Now tell

me, is

> > this scientific?

>

> Yes. I see you have no clue what the word means. Please go back

to

> your junior high school science book and learn it's proper

definition.

>

> > Sauna usage has many parameters like time period,

> > temperature, remineralisation, hydration... Did he research all

> this?

>

> Adequately.

>

> It is clear you did not.

>

> Andy .. . . . . . . . .

[Guest guest]

> Dear Andy,

> I am really happy with your reply!

> You finally cought the spirit! Please give us more info about your

> research on FIR. A lot of people are thinking of starting FIR

> protocols (like me) and we really need the advice!

> Thanks,

>

Dear ,

I've read all your messages and I have to say: You are so obnoxious! Do you

hear yourself? Now in this message you are finally coming back to better

feelings but you are still ironic. I dislike so much people like you!

I believe Andy or Moria or anybody else don't owe you anything and I think

you forget this little detail. Think about it! And behave. The fact that you

might be metal poisoned doesn't give you the right to be rude. These two

people work A LOT!!! to help us. You should AT LEAST be polite and show some

common sense, even if you don't feel like respecting them.

Valentina

[Guest guest]

> Dear Andy,

> I ask you in really good faith, after having successfully done

> your protocol and after knowing your book literally word to word.

> Can you please tell me and the group more about FIR and your

> research/experience with it? How can you be so sure it is harmful?

> Can it be combined with your protocol? It will be a real

> contribution to the group. Up to now you have just stated that you

> know some people who got worse...

>

" a large number of people who got incredibly

permamnently worse "

[Guest guest]

Hi Andy-

Thank you for your suggestion.

I would not think of changing doctors. She continues to back up all her

recommendations with documented science including the effectiveness of FIR

saunas and other methods of detoxing.

Kathy

Re: chelation and chemical detox

>

such a strong belief for her now that it is in all her

> books and she finally published a detailed sauna

> protocol.

A clear indication you need to find a different doctor or do it on

your own. No matter how well known she is.

Andy . . . . .. . . . . . . . .

[Guest guest]

list: Thought I'd add my two cents worth on the sauna subject. My husband

and I are both mercury toxic. The FIR sauna caused both of us to have an

increase of symptoms. I had numbness in my arms; he had severe ringing in

his ears. My symptoms are better, but I have been chelating on Andy's

protocol. My husband's aren't better - he still has amalgams. He does use

regular sauna and hasn't had a problem from that. Interestingly, I am able

to use the FIR sauna while I chelate without any additional problems.

Carmen

[Guest guest]

> An FIR sauna is very different to a normal sauna. Just take a look

> in the net about the subject and I am sure you will be convinced. It

> uses radiation which penetrates the skin and goes deep inside the

> body.

This is a false statement that any technically knowledgeable person

would quickly recognize and ignore. The maximum penetration depth is

a centimeter if you use the optimum wavelength, and in fact the

emitters are broad spectrum so the average penetration depth is 1-2

mm.

> Basically the same radiation is used to locally detox and

> remove inflamation in sports rehabilitation - and from my research

> with friends who are athletes it works wonders for local injuries.

> Of course it cannot remove mercury from the brain. But at least in

> my case mercury is in my fat tissue. When I started losing fat and

> changed my diet, hair mercury shot up and later aluminium also rose

> above normal levels. My personal strategy is to continue with this

> regime of juices, modifilan and some antioxidant supplementation

> along with saunas (FIR from next week). When hair levels decrease to

> normal I will start ALA to clean up the brain. I really believe it

> sounds sensible to do a complete detox first and then go to a deeper

> level with ALA. Of course I believe FIR saunas will be of help at

> this final stage too. With proper remineralisation of course...

> Mic

[Guest guest]

Carmen,

I would like to thank you personally for your feedback in this

controversial subject.

> list: Thought I'd add my two cents worth on the sauna subject.

My husband

> and I are both mercury toxic. The FIR sauna caused both of us to

have an

> increase of symptoms. I had numbness in my arms; he had severe

ringing in

> his ears. My symptoms are better, but I have been chelating on

Andy's

> protocol. My husband's aren't better - he still has amalgams. He

does use

> regular sauna and hasn't had a problem from that. Interestingly,

I am able

> to use the FIR sauna while I chelate without any additional

problems.

>

> Carmen

[Guest guest]

Dear Andy,

I would like to thank you for your input.

> > An FIR sauna is very different to a normal sauna. Just take a

look

> > in the net about the subject and I am sure you will be

convinced. It

> > uses radiation which penetrates the skin and goes deep inside

the

> > body.

>

> This is a false statement that any technically knowledgeable

person

> would quickly recognize and ignore. The maximum penetration depth

is

> a centimeter if you use the optimum wavelength, and in fact the

> emitters are broad spectrum so the average penetration depth is 1-

2

> mm.

>

> > Basically the same radiation is used to locally detox and

> > remove inflamation in sports rehabilitation - and from my

research

> > with friends who are athletes it works wonders for local

injuries.

> > Of course it cannot remove mercury from the brain. But at least

in

> > my case mercury is in my fat tissue. When I started losing fat

and

> > changed my diet, hair mercury shot up and later aluminium also

rose

> > above normal levels. My personal strategy is to continue with

this

> > regime of juices, modifilan and some antioxidant supplementation

> > along with saunas (FIR from next week). When hair levels

decrease to

> > normal I will start ALA to clean up the brain. I really believe

it

> > sounds sensible to do a complete detox first and then go to a

deeper

> > level with ALA. Of course I believe FIR saunas will be of help

at

> > this final stage too. With proper remineralisation of course...

> > Mic

[Guest guest]

Dear Valentina,

Please calm down...

> > Dear Andy,

> > I am really happy with your reply!

> > You finally cought the spirit! Please give us more info about

your

> > research on FIR. A lot of people are thinking of starting FIR

> > protocols (like me) and we really need the advice!

> > Thanks,

> >

>

> Dear ,

> I've read all your messages and I have to say: You are so

obnoxious! Do you

> hear yourself? Now in this message you are finally coming back to

better

> feelings but you are still ironic. I dislike so much people like

you!

> I believe Andy or Moria or anybody else don't owe you anything and

I think

> you forget this little detail. Think about it! And behave. The

fact that you

> might be metal poisoned doesn't give you the right to be rude.

These two

> people work A LOT!!! to help us. You should AT LEAST be polite and

show some

> common sense, even if you don't feel like respecting them.

>

> Valentina

[Guest guest]

Dear Cathy,

Can you please roughly outline the protocol you use with this

doctor? I am really interested and it would be a nice addition to

the group archives...

I seem to have a problem with emailing you. Can you just send a

message to michael758@... so that I can see your address?

> Hi Andy-

>

> Thank you for your suggestion.

>

> I would not think of changing doctors. She continues to back up

all her recommendations with documented science including the

effectiveness of FIR saunas and other methods of detoxing.

>

> Kathy

>

> Re: chelation and chemical detox

>

>

> >

> such a strong belief for her now that it is in all her

> > books and she finally published a detailed sauna

> > protocol.

>

> A clear indication you need to find a different doctor or do it

on

> your own. No matter how well known she is.

>

> Andy . . . . .. . . . . . . . .

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > > Dear Andy,

> > > I am really happy with your reply!

> > > You finally cought the spirit! Please give us more info about

> your

> > > research on FIR.

you can do your own homework. I spelled it out in adequate detail in

earlier messages to make it easy.

Andy . . . . . . . . . . . .