Guest guest Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 In a message dated 9/19/02 12:21:13 PM Central Daylight Time, shihtzumom@... writes: << As you state....Dr Kusher's article " advises gastric bypass patients to have a daily calcium supplementation of between 1200-1500 mg. " He does NOT advise 1200-1500mg ELEMENTAL calcium. Therefore, you are advocating 1000 mg of TUMS (calcium carbonate) per day is sufficient????????? We all know that doesn't work for us. How many here have done that and ended up with osteoporosis? >> ----------------------------------- Okay, at the risk of starting this elemental calcium war all over again, I just gotta stick my 2 cents (202 cents?) in. First of all, I'm not sure ANYONE knows whether Kushner or the gov't RDA's are based on just calcium or on elemental calcium. I DO KNOW, however, that Dr. Weil, whose opinion I respect very highly, and whose newsletter I subscribe to, DOES recommend the calcium dosages be ELEMENTAL calcium. If anyone is interested in reading his article from March of this year, I'll be happy to post it. What I'm still trying to figure out is whether it's okay to take 6000 mg of cal citrate in order to get 1500 mg of elemental calcium. No one's come up with an answer yet that makes sense, and I've gone round and round on that one with Ray. Now I don't always see eye to eye with Ray (or any other vit co rep for that matter), but I don't recall him saying we should take Tums. If he did, u gotta point out to me where bcuz I missed that totally. Regards, Carol A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 In a message dated 9/19/02 7:04:23 PM Central Daylight Time, rudnicki@... writes: << 6000 is not safe according to my orthopedic doc - we have discussed this. 2000 is about norm for 'us' even with mild osteo. good luck deciding. >> ------------------------ Sue, This is exactly the issue I'm trying to get the right answer to. Weil says RDA's are for elemental calcium. Nature's Science (Vitalady's brand) rep says they are not elemental. Weil is a doc; the rep is not. But my d.o. says like your orthopedic doc, that 6000 of ANY calcium is too much. Now the bnf with Ray seems to say the RDA is for elemental. It's enuf to drive a person nuts trying to fig out what's right. I TEND to believe Weil. He's very much into nutrition and supplements, and works on the basis of taking the best of both traditional medicine and alternative therapies. He's Harvard educated (both undergrad and m.d.), clinical professor of internal medicine and head of the program in integrative medicine (which he initiated there) at U of Arizona in Tucson. He's regularly on tv and radio, (public as well as broadcast and cable). And he's not trying to sell anyone's particular product. You and I both know that MOST docs, WLS surgeons and otherwise, are notoriously lacking in info when it comes to good nutrition and the need for supplements. Which is why I rely so much on these online groups for good info. But I think we also need to heed good advice from other sources when it shows up. I'm wondering how many people who've developed osteoporosis would not have done so if they'd been taking their 2000mg calcium as elemental calcium instead of total calcium (citrate or any other). Does your orthopedic doc have any references I could go to, to read and check it out? Thanx, Carol A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 << 6000 is not safe according to my orthopedic doc - we have discussed this. > 2000 is about norm for 'us' even with mild osteo. > good luck deciding. >> > ------------------------ > Sue, > This is exactly the issue I'm trying to get the right answer to. Weil says > RDA's are for elemental calcium. Nature's Science (Vitalady's brand) rep says > they are not elemental. Weil is a doc; the rep is not. But my d.o. says like > your orthopedic doc, that 6000 of ANY calcium is too much. Now the bnf with > Ray seems to say the RDA is for elemental. It's enuf to drive a person nuts > trying to fig out what's right. > I would suggest you believe the FDA. The FDA lists the RDA amounts of each essential vitamin and mineral. Calcium in mineral form is elemental calcium. 6000 mg of elemental calcium would be way too much. 6000 mg of calcium citrate at 29% calcium would be only 1740 mg elemental calcium or way within the safe range, even more so because of our malabsorption. You can weigh the credilbility of Nature's Science rep by comparing the FDA regulations on labeling supplement content to the Nature's Science label content. It is as clear as a bell that the " Calcium Citrate 1000 mg 100% (DV) " is false and misleading. I would use that standard of accuracy to evaluate any other statements made by them. Ray Hooks For WLS nutrition info, visit http://www.bariatricsupplementsystem.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 In a message dated 9/20/02 1:44:24 PM Central Daylight Time, rhooks@... writes: I would suggest you believe the FDA. The FDA lists the RDA amounts of each essential vitamin and mineral. Calcium in mineral form is elemental calcium. 6000 mg of elemental calcium would be way too much. 6000 mg of calcium citrate at 29% calcium would be only 1740 mg elemental calcium or way within the safe range, even more so because of our malabsorption. You can weigh the credilbility of Nature's Science rep >> ----------------------------------- Ray, 1. If the FDA means ELEMENTAL, then why the heck don't they just SAY " elemental. " It would clear things up a lot. 2. I do not want to get into a battle over anyone's products or discuss personalities. My only interest is in accurate information. Thanx, Carol A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 ----------------------------------- > Ray, > 1. If the FDA means ELEMENTAL, then why the heck don't they just SAY > " elemental. " It would clear things up a lot. The FDA statement is quite clear. Calcium is calcium. How much more clearer can you get. Anyone who says that the FDA is not referring to elemental calcium is just blowing smoke to cover their own agenda. The term " elemental calcium " is used to differentiate plain calcium from a calcium compound such as calcium citrate. When the term " calcium " is used by itself, it is commonly understood to mean calcium in its elemental form. Ray Hooks For WLS nutrition info, visit http://www.bariatricsupplementsystem.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 ----------------------------------- > Ray, > 1. If the FDA means ELEMENTAL, then why the heck don't they just SAY > " elemental. " It would clear things up a lot. The FDA statement is quite clear. Calcium is calcium. How much more clearer can you get. Anyone who says that the FDA is not referring to elemental calcium is just blowing smoke to cover their own agenda. The term " elemental calcium " is used to differentiate plain calcium from a calcium compound such as calcium citrate. When the term " calcium " is used by itself, it is commonly understood to mean calcium in its elemental form. Ray Hooks For WLS nutrition info, visit http://www.bariatricsupplementsystem.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 I wasn't going to get into this because of the " recriminations " I suffered the last time, but I have to comment here. You wrote: " Anyone who says that the FDA is not referring to elemental calcium is just blowing smoke to cover their own agenda. " What agenda do you think we all have??? The FDA says CALCIUM. Not citrate, not carbonate, not elemental. Just calcium. We all realize that calcium is not calcium, which is why many of us choose to take citrate over carbonate or other forms, but it is still calcium. I don't believe that anyone who has disagreed with you has an agenda, as you seem to feel. None of us are trying to sell anything, as you are. None of us are trying to discredit any manufacturer or vendor, as you are. Many of us are loyal to one particular vendor - who has clearly taken the high road here by not allowing herself to be drawn into this - and use the brand of calcium that you are attempting to discredit. Fortunately for us, this brand of calcium is great - as labeled and as we are taking it. Ask any one of us who have been using it and have gotten good dexascan results. Obviously, taking 1500mg - 2000mg of calcium citrate is NOT inadequate for the majority of us. The dexascan results speak much louder than paragraphs copied off of other sites or out of books. Like (with a squiggle), I'm looking for results, not words. I want to know what worked for the " old-timers " who have been living this for years and years. I also want to know what didn't work, so I can avoid making the same mistakes. The majority of the information out there was not written for WLS'ers, so I need to see the results that other people have gotten. Instead of reading paragraphs of text that were copied and pasted from other places, I want to hear what other people have done and the results they've gotten. Again, like , I can look things up in a search engine. Any one of us can. What we can't do is know the experiences of other people, which is why we come here. To share experience. ---------------------------------------------- Terry Mayers 5DollarHosting.comT http://www.5dollarhosting.com (877)-838-HOST / .... because it shouldn't cost a fortune to make a fortune! ® Re: elemental calcium > ----------------------------------- > > Ray, > > 1. If the FDA means ELEMENTAL, then why the heck don't they just SAY > > " elemental. " It would clear things up a lot. > > The FDA statement is quite clear. Calcium is calcium. How much more > clearer can you get. The > term " elemental calcium " is used to differentiate plain calcium from a > calcium compound such as calcium citrate. When the term " calcium " is > used by itself, it is commonly understood to mean calcium in its > elemental form. > > Ray Hooks > For WLS nutrition info, visit > http://www.bariatricsupplementsystem.com > > > Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG > > Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 If I'm understanding this correctly " elemental calcium " is not a different form of calcium like calcium citrate or calcium carbonate. It is just the basic mineral calcium. That's why a lot of labels, which I've been looking at lately use the expression calcium, " as calcium citrate " or calcium " as calcium carbonate. " Substitute " elemental calcium as calcium citrate. " If I'm not mistaken, it's like butter. You can get a tub of whipped butter, you can get a tub of butter mixed with jelly, or you can get a stick of butter. They're all butter, but somewhere, after all is said and done, there's only such much " real butter " or " elemental butter " in the different tablespoons of this product. Or, it's like aloe vera gel. Smear x amount of aloe vera gel on whatever. X amount may contain a wide degree of variety in the real aloe vera stuff. I take Bluebonnet Calcium Citrate. The label says Calcium 1000mg 100%DV. In parentheses it says (calcium citrate) It doesn't say I'm getting 1000mg of calcium citrate. It says I'm getting 1000mg of calcium which happens to be in calcium citrate form. It says " Bluebonnet's Calcium Citrate caplets contain pure calcium IN a chelate of calcium citrate. " I think when they say pure calcium, they're referreing to elemental calcium. So I can infer from what I've read and see on this label that calcium is contained in different forms, the best one for use being calcium citrate. Just like there's butter in " whipped butter. " Or some amount of actual aloe vera in " aloe vera gel. " And BTW, I haven't ever seen Ray or Vitalady try to sell anything on this list, and I appreciate that. I don't understand why people can't just read the information and take it or leave it. We do with lots of other stuff. I also don't quite have a handle on why talking about calcium ends up so bitter and personal. It's just calcium. I suggest if people don't like what they read, they just disagree with it or ignore it and not turn it into such obvious personal vendettas. It would be a shame if this list blew up because we can't discuss calcium. Just my $.02 in Austin RNY April 1998 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 >>>>>>> The FDA says CALCIUM. Not citrate, not carbonate, not elemental. Just calcium. We all realize that calcium is not calcium, which is why many of us choose to take citrate over carbonate or other forms, but it is still calcium. >>>>> and does it not seem odd that not one of our doctors - orthopedic specialist - rheumatoid specials - endocrinologist or even our weight loss surgeons has warned us that calcium has to be elemental and that we need to take 4x the dose that the bottles tell us too??????? I realize we don't all have great docs and some are downright poor but someone has to graduate last in their class... anyhow why has not one single professional told any of us that we need to change our dose X4? I specifically asked my orthopedic doc about elemental and upping the dose and he said NO WAY - dont' do it. asking for trouble - throws off the balance in the kidneys, throws off the balance with the parathyroid and numerous other body functions. not to mention that I got results using 2000mg. of calcium citrate over the course of a year between my dexascans. so if it works and you see improvement then stick with it. besides I was the one who started this whole thing about 2.5yr. ago when I was diagnosed with osteo and began researching it and found that carbonate was Wrong. its just blossomed into a whole other animal since then. sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 >>>>>>> The FDA says CALCIUM. Not citrate, not carbonate, not elemental. Just calcium. We all realize that calcium is not calcium, which is why many of us choose to take citrate over carbonate or other forms, but it is still calcium. >>>>> and does it not seem odd that not one of our doctors - orthopedic specialist - rheumatoid specials - endocrinologist or even our weight loss surgeons has warned us that calcium has to be elemental and that we need to take 4x the dose that the bottles tell us too??????? I realize we don't all have great docs and some are downright poor but someone has to graduate last in their class... anyhow why has not one single professional told any of us that we need to change our dose X4? I specifically asked my orthopedic doc about elemental and upping the dose and he said NO WAY - dont' do it. asking for trouble - throws off the balance in the kidneys, throws off the balance with the parathyroid and numerous other body functions. not to mention that I got results using 2000mg. of calcium citrate over the course of a year between my dexascans. so if it works and you see improvement then stick with it. besides I was the one who started this whole thing about 2.5yr. ago when I was diagnosed with osteo and began researching it and found that carbonate was Wrong. its just blossomed into a whole other animal since then. sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 >>>>>>> The FDA says CALCIUM. Not citrate, not carbonate, not elemental. Just calcium. We all realize that calcium is not calcium, which is why many of us choose to take citrate over carbonate or other forms, but it is still calcium. >>>>> and does it not seem odd that not one of our doctors - orthopedic specialist - rheumatoid specials - endocrinologist or even our weight loss surgeons has warned us that calcium has to be elemental and that we need to take 4x the dose that the bottles tell us too??????? I realize we don't all have great docs and some are downright poor but someone has to graduate last in their class... anyhow why has not one single professional told any of us that we need to change our dose X4? I specifically asked my orthopedic doc about elemental and upping the dose and he said NO WAY - dont' do it. asking for trouble - throws off the balance in the kidneys, throws off the balance with the parathyroid and numerous other body functions. not to mention that I got results using 2000mg. of calcium citrate over the course of a year between my dexascans. so if it works and you see improvement then stick with it. besides I was the one who started this whole thing about 2.5yr. ago when I was diagnosed with osteo and began researching it and found that carbonate was Wrong. its just blossomed into a whole other animal since then. sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 The below quotes are cut and pasted from Dr Weil's site at http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html?command=TodayQA&pt=Question&questionI\ d=6020 Sounds to me like he is recommending calcium citrate, not elemental calcium. ----------- " You can prevent both osteopenia and osteoporosis with regular weight-bearing exercise, a balanced diet (go easy on protein: too much can cause calcium and other minerals to leach out of the body), and a daily food intake of 1,000 to 1,500 mg of calcium. " and " If you don't get enough calcium from food, take calcium citrate, the calcium supplement most easily absorbed. To increase absorption of calcium from foods or supplements, you should supplement with 400 IU of vitamin D a day; seniors need 800 IU. " ---------------------- As to the government RDA's... just read the labels of all the calcium enhanced products on the market. Most will state that the calcium added is in the form of calcium CARBONATE, not elemental or citrate. If the government meant elemental calcium, they sure wouldn't accept all these products that simply have added calcium carbonate as meeting their standards. Chrissie shihtzumom@... http://users.snip.net/~shihtzumom My WLS Journey: http://millennium.fortunecity.com/doddington/691/WLS/this_is_me.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Tuesdynite@... ...snip...First of all, I'm not sure ANYONE knows whether Kushner or the gov't RDA's are based on just calcium or on elemental calcium. I DO KNOW, however, that Dr. Weil, whose opinion I respect very highly, and whose newsletter I subscribe to, DOES recommend the calcium dosages be ELEMENTAL calcium. ....snip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 The below quotes are cut and pasted from Dr Weil's site at http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html?command=TodayQA&pt=Question&questionI\ d=6020 Sounds to me like he is recommending calcium citrate, not elemental calcium. ----------- " You can prevent both osteopenia and osteoporosis with regular weight-bearing exercise, a balanced diet (go easy on protein: too much can cause calcium and other minerals to leach out of the body), and a daily food intake of 1,000 to 1,500 mg of calcium. " and " If you don't get enough calcium from food, take calcium citrate, the calcium supplement most easily absorbed. To increase absorption of calcium from foods or supplements, you should supplement with 400 IU of vitamin D a day; seniors need 800 IU. " ---------------------- As to the government RDA's... just read the labels of all the calcium enhanced products on the market. Most will state that the calcium added is in the form of calcium CARBONATE, not elemental or citrate. If the government meant elemental calcium, they sure wouldn't accept all these products that simply have added calcium carbonate as meeting their standards. Chrissie shihtzumom@... http://users.snip.net/~shihtzumom My WLS Journey: http://millennium.fortunecity.com/doddington/691/WLS/this_is_me.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Tuesdynite@... ...snip...First of all, I'm not sure ANYONE knows whether Kushner or the gov't RDA's are based on just calcium or on elemental calcium. I DO KNOW, however, that Dr. Weil, whose opinion I respect very highly, and whose newsletter I subscribe to, DOES recommend the calcium dosages be ELEMENTAL calcium. ....snip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 The below quotes are cut and pasted from Dr Weil's site at http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html?command=TodayQA&pt=Question&questionI\ d=6020 Sounds to me like he is recommending calcium citrate, not elemental calcium. ----------- " You can prevent both osteopenia and osteoporosis with regular weight-bearing exercise, a balanced diet (go easy on protein: too much can cause calcium and other minerals to leach out of the body), and a daily food intake of 1,000 to 1,500 mg of calcium. " and " If you don't get enough calcium from food, take calcium citrate, the calcium supplement most easily absorbed. To increase absorption of calcium from foods or supplements, you should supplement with 400 IU of vitamin D a day; seniors need 800 IU. " ---------------------- As to the government RDA's... just read the labels of all the calcium enhanced products on the market. Most will state that the calcium added is in the form of calcium CARBONATE, not elemental or citrate. If the government meant elemental calcium, they sure wouldn't accept all these products that simply have added calcium carbonate as meeting their standards. Chrissie shihtzumom@... http://users.snip.net/~shihtzumom My WLS Journey: http://millennium.fortunecity.com/doddington/691/WLS/this_is_me.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Tuesdynite@... ...snip...First of all, I'm not sure ANYONE knows whether Kushner or the gov't RDA's are based on just calcium or on elemental calcium. I DO KNOW, however, that Dr. Weil, whose opinion I respect very highly, and whose newsletter I subscribe to, DOES recommend the calcium dosages be ELEMENTAL calcium. ....snip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 In a message dated 9/21/02 3:33:17 AM Central Daylight Time, rhooks@... writes: << When the term " calcium " is used by itself, it is commonly understood to mean calcium in its elemental form. --------------------------------- Well, it may be commonly understood by professionals and those in the bizniz, but certainly not by the lay person. Bcuz if it was, there wouldn't be so much argument about it on these lists!! Carol A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 In a message dated 9/21/02 11:21:27 AM Central Daylight Time, shihtzumom@... writes: << The below quotes are cut and pasted from Dr Weil's site at http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html?command=TodayQA&pt=Question&questio nId=6020 Sounds to me like he is recommending calcium citrate, not elemental calcium. ----------- " You can prevent both osteopenia and osteoporosis with regular weight-bearing exercise, a balanced diet (go easy on protein: too much can cause calcium and other minerals to leach out of the body), and a daily food intake of 1,000 to 1,500 mg of calcium. >> ---------------------------------------****************************----------- ---------------- He DOES recommend calcium citrate as the most easily absorbed form of calcium; however, he also DOES recommend that you take enuf calcium citrate to get your dosage as elemental calcium. No matter what type of calcium u take (citrate, maltate, carbonate, etc) they all have elemental calcium in them, just in differing percentages. Please refer to the following article: Dr. Weil on Calcium (from 3/02 issue of " Self-Healing " ) " Could you be taking the recommended dose of calcium but still not getting the right amount? Yes, if you're not careful to check the amount of elemental calcium in your supplement. Elemental calcium refers to the " pure " calcium in a supplement. The amount of elemental calcium may not always be obvious, since calcium supple-ments contain salts (combined forms) of calcium and other elements. " My supplemental calcium recommendations refer to the amount of ELEMENTAL calcium, from either calcium citrate or carbonate. To make sure you're getting the right dose of elemental calcium from a supplement, check the label. For example, products that say they contain " 500 mg of elemental calcium, " " 500 mg of calcium " or " 500 mg of calcium AS calcium citrate " (or carbonate) will all deliver the same amount of elemental calcium. " But products whose labels read " 500 mg of calcium citrate " (or carbonate) DON'T contain that amount of ELEMENTAL calcium. Instead they have 500 mg of calcium AND citrate (or calcium and carbonate) combined. Because you'd have to take too many pills to get 500 mg of pure calcium from these products, I would avoid them. " Regards, Carol A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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