The gospel of Ceep, about bounceback (long)

October 29, 2002

In a message dated 10/29/02 3:15:49 PM, Graduate-OSSG writes:

<< This is just to add my name to the list of gaining for no apparent reason

at 26 months....

hugz,

~denise >>

add my name

I have 20# bounceback.

blood sugars still good. I am grateful

I am alive. I am grateful

I was near death before. So near. Half blind. Lost feeling in legs.

Amputation was on the list of future surgeries.

I care very deeply about the feelings of others here who are afraid of what

is happening to their bodies 18-36 mos post op. I know it is scary, and it ws

so nice to be ten-20 pounds less as long as it was healthy. But there was

small print in the details about gb. It shows that this has a likelihood of

occuring. It doesn't make it happier, but it ought not be CONFUSED with what

used to happen to us long ago when 10 meant twenty, twenty meant 40, 40 meant

60 and 60 meant 120. It is not that. It is about 1 10-15% gain. Sorry, so

sorry; it is like the film awakenings, where people come back to life for a

time, bu then return to the state tey were in. But we are NOT LIKE THAT; we

cm to a certain unheard of, weird experience of being a certn weight and then

gained a bit. How can I tell you, it is okay and have you believe me, that

this was in the fine print, that we know almost nothing about how metabolism

really works, that each body has its reasons. Please, at the last, do not let

yourself be consumed by panic. The bounceback, if it is JUST bounceback is

normal in most, not ideal, nt in the fantasy, ut it is normal for many, many.

Now is the time to be vigilant rather than panicked. Just take it a day at a

time. If there is not physical disorder or eating disorder, the bounce back

is normal.

But, please just for a second, think about this. Truly, each soul is

different from the next. Some of us (not me) will never have a moment of

anxiety, will hit their goal weight and stay there. God bless them. But God

bless us too, for we are the laborers in the orchard. Excuse me, but evil

ceep I can feel her coming on: You know, here's my message: do whatever you

want, to come as close as you can, to get the outcome you want. We are not

sheep. We are people. I have heard so much sheep-dip about what a post-op

2-10 years out is supposed to do or not, ought to, has to, must do --or else,

(and much of this hoo-ha is always dripping with sanctimonious do-do about if

you only do this and this, then that and that great golden thing WILL SURELY

HAPPEN.) Well, there is no garuntree that any number of things will SURELY

HAPPEN because the body and its workings are mysterious, and docs are more

like mechanics than like mystics, and that's the way it should be--and those

who are hghly intuitive and mechanical are the cream of the crop in my opinion

I cannot understand too well why we all want to believe that there is some

uniformity of outcome just becuase everyone begins witha similar set of

circumstnaces. You know when I was in 4-H as a kid, one of the things that

amazed me was we all started out with a calf, and a year later, the animals

were all different sizes and shapes. In bake-offs we all started with the

same cups of flour and the same ovens and the same eggs, and there were 300

fricking version of yellow cake afterward. We all started with the same yard

of boring blue serge and all followed the same exact pattern and used the

same scissors and used the same kind of sewing machine and every apron looked

DIFFERENT. How could that be? I mean, those calves were often from the same

mothers and certainly fathers. We shared the same 50 pound sack of flour.

Those eggs were fro the same brood. Those patterns for aprons were absolutely

identical. I know some want to say, well operator differences, but you know

what, one cup of flour can have more gluten than the next cup, one yard of

fabric cut from the sme olt as the one before can have far more stretch on

the diagonal than the one right before it, one egg can have more yok than the

next by weight. You can say 'operator difference,' or operator error' all day

and all night; the thing is, the differences in the main are inside each

individual. It isn't a mral issue, it isn't a 'operator ssue' most of the

time. It is luck. Dumb luck. We can increase luck by doing everything

possible that WORKS JUST FOR US. Beyond that, it is luck. Just dumb luck.

Just my two cent's worth, but I think there should be something tattooed on

the surgeon's foreheads so we could all see it, " mileage may differ. " The

info about bounceback and who can and can't eat this or that or digest this

or that, actually is said by the most ethical surgeons, but lots of patients

don't read it, hear it, see it, pay attentionl or read it late, or misread it

or, or , or.....

I see that many of the bounceback reports seem to come from people who have

rny and distal also, but less often it seems, on the other hand it seems that

extreme distals are done less, ta least currently, so we don't know. (And I

am not counting VBG). But there are good reasons for both surgeries, and

health is BOTH HELPED AND COMPROMISED BY BOTH, one to a lesser degree in one

way than the other. One may seem to give a 'better' weight loss. One may seem

to give 'better' nutrition. What is your choice? What can you live with?

JIMHO It never, never, never NEVER should have been called WLS. It should

have been called what it is, a life-saving surgical intervention whose side

effect is a certain amount of loss of avoirdupois.

Each kind of gb surgery has its tremendous downsides. Nutritionally, socially

(I did win the International sharpei competition in the grandmother heat last

week), medically. But, I came here to this place, as many of you did too, to

save my life not to salve the culture's ego about how I look. I came to this

decision, as many of you did too, to be able to live without being a frickin

body bag that everyone had to wheel around, to not be like home plate in a

wheelchair, blind, without legs, the pity of every able soul, and reluctantly

taken care of by family. I came here, like you, because I believed that God

was asking me to bring more to this poor suffering world than just my

freeking aches and pains and fears and profound ill health. GB gave e a

chance to do what I think God made me for.

Those of you who know me here, know that I nearly lost my life post gb

because of a massive misdiagnosed infection that took my spleen--as though I

needed to lose one more vital organ. I risked my health to gain health. So

did all of you. Is there a size that is more lovable, a dress size that is

supposed to be the equal of our I.Q minus the first digit?

Doesn't it make sense that if a person begins to be thin, that they might

also " catch " the MASSIVE cultural disease of our time-- the

over-preoccupation with weight, and body size and shape? Does it ever occur

that this overage steals more of women's souls away from them than anything

else I can think of. Doesn't it make sense to resist this? Until there really

is a cure for shutting off the obesity gene, really one, not just some

medicine that gives you side effects that ruin your heart, kidneys or liver,

it seems there are several things to do to remain reasonably sane--and those

of you who know me know I am an artist, a painter and photographer and love

beauty and that means cool clothes (preferably black leather) and beautiful

looking people of all kinds--(I tend to see beauty as vitality, interesting

personality, sexual aliveness, and creativity inherent) so don't be trying to

sew me into some weird projection of a narrow-minded so and so.... (grin)

Ceep's Sanity list

1. stay as is and be careful and loving with the body and see how it goes

(and/or). get with the program, protein, water, exercise. As you do this,

also Go live life. (and/or)

2. Go get scoped, doped, pee up a rope, whatever it takes to find out if your

fears of SLD are true or not (and/or). If they are , do what you need to do.

Go live life. (and/or)

3. Face that you have an eating disorder that has nothing to do with Gb; it

was there before gb and it is still there. Deal with it finally. Do the best

you can. Certainly go live life. Do not wait until you re " perfect. " (and/or)

4. Seek a revision to something else if you feel you want to weigh the risk

versus the benefit. live life in the meantime (and/or)

5. become an activist who does not allow bariatric surgeons to continue to do

the happy dance that fails egregiously to tell the patient more than once

about the bounceback factor that occurs for most, about the incomplete loss

of weight that often happens for those with diabetes and other variant

factors, about the real truth about eating disorders and that eating

disorders need SEPARATE treatment, about that there are no guaranties about

weightloss, only a high possibility of greatly improving one's health. Live

life in the meantime. (and/or)

6. see that every soul is COMPLETELY ENTITLED to live a full life right NOW

and to enjoy happiness completely and to reach out for all kinds of good

things even though you are imperfect, anxiety ridden, overwhelmed, have a big

shiny zit anywhere on your face or bottom. Go live life-- or else you will d

isplease God who created you to enjoy the permitted pleasures on earth--of

which there are thousands...(and/or)

7. and to weigh far more HOW YOU FEEL health-wise everyday than how much YOU

bones weigh and the flesh over them. (and/or)

8. and to encourage others to do their best and to find their own way and

their own peace, in whatever way they want and to cheer them on even if their

way is not your way. (and/or)

9. stop being so greedy for body and be greedy for living by the lights of

the soul far more so (and/or)

10. forgive me, but some of the surgeons want to be celebrities, did anyone

think ego only occurs to what? just lawyer, or just politicians, or whomever.

No, it happens to docs too, and when I read in the bariatric conference

syllabi about docs being concerned that their female patients have sexual

counter-transferences to them, and oh, my, what to do about THAT? you know

that health has taken a back seat and something else is on the agenda, and

that the covert sheep dip is what contributes to gb women's anxieties about

how much they weigh and how they look. Think about these things. Think about

health versus marketing. Think about health versus cultural octopii that

latch onto every thing a woman might want to hold to her own heart in her own

way.

It is true that you and I have a right to be free and lovely and bring our

talents to the world, and to learn to love through the hard parts. THIS is

one of the hard parts. My last words are these; if you have functional

trouble you need a doc. If you have eating disorders, please, see a shrink

who specializes in such, and/or pray to your God to have this lifted from

you, but deal with it and keep dealing with it--there will be good days and

not so hot ones, keep going. If you are taken by the cultural maelstrom about

how you look, get a grip. There are no more black and gray and brown tents

for women over size 10. There are gorgeous clothes in fabulous colors and

fabrics in every size. This is definitely my only two cent's worth, maybe

even one cent's worth, and I only ask one thing

Do not flame me. I am speaking my truest heart.

One of the things I have wondered since this thread began was shouldn't all

this anecdotal evidence of late regain be given to the docs who are touting

all this never happens with THEIR patients?

And shouldn't it be more clearly given to pre-ops, so they know before hand

that they are making their health better but not purchasing along with this

the American obsessive dream of 1 digit dress sizes? Or would that interfere

with a lot of doc's marketing?

I've been on this list for years now, and I have seen mostly life come

better, greater, clearer for people here. I sometimes still get tears in my

eyes when a new person posts about waht they have been through. But I have,

we all have, seen death come too for brave souls who reached for the gold

ring and lost on the OR table or shortly thereafter. This is a tough,

difficult road because it is a tough difficult road. For those who sail well

in constant fair winds, they are blessed. But those of us who do not have

these advantages, are not cursed. We are just challenged. And that is just

the way it is; Are we mice or men? Are we women or wombats? (grin)

yes, I know, I know, I am tired too. So what. Keep going. Hang in there. We

are all walking along together no matter our differences in size, shape,

outcome. We are bound to each other by heroic risk-taking not by clothing

size.

evil ceep has definitely put more than her two cents worth in here

no lack of love,

ceep

October 29, 2002

In a message dated 10/30/2002 1:04:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,

lacorona@... writes:

<< This is a tough,

difficult road because it is a tough difficult road. For those who sail well

in constant fair winds, they are blessed. But those of us who do not have

these advantages, are not cursed. We are just challenged. And that is just

the way it is; Are we mice or men? Are we women or wombats? (grin) >>

What wonderful words of wisdom and love. I spent over an hour yesterday

composing my thoughts on this matter and in the end wadded it up into the

cyberspace trashbin cause I couldn't get the words even close to right.

Two or three times a year I drive through Memphis, right past St Jude's

children's hospital. I have some experience with fund raising for that

institution, and if you've ever wondered about life being unfair, a tour of

that place will humble you right to your knees. I have a terrible fear of

being seriously burned, just reading accounts of burn units makes me cry. As

I rail against fate about my slow weight loss, about still weighing 222

pounds, there is a part of me that is saying " PULEEZE get off your pity pot

and on with life. " So I give myself a kick in the pants, realize that I have

no promise of tomorrow, therefore better not waste today. It's hard. I make

it harder than it needs to be sometimes. Inner reflection and self

examination are important, but sometimes we get so twisted up in ourselves,

we become blind to the big picture and lose our perspective.

I am sick with envy when reading about the ones who get below goal, who are

comfortable in their single digit sizes. I fear never getting below 200

pounds or regaining back to 300. I still wrestle with my eating disorder.

But I really try to let go of the anger, the impatience, and feel grateful

for the improvements losing 85 pounds have brought. Some patients, by virtue

of luck, surgical procedure, or discipline have phenomenal success. Some of

those are arrogant and condescending. Some patients, not so lucky, not so

malabsorbing, not so disciplined never get close to goal. Some of those are

angry and lashing out like wounded bears. My feelings have been seriously

hurt by folks from both camps this week. I hope we don't have a " class war. "

By far the most shocking thing I've seen over the last year is on a couple of

different " support " groups, there have been women who have lost 150 pounds

and then referred to other women as fat, ugly, stupid, bitches, etc.....when

called on it, those women declared that any fat woman was undesirable to

anyone, and other ignorant babbling. The majority of the group just sat

silent, I could not tell if in shock, silent agreement, or shame.

If push comes to shove, I'll stay fat anyday over becoming cruel and stupid.

But if I get a choice, I'd like to be thin AND nice .

B

October 29, 2002