Re: RE: vitamins and minerals

[Guest guest]

Thanks for putting that so easily to understand Jerri -- that was my point

and I'm sorry if I up-set people in trying to make it :-(

Because most people do share -- " This is what I did, this is what happened,

this is what I changed and these were the results.... " sort of sharing then

we have a whole list of " REAL " people, living daily with this surgery who

went before us to learn from (not a bunch of technical jargon!!! Just real

people, real results)

The tums thing, as many have reported post-op not only doesn't help the

bones but can in fact contribute big time to kidney stones (as with other

carbonate calcium's.)

What " I " have and believe in is a whole list of post-op people with 2, 5,

8, 12 years and more post op who use the citrate and come in with excellent

bone scans (and that IS the point...) keeping our bones in the best health

possible.

To me, the exchange and sharing of " individual experience " is what is

critical to all of us and that is what " support group " IMO means... share

what you did, what results you got... and so on... that is helpful

information to all of us. Like you, I don't think any of us can come in a

professional capacity or pretending to be professional and tell each other

what to do and what not to do... we can share what we've done and what

results we got from what we did and that is about the only " long term study "

that we have for people of people who are living life long term with WLS.

The rest is just jargon ~smile~

If what your doing works then keep doing it right?

But, I will apologize to everyone for my rather curt post -- guess it was a

PMS moment for me and I didn't mean to offend or hurt anyone -- you made the

point much better than I.

hugz,

~denise

> What I find that is most confusing on this subject is that my surgeon

> told me to take 2 Tums a day for my calcium needs, which I did for 3

> months post-surgery. Then I started reading that this type of calcium

> was not good for wls patients as we don't absorb it as well and that we

> should be using the citrate form. This made perfect sense to me, so I

> changed to that and then had my dexascan done, which showed I am in the

> high normal range. Now someone is saying that the citrate form of

> calcium is not what we need either - that we should be taking something

> else. So what is a person supposed to do? It's very confusing and very

> frustrating!!

>

> I will continue to take the calcium citrate as I have been doing for the

> past 10 months because it's what is working FOR ME and that's what is

> important to me. Everybody is different and what works for you won't

> necessarily work for me and visa versa. I feel that this is what

> everyone should do. Before having this surgery, I never listened to my

> body. Now I really listen to it and I give it what it needs. And so

> far I must be doing something right because all my labs have come back

> great, so I have no intention of changing anything (except for trying to

> increase my protein intake by finding a protein supplement that I can

> live with).

>

> As a new member, I find it very confusing when people argue over what

> kind of supplements I should be taking without taking into account ME

> and MY BODY. Obviously the calcium citrate is working great for me or

> my dexascan wouldn't have shown me to be in the high normal range. And

> the Flintstone multi-vitamins have all the minerals that I need because

> my lab works have all come back great. I can't even imagine what a

> newly post-op person is thinking when they are lurking on this group and

> they see all the conflicting discussions and the technical jargon. What

> would be nice is for people to post what is working for them and then

> let the rest of us decide whether we should try it or not and whether it

> is working for us or not instead of being told that we are in the danger

> zone because we are taking the wrong type of something (in their

> opinion).

>

> I am certainly not a stupid person, but all this technical jargon about

> calcium and the other minerals just confuses me more - it certainly

> doesn't help me decide what is best for ME and MY BODY. JMHO

>

> Jerri in MI

>

> Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

>

> Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for putting that so easily to understand Jerri -- that was my point

and I'm sorry if I up-set people in trying to make it :-(

Because most people do share -- " This is what I did, this is what happened,

this is what I changed and these were the results.... " sort of sharing then

we have a whole list of " REAL " people, living daily with this surgery who

went before us to learn from (not a bunch of technical jargon!!! Just real

people, real results)

The tums thing, as many have reported post-op not only doesn't help the

bones but can in fact contribute big time to kidney stones (as with other

carbonate calcium's.)

What " I " have and believe in is a whole list of post-op people with 2, 5,

8, 12 years and more post op who use the citrate and come in with excellent

bone scans (and that IS the point...) keeping our bones in the best health

possible.

To me, the exchange and sharing of " individual experience " is what is

critical to all of us and that is what " support group " IMO means... share

what you did, what results you got... and so on... that is helpful

information to all of us. Like you, I don't think any of us can come in a

professional capacity or pretending to be professional and tell each other

what to do and what not to do... we can share what we've done and what

results we got from what we did and that is about the only " long term study "

that we have for people of people who are living life long term with WLS.

The rest is just jargon ~smile~

If what your doing works then keep doing it right?

But, I will apologize to everyone for my rather curt post -- guess it was a

PMS moment for me and I didn't mean to offend or hurt anyone -- you made the

point much better than I.

hugz,

~denise

> What I find that is most confusing on this subject is that my surgeon

> told me to take 2 Tums a day for my calcium needs, which I did for 3

> months post-surgery. Then I started reading that this type of calcium

> was not good for wls patients as we don't absorb it as well and that we

> should be using the citrate form. This made perfect sense to me, so I

> changed to that and then had my dexascan done, which showed I am in the

> high normal range. Now someone is saying that the citrate form of

> calcium is not what we need either - that we should be taking something

> else. So what is a person supposed to do? It's very confusing and very

> frustrating!!

>

> I will continue to take the calcium citrate as I have been doing for the

> past 10 months because it's what is working FOR ME and that's what is

> important to me. Everybody is different and what works for you won't

> necessarily work for me and visa versa. I feel that this is what

> everyone should do. Before having this surgery, I never listened to my

> body. Now I really listen to it and I give it what it needs. And so

> far I must be doing something right because all my labs have come back

> great, so I have no intention of changing anything (except for trying to

> increase my protein intake by finding a protein supplement that I can

> live with).

>

> As a new member, I find it very confusing when people argue over what

> kind of supplements I should be taking without taking into account ME

> and MY BODY. Obviously the calcium citrate is working great for me or

> my dexascan wouldn't have shown me to be in the high normal range. And

> the Flintstone multi-vitamins have all the minerals that I need because

> my lab works have all come back great. I can't even imagine what a

> newly post-op person is thinking when they are lurking on this group and

> they see all the conflicting discussions and the technical jargon. What

> would be nice is for people to post what is working for them and then

> let the rest of us decide whether we should try it or not and whether it

> is working for us or not instead of being told that we are in the danger

> zone because we are taking the wrong type of something (in their

> opinion).

>

> I am certainly not a stupid person, but all this technical jargon about

> calcium and the other minerals just confuses me more - it certainly

> doesn't help me decide what is best for ME and MY BODY. JMHO

>

> Jerri in MI

>

> Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

>

> Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for putting that so easily to understand Jerri -- that was my point

and I'm sorry if I up-set people in trying to make it :-(

Because most people do share -- " This is what I did, this is what happened,

this is what I changed and these were the results.... " sort of sharing then

we have a whole list of " REAL " people, living daily with this surgery who

went before us to learn from (not a bunch of technical jargon!!! Just real

people, real results)

The tums thing, as many have reported post-op not only doesn't help the

bones but can in fact contribute big time to kidney stones (as with other

carbonate calcium's.)

What " I " have and believe in is a whole list of post-op people with 2, 5,

8, 12 years and more post op who use the citrate and come in with excellent

bone scans (and that IS the point...) keeping our bones in the best health

possible.

To me, the exchange and sharing of " individual experience " is what is

critical to all of us and that is what " support group " IMO means... share

what you did, what results you got... and so on... that is helpful

information to all of us. Like you, I don't think any of us can come in a

professional capacity or pretending to be professional and tell each other

what to do and what not to do... we can share what we've done and what

results we got from what we did and that is about the only " long term study "

that we have for people of people who are living life long term with WLS.

The rest is just jargon ~smile~

If what your doing works then keep doing it right?

But, I will apologize to everyone for my rather curt post -- guess it was a

PMS moment for me and I didn't mean to offend or hurt anyone -- you made the

point much better than I.

hugz,

~denise

> What I find that is most confusing on this subject is that my surgeon

> told me to take 2 Tums a day for my calcium needs, which I did for 3

> months post-surgery. Then I started reading that this type of calcium

> was not good for wls patients as we don't absorb it as well and that we

> should be using the citrate form. This made perfect sense to me, so I

> changed to that and then had my dexascan done, which showed I am in the

> high normal range. Now someone is saying that the citrate form of

> calcium is not what we need either - that we should be taking something

> else. So what is a person supposed to do? It's very confusing and very

> frustrating!!

>

> I will continue to take the calcium citrate as I have been doing for the

> past 10 months because it's what is working FOR ME and that's what is

> important to me. Everybody is different and what works for you won't

> necessarily work for me and visa versa. I feel that this is what

> everyone should do. Before having this surgery, I never listened to my

> body. Now I really listen to it and I give it what it needs. And so

> far I must be doing something right because all my labs have come back

> great, so I have no intention of changing anything (except for trying to

> increase my protein intake by finding a protein supplement that I can

> live with).

>

> As a new member, I find it very confusing when people argue over what

> kind of supplements I should be taking without taking into account ME

> and MY BODY. Obviously the calcium citrate is working great for me or

> my dexascan wouldn't have shown me to be in the high normal range. And

> the Flintstone multi-vitamins have all the minerals that I need because

> my lab works have all come back great. I can't even imagine what a

> newly post-op person is thinking when they are lurking on this group and

> they see all the conflicting discussions and the technical jargon. What

> would be nice is for people to post what is working for them and then

> let the rest of us decide whether we should try it or not and whether it

> is working for us or not instead of being told that we are in the danger

> zone because we are taking the wrong type of something (in their

> opinion).

>

> I am certainly not a stupid person, but all this technical jargon about

> calcium and the other minerals just confuses me more - it certainly

> doesn't help me decide what is best for ME and MY BODY. JMHO

>

> Jerri in MI

>

> Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

>

> Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Personally, I enjoy a variety of posts - some based on science, some on

personal experiences. I've learned from many people on this list. I've

learned most from people I tend to disagree with. They challenge my thinking

more.

One thing that helps me a lot is when someone says " I used to think this, but

this piece of evidence or experience changed my thinking. " That is much more

meaningful to me than " see I'm still right. "

Occasionally, I find it a little irritating when people paste really big

chunks of text into posts. The reason is that it seems like it would be

better to include a link, and an offer to send the info to anyone who

couldn't access it. I'd rather hear someone's conclusions i.e. " based on the

study summarized at this link .... I now believe that it's best to take

calcium in form xyz. "

One time I had a job where everyone hated everybody else, and they had us get

Meyers-Briggs personality tests. I'm high on the intuitive, which means I

sort of see things in big pictures and then fill in details. Most people are

sensers. They believe what they see, feel, etc. They look at the details,

then make conclusions. Anyway, the point of that is that there are basic

personality differences at work here. When people give the results from

studies or type at length from medical textbooks, they're not trying to annoy

us intuiters. They're just responding to the world in a way that makes sense

to them.

This is just my 2 cents. I'm not the moderator, so everyone is welcome to

tell me to blow it out my ear.

in St. Louis

ENTP, for anyone who knows about Meyers Briggs

[Guest guest]

Personally, I enjoy a variety of posts - some based on science, some on

personal experiences. I've learned from many people on this list. I've

learned most from people I tend to disagree with. They challenge my thinking

more.

One thing that helps me a lot is when someone says " I used to think this, but

this piece of evidence or experience changed my thinking. " That is much more

meaningful to me than " see I'm still right. "

Occasionally, I find it a little irritating when people paste really big

chunks of text into posts. The reason is that it seems like it would be

better to include a link, and an offer to send the info to anyone who

couldn't access it. I'd rather hear someone's conclusions i.e. " based on the

study summarized at this link .... I now believe that it's best to take

calcium in form xyz. "

One time I had a job where everyone hated everybody else, and they had us get

Meyers-Briggs personality tests. I'm high on the intuitive, which means I

sort of see things in big pictures and then fill in details. Most people are

sensers. They believe what they see, feel, etc. They look at the details,

then make conclusions. Anyway, the point of that is that there are basic

personality differences at work here. When people give the results from

studies or type at length from medical textbooks, they're not trying to annoy

us intuiters. They're just responding to the world in a way that makes sense

to them.

This is just my 2 cents. I'm not the moderator, so everyone is welcome to

tell me to blow it out my ear.

in St. Louis

ENTP, for anyone who knows about Meyers Briggs

[Guest guest]

Personally, I enjoy a variety of posts - some based on science, some on

personal experiences. I've learned from many people on this list. I've

learned most from people I tend to disagree with. They challenge my thinking

more.

One thing that helps me a lot is when someone says " I used to think this, but

this piece of evidence or experience changed my thinking. " That is much more

meaningful to me than " see I'm still right. "

Occasionally, I find it a little irritating when people paste really big

chunks of text into posts. The reason is that it seems like it would be

better to include a link, and an offer to send the info to anyone who

couldn't access it. I'd rather hear someone's conclusions i.e. " based on the

study summarized at this link .... I now believe that it's best to take

calcium in form xyz. "

One time I had a job where everyone hated everybody else, and they had us get

Meyers-Briggs personality tests. I'm high on the intuitive, which means I

sort of see things in big pictures and then fill in details. Most people are

sensers. They believe what they see, feel, etc. They look at the details,

then make conclusions. Anyway, the point of that is that there are basic

personality differences at work here. When people give the results from

studies or type at length from medical textbooks, they're not trying to annoy

us intuiters. They're just responding to the world in a way that makes sense

to them.

This is just my 2 cents. I'm not the moderator, so everyone is welcome to

tell me to blow it out my ear.

in St. Louis

ENTP, for anyone who knows about Meyers Briggs

[Guest guest]

How about being 23 years out...does this constitute any

experience with calcium intake?

I have been watching this debate going back and forth for

some time now, and have entered into the dicussion, here and

there.

I am one of those POST RNY patients that was advised to take

(2) tums to supplement my calcium deficiency.

Calcium is a mineral. It is marketed in several different

combinations. 85% of accross the counter calcium supplements

are Calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate contains 40%

elemental calcium with it

The highest level of elemental calcium that I have seen

available, processed in any other form is 21 - 29% (Ray

Hooks can verify which, process).

I was 4 years POST RNY, when I was informed by my doctor,

that I should be taking in at least 1000mg of elemental

calcium a day.

It is true, that taking calcium (no matter what process)

will also enhance the creation of kidney stones, for anyone,

so the intake of calcium must also be augmented with water

to help dilute and curb the formation of these stones.

I have been and am still taking TUMS as my primary source of

elemental calcium. Each tablet provides 200mg of elemental

calcium...

My dexescan in July, was normal....this works for me.

I take 3 sets of TUMS each and every day. I maintain at

least an hour between taking my perscriptiond iron and my

calcium supplement, as they both compete for absorbtion, if

taken together and you can suffer a deficiency of both if

taken within the same time frame.

Just my .02 cents worth

///Bob

RE: RE: Vitamins and minerals

> Thanks for putting that so easily to understand Jerri --

that was my point

> and I'm sorry if I up-set people in trying to make it :-(

>

> Because most people do share -- " This is what I did, this

is what happened,

> this is what I changed and these were the results.... "

sort of sharing then

> we have a whole list of " REAL " people, living daily with

this surgery who

> went before us to learn from (not a bunch of technical

jargon!!! Just real

> people, real results)

>

> The tums thing, as many have reported post-op not only

doesn't help the

> bones but can in fact contribute big time to kidney stones

(as with other

> carbonate calcium's.)

>

> What " I " have and believe in is a whole list of post-op

people with 2, 5,

> 8, 12 years and more post op who use the citrate and come

in with excellent

> bone scans (and that IS the point...) keeping our bones in

the best health

> possible.

>

> To me, the exchange and sharing of " individual experience "

is what is

> critical to all of us and that is what " support group " IMO

means... share

> what you did, what results you got... and so on... that is

helpful

> information to all of us. Like you, I don't think any of

us can come in a

> professional capacity or pretending to be professional and

tell each other

> what to do and what not to do... we can share what we've

done and what

> results we got from what we did and that is about the only

" long term study "

> that we have for people of people who are living life long

term with WLS.

> The rest is just jargon ~smile~

>

> If what your doing works then keep doing it right?

>

> But, I will apologize to everyone for my rather curt

post -- guess it was a

> PMS moment for me and I didn't mean to offend or hurt

anyone -- you made the

> point much better than I.

>

> hugz,

> ~denise

>

> > What I find that is most confusing on this subject is

that my surgeon

> > told me to take 2 Tums a day for my calcium needs, which

I did for 3

> > months post-surgery. Then I started reading that this

type of calcium

> > was not good for wls patients as we don't absorb it as

well and that we

> > should be using the citrate form. This made perfect

sense to me, so I

> > changed to that and then had my dexascan done, which

showed I am in the

> > high normal range. Now someone is saying that the

citrate form of

> > calcium is not what we need either - that we should be

taking something

> > else. So what is a person supposed to do? It's very

confusing and very

> > frustrating!!

> >

> > I will continue to take the calcium citrate as I have

been doing for the

> > past 10 months because it's what is working FOR ME and

that's what is

> > important to me. Everybody is different and what works

for you won't

> > necessarily work for me and visa versa. I feel that

this is what

> > everyone should do. Before having this surgery, I never

listened to my

> > body. Now I really listen to it and I give it what it

needs. And so

> > far I must be doing something right because all my labs

have come back

> > great, so I have no intention of changing anything

(except for trying to

> > increase my protein intake by finding a protein

supplement that I can

> > live with).

> >

> > As a new member, I find it very confusing when people

argue over what

> > kind of supplements I should be taking without taking

into account ME

> > and MY BODY. Obviously the calcium citrate is working

great for me or

> > my dexascan wouldn't have shown me to be in the high

normal range. And

> > the Flintstone multi-vitamins have all the minerals that

I need because

> > my lab works have all come back great. I can't even

imagine what a

> > newly post-op person is thinking when they are lurking

on this group and

> > they see all the conflicting discussions and the

technical jargon. What

> > would be nice is for people to post what is working for

them and then

> > let the rest of us decide whether we should try it or

not and whether it

> > is working for us or not instead of being told that we

are in the danger

> > zone because we are taking the wrong type of something

(in their

> > opinion).

> >

> > I am certainly not a stupid person, but all this

technical jargon about

> > calcium and the other minerals just confuses me more -

it certainly

> > doesn't help me decide what is best for ME and MY BODY.

JMHO

> >

> > Jerri in MI

> >

> > Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

> >

> > Unsubscribe:

mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

How about being 23 years out...does this constitute any

experience with calcium intake?

I have been watching this debate going back and forth for

some time now, and have entered into the dicussion, here and

there.

I am one of those POST RNY patients that was advised to take

(2) tums to supplement my calcium deficiency.

Calcium is a mineral. It is marketed in several different

combinations. 85% of accross the counter calcium supplements

are Calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate contains 40%

elemental calcium with it

The highest level of elemental calcium that I have seen

available, processed in any other form is 21 - 29% (Ray

Hooks can verify which, process).

I was 4 years POST RNY, when I was informed by my doctor,

that I should be taking in at least 1000mg of elemental

calcium a day.

It is true, that taking calcium (no matter what process)

will also enhance the creation of kidney stones, for anyone,

so the intake of calcium must also be augmented with water

to help dilute and curb the formation of these stones.

I have been and am still taking TUMS as my primary source of

elemental calcium. Each tablet provides 200mg of elemental

calcium...

My dexescan in July, was normal....this works for me.

I take 3 sets of TUMS each and every day. I maintain at

least an hour between taking my perscriptiond iron and my

calcium supplement, as they both compete for absorbtion, if

taken together and you can suffer a deficiency of both if

taken within the same time frame.

Just my .02 cents worth

///Bob

RE: RE: Vitamins and minerals

> Thanks for putting that so easily to understand Jerri --

that was my point

> and I'm sorry if I up-set people in trying to make it :-(

>

> Because most people do share -- " This is what I did, this

is what happened,

> this is what I changed and these were the results.... "

sort of sharing then

> we have a whole list of " REAL " people, living daily with

this surgery who

> went before us to learn from (not a bunch of technical

jargon!!! Just real

> people, real results)

>

> The tums thing, as many have reported post-op not only

doesn't help the

> bones but can in fact contribute big time to kidney stones

(as with other

> carbonate calcium's.)

>

> What " I " have and believe in is a whole list of post-op

people with 2, 5,

> 8, 12 years and more post op who use the citrate and come

in with excellent

> bone scans (and that IS the point...) keeping our bones in

the best health

> possible.

>

> To me, the exchange and sharing of " individual experience "

is what is

> critical to all of us and that is what " support group " IMO

means... share

> what you did, what results you got... and so on... that is

helpful

> information to all of us. Like you, I don't think any of

us can come in a

> professional capacity or pretending to be professional and

tell each other

> what to do and what not to do... we can share what we've

done and what

> results we got from what we did and that is about the only

" long term study "

> that we have for people of people who are living life long

term with WLS.

> The rest is just jargon ~smile~

>

> If what your doing works then keep doing it right?

>

> But, I will apologize to everyone for my rather curt

post -- guess it was a

> PMS moment for me and I didn't mean to offend or hurt

anyone -- you made the

> point much better than I.

>

> hugz,

> ~denise

>

> > What I find that is most confusing on this subject is

that my surgeon

> > told me to take 2 Tums a day for my calcium needs, which

I did for 3

> > months post-surgery. Then I started reading that this

type of calcium

> > was not good for wls patients as we don't absorb it as

well and that we

> > should be using the citrate form. This made perfect

sense to me, so I

> > changed to that and then had my dexascan done, which

showed I am in the

> > high normal range. Now someone is saying that the

citrate form of

> > calcium is not what we need either - that we should be

taking something

> > else. So what is a person supposed to do? It's very

confusing and very

> > frustrating!!

> >

> > I will continue to take the calcium citrate as I have

been doing for the

> > past 10 months because it's what is working FOR ME and

that's what is

> > important to me. Everybody is different and what works

for you won't

> > necessarily work for me and visa versa. I feel that

this is what

> > everyone should do. Before having this surgery, I never

listened to my

> > body. Now I really listen to it and I give it what it

needs. And so

> > far I must be doing something right because all my labs

have come back

> > great, so I have no intention of changing anything

(except for trying to

> > increase my protein intake by finding a protein

supplement that I can

> > live with).

> >

> > As a new member, I find it very confusing when people

argue over what

> > kind of supplements I should be taking without taking

into account ME

> > and MY BODY. Obviously the calcium citrate is working

great for me or

> > my dexascan wouldn't have shown me to be in the high

normal range. And

> > the Flintstone multi-vitamins have all the minerals that

I need because

> > my lab works have all come back great. I can't even

imagine what a

> > newly post-op person is thinking when they are lurking

on this group and

> > they see all the conflicting discussions and the

technical jargon. What

> > would be nice is for people to post what is working for

them and then

> > let the rest of us decide whether we should try it or

not and whether it

> > is working for us or not instead of being told that we

are in the danger

> > zone because we are taking the wrong type of something

(in their

> > opinion).

> >

> > I am certainly not a stupid person, but all this

technical jargon about

> > calcium and the other minerals just confuses me more -

it certainly

> > doesn't help me decide what is best for ME and MY BODY.

JMHO

> >

> > Jerri in MI

> >

> > Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

> >

> > Unsubscribe:

mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

How about being 23 years out...does this constitute any

experience with calcium intake?

I have been watching this debate going back and forth for

some time now, and have entered into the dicussion, here and

there.

I am one of those POST RNY patients that was advised to take

(2) tums to supplement my calcium deficiency.

Calcium is a mineral. It is marketed in several different

combinations. 85% of accross the counter calcium supplements

are Calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate contains 40%

elemental calcium with it

The highest level of elemental calcium that I have seen

available, processed in any other form is 21 - 29% (Ray

Hooks can verify which, process).

I was 4 years POST RNY, when I was informed by my doctor,

that I should be taking in at least 1000mg of elemental

calcium a day.

It is true, that taking calcium (no matter what process)

will also enhance the creation of kidney stones, for anyone,

so the intake of calcium must also be augmented with water

to help dilute and curb the formation of these stones.

I have been and am still taking TUMS as my primary source of

elemental calcium. Each tablet provides 200mg of elemental

calcium...

My dexescan in July, was normal....this works for me.

I take 3 sets of TUMS each and every day. I maintain at

least an hour between taking my perscriptiond iron and my

calcium supplement, as they both compete for absorbtion, if

taken together and you can suffer a deficiency of both if

taken within the same time frame.

Just my .02 cents worth

///Bob

RE: RE: Vitamins and minerals

> Thanks for putting that so easily to understand Jerri --

that was my point

> and I'm sorry if I up-set people in trying to make it :-(

>

> Because most people do share -- " This is what I did, this

is what happened,

> this is what I changed and these were the results.... "

sort of sharing then

> we have a whole list of " REAL " people, living daily with

this surgery who

> went before us to learn from (not a bunch of technical

jargon!!! Just real

> people, real results)

>

> The tums thing, as many have reported post-op not only

doesn't help the

> bones but can in fact contribute big time to kidney stones

(as with other

> carbonate calcium's.)

>

> What " I " have and believe in is a whole list of post-op

people with 2, 5,

> 8, 12 years and more post op who use the citrate and come

in with excellent

> bone scans (and that IS the point...) keeping our bones in

the best health

> possible.

>

> To me, the exchange and sharing of " individual experience "

is what is

> critical to all of us and that is what " support group " IMO

means... share

> what you did, what results you got... and so on... that is

helpful

> information to all of us. Like you, I don't think any of

us can come in a

> professional capacity or pretending to be professional and

tell each other

> what to do and what not to do... we can share what we've

done and what

> results we got from what we did and that is about the only

" long term study "

> that we have for people of people who are living life long

term with WLS.

> The rest is just jargon ~smile~

>

> If what your doing works then keep doing it right?

>

> But, I will apologize to everyone for my rather curt

post -- guess it was a

> PMS moment for me and I didn't mean to offend or hurt

anyone -- you made the

> point much better than I.

>

> hugz,

> ~denise

>

> > What I find that is most confusing on this subject is

that my surgeon

> > told me to take 2 Tums a day for my calcium needs, which

I did for 3

> > months post-surgery. Then I started reading that this

type of calcium

> > was not good for wls patients as we don't absorb it as

well and that we

> > should be using the citrate form. This made perfect

sense to me, so I

> > changed to that and then had my dexascan done, which

showed I am in the

> > high normal range. Now someone is saying that the

citrate form of

> > calcium is not what we need either - that we should be

taking something

> > else. So what is a person supposed to do? It's very

confusing and very

> > frustrating!!

> >

> > I will continue to take the calcium citrate as I have

been doing for the

> > past 10 months because it's what is working FOR ME and

that's what is

> > important to me. Everybody is different and what works

for you won't

> > necessarily work for me and visa versa. I feel that

this is what

> > everyone should do. Before having this surgery, I never

listened to my

> > body. Now I really listen to it and I give it what it

needs. And so

> > far I must be doing something right because all my labs

have come back

> > great, so I have no intention of changing anything

(except for trying to

> > increase my protein intake by finding a protein

supplement that I can

> > live with).

> >

> > As a new member, I find it very confusing when people

argue over what

> > kind of supplements I should be taking without taking

into account ME

> > and MY BODY. Obviously the calcium citrate is working

great for me or

> > my dexascan wouldn't have shown me to be in the high

normal range. And

> > the Flintstone multi-vitamins have all the minerals that

I need because

> > my lab works have all come back great. I can't even

imagine what a

> > newly post-op person is thinking when they are lurking

on this group and

> > they see all the conflicting discussions and the

technical jargon. What

> > would be nice is for people to post what is working for

them and then

> > let the rest of us decide whether we should try it or

not and whether it

> > is working for us or not instead of being told that we

are in the danger

> > zone because we are taking the wrong type of something

(in their

> > opinion).

> >

> > I am certainly not a stupid person, but all this

technical jargon about

> > calcium and the other minerals just confuses me more -

it certainly

> > doesn't help me decide what is best for ME and MY BODY.

JMHO

> >

> > Jerri in MI

> >

> > Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

> >

> > Unsubscribe:

mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/19/02 10:23:19 PM Central Daylight Time,

jalgrogan@... writes:

What I find that is most confusing on this subject is that my surgeon told

me to take 2 Tums a day for my calcium needs, which I did for 3 months

post-surgery. Then I started reading that this type of calcium was not good

for wls patients as we don't absorb it as well and that we should be using

the citrate form.

-----------------------------I think it's precisely this kind of

misinformation that's passed out by OUR DOCTORS, who we're taught to revere

and trust, that drives some of us, at least, to try and find out what OTHER

experts have to say, whether they be other professionals, or post-ops who've

already traveled the road.

************************

Now someone is saying that the citrate form of calcium is not what we need

either - that we should be taking something else.

----------------------------I don't recall anything about another form of

calcium. Maybe you're referring to the question about whether our RDA can be

total calcium (such as calcium citrate, calcium carbonate, calcium maltate,

etc) or whether is should be elemental calcium? It's not exactly another form

of calcium so much as whether we are actually getting ENOUGH pure calcium, in

a form that our body can utilize.

*******************************

I will continue to take the calcium citrate as I have been doing for the past

10 months because it's what is working FOR ME and that's what is important to

me. Everybody is different and what works for you won't necessarily work for

me and visa versa. I feel that this is what everyone should do.

---------------------------You are 100% right about that. As long as you keep

close watch on your labs (and in the case of calcium, are relying on

dexascans and not just serum calcium levels).

*******************************

Obviously the calcium citrate is working great for me or my dexascan wouldn't

have shown me to be in the high normal range.

----------------------------Just be aware that many deficiencies take a long

long time to show up, and so it's important to watch trends up or down and

take action before something actually becomes a problem. So many times I've

read on these lists about people who were doing just great, and then in year

3 or year 4 or year 7, the bottom fell out and they are in trouble with one

thing or another.

*******************************

And the Flintstone multi-vitamins have all the minerals that I need because

my lab works have all come back great.

------------------------------Well, I'm not so sure THAT's the case, unless

your labs are testing you for ALL the minerals and vitamins that our body

needs, including the trace minerals. I know my surgeon steadfastly refused me

tests for even the major vitamins (and I didn't even ask to be tested for

trace minerals). After seeing SIX docs, I finally found one who was willing

to listen to me that I'd like to have a baseline on my vit's so I could

follow them and see if I'm getting too hi or too low on anything.

**********************************

I can't even imagine what a newly post-op person is thinking when they are

lurking on this group and they see all the conflicting discussions and the

technical jargon.

-----------------------It's probably not a bad idea for them to see just how

much confusion, controversy, and difference of opinion exists, even among

experts, when it comes to post-op aftercare. I know if I had been aware of

all that, I sure as heck would have done my homework pre-op a lot better, and

saved myself a lot of stress and worry the first several months post-op.

*************************

What would be nice is for people to post what is working for them and then

let the rest of us decide whether we should try it or not and whether it is

working for us or not instead of being told that we are in the danger zone

because we are taking the wrong type of something (in their opinion). I am

certainly not a stupid person, but all this technical jargon about calcium

and the other minerals just confuses me more - it certainly doesn't help me

decide what is best for ME and MY BODY. JMHO

--------------------------I think we actually get a good mix between personal

experience and the more technical recommendations, and I think there's a need

for both, as well. Whether a person is offering what has worked for them or

what they've read that makes them sit up and take notice, I believe the

person is (most often, at least) genuinely motiviated by the desire to be

helpful and to pass on to others what they think may be important. Some may

not be able to couch it in the nicest language (these are just personality

issues in the final analysis) and so their info may not be as well received.

But support takes many forms, whether it's a warning, an anecdote, or just an

" attaboy(girl). " And I think INTENT is what should count here: i.e. did the

person INTEND to try to help and give support? JMHO, too.

Regards,

Carol A

Jerri in MI

>>

[Guest guest]

<<

This is just my 2 cents. I'm not the moderator, so everyone is welcome to

tell me to blow it out my ear.

in St. Louis>>

in St Louis:

You crack me up!!! I'm tired of this infernal, eternal, never-to-be-resolved

GREAT CALCIUM DEBATE!! I'd rather tell everyone else to blow it out their

ears!!

Thanks for making me chuckle!

KC

[Guest guest]

The discussion has not been centered on whether calcium citrate is the

preferred form of calcium supplementation. There are two other forms of

calcium compounds with a higher bioavailability than calcium citrate,

but they are not generally commercially available. Calcium citrate with

vitamin D and magnesium is an excellent calcium supplement. That is not

at issue.

The issue is how much calcium citrate should be taken. If your

supplementation goal is 1500 mg of calcium, then 1500 mg of calcium

citrate will fall far short of that goal. Calcium citrate contains only

21-29% calcium. If you take 1500 mg calcium citrate, you will be

getting only 315-435 mg of calcium. 1500 mg of calcium citrate will

give you less than one third of your goal. My cautions have not been

that calcium citrate is not a good supplement. My caution is that a

label claim " Calcium Citrate 1000 mg 100% (DV) is deceptively

misleading because it leads the consumer to believe that two capsule

which contain only 294 mg calcium actually contain 1000 mg calcium. The

product itself is an excellent supplement. People just need to be aware

of the actual amount of calcium it contains so they can plan an

effective supplement program.

Ray Hooks

For WLS nutrition info, visit

http://www.bariatricsupplementsystem.com

Larry Grogan wrote:

>

> What I find that is most confusing on this subject is that my surgeon

> told me to take 2 Tums a day for my calcium needs, which I did for 3

> months post-surgery. Then I started reading that this type of calcium

> was not good for wls patients as we don't absorb it as well and that we

> should be using the citrate form. This made perfect sense to me, so I

> changed to that and then had my dexascan done, which showed I am in the

> high normal range. Now someone is saying that the citrate form of

> calcium is not what we need either - that we should be taking something

> else. So what is a person supposed to do? It's very confusing and very

> frustrating!!

>

> I will continue to take the calcium citrate as I have been doing for the

> past 10 months because it's what is working FOR ME and that's what is

> important to me. Everybody is different and what works for you won't

> necessarily work for me and visa versa. I feel that this is what

> everyone should do. Before having this surgery, I never listened to my

> body. Now I really listen to it and I give it what it needs. And so

> far I must be doing something right because all my labs have come back

> great, so I have no intention of changing anything (except for trying to

> increase my protein intake by finding a protein supplement that I can

> live with).

>

> As a new member, I find it very confusing when people argue over what

> kind of supplements I should be taking without taking into account ME

> and MY BODY. Obviously the calcium citrate is working great for me or

> my dexascan wouldn't have shown me to be in the high normal range. And

> the Flintstone multi-vitamins have all the minerals that I need because

> my lab works have all come back great. I can't even imagine what a

> newly post-op person is thinking when they are lurking on this group and

> they see all the conflicting discussions and the technical jargon. What

> would be nice is for people to post what is working for them and then

> let the rest of us decide whether we should try it or not and whether it

> is working for us or not instead of being told that we are in the danger

> zone because we are taking the wrong type of something (in their

> opinion).

>

> I am certainly not a stupid person, but all this technical jargon about

> calcium and the other minerals just confuses me more - it certainly

> doesn't help me decide what is best for ME and MY BODY. JMHO

>

> Jerri in MI

>

> Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

>

> Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/20/02 10:43:35 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobmiedema@... writes:

It is true, that taking calcium (no matter what process) will also enhance

the creation of kidney stones, for anyone, so the intake of calcium must also

be augmented with water to help dilute and curb the formation of these stones.

------------------------------

If I read Ray's posts correctly, there is no way that calcium citrate will

cause kidney stones. Which is why, I guess, so many WLS'ers prefer the

citrate, in addition to the better absorption. Anyone?

Carol A

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/20/02 10:43:35 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobmiedema@... writes:

It is true, that taking calcium (no matter what process) will also enhance

the creation of kidney stones, for anyone, so the intake of calcium must also

be augmented with water to help dilute and curb the formation of these stones.

------------------------------

If I read Ray's posts correctly, there is no way that calcium citrate will

cause kidney stones. Which is why, I guess, so many WLS'ers prefer the

citrate, in addition to the better absorption. Anyone?

Carol A

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/20/02 10:43:35 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobmiedema@... writes:

It is true, that taking calcium (no matter what process) will also enhance

the creation of kidney stones, for anyone, so the intake of calcium must also

be augmented with water to help dilute and curb the formation of these stones.

------------------------------

If I read Ray's posts correctly, there is no way that calcium citrate will

cause kidney stones. Which is why, I guess, so many WLS'ers prefer the

citrate, in addition to the better absorption. Anyone?

Carol A

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/20/02 11:16:37 AM Central Daylight Time,

WLS@... writes:

<< Personally, I enjoy a variety of posts - some based on science, some on

personal experiences. >>

------------------------------

Hey, hey! Gee, , that and all the rest of your post is kinda the same

thing I said. Except I never had that personality test and have no idea if

I'm an intuiter or what. But I just kinda tend to be a middle-of -the-roader.

AND I tend to pass on just about anything info-wise if I think someone might

be able to make use of it. Like they say in those 12-step programs: " take

what you like and leave the rest. "

Carol A

[Guest guest]

<>

I would only add to that statement, that just because it's working today does

not mean you should ever stop checking. My regimen worked fine for two years -

then it needed tweaking. I'm thankful to be so diligent about running regular

labs so that I had the chance to make changes rather than relying on what has

worked in the past even for me.

Kate

[Guest guest]

<>

I would only add to that statement, that just because it's working today does

not mean you should ever stop checking. My regimen worked fine for two years -

then it needed tweaking. I'm thankful to be so diligent about running regular

labs so that I had the chance to make changes rather than relying on what has

worked in the past even for me.

Kate

[Guest guest]

<

>

Probably because I am contrary, I just thought I'd point out that although I

don't particularly like the tone of some of the posts, I don't ever seem to get

tired of hearing the calcium discussion, or the protein discussion, or the iron

discussion, or the zinc....well, you get the idea.

Kate

[Guest guest]

<

>

Probably because I am contrary, I just thought I'd point out that although I

don't particularly like the tone of some of the posts, I don't ever seem to get

tired of hearing the calcium discussion, or the protein discussion, or the iron

discussion, or the zinc....well, you get the idea.

Kate

[Guest guest]

No one has said that calcium citrate is not a good form of supplement.

What has been said is that 3 500 mg calcium citrate capsules a day is

not sufficient supplementation. It provides no where near enough.

Ray Hooks

For WLS nutrition info, visit

http://www.bariatricsupplementsystem.com

[Guest guest]

Hi, Lynn

Glad to hear a voice of reason on this issue, and from someone who has some

background in the field.

I know there are at least 2 camps on this list, and most of 'em are on

's side. is an angel, a wonderful, kind, helpful and

knowledgeable lady who literally saved me early post-op when I was

floundering around in a sea of confusion and despair bcuz I didn't know what

the heck I should be taking or doing to protect my health. And I know that

she offers asylum all the time, in her own home, to the unfortunates she

calls her " broken people. " And I understand loyalty.

I didn't know anything about Ray or BSS, Inc until more recently. I know that

he (his company) is a competitor of Vitalady. Perhaps his harping on just one

brand of calcium has given the impression that he's out to " get " the

competition. Maybe, just maybe, like you say, he just wants to get the right

info out to the troops. I have never felt pressured by Ray to switch brands

or to buy his products, despite the fact that his website addy appears after

his name on each post. There are other list members that have THEIR bizniz

website addresses added after their names, and I don't feel compelled to

check those out either. Point is, just bcuz it's there doesn't mean you HAVE

to go visit it or buy anything. has her website after her name too,

come to think of it.

I don't know , have never met her, but I love her for what she's done

to help me. I don't know and have never met Ray either, but I respect his

efforts to answer my sometimes very technical questions and to educate me

when I ask for info. To me, these are two very different people with very

different personalities just trying to do their best to help others out. I

wish we could all just take the info in that spirit and not line up on one

side or the other.

Ray, maybe you could just quit talking about Nature's Science labeling and

that would soothe the troubled waters. I know there are other products out

there with the same type of labeling error or misrepresentation. I'm not sure

it's intentionally misleading; the subject is so darned confusing maybe the

people who decide on the label contents just don't know any better.

Personally, I would like to thank not only and Ray for all the help

they have extended, but everyone else (on this and other lists where the same

argument has raged as well) who has offered info and opinions and

experiences. I have taken what I like or need and left the rest. I wish

others would do the same and stop battling.

I DO believe that calcium RDA's are for elemental calcium and I base that not

just on what Ray has put forth, but on phone calls and letters to and from

other professionals, including doctors, who have supported this

interpretation. I am upping my consumption of calcium citrate and I will

watch my test results carefully for changes to see if " going elemental " has

any effect one way or another; that is, after all, the true acid test (no pun

intended).

Regards,

Carol A

In a message dated 9/20/02 1:51:15 PM Central Daylight Time,

karagory@... writes:

I don't understand why people get so defensive about this Calcium issue.

People are accusing Ray of having dishonorable intentions, and of having a

vendetta against the Vitalady. Why does Ray keep perpetuating this argument

in the face of so much criticism? Is he in it for profit or fame?

Actually, I think the reason Ray keeps harping on this particular topic is

because he is right! If you are taking a certain supplement that is

mis-labeled, wouldn't you want to know about it? If that mis-labeling means

you are only getting a quarter of the amount of calcium in your daily diet

that you should be getting, don't you want to know? I don't think " Nature's

Science " is a bad product, but I do firmly believe that it is mis-labeled.

It says you can get 100%DV of Calcium from 2 capsules. That is wrong.

Based on the rules set up by the FDA, and the amount of Calcium recommended

for adults by the US Federal government, you would have to take at least 7

capsules to get 100%DV from this product. As Ray said, the label should

read something like this (for two capsules):

" Calcium 294 mg 29% DV " or

" Calcium(Citrate) 294 mg 29% DV " or

" Calcium, as calcium citrate 294 mg 29% DV. "

I am not criticizing any individual here. I am just saying what I believe

to be true. I have nothing to sell, and nothing to gain by sharing this

information. I do have a background in food chemistry, so I think I am

somewhat knowledgeable on this subject.

Take it or leave it,

Lynn

>>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/20/02 4:03:05 PM Central Daylight Time,

kateseidel@... writes:

Probably because I am contrary, I just thought I'd point out that although I

don't particularly like the tone of some of the posts, I don't ever seem to

get tired of hearing the calcium discussion, or the protein discussion, or

the iron discussion, or the zinc....well, you get the idea.

------------------------------

I'm with you, Kate. If one is tired of the debate, just delete the post

without reading it.

Carol A

------------------------------

<< <

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/20/02 8:08:27 PM Central Daylight Time,

jalgrogan@... writes:

<< Okay, Ray, you say that the calcium citrate is a good form to take, but

that I am not getting the amount that I need. So then how on earth do I

know how many of my 500 mg. capsules to take each day to get the amount

that I need? >>

------------------------------

I'm not Ray, but I'll try to answer your question. Probably you've come in

late to this discussion, as it's been on here before. The industry standard

for calcium citrate is that it contains between 21 and 29% elemental calcium.

For ease in figuring, I just use 25% as the amount.

Check the label on your calcium citrate. If it says something like " all

values are elemental " then u can assume that whatever mg of calcium it shows

are elemental calcium, and if it says 200mg, then it's 200mg and u don't have

to do any figuring at all: if u need 1000mg, then u take 5 pills.Same is the

case if the label says xxxmg " AS calcium citrate. " No figuring needed. If it

says 200mg per pill/cap and u need 1000mg, then u take 5 pills.

However, IF the label says neither of the above, then the mg's shown on the

label are NOT elemental and you are only going to be getting 21 to 29% of

whatever mg's it shows. This is where I use 25% to figure out how many pills

I need to take. If the label says 200mg per pill/cap, I'm only getting 1/4 of

200 (i.e. 50mg) elemental calcium in each pill. If I need 1000mg, I need to

take 20 pills.

Now I know you don't want jargon. So here's the simple way. If u don't see

that " elemental " notation or " as calcium citrate " on the label, u check to

see how many mg in 1 pill (sometimes the label says how many mg in 2 or 3

pills instead of just one) and divide that by 4, and whatever THAT number is,

divide your desired dose by it and it will tell u how many pills to take.

Example: desired dose is 1000. Label says 500mg calcium citrate (doesn't say

" as " calcium citrate) in 2 pills. So ONE pill has 250mg. Now divide by 4 =

62.5mg; and 1000 divided by 62.5 = 16. So u take 16 pills.

Hope this helps.

Carol A

[Guest guest]

Larry Grogan wrote:

>

> Okay, Ray, you say that the calcium citrate is a good form to take, but

> that I am not getting the amount that I need. So then how on earth do I

> know how many of my 500 mg. capsules to take each day to get the amount

> that I need?

In the Code of Federal Regulations, the FDA has set forth very specific

labeling requirements, which if followed will tell you how much calcium

is in a single capsule or dosage.

Title 21 Section 101.36(2)(A) states that:

" The names and the quantitative amounts by weight of each ((2)-dietary

ingredient shall be presented under the heading ``Amount Per Serving.'' "

This section of the CFR requires that the weight of the vitamin or

mineral be clearly stated in the Supplemental Facts box on the

supplement bottle. There should not be any guess work involved. The

Nature's Science Supplemental Box statement should state:

" Calcium 294 mg 29% DV " or

" Calcium(Citrate) 294 mg 29% DV " or

" Calcium, as calcium citrate 294 mg 29% DV. "

Now that you know there is 295 mg calcium per two capsule serving, just

divide 294 into the amount of daily calcium supplementation you want.

For example, if you want 1500 mg supplementation, divide 1500 mg by 294,

which is 5 two capsule servings, or 10 capsules a day.

If you look at a supplement label that does not clearly state how much

calcium is in a serving, just don't buy it. Why take the chance? If

the manufacturer is deceptive about how much calcium is in its product,

the chances are that it will be deceptive in other areas as well. For

example, Nature's Science, whose label is deceptively misleading on the

amount of calcium in its product, also claims that the FDA daily DV of

1,000 mg is not elemental calcium. This statement is absurdly false. A

lay man may not be expected to know this. However, the manufacturer of

the Nature's Science product line claims to manufacture over 350

different food supplements. A manufacturer with this many product lines

should be expected to know that the FDA DV for a mineral is in elemental

form. A contrary statement by them is at best disingenuous, or more

likely, a bald faced lie.

Moreover, knowledgeable food supplement retailers should know the

difference as well. It can come as no surprise to the Vitalady that her

500 mg calcium citrate capsules contain no where near 500 mg elemental

calcium. I, personally, have been telling her that for over two years.

I do not use this group as a forum to promote the specialized line of

bariatric supplement products that I, in conjunction with industry

experts, have developed. I will guarantee you this much though, our

product labels are in complete compliance with FDA regulations. You

will not have to guess as to the amount of each vitamin or mineral that

each capsule or tablet contains. The amounts are clearly stated in

correct FDA terminology. Your health, and mine too because I take the

supplements myself, are at stake, so I can guarantee you there are no

mistakes or misstatements on our labels. Whether you buy the product or

not is up to you, but at least you will accurately know what you are

buying.

Ray Hooks

For WLS nutrition info, visit

http://www.bariatricsupplementsystem.com