Re: over/under methelator & DMG TMG question?

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 8/23/02 10:57:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> danaatty@y... writes:

>

>

> > DMG/TMG results are also dependent on under/over methylwhatever.

I

> > can't remember either LOL. But kids who are one or the other, do

> > nasty with DMG/TMG. My kids had a major nasty reaction to TMG.

> >

>

> Hi,

> Does someone know the answer to this?

> I'm trying to understand this relationship with TMG/DMG to

methylators

> (also serotonin).

There was a discussion on this several months ago here

abmd/

It was rather " over my head " LOL, but you can search the archives if

you want.

Dana

[Guest guest]

> > In a message dated 8/23/02 10:57:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > danaatty@y... writes:

> >

> >

> > > DMG/TMG results are also dependent on under/over methylwhatever.

> I

> > > can't remember either LOL. But kids who are one or the other, do

> > > nasty with DMG/TMG. My kids had a major nasty reaction to TMG.

> > >

> >

> > Hi,

> > Does someone know the answer to this?

> > I'm trying to understand this relationship with TMG/DMG to

> methylators

> > (also serotonin).

>

>

> There was a discussion on this several months ago here

>

> abmd/

>

> It was rather " over my head " LOL, but you can search the archives if

> you want.

>

> Dana---------------------------------- REPLY...the terms over - under

mentholater...first heard that as attributed to a Pfeiffer report, has never

heard it before..But, I did find info that said, Do Not Take SAMe and MSM

together as they are 'the same', one is a precursor of the other. I also have

read that MSM is a derivative of the DMSO that is used in many tansdermal preps

so they probably shouldn't be given together either...and so I'm assuming that

SAMe shouldn't be given with either...would hat be right?? As for TMG and DMG,

there was no mention of these in regard to the above, in the materials I saw,

except that those two also work the same, one is a precursor of the other so

shouldn't both be taken... had no idea they might be sulphur-aters... is that

the same as metholaters..?? Grandma Peg

[Guest guest]

The following is from an online HRI paper. I don't profess to understand it

thoroughly, but maybe someone will be able to get something out of it. I do

know that, according to the info below, my son shows distinct characteristics

of both over and under methylation.

Also, it seems to me that the definition below contradicts the definition

had mentioned. For instance, my son is very, very low in B-12 and folic

acid. According to HRI, that would put him in the overmethylator category,

but according to 's quote, B-12 and folic acid are detrimental to

over-methylators. (For what it's worth, my son does very well on mega B-12

and folic acid). So am I confused, or what?

Over-Methylation Many persons who suffer from anxiety and depression are

over-methylated which results in excessive levels of dopamine, norepinephrine

and serotonin. Typical symptoms include chemical and food sensitivities,

underachievement, upper body pain, and an adverse reaction to

serotonin-enhancing substances such as Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, St. ’s

Wort, and SAMe. They have a genetic tendency to be very depressed in folates,

niacin, and Vitamin B-12, and biochemical treatment focuses on

supplementation of these nutrients. These persons are also overloaded in

copper and methionine and supplements of these nutrients must be strictly

avoided.

Under-Methylation Many patients with obsessive-compulsive tendencies,

oppositional-defiant disorder, or seasonal depression are under-methylated

which is associated with low serotonin levels. They generally exhibit

seasonal allergies, perfectionism, competitiveness, and other distinctive

symptoms and traits. They have a genetic tendency to be very depressed in

calcium, magnesium, methionine, and Vitamin B-6 with excessive levels of

folic acid. These under-methylated persons may benefit nicely from Paxil,

Zoloft, and other serotonin-enhancing medications, although nasty side

effects are common. A more natural approach is to directly correct the

underlying problem using methionine, calcium, magnesium, and B-6. SAMe, St.

’s Wort, Kava Kava, and inositol are also very useful in treating these

individuals.

http://www.hriptc.org/biochemical_individuality.html

[Guest guest]

This is interesting. For one thing SSRIs are mostly given for

depression which does not fit HRIs categories. But that aside, here

is the other link I found on this topic. Maybe this link and the

Pfeiffer do not agree (?):

http://www.methylmagic.com/faq.html

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: What do we really need for methylation to prevent or treat

depression? - vitamins, TMG or SAMe?

A: People need folate, B12, B6, TMG and zinc whether or not they use

SAMe. SAMe will not replace all the actions of any of these. All

SAMe provides are methyl groups (expensive but also direct and

efficient methyl groups), adenosine and methionine. Many people

who " need " SAMe actually are low in precursors (e.g. methionine,

folate, B12, B6, TMG and zinc). If you take SAMe, these precursors

will help you recycle it, and should reduce the amounts of SAMe you

need to take. This can be followed readily using the metabolic

schematic in Methyl Magic (page 66). SAMe is great stuff but should

be used with the rest above (extra methionine is probably

unnecessary as long as you have good protein sources in your diet

and as long as your digestion is good).

Also note that for depression several aspects of biochemistry come

into play and a depressed person should want to handle all of these.

Three key areas:

Fatty acids, e.g. fish oil for membrane fluidity this helps

receptors, etc. to function.

Methyls, e.g. folic acid, B12, B6, zinc and TMG (and SAMe) for

membrane fluidity as well as for dopamine metabolism, acetylcholine

and epinephrine production etc.

Amino acids, e.g. protein or supplements such as 5-hydroxytryptophan

(5-HTP) for the starting material for neurotransmitters including

dopamine, serotonin, epinephrine etc. Methyl Magic handles most of

this. See additional sources for the 5-HTP and other amino acid

information.

Q: Why isn't MSM (methyl-sulfonyl-methane) used as a methyl donor in

Methyl Magic?

A: MSM is not listed as a methyl donor because, despite having

looked in the literature, we have not yet found out if MSM acts as a

methyl donor. It may be that no one has done the experiments. We

suspect MSM would act as a methyl donor, but we don't know the

pathway and thus we don't know how efficient (or inefficient) it

would be. Some of MSM's properties may be due to methylation but we

just don't know. MSM is apparently a good source of organic sulfur.

We do sometimes use MSM but we rely on TMG (betaine) as a good

methyl source - TMG works and is inexpensive. We are considering

testing MSM's effectiveness as a methyl donor but don't have the

funds yet to do this. A key question is whether or not MSM will

raise blood SAM (SAM itself or TMG will raise blood SAM).

Q: How does high dose niacin fit in with methylation?

A: Actually excess niacin is metabolized by methylation and thus

uses up methyl groups. This makes it especially important to get

your HCY and SAM tested if you use high dose niacin. Many doctors

won't know this - make sure yours does! I don't have an exact amount

of niacin that I would consider " too much " without testing to find

out. I myself try to aim for under 75mg (usually ~50mg) of

niacin+niacinamide per day from supplements. Note that some people,

often on doctor's orders, take massive amounts of niacin. Although I

won't necessarily say this is wrong, I do think these people should

get their homocysteine and SAM checked to make sure this niacin

isn't excessively taxing their methyl metabolism. Likewise some

supplements have lots of B6 (e.g. 100mg) and I usually aim for

between 20 and 50mg per day of B6.

Q: Why would someone necessarily be deficient in methylation other

than a lack of the proper nutrients? Is there a genetic variation

serious enough that a person with sufficient vitamins would still

suffer from insufficient methylation?

A: With respect to healthful longevity we are all " deficient " . We

weren't " made " to do healthful longevity; we were made to reproduce

when we are young. That's why we don't get " all the vitamins we need

from our food " regardless of how many fruits and vegetables we eat

or what misinformation we may have heard from conventional " health

experts " . In Methyl Magic, what we are trying to do is push or even

shove metabolism in a healthy, long life direction.

There are genetic variations that make some people especially

deficient or " slow methylators " . There are several kinds of such

people and variations i.e. several genes and the enzymes they

produce that can be inefficient or even missing altogether. In

extreme cases these can cause homocysteinuria. Usually these can be

handled with a combination of folic acid, B12, B6 and TMG. With

some, but not all of these variations, extra amounts of the cofactor

(e.g. folate) will compensate for the inefficient enzyme. Other

times you need to rely on the other pathways e.g. TMG, and B6

pathways when the folate B12 pathway is missing. Today we know that

zinc should also be in this supplement combination. For people with

these more serious deficiencies very high levels of folic acid (e.g.

5 milligrams/day) and TMG (e.g. 6 grams/day) are usually needed.

There are some types of genetic deficiencies where SAMe is the

specific needed supplement although these are less common (according

to conventional wisdom) than those needing B6, folic acid, TMG etc.