BETWEEN RAY AND ME (LONNNNNNNNNNNG)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/13/02 12:14:12 PM, Graduate-OSSG writes:

<< My education includes a bachelor and master of science degree in

hospitality management. >>

First to the group: Hi all:

Firstly, I am requesting of all here that this message, and the one about

people's gifts and backgrounds, remain SEPARATE. (I have received many emails

as of this morning about the gifts that people here possess and am wowed--we

have concert pianists, operatic singers, violists, soldiers, mechanics,

bakers. That was just this morning WOW. )

That said, this message here however is about safety on the list, and to me

that is prime....And I ask you not be flaming me for being a deliverer of a

proper concern..........and I ask you curb any irritation you might have with

Ray and/or me and not flame him, or me, or anyone else either. This is not a

school yard fight. WE ALL AGREE ABOUT 90% ABOUT MOST EVERYTHING HERE ON THE

LITTLE LIST-VILLE-- that we are all trying to be stalwart souls, that we are

all trying to be healthy, that we are all trying to live a true life. 90%

agreement is way more than ENOUGH TO HOLD THE PEACE. The other 10% however,

is of concern. I feel I would absolutely be amiss if I did not try to address

it. There is good and decent reason for it. I address it onlist because it

continues to be of concern onlist.

So, thanks for your response about your studies Ray. I appreciate it. I see

that you have studied hotel management and that is a competitive field,

especially after September 11, so many formerly hospitality centers are dying

on the vine and need smart heads to help them revive. I hope your job in the

industry will help this happen, as so many of the " little people " that is the

minimum wage earners in hotels and hospitality for conventions, have lost

their jobs. And of course, as you well know, that trickles down to families

of cabbies, luggage handlers and on and on. I see too that you sit on a board

of people who are doing selling of nutritional supplements, and that you too

sell supplements and that you bring your info from there to the list. I

listened when you said you read a great deal, that you subscribe to an

abstract service, I understand 'abstract' from my field, to be a 100 word

synopsis of a many pages' long study, perhaps your abstracts are somewhat

longer, but by terminology, I understand it to be not a shortened version,

but a very brief indicator; hypotheses, induction(s) (that is, efforts) ,

outcome.

And I would like to say these things about my question to you about your

background. It began by my being curious for a long time now about how you

evaluated what you choose to excerpt *before you posted it.* I thought

knowing your background might tell me where you're coming from better, though

I am always interested to hear about the diverse interests and backgrounds of

the group. I admit I have had a mounting concern about some of what you post

in fragments as well as in unequivocated statements. My concern heightened

greatly when you were wrong in your post to the list about occult blood in

the stool, and you stated it in such absolute terms too. This happened a few

weeks ago-- you gave serious erroneous information publicly. While it is true

that everyone on list is a grown-up, and that everyone has to decided and

will decide for themselves--(are you kidding, trying to tell this group of

wild ones how to behave--??!!) the wrongful information you have posted, in

my humble opinion, could dramatically mislead someone to very severe harm if

they relied on what you said. I feel pretty sure you don't want to do that. I

feel you don't. I feel you want to do good by others. To help. I told you

about your error at the time, and about the facts. And you admitted your

information was wrong. That was very important. And I appreciate it.

Over time, there are other matters you have stated without qualifiers, that

have also been wrong. It has become a concern to me, for this ONE reason

alone. This is not about you personally Ray--we have all kinds of people on

list with different personalities, senses of humors, religious beliefs, ways

of life, sexual styles, family life, and etc-- we manage to believe MANY

different things, often opposing things, but we all are still WALKING ALONG

TOGETHER, I believe bound together by our common concern and hopefully regard

whenever possible. My concern is about the way you sometimes present

fragmentary information ...

The ONE reason I continue to be concerned about some of what you post without

qualifiers, is that we have many on our list who are trying to come to

health. They have hung on through the most egregiously desperate of times;

many have nearly lost their lives before, during, or after this surgery. The

tears and agony and worry and anguish that have been spilled in their names

is immense. In my two cent's worth world, they deserve to know the most

reliable information they can get. For some, the balance is so fragile and so

labile, that with one piece of wrongful information they could be plunged

into a health crisis. Having been on gb lists for six years almost now, I

keep trying myself to better present health and MEDICAL information in one of

many ways, most of which having to do with offering opinions as your

personal opinion only. (For instance, your opinion Ray, that learning about

vitamins and minerals is " not rocket science. " Because of my background, my

opinion is that I disagree with you entirely. Vitamin and mineral research is

not rocket fuel science, but it is a codified science. When you read the

journals of research chemico-biology, neuro-atomic-biology, psychobiology,

and so many more, the study of nutrients and micronutrients is intense,

difficult, complicated and researchers must be intensely careful because

minerals and vitamins not only heighten but can also suppress various systems

and effects DEPENDING ON THE construct of the individual, whether they have

circulatory issues, immuno-suppression issues, and literally hundreds of

other variables.

I am sorry to disagree. I would rather stay in my cave and do my work and not

spend hours at this other either. I would rather agree with folks than

disagree. I would rather especially make people laugh, at me, if for no other

reason.

I wish you would state the site we can all go to to read ALL the data or

datum you point to. I personally, and this is just my opinion, don't want to

and can't read fragments of someone's second and third party research. I

don't want partials bec it cannot be relied upon as verifiable, replicatable

work if I dont see the variables, the control group study as well, the

numbers of subjects involved, what their genders re, ages, heritages and

about twenty other factors in order to assess the validity of the excerpt you

are offering. I especially need to see WHO FUNDED IT. (For me, it is WAY

different if someone says Prevention mag says, versus New England Journal of

Med says, versus Good Housekeeping says. All these are WAY different from

when a person on list offers anecdotal or personal info on 'what worked for

them' only. I like to listen to ALL of them, but if its a scientific study,

if its true scientific research, especially pages of it, I have to know the

methodology and particulars or else quoting fragments can be extremely

misleading. There's a name for such. It's called the Hawthorne effect. It is

when the researcher allows too much of their selective judgment to pick and

choose what will be presented in order to verify their own original

hypothesis.

This is still just my opinion. I find what is most useful for me is when

people state what works for them that is personal to them--I love to hear the

people's stories here, their personal struggles and triumphs mean a lot to

me. I want to red it aaaaALL and do, but can't do the fragmentary stuff

anymore.

The place where I am come from, an " independent researcher " amongst

scientists, has a strict protocol, a dedicated methodology, juried journal

credits in their area of expertise, has to pull down big grants to study

whatever, is affiliated with a university laboratory that will have all the

design matters, materials, and ESPECIALLY important to all of us who work n

the field, human resources, colleagues who can check and cross check our

work. An *independent researcher* to scientists and the medical profession is

not one who reads and reads. It is not a person affiliated with a merchant

company.

That is called a compiler, or a consortionist, there are other names for it,

and I would be the first to say that a lay person who is broadly but also

very deeply read can and does have a huge amount to offer. And varied and

long experience that is based on the many, also. We see that on list all the

time, don't we, from many, many folks who post here, immense;y valuable and

useful things. But independent research as it is meant for the Medical and

Health field is a profession, not an avocation as I understand it.

Just to clarify by my comments, so you know where I'm coming from besides

being the one who flunked kindergarten --truly--grin). This is not in any way

to play a game. it is to just put a perspective out. Perhaps this will help

to see where I am coming from. Completed Ph.D., 1981, Ethnology and Clinical

Psychology; and 1984 postdoctoral diploma (six year postdoctoral training);

International certification, certified Jungian Psychoanalyst. Graduate and

postdoctoral formal studies in research design, methodology,

psychopharmaceutics, statistical research. Clinical practice, 33 years.

Adjunct professor. Visiting Scholar in Residence; Chair, Colorado State

Grievance Board.

Just my last two cents worth, at one of the universities where I am a

Trustee, a " master of science degree in hospitality " management, is also

called hospitality marketing, hotel management and marketing, and tourism

marketing degree which includes managing facilities like an airport, a

convention center. There is a food services class for some who will manage

the restaurants within that mean, and other food cooking facilities in other

markets, including keeping food clean for public safety and to pass public

health department inspections. The word 'science' in this degree is NOT used

in the same way as it is in the health and medical fields. It is used to mean

'a body of knowledge--which is the dictionary definition-- as in theology,

which is often also called a 'science,' as well as another one, also called

'cosmetological sciences.' The use of the word 'sciences' has also been used

to apply to cooking, as in the culinary sciences, the body of knowledge about

cooking (one of the most interesting bodies of knowledge I would like to

study more about for reallys) but in hospitality and culinary and theology

the word 'science' is used quite differently than the concentration and

immersion in health and medical 'science' degrees

Now, if anyone has read this far, including Ray, who i don't blame him, has

probably dozed off, wants to spin this in some weird way, I hope you won't. I

am not supporting elitism, or that one person is better than another, or

anything of the like. Are you kidding, a former Latina welfare mother? It is

not my way. What I have tried to do is to lay out some info, taking a risk to

be pulverized ... But, for me, the issue is what I have stated. Safety.

Accuracy. Thanks Ray. Thanks list. I will not likely be posting this long

again, nor about this subject.

I have to go lay down now....

still can't spell

love,

ceep

[Guest guest]

Ceep, in my simple way, this is what I try to say, this is what I tried to

teach my children and husband, this is not what people are willing to learn.

Most of us like to latch on to one statement and stick with it forever. Fay

Bayuk

[Guest guest]

Ceep, in my simple way, this is what I try to say, this is what I tried to

teach my children and husband, this is not what people are willing to learn.

Most of us like to latch on to one statement and stick with it forever. Fay

Bayuk