Guest guest Posted April 13, 2001 Report Share Posted April 13, 2001 Hi All! Well, I took the train from Seattle to Portland at 7:30 AM [yawn ;-o]. I met with Dr. Deviny first. He spent maybe 10 minutes with me. He never asked me 'why' I want the surgery. Then, I rushed over to Dr. 's and she made me wait over an hour to see her! My appointment was for 3 but it was more like 4:30 when they took me back. This really amused me: included in the paperwork that new patients fill out was a 2 page 'abbreviated' questionnaire that seemed suspiciously like the MMPI. Isn't that a kick? I have a feeling they are wanting to see how consistent a patient's answers are with the psychologist's interpretation of the MMPI. Anyway, I think that she normally sees a patient for 2 hours or so because I finally had to just leave in order to catch the last train back to Seattle. So, I have to return to Portland to finish the initial appointment. Now for the good part: She did NOT accept my psychological evaluation or the MMPI interpretation!!! Can you top that? She said that it was too brief. So, now I have to get a letter from my regular psychiatrist, a copy of my 3-1/2 year old sleep study which shows I have sleep apnea and I have to get the hospital where I took the MMPI send the score to one of her psychologists so that they can interpret it. I also have to go see her psychologist and take ANOTHER " short " test. I think it's called a 'Battery of Eating Inventory' or something similar. Then, I have to meet with this psychologist for 1- 1 1/2 hours. So, on one hand I've got Deviny and OHSU who will contact me as soon as they discover that my insurance does not require an approval. On the other hand, I have at Emanuel requiring me to make at least 2 more trips to Portland before we get down to business. The funny thing is, I'm inclined to go ahead and show how well I can jump through hoops, I mean, follow directives. My impression is that once I become a surgical patient, I will enjoy care under Dr. a great deal more than at OHSU. I also suspect that Dr. may be running a really tight ship because she is relatively new and doesn't want there to be any problems that she could have prevented. In other words, I think it is an indication of integrity that she is as demanding and rigid as she is. What do others think? Can I get feed back from some of you who have already had the hospital experience? Thanks much to all of you. gobo ds pre-op BMI 55 " Sometimes We Never Know How We Influence the Lives of Others, Yet We Touch Those Lives Just the Same " > Thanks To All For Your Fabulous Support!!! > > I finally called Virginia Mason right here in Seattle. I was able to > be seen by the nutritionist and the psychiatrist on the SAME day. I > then took the MMPI following the two appointments. Whew!! It > was a lo-o-o-ong day ;-} > > I got the results in less than a week and guess what? I'm > normal!!! When I read that, my reaction was, " I am? " lol. > > I am so thrilled and I want to thank everyone who advised me to > 'not worry and to just be honest'. It worked!! :-) > > Next, I see Dr. on April 5. My PCP has been ordering > lab work, tests and what ever like crazy. I'll be heading down to > Portland on the 'red-eye' (that's Amtrak) at 7:30 AM this coming > Thursday. I'll be armed with two copies of my complete medical > charts and all test results, labs, nuclear heart tests, etc. I'm > meeting with Dr. Deviny at OHSU on the same day just in > case Dr. does not approve of me or the specialists I > finally found. > > Well anyway folks, even though I STILL haven't met any of you, > you've been so supportive no matter what I've asked of you. I > once asked the question of whether there are any Seattle Angels > and I feel as though I've got a whole group full of them! I think > it's time for a group (((((((HUG))))))) !!!! > > love to all, 8-D > > gobo > DS Pre-Op > appt. w/Dr. 4/5 > BMI 55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2001 Report Share Posted April 15, 2001 What amazing conclusions you've come to! I hope you have more to back them up than just your opinions. By 'more' I mean experience working in the health care profession or at least dealing extensively with health care providers. I don't like jumping through hoops any more than the next person but I'm not naieve enough to think it is all about the surgeon's ego. The hospital in Seattle where I took the MMPI gives it routinely to heart patients, neurology patients and, when I looked MMPI up on the internet, I discovered that it is also given in many instances to orthopedic patients. That should lay to rest your contention that it's a 'fat' discrimination. Further, after interviewing Dr. and Dr. Deviny, I was overwhelmed by what I perceived as a difference in integrity between the two progarams. I also have received a private email from one of her patients singing the praises of Dr. 's aftercare. I'm ticked off about having to go down to Portland to do the Psch. Eval. all over again but in fairness to Dr. , if I'd never done it up here in Seattle, it would not be 'again'. I'd be heading down there for the one and only evaluation. I mean you no disrespect and you certainly are entitled to your opinion but I think you are making unfair assumptions and being unduly harsh. In all honesty, the impression I have is that she really IS WORTH all this work. We may think it's unnecessary but she is clearly not the only physician who finds them to be valuable. You mentioned that you were deciding against her just based on her paper work; try meeting her and talking with her before you cross her off your list. I've worked in a hospital for 8-1/2 years and she impressed the heck out of me. Good luck with whatever direction you take. Remember, we have to live with the results of our decisions for the rest of our lives. gobo ds pre-op BMI 55.5 " Sometimes We Never Know How We Influence the Lives of Others, Yet We Touch Those Lives Just the Same " > > > Thanks To All For Your Fabulous Support!!! > > > > > > I finally called Virginia Mason right here in > > Seattle. I was able > > to > > > be seen by the nutritionist and the psychiatrist > > on the SAME > > day. I > > > then took the MMPI following the two appointments. > > Whew!! It > > > was a lo-o-o-ong day ;-} > > > > > > I got the results in less than a week and guess > > what? I'm > > > normal!!! When I read that, my reaction was, " I > > am? " lol. > > > > > > I am so thrilled and I want to thank everyone who > > advised me > > to > > > 'not worry and to just be honest'. It worked!! :-) > > > > > > Next, I see Dr. on April 5. My PCP has > > been ordering > > > lab work, tests and what ever like crazy. I'll be > > heading down to > > > Portland on the 'red-eye' (that's Amtrak) at 7:30 > > AM this coming > > > Thursday. I'll be armed with two copies of my > > complete > > medical > > > charts and all test results, labs, nuclear heart > > tests, etc. I'm > > > meeting with Dr. Deviny at OHSU on the same day > > just in > > > case Dr. does not approve of me or the > > specialists I > > > finally found. > > > > > > Well anyway folks, even though I STILL haven't met > > any of you, > > > you've been so supportive no matter what I've > > asked of you. I > > > once asked the question of whether there are any > > Seattle > > Angels > > > and I feel as though I've got a whole group full > > of them! I think > > > it's time for a group (((((((HUG))))))) !!!! > > > > > > love to all, 8-D > > > > > > gobo > > > DS Pre-Op > > > appt. w/Dr. 4/5 > > > BMI 55 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------ ---------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2001 Report Share Posted April 15, 2001 BREATHE GRASSHOPPER! --- Pflanz Leonard thepflanz@...> wrote: > I filled out Dr. 's preliminary form, but I > think I am going to tell her to stuff it. These > psychological tests are buncom, voodoo that the > baryatric physicians use to select a docile group of > patients willing to go along with whatever the > surgeon > says. ly, there is no group of people that can > be > more self-righteous than those in the medical field. > They can be really sickeningly helpful. Moreover, > people that will jump through all these foolish > psychiatric hoops are less likely to sue for > malpractice than other patients. Dr. Rutledge, the > quack from North Carolina that does the minigastric > bypass and reports amazing results, uses hoop > jumping > to select a docile group of patients, as well. Some > doctors lack the confidence to just go ahead and do > the surgery and this may be Dr. 's problem. > > To me, Emma , whether she knows it or not, > is > discriminating against fat people that aren't so > nice > as you may be with her MMPI and eating tests, for > some > out there won't put up with it. The NIH protocols > for > WLS are just that---inventions out of thin air by > politician medicos that are for discriminating > against > fat people because a lot of fat people are, as > everyone knows, nuts, for why else would they be > fat? > Who knows, it may be that they just don't want too > many fat people getting skinny. There is no other > group out there that has to go through such psych > hoops that I know about. Certainly not lung cancer > patients who smoke or people getting bowel surgeries > for a lack of fiber in the diet. I am told that they > are trying to get all those who have plastic surgery > to see a shrink first. > > As a group, fat people don't have much gumption. > > We fatsos are consumers; they are surgeons. We > should > be able to have our surgery without seeing a single > shrink or taking a single damn psychological test. > From what I can gather, the visit to the recommended > dietitian is also a waste of time, as the dietitian > knows very little about the duodenal switch surgery > and the peculiar dietetic requirements that it may > necessitate. Basically, what is required is clear > instructions from the surgeon on what should be > eaten, > how it should be eaten, and how much to eat, in > addition to a good relationship with one's PCP or > shrink, so that if one gets depressed post-op, they > can prescribe antidepressant medication or up them. > > If Ms Emma really cared about her > patients, > she would not be creating problems for her patients > and wasting their time and money or covering her > derriere with all sorts of documentation. On the > contrary, if she really cared about her patients, > she > would spend her time doing the surgeries and the > followups. This would increase her income and the > happiness that getting a switch can provide. It > sounds > to me like Emma is a perfectionist who has a god > complex. > > > --- gobo yoemoe@...> wrote: > > > > Hi All! > > Well, I took the train from Seattle to Portland at > > 7:30 AM [yawn ;-o]. > > I met with Dr. Deviny first. He spent maybe 10 > > minutes with me. > > He never asked me 'why' I want the surgery. Then, > I > > rushed over > > to Dr. 's and she made me wait over an > hour > > to see > > her! My appointment was for 3 but it was more like > > 4:30 when > > they took me back. > > > > This really amused me: included in the paperwork > > that new > > patients fill out was a 2 page 'abbreviated' > > questionnaire that seemed suspiciously like the > > MMPI. Isn't that > > a kick? I have a feeling they are wanting to see > how > > consistent a > > patient's answers are with the psychologist's > > interpretation of the > > MMPI. > > > > Anyway, I think that she normally sees a patient > for > > 2 hours or so > > because I finally had to just leave in order to > > catch the last train > > back to Seattle. So, I have to return to Portland > to > > finish the > > initial > > appointment. > > > > Now for the good part: She did NOT accept my > > psychological > > evaluation or the MMPI interpretation!!! Can you > top > > that? She > > said that it was too brief. > > > > So, now I have to get a letter from my regular > > psychiatrist, a copy > > of my 3-1/2 year old sleep study which shows I > have > > sleep > > apnea and I have to get the hospital where I took > > the MMPI send > > the score to one of her psychologists so that they > > can interpret it. > > I also have to go see her psychologist and take > > ANOTHER > > " short " test. I think it's called a 'Battery of > > Eating Inventory' or > > something similar. Then, I have to meet with this > > psychologist for > > 1- 1 1/2 hours. > > > > So, on one hand I've got Deviny and OHSU who will > > contact me > > as soon as they discover that my insurance does > not > > require an > > approval. On the other hand, I have at > > Emanuel > > requiring me to make at least 2 more trips to > > Portland before we > > get down to business. > > > > The funny thing is, I'm inclined to go ahead and > > show how well I > > can jump through hoops, I mean, follow directives. > > My > > impression is that once I become a surgical > patient, > > I will enjoy > > care under Dr. a great deal more than at > > OHSU. > > > > I also suspect that Dr. may be running a > > really tight > > ship because she is relatively new and doesn't > want > > there to be > > any problems that she could have prevented. In > other > > words, I > > think it is an indication of integrity that she is > > as demanding and > > rigid as she is. > > > > What do others think? Can I get feed back from > some > > of you who > > have already had the hospital experience? > > > > Thanks much to all of you. > > gobo > > ds pre-op > > BMI 55 > > > > " Sometimes We Never Know How We Influence the > Lives > > of > > Others, Yet We Touch Those Lives Just the Same " > > > > > > > Thanks To All For Your Fabulous Support!!! > > > > > > I finally called Virginia Mason right here in > > Seattle. I was able > > to > > > be seen by the nutritionist and the psychiatrist > > on the SAME > > day. I > > > then took the MMPI following the two > appointments. > > Whew!! It > > > was a lo-o-o-ong day ;-} > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2001 Report Share Posted April 15, 2001 BREATHE GRASSHOPPER! --- Pflanz Leonard thepflanz@...> wrote: > I filled out Dr. 's preliminary form, but I > think I am going to tell her to stuff it. These > psychological tests are buncom, voodoo that the > baryatric physicians use to select a docile group of > patients willing to go along with whatever the > surgeon > says. ly, there is no group of people that can > be > more self-righteous than those in the medical field. > They can be really sickeningly helpful. Moreover, > people that will jump through all these foolish > psychiatric hoops are less likely to sue for > malpractice than other patients. Dr. Rutledge, the > quack from North Carolina that does the minigastric > bypass and reports amazing results, uses hoop > jumping > to select a docile group of patients, as well. Some > doctors lack the confidence to just go ahead and do > the surgery and this may be Dr. 's problem. > > To me, Emma , whether she knows it or not, > is > discriminating against fat people that aren't so > nice > as you may be with her MMPI and eating tests, for > some > out there won't put up with it. The NIH protocols > for > WLS are just that---inventions out of thin air by > politician medicos that are for discriminating > against > fat people because a lot of fat people are, as > everyone knows, nuts, for why else would they be > fat? > Who knows, it may be that they just don't want too > many fat people getting skinny. There is no other > group out there that has to go through such psych > hoops that I know about. Certainly not lung cancer > patients who smoke or people getting bowel surgeries > for a lack of fiber in the diet. I am told that they > are trying to get all those who have plastic surgery > to see a shrink first. > > As a group, fat people don't have much gumption. > > We fatsos are consumers; they are surgeons. We > should > be able to have our surgery without seeing a single > shrink or taking a single damn psychological test. > From what I can gather, the visit to the recommended > dietitian is also a waste of time, as the dietitian > knows very little about the duodenal switch surgery > and the peculiar dietetic requirements that it may > necessitate. Basically, what is required is clear > instructions from the surgeon on what should be > eaten, > how it should be eaten, and how much to eat, in > addition to a good relationship with one's PCP or > shrink, so that if one gets depressed post-op, they > can prescribe antidepressant medication or up them. > > If Ms Emma really cared about her > patients, > she would not be creating problems for her patients > and wasting their time and money or covering her > derriere with all sorts of documentation. On the > contrary, if she really cared about her patients, > she > would spend her time doing the surgeries and the > followups. This would increase her income and the > happiness that getting a switch can provide. It > sounds > to me like Emma is a perfectionist who has a god > complex. > > > --- gobo yoemoe@...> wrote: > > > > Hi All! > > Well, I took the train from Seattle to Portland at > > 7:30 AM [yawn ;-o]. > > I met with Dr. Deviny first. He spent maybe 10 > > minutes with me. > > He never asked me 'why' I want the surgery. Then, > I > > rushed over > > to Dr. 's and she made me wait over an > hour > > to see > > her! My appointment was for 3 but it was more like > > 4:30 when > > they took me back. > > > > This really amused me: included in the paperwork > > that new > > patients fill out was a 2 page 'abbreviated' > > questionnaire that seemed suspiciously like the > > MMPI. Isn't that > > a kick? I have a feeling they are wanting to see > how > > consistent a > > patient's answers are with the psychologist's > > interpretation of the > > MMPI. > > > > Anyway, I think that she normally sees a patient > for > > 2 hours or so > > because I finally had to just leave in order to > > catch the last train > > back to Seattle. So, I have to return to Portland > to > > finish the > > initial > > appointment. > > > > Now for the good part: She did NOT accept my > > psychological > > evaluation or the MMPI interpretation!!! Can you > top > > that? She > > said that it was too brief. > > > > So, now I have to get a letter from my regular > > psychiatrist, a copy > > of my 3-1/2 year old sleep study which shows I > have > > sleep > > apnea and I have to get the hospital where I took > > the MMPI send > > the score to one of her psychologists so that they > > can interpret it. > > I also have to go see her psychologist and take > > ANOTHER > > " short " test. I think it's called a 'Battery of > > Eating Inventory' or > > something similar. Then, I have to meet with this > > psychologist for > > 1- 1 1/2 hours. > > > > So, on one hand I've got Deviny and OHSU who will > > contact me > > as soon as they discover that my insurance does > not > > require an > > approval. On the other hand, I have at > > Emanuel > > requiring me to make at least 2 more trips to > > Portland before we > > get down to business. > > > > The funny thing is, I'm inclined to go ahead and > > show how well I > > can jump through hoops, I mean, follow directives. > > My > > impression is that once I become a surgical > patient, > > I will enjoy > > care under Dr. a great deal more than at > > OHSU. > > > > I also suspect that Dr. may be running a > > really tight > > ship because she is relatively new and doesn't > want > > there to be > > any problems that she could have prevented. In > other > > words, I > > think it is an indication of integrity that she is > > as demanding and > > rigid as she is. > > > > What do others think? Can I get feed back from > some > > of you who > > have already had the hospital experience? > > > > Thanks much to all of you. > > gobo > > ds pre-op > > BMI 55 > > > > " Sometimes We Never Know How We Influence the > Lives > > of > > Others, Yet We Touch Those Lives Just the Same " > > > > > > > Thanks To All For Your Fabulous Support!!! > > > > > > I finally called Virginia Mason right here in > > Seattle. I was able > > to > > > be seen by the nutritionist and the psychiatrist > > on the SAME > > day. I > > > then took the MMPI following the two > appointments. > > Whew!! It > > > was a lo-o-o-ong day ;-} > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2001 Report Share Posted April 16, 2001 This response to gobo is dedicated to Joe, who regularly insists, for reasons that escape me, that he is not an " old fart. " Perhaps Joe is being proactive in making this statement. Actually, gobo, my conclusions are yet to be arrived at. I am groping around for them still. Alas, my gropings sometimes make others uncomfortable. I sincerely hope they do not make you uncomfortable. Nor do I wish to make Joe uncomfortable. Thank you, gobo, for the information on the more extensive use of the MMPI by the medical profession. Your logic, gobo, is just slightly flawed. You fail to prove with your facts that fat people aren't being discriminated against. Realistically, all you prove is that cardiac, orthopedic, and neurology patients are being singled out and possibly discriminated against, as well. Joe likes being singled out and discriminated against. Don't be obtuse: Something ain't right with all this dumb testing, even if you feel that your longterm interests push you into putting up with Emma 's paperwork needs for one reason or another. Trust your gut feeling, gobo; it's right on. You are being bullied and manipulated by the medical profession for no good reason. Joe, from what I can read between the lines, wouldn't agree with me on this. Apparently, gobo, according to your own revelations, there are forces in American medicine today that are increasingly intrusive. Those forces are involved with the growing scourge of psychology tests: not just the morbidly obese but anyone and everyone the psych crowd can test in a medical setting will be, soon enough, the target. This is scary. And wasteful. Joe thinks it's money well spent. What about the common law right to privacy? Obesity is no automatic waiver of our wish to keep our business our own, or is it? Joe thinks it is. Suppose I have had open heart surgery; but, because I refuse to take the MMPI or any of these other tests the next time around, does this mean that I won't qualify for another bypass procedure? Does the system reject all of us who resist taking these weird tests as, say, insane, like Joe and others intimated, or unworthy? Does intellectual intractability, an abrasive persona, a thickened skin, and a haute style equal insanity? Joe thinks so. And Joe, God bless him, is never wrong. We patients, I believe, have a right to say no to these silly and intrusive and time-wasting tests that physicians like Dr. Emma ---who many, like yourself, gobo, say is a sweet lady and very conscientious---require. They require these tests, as I understand it, to evaluate whether or not we are sane enough, docile enough, humble enough, tractable enough, sensitive enough, attentive enough, disciplined enough, and consistent enough in our answers. Consistency, for example, may be an aspect of dimwittedness. Our last president certainly had Protean dimensions, even if he wasn't dimwitted. Joe is not, well, Protean. Talk about discrimination: What is being done to you, gobo, and to other DSers is technoprejudice. This is serious not simply because of my particular principled and conceivably insane resistance to this baloney but also because, as one of the senior DS members has pointed out, these technovoodoocrats (my terminology) use a " psychosocial test " on those who need organ transplants. According to my informant, many flunk the test. That is what I mean by a God complex. Joe denies he has been the victim of one. These protocols being used on us, gobo, do not hold up under careful scrutiny, for they are quackery. These surgeons and medicos are playing God literally with peoples' lives, and they cannot look into someone's heart with any sort of divine objectivity using the MMPI or any other pseudo-objective psychology test. What these technocrats, in effect, are doing is peeing in the snow and then calling it art. Joe thinks, " Art is in the eye of the beholder. " I would, if I could, pee in Art's eye, not Joe's. The bottom line on this business is easy to fathom if one wonders in the right way: If any president or other high official, like our beloved gov, Kitsch(?), was going to have this surgery, you can bet that he would not have to take the MMPI or any other psychological test. Joe is not a high official, so he had to take the test. He found it helpful. Everyone in the medical profession knows that those tests are for the rest of us, the second-class citizens of this medical dystopia who are being discriminated against by the professionals who are practicing medicine by the numbers. Joe likes being a number. Nor would they try to force these dubious tests on one of their colleagues or a member of that colleague's family. These tests-for-almost-everyone are, it seems, being used by baryatric surgeons and others in the health care field for doubtful reasons: to provide jobs for clinical psychologists and other health professionals, as well as to lend the appearance of quality in health care for the masses. As such, they are a scam and a scandal, even if Joe, who's always right and a gentleman, thinks they are worthwhile. --- gobo yoemoe@...> wrote: > What amazing conclusions you've come to! I hope you > have > more to back them up than just your opinions. By > 'more' I mean > experience working in the health care profession or > at least > dealing extensively with health care providers. > > I don't like jumping through hoops any more than the > next person > but I'm not naieve enough to think it is all about > the surgeon's > ego. The hospital in Seattle where I took the MMPI > gives it > routinely to heart patients, neurology patients and, > when I looked > MMPI up on the internet, I discovered that it is > also given in many > instances to orthopedic patients. That should lay to > rest your > contention that it's a 'fat' discrimination. > > Further, after interviewing Dr. and Dr. > Deviny, I was > overwhelmed by what I perceived as a difference in > integrity > between the two progarams. I also have received a > private email > from one of her patients singing the praises of Dr. > 's > aftercare. > > I'm ticked off about having to go down to Portland > to do the Psch. > Eval. all over again but in fairness to Dr. > , if I'd never > done it up here in Seattle, it would not be 'again'. > I'd be heading > down there for the one and only evaluation. > > I mean you no disrespect and you certainly are > entitled to your > opinion but I think you are making unfair > assumptions and being > unduly harsh. In all honesty, the impression I have > is that she > really IS WORTH all this work. We may think it's > unnecessary but > she is clearly not the only physician who finds them > to be > valuable. > > You mentioned that you were deciding against her > just based on > her paper work; try meeting her and talking with her > before you > cross her off your list. I've worked in a hospital > for 8-1/2 years > and she impressed the heck out of me. > > Good luck with whatever direction you take. > Remember, we have > to live with the results of our decisions for the > rest of our lives. > > gobo > ds pre-op > BMI 55.5 > > > " Sometimes We Never Know How We Influence the Lives > of > Others, Yet We Touch Those Lives Just the Same " > > > > > > > > Hi All! > > > Well, I took the train from Seattle to Portland > at > > > 7:30 AM [yawn ;-o]. > > > I met with Dr. Deviny first. He spent maybe 10 > > > minutes with me. > > > He never asked me 'why' I want the surgery. > Then, I > > > rushed over > > > to Dr. 's and she made me wait over an > hour > > > to see > > > her! My appointment was for 3 but it was more > like > > > 4:30 when > > > they took me back. > > > > > > This really amused me: included in the paperwork > > > that new > > > patients fill out was a 2 page 'abbreviated' > > > questionnaire that seemed suspiciously like the > > > MMPI. Isn't that > > > a kick? I have a feeling they are wanting to see > how > > > consistent a > > > patient's answers are with the psychologist's > > > interpretation of the > > > MMPI. > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2001 Report Share Posted April 16, 2001 This response to gobo is dedicated to Joe, who regularly insists, for reasons that escape me, that he is not an " old fart. " Perhaps Joe is being proactive in making this statement. Actually, gobo, my conclusions are yet to be arrived at. I am groping around for them still. Alas, my gropings sometimes make others uncomfortable. I sincerely hope they do not make you uncomfortable. Nor do I wish to make Joe uncomfortable. Thank you, gobo, for the information on the more extensive use of the MMPI by the medical profession. Your logic, gobo, is just slightly flawed. You fail to prove with your facts that fat people aren't being discriminated against. Realistically, all you prove is that cardiac, orthopedic, and neurology patients are being singled out and possibly discriminated against, as well. Joe likes being singled out and discriminated against. Don't be obtuse: Something ain't right with all this dumb testing, even if you feel that your longterm interests push you into putting up with Emma 's paperwork needs for one reason or another. Trust your gut feeling, gobo; it's right on. You are being bullied and manipulated by the medical profession for no good reason. Joe, from what I can read between the lines, wouldn't agree with me on this. Apparently, gobo, according to your own revelations, there are forces in American medicine today that are increasingly intrusive. Those forces are involved with the growing scourge of psychology tests: not just the morbidly obese but anyone and everyone the psych crowd can test in a medical setting will be, soon enough, the target. This is scary. And wasteful. Joe thinks it's money well spent. What about the common law right to privacy? Obesity is no automatic waiver of our wish to keep our business our own, or is it? Joe thinks it is. Suppose I have had open heart surgery; but, because I refuse to take the MMPI or any of these other tests the next time around, does this mean that I won't qualify for another bypass procedure? Does the system reject all of us who resist taking these weird tests as, say, insane, like Joe and others intimated, or unworthy? Does intellectual intractability, an abrasive persona, a thickened skin, and a haute style equal insanity? Joe thinks so. And Joe, God bless him, is never wrong. We patients, I believe, have a right to say no to these silly and intrusive and time-wasting tests that physicians like Dr. Emma ---who many, like yourself, gobo, say is a sweet lady and very conscientious---require. They require these tests, as I understand it, to evaluate whether or not we are sane enough, docile enough, humble enough, tractable enough, sensitive enough, attentive enough, disciplined enough, and consistent enough in our answers. Consistency, for example, may be an aspect of dimwittedness. Our last president certainly had Protean dimensions, even if he wasn't dimwitted. Joe is not, well, Protean. Talk about discrimination: What is being done to you, gobo, and to other DSers is technoprejudice. This is serious not simply because of my particular principled and conceivably insane resistance to this baloney but also because, as one of the senior DS members has pointed out, these technovoodoocrats (my terminology) use a " psychosocial test " on those who need organ transplants. According to my informant, many flunk the test. That is what I mean by a God complex. Joe denies he has been the victim of one. These protocols being used on us, gobo, do not hold up under careful scrutiny, for they are quackery. These surgeons and medicos are playing God literally with peoples' lives, and they cannot look into someone's heart with any sort of divine objectivity using the MMPI or any other pseudo-objective psychology test. What these technocrats, in effect, are doing is peeing in the snow and then calling it art. Joe thinks, " Art is in the eye of the beholder. " I would, if I could, pee in Art's eye, not Joe's. The bottom line on this business is easy to fathom if one wonders in the right way: If any president or other high official, like our beloved gov, Kitsch(?), was going to have this surgery, you can bet that he would not have to take the MMPI or any other psychological test. Joe is not a high official, so he had to take the test. He found it helpful. Everyone in the medical profession knows that those tests are for the rest of us, the second-class citizens of this medical dystopia who are being discriminated against by the professionals who are practicing medicine by the numbers. Joe likes being a number. Nor would they try to force these dubious tests on one of their colleagues or a member of that colleague's family. These tests-for-almost-everyone are, it seems, being used by baryatric surgeons and others in the health care field for doubtful reasons: to provide jobs for clinical psychologists and other health professionals, as well as to lend the appearance of quality in health care for the masses. As such, they are a scam and a scandal, even if Joe, who's always right and a gentleman, thinks they are worthwhile. --- gobo yoemoe@...> wrote: > What amazing conclusions you've come to! I hope you > have > more to back them up than just your opinions. By > 'more' I mean > experience working in the health care profession or > at least > dealing extensively with health care providers. > > I don't like jumping through hoops any more than the > next person > but I'm not naieve enough to think it is all about > the surgeon's > ego. The hospital in Seattle where I took the MMPI > gives it > routinely to heart patients, neurology patients and, > when I looked > MMPI up on the internet, I discovered that it is > also given in many > instances to orthopedic patients. That should lay to > rest your > contention that it's a 'fat' discrimination. > > Further, after interviewing Dr. and Dr. > Deviny, I was > overwhelmed by what I perceived as a difference in > integrity > between the two progarams. I also have received a > private email > from one of her patients singing the praises of Dr. > 's > aftercare. > > I'm ticked off about having to go down to Portland > to do the Psch. > Eval. all over again but in fairness to Dr. > , if I'd never > done it up here in Seattle, it would not be 'again'. > I'd be heading > down there for the one and only evaluation. > > I mean you no disrespect and you certainly are > entitled to your > opinion but I think you are making unfair > assumptions and being > unduly harsh. In all honesty, the impression I have > is that she > really IS WORTH all this work. We may think it's > unnecessary but > she is clearly not the only physician who finds them > to be > valuable. > > You mentioned that you were deciding against her > just based on > her paper work; try meeting her and talking with her > before you > cross her off your list. I've worked in a hospital > for 8-1/2 years > and she impressed the heck out of me. > > Good luck with whatever direction you take. > Remember, we have > to live with the results of our decisions for the > rest of our lives. > > gobo > ds pre-op > BMI 55.5 > > > " Sometimes We Never Know How We Influence the Lives > of > Others, Yet We Touch Those Lives Just the Same " > > > > > > > > Hi All! > > > Well, I took the train from Seattle to Portland > at > > > 7:30 AM [yawn ;-o]. > > > I met with Dr. Deviny first. He spent maybe 10 > > > minutes with me. > > > He never asked me 'why' I want the surgery. > Then, I > > > rushed over > > > to Dr. 's and she made me wait over an > hour > > > to see > > > her! My appointment was for 3 but it was more > like > > > 4:30 when > > > they took me back. > > > > > > This really amused me: included in the paperwork > > > that new > > > patients fill out was a 2 page 'abbreviated' > > > questionnaire that seemed suspiciously like the > > > MMPI. Isn't that > > > a kick? I have a feeling they are wanting to see > how > > > consistent a > > > patient's answers are with the psychologist's > > > interpretation of the > > > MMPI. > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2001 Report Share Posted April 16, 2001 This response to gobo is dedicated to Joe, who regularly insists, for reasons that escape me, that he is not an " old fart. " Perhaps Joe is being proactive in making this statement. Actually, gobo, my conclusions are yet to be arrived at. I am groping around for them still. Alas, my gropings sometimes make others uncomfortable. I sincerely hope they do not make you uncomfortable. Nor do I wish to make Joe uncomfortable. Thank you, gobo, for the information on the more extensive use of the MMPI by the medical profession. Your logic, gobo, is just slightly flawed. You fail to prove with your facts that fat people aren't being discriminated against. Realistically, all you prove is that cardiac, orthopedic, and neurology patients are being singled out and possibly discriminated against, as well. Joe likes being singled out and discriminated against. Don't be obtuse: Something ain't right with all this dumb testing, even if you feel that your longterm interests push you into putting up with Emma 's paperwork needs for one reason or another. Trust your gut feeling, gobo; it's right on. You are being bullied and manipulated by the medical profession for no good reason. Joe, from what I can read between the lines, wouldn't agree with me on this. Apparently, gobo, according to your own revelations, there are forces in American medicine today that are increasingly intrusive. Those forces are involved with the growing scourge of psychology tests: not just the morbidly obese but anyone and everyone the psych crowd can test in a medical setting will be, soon enough, the target. This is scary. And wasteful. Joe thinks it's money well spent. What about the common law right to privacy? Obesity is no automatic waiver of our wish to keep our business our own, or is it? Joe thinks it is. Suppose I have had open heart surgery; but, because I refuse to take the MMPI or any of these other tests the next time around, does this mean that I won't qualify for another bypass procedure? Does the system reject all of us who resist taking these weird tests as, say, insane, like Joe and others intimated, or unworthy? Does intellectual intractability, an abrasive persona, a thickened skin, and a haute style equal insanity? Joe thinks so. And Joe, God bless him, is never wrong. We patients, I believe, have a right to say no to these silly and intrusive and time-wasting tests that physicians like Dr. Emma ---who many, like yourself, gobo, say is a sweet lady and very conscientious---require. They require these tests, as I understand it, to evaluate whether or not we are sane enough, docile enough, humble enough, tractable enough, sensitive enough, attentive enough, disciplined enough, and consistent enough in our answers. Consistency, for example, may be an aspect of dimwittedness. Our last president certainly had Protean dimensions, even if he wasn't dimwitted. Joe is not, well, Protean. Talk about discrimination: What is being done to you, gobo, and to other DSers is technoprejudice. This is serious not simply because of my particular principled and conceivably insane resistance to this baloney but also because, as one of the senior DS members has pointed out, these technovoodoocrats (my terminology) use a " psychosocial test " on those who need organ transplants. According to my informant, many flunk the test. That is what I mean by a God complex. Joe denies he has been the victim of one. These protocols being used on us, gobo, do not hold up under careful scrutiny, for they are quackery. These surgeons and medicos are playing God literally with peoples' lives, and they cannot look into someone's heart with any sort of divine objectivity using the MMPI or any other pseudo-objective psychology test. What these technocrats, in effect, are doing is peeing in the snow and then calling it art. Joe thinks, " Art is in the eye of the beholder. " I would, if I could, pee in Art's eye, not Joe's. The bottom line on this business is easy to fathom if one wonders in the right way: If any president or other high official, like our beloved gov, Kitsch(?), was going to have this surgery, you can bet that he would not have to take the MMPI or any other psychological test. Joe is not a high official, so he had to take the test. He found it helpful. Everyone in the medical profession knows that those tests are for the rest of us, the second-class citizens of this medical dystopia who are being discriminated against by the professionals who are practicing medicine by the numbers. Joe likes being a number. Nor would they try to force these dubious tests on one of their colleagues or a member of that colleague's family. These tests-for-almost-everyone are, it seems, being used by baryatric surgeons and others in the health care field for doubtful reasons: to provide jobs for clinical psychologists and other health professionals, as well as to lend the appearance of quality in health care for the masses. As such, they are a scam and a scandal, even if Joe, who's always right and a gentleman, thinks they are worthwhile. --- gobo yoemoe@...> wrote: > What amazing conclusions you've come to! I hope you > have > more to back them up than just your opinions. By > 'more' I mean > experience working in the health care profession or > at least > dealing extensively with health care providers. > > I don't like jumping through hoops any more than the > next person > but I'm not naieve enough to think it is all about > the surgeon's > ego. The hospital in Seattle where I took the MMPI > gives it > routinely to heart patients, neurology patients and, > when I looked > MMPI up on the internet, I discovered that it is > also given in many > instances to orthopedic patients. That should lay to > rest your > contention that it's a 'fat' discrimination. > > Further, after interviewing Dr. and Dr. > Deviny, I was > overwhelmed by what I perceived as a difference in > integrity > between the two progarams. I also have received a > private email > from one of her patients singing the praises of Dr. > 's > aftercare. > > I'm ticked off about having to go down to Portland > to do the Psch. > Eval. all over again but in fairness to Dr. > , if I'd never > done it up here in Seattle, it would not be 'again'. > I'd be heading > down there for the one and only evaluation. > > I mean you no disrespect and you certainly are > entitled to your > opinion but I think you are making unfair > assumptions and being > unduly harsh. In all honesty, the impression I have > is that she > really IS WORTH all this work. We may think it's > unnecessary but > she is clearly not the only physician who finds them > to be > valuable. > > You mentioned that you were deciding against her > just based on > her paper work; try meeting her and talking with her > before you > cross her off your list. I've worked in a hospital > for 8-1/2 years > and she impressed the heck out of me. > > Good luck with whatever direction you take. > Remember, we have > to live with the results of our decisions for the > rest of our lives. > > gobo > ds pre-op > BMI 55.5 > > > " Sometimes We Never Know How We Influence the Lives > of > Others, Yet We Touch Those Lives Just the Same " > > > > > > > > Hi All! > > > Well, I took the train from Seattle to Portland > at > > > 7:30 AM [yawn ;-o]. > > > I met with Dr. Deviny first. He spent maybe 10 > > > minutes with me. > > > He never asked me 'why' I want the surgery. > Then, I > > > rushed over > > > to Dr. 's and she made me wait over an > hour > > > to see > > > her! My appointment was for 3 but it was more > like > > > 4:30 when > > > they took me back. > > > > > > This really amused me: included in the paperwork > > > that new > > > patients fill out was a 2 page 'abbreviated' > > > questionnaire that seemed suspiciously like the > > > MMPI. Isn't that > > > a kick? I have a feeling they are wanting to see > how > > > consistent a > > > patient's answers are with the psychologist's > > > interpretation of the > > > MMPI. > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2001 Report Share Posted April 16, 2001 Leonard; 1. You mentioned several times that I am being 'bullied'. I don't see it that way; that's not my experience. I understand that it is your opinion but that does not make it so. A person's subjective opinion of their experience is a far more accurate indicator of what is true. 2. You mentioned that " patients have a right to say no " . RIGHT ON! You do have a right to say no and then find another surgeon who does not require the evaluation. I fail to see what the big deal is. Say you were in a restaurant and the wait-person offered you the special of the day as being the best that evening. If you really hated whatever it was, even if all your companions order it, would you make a big deal about criticizing the selection and giving reasons why they should not order it, and start protesting the restaurant for even offerring it? More likely, you would express your disdain for the 'special of the day' and then move on to ordering something more to your liking. My point is, this is an opportunity to do the same. You've been very clear about preferring not to take a Pchycological evaluation. Now's the time to move on to another surgeon. Dr. Deviny at OHSU does not require it; Dr. Thirlby at Virginia Mason in Seattle does not require it. It's not necessary to be in charge of other people's decisions, just your own. 3. You mentioned that the " protocols being used on us do not hold up " . Is that your opinion or scientific fact? I'm not in a position to judge something that complex; it would require a ton of impirical data but it is my opinion that the protocols do in fact hold up. That doesn't mean that improvements can't be made but I've had 12 years experience and honestly believe that the protocols serve their purpose. Further, I was not trying to prove that fat people are discriminated against. We are discriminated against daily by society and yes, to a certain degree even by the medical profession. Fortunately, that is moving in the right direction. Things are far better now than they were 30 years ago (before I was obese, lol). Finally, I'm not sure you're concept of 'discrimination' is sound. To discriminate is to treat one or more members of a group or set differently than all other members of that same group or set are treated. This is in reference to your comment that all fat, cardiac, neuologic and orthopedic patients are discriminated against. As long as all these patients are treated the same, there is no discrimination. It would be innaccurate to compare them to other groups of medical patients because the other groups, by virtue of being in another group, are having different medical treatment. The only way you can say we're discriminated against medically is if we had to get a psych eval. (or jump through hoops) in order to get a flu shot, for instance. Obviously, that would be unfair. Look at it this way, if an obese person needed their appendix out, they would not have to jump throup hoops; they would be treated exactly the same as a thin person having appendicitis. It's the treatment being sought that determines what the patient will be subjected to. Leonard, you're clearly a bright person. I enjoy conversing with smart folks. And, I'm impressed by the fact that you've made your tone more approachable. I hope we can have great exchanges of ideas. By the way, do you mind disclosing what region you live in? I only ask for the sake of possibly offering further suggestions of surgeons who do not require the psych. eval. Good luck Leonard. gobo pre-op BMI 55.5 " Sometimes We Never Know How We Influence the Lives of Others, Yet We Touch Those Lives Just the Same " > > What amazing conclusions you've come to! I hope you > > have > > more to back them up than just your opinions. By > > 'more' I mean > > experience working in the health care profession or > > at least > > dealing extensively with health care providers. > > > > I don't like jumping through hoops any more than the > > next person > > but I'm not naieve enough to think it is all about > > the surgeon's > > ego. The hospital in Seattle where I took the MMPI > > gives it > > routinely to heart patients, neurology patients and, > > when I looked > > MMPI up on the internet, I discovered that it is > > also given in many > > instances to orthopedic patients. That should lay to > > rest your > > contention that it's a 'fat' discrimination. > > > > Further, after interviewing Dr. and Dr. > > Deviny, I was > > overwhelmed by what I perceived as a difference in > > integrity > > between the two progarams. I also have received a > > private email > > from one of her patients singing the praises of Dr. > > 's > > aftercare. > > > > I'm ticked off about having to go down to Portland > > to do the Psch. > > Eval. all over again but in fairness to Dr. > > , if I'd never > > done it up here in Seattle, it would not be 'again'. > > I'd be heading > > down there for the one and only evaluation. > > > > I mean you no disrespect and you certainly are > > entitled to your > > opinion but I think you are making unfair > > assumptions and being > > unduly harsh. In all honesty, the impression I have > > is that she > > really IS WORTH all this work. We may think it's > > unnecessary but > > she is clearly not the only physician who finds them > > to be > > valuable. > > > > You mentioned that you were deciding against her > > just based on > > her paper work; try meeting her and talking with her > > before you > > cross her off your list. I've worked in a hospital > > for 8-1/2 years > > and she impressed the heck out of me. > > > > Good luck with whatever direction you take. > > Remember, we have > > to live with the results of our decisions for the > > rest of our lives. > > > > gobo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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