Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 At 04:18 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote: I want to try it to prepare the nut milk yogurt to see if it ferments - what are your thoughts? Is there any reason that I am missing as to why a fremented product prepared without the Strep bacteria would be illegal or possibly damaging to the gut? I'm pretty sure, based on my reading about fermentation that it will ferment in some manner . . . Kim, I can appreciate your boys' distress over sauerkraut vs. SCD yogurt. <wry grin> You're evidently doing dairy-free SCD at this time, correct? Is it a casein issue for your boys? One of the things which has been observed is that intolerance of cow dairy does not equal intolerance of goat dairy -- and that the fermentation process alters the proteins in either so that they are more digestable. On to yogurt... first, per official definitions by the US government and other governments, YOGURT must have s. thermophilus and l. bulgaricus. However, in one of the older BTVCs, Elaine mentioned a lactose free sour cream which does not apparently have the same bacteria as yogurt, which was legal. This seems to indicate that it is possible to have fermented dairy which is not yogurt, yet which is SCD-legal. (But trying to find that particular sour cream, since Elaine never named a brand or anything has kept me entertained for most of my eight years on SCD.) If you can find a probiotic with the l. acidophilus and the l.caseii, both of which are SCD legal, and IF you can get them to ferment in the nut milk (addition of honey required), I am going to go out on a serious limb here, and say you might have a reasonable probiotic drink. If you were going to be using actual dairy, I think I would ferment it suitably, then add some lactaid drops and let it stand in the fridge to be sure all the lactose was gone. I don't know that the Bio-Kult would would be suitable because of its enteric coating. How do you get it open? You may have to continue searching for a suitable culture. (I would not recommend the liquid Bio-kult because it contains too many illegals to be considered as a starter.) Please understand that none of the above about making a non-yogurt probiotic drink is found in Breaking the Vicious Cycle. I expect someone will come along and leap all over me for daring to suggest something like this. The last time I went out on a limb with the cocoa butter, I got pounded for days. Whatever you make, it won't be yogurt, by the official definition of same. But it might help you get good bugs down your boys. — Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 At 04:18 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote: I want to try it to prepare the nut milk yogurt to see if it ferments - what are your thoughts? Is there any reason that I am missing as to why a fremented product prepared without the Strep bacteria would be illegal or possibly damaging to the gut? I'm pretty sure, based on my reading about fermentation that it will ferment in some manner . . . Kim, I can appreciate your boys' distress over sauerkraut vs. SCD yogurt. <wry grin> You're evidently doing dairy-free SCD at this time, correct? Is it a casein issue for your boys? One of the things which has been observed is that intolerance of cow dairy does not equal intolerance of goat dairy -- and that the fermentation process alters the proteins in either so that they are more digestable. On to yogurt... first, per official definitions by the US government and other governments, YOGURT must have s. thermophilus and l. bulgaricus. However, in one of the older BTVCs, Elaine mentioned a lactose free sour cream which does not apparently have the same bacteria as yogurt, which was legal. This seems to indicate that it is possible to have fermented dairy which is not yogurt, yet which is SCD-legal. (But trying to find that particular sour cream, since Elaine never named a brand or anything has kept me entertained for most of my eight years on SCD.) If you can find a probiotic with the l. acidophilus and the l.caseii, both of which are SCD legal, and IF you can get them to ferment in the nut milk (addition of honey required), I am going to go out on a serious limb here, and say you might have a reasonable probiotic drink. If you were going to be using actual dairy, I think I would ferment it suitably, then add some lactaid drops and let it stand in the fridge to be sure all the lactose was gone. I don't know that the Bio-Kult would would be suitable because of its enteric coating. How do you get it open? You may have to continue searching for a suitable culture. (I would not recommend the liquid Bio-kult because it contains too many illegals to be considered as a starter.) Please understand that none of the above about making a non-yogurt probiotic drink is found in Breaking the Vicious Cycle. I expect someone will come along and leap all over me for daring to suggest something like this. The last time I went out on a limb with the cocoa butter, I got pounded for days. Whatever you make, it won't be yogurt, by the official definition of same. But it might help you get good bugs down your boys. — Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 At 04:18 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote: I want to try it to prepare the nut milk yogurt to see if it ferments - what are your thoughts? Is there any reason that I am missing as to why a fremented product prepared without the Strep bacteria would be illegal or possibly damaging to the gut? I'm pretty sure, based on my reading about fermentation that it will ferment in some manner . . . Kim, I can appreciate your boys' distress over sauerkraut vs. SCD yogurt. <wry grin> You're evidently doing dairy-free SCD at this time, correct? Is it a casein issue for your boys? One of the things which has been observed is that intolerance of cow dairy does not equal intolerance of goat dairy -- and that the fermentation process alters the proteins in either so that they are more digestable. On to yogurt... first, per official definitions by the US government and other governments, YOGURT must have s. thermophilus and l. bulgaricus. However, in one of the older BTVCs, Elaine mentioned a lactose free sour cream which does not apparently have the same bacteria as yogurt, which was legal. This seems to indicate that it is possible to have fermented dairy which is not yogurt, yet which is SCD-legal. (But trying to find that particular sour cream, since Elaine never named a brand or anything has kept me entertained for most of my eight years on SCD.) If you can find a probiotic with the l. acidophilus and the l.caseii, both of which are SCD legal, and IF you can get them to ferment in the nut milk (addition of honey required), I am going to go out on a serious limb here, and say you might have a reasonable probiotic drink. If you were going to be using actual dairy, I think I would ferment it suitably, then add some lactaid drops and let it stand in the fridge to be sure all the lactose was gone. I don't know that the Bio-Kult would would be suitable because of its enteric coating. How do you get it open? You may have to continue searching for a suitable culture. (I would not recommend the liquid Bio-kult because it contains too many illegals to be considered as a starter.) Please understand that none of the above about making a non-yogurt probiotic drink is found in Breaking the Vicious Cycle. I expect someone will come along and leap all over me for daring to suggest something like this. The last time I went out on a limb with the cocoa butter, I got pounded for days. Whatever you make, it won't be yogurt, by the official definition of same. But it might help you get good bugs down your boys. — Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 > Marilyn, > Thank you. This is collaborative " thinking outside the box " + common > sense and logical mental deduction which I do appreciate! I will go > to the mat for you if you get blasted. I do realize, and I hope > others who read this as well, understand that it is an " off the > books " application that MAY work. I certainly understand it > > I will continue my search for an appropriate probiotic with out > strep strain, and with my luck, by the time I find it, they will > have healed enough so that we get the go-ahead from the doctor to > try traditional BTVC goats milk yogurt. Hey Kim, I missed the part about why you can't use the strep bacterium? That nut milk yogurt, as is, is pretty iffy taste-wise. Not really a fan. Mara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 > Marilyn, > Thank you. This is collaborative " thinking outside the box " + common > sense and logical mental deduction which I do appreciate! I will go > to the mat for you if you get blasted. I do realize, and I hope > others who read this as well, understand that it is an " off the > books " application that MAY work. I certainly understand it > > I will continue my search for an appropriate probiotic with out > strep strain, and with my luck, by the time I find it, they will > have healed enough so that we get the go-ahead from the doctor to > try traditional BTVC goats milk yogurt. Hey Kim, I missed the part about why you can't use the strep bacterium? That nut milk yogurt, as is, is pretty iffy taste-wise. Not really a fan. Mara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 > Marilyn, > Thank you. This is collaborative " thinking outside the box " + common > sense and logical mental deduction which I do appreciate! I will go > to the mat for you if you get blasted. I do realize, and I hope > others who read this as well, understand that it is an " off the > books " application that MAY work. I certainly understand it > > I will continue my search for an appropriate probiotic with out > strep strain, and with my luck, by the time I find it, they will > have healed enough so that we get the go-ahead from the doctor to > try traditional BTVC goats milk yogurt. Hey Kim, I missed the part about why you can't use the strep bacterium? That nut milk yogurt, as is, is pretty iffy taste-wise. Not really a fan. Mara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 At 07:45 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: Marilyn, Thank you. This is collaborative " thinking outside the box " + common sense and logical mental deduction which I do appreciate! I will go to the mat for you if you get blasted. I do realize, and I hope others who read this as well, understand that it is an " off the books " application that MAY work. I certainly understand it I will continue my search for an appropriate probiotic with out strep strain, and with my luck, by the time I find it, they will have healed enough so that we get the go-ahead from the doctor to try traditional BTVC goats milk yogurt. Again, kind, kind thanks for your help. Kim, One of the things I do know is the Elaine Gottschall was an " out of the box " thinker herself. If she hadn't been, we wouldn't have this diet! I do know that she became a little more rigid in her later years (I saw the difference between the time I began SCD, and four years later when she left us.) That was mainly due to people hounding her, trying to get her to approve all sorts of commercially prepared foods as SCD legal because they were too lazy to either get a letter on their own or prepare their own food. She had a different idea when it came to legitimate health questions, which your boys definitely have. I can emphatically recommend staying away from any starter with bifidus. And watch out for any commercially prepared probiotic drinks. I say this not to be mean or nasty, but again, from personal experience. At eight years on the diet, I sometimes have a little more leeway on things than a newer person might have... and sometimes, I don't. I got hold of some bifidus-laced commercial kefir last week. Had maybe half a cup. Was it the bifidus? Was it residual lactose? I don't know. I do know that I had the most unbelievable gut cramps for around 36 hours. They eased off after I started doing acidophilus and s. boulardii (alternating) every two hours for about 12 hours. But it's experiences like that which remind me (if I needed it) to " make my own, make my own, make my own, " and to avoid non-SCD probiotic strains (especially bifidus) like the plague. I would not wish those gut cramps on my worst enemy. You're obviously proceeding cautiously on this, and that's excellent. <g> And offspring being offspring, you're probably right: by the time you find a suitable starter, they probably won't need it any more... but think how thrilled you (and they) will be! — Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 At 07:45 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: Marilyn, Thank you. This is collaborative " thinking outside the box " + common sense and logical mental deduction which I do appreciate! I will go to the mat for you if you get blasted. I do realize, and I hope others who read this as well, understand that it is an " off the books " application that MAY work. I certainly understand it I will continue my search for an appropriate probiotic with out strep strain, and with my luck, by the time I find it, they will have healed enough so that we get the go-ahead from the doctor to try traditional BTVC goats milk yogurt. Again, kind, kind thanks for your help. Kim, One of the things I do know is the Elaine Gottschall was an " out of the box " thinker herself. If she hadn't been, we wouldn't have this diet! I do know that she became a little more rigid in her later years (I saw the difference between the time I began SCD, and four years later when she left us.) That was mainly due to people hounding her, trying to get her to approve all sorts of commercially prepared foods as SCD legal because they were too lazy to either get a letter on their own or prepare their own food. She had a different idea when it came to legitimate health questions, which your boys definitely have. I can emphatically recommend staying away from any starter with bifidus. And watch out for any commercially prepared probiotic drinks. I say this not to be mean or nasty, but again, from personal experience. At eight years on the diet, I sometimes have a little more leeway on things than a newer person might have... and sometimes, I don't. I got hold of some bifidus-laced commercial kefir last week. Had maybe half a cup. Was it the bifidus? Was it residual lactose? I don't know. I do know that I had the most unbelievable gut cramps for around 36 hours. They eased off after I started doing acidophilus and s. boulardii (alternating) every two hours for about 12 hours. But it's experiences like that which remind me (if I needed it) to " make my own, make my own, make my own, " and to avoid non-SCD probiotic strains (especially bifidus) like the plague. I would not wish those gut cramps on my worst enemy. You're obviously proceeding cautiously on this, and that's excellent. <g> And offspring being offspring, you're probably right: by the time you find a suitable starter, they probably won't need it any more... but think how thrilled you (and they) will be! — Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 At 07:45 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: Marilyn, Thank you. This is collaborative " thinking outside the box " + common sense and logical mental deduction which I do appreciate! I will go to the mat for you if you get blasted. I do realize, and I hope others who read this as well, understand that it is an " off the books " application that MAY work. I certainly understand it I will continue my search for an appropriate probiotic with out strep strain, and with my luck, by the time I find it, they will have healed enough so that we get the go-ahead from the doctor to try traditional BTVC goats milk yogurt. Again, kind, kind thanks for your help. Kim, One of the things I do know is the Elaine Gottschall was an " out of the box " thinker herself. If she hadn't been, we wouldn't have this diet! I do know that she became a little more rigid in her later years (I saw the difference between the time I began SCD, and four years later when she left us.) That was mainly due to people hounding her, trying to get her to approve all sorts of commercially prepared foods as SCD legal because they were too lazy to either get a letter on their own or prepare their own food. She had a different idea when it came to legitimate health questions, which your boys definitely have. I can emphatically recommend staying away from any starter with bifidus. And watch out for any commercially prepared probiotic drinks. I say this not to be mean or nasty, but again, from personal experience. At eight years on the diet, I sometimes have a little more leeway on things than a newer person might have... and sometimes, I don't. I got hold of some bifidus-laced commercial kefir last week. Had maybe half a cup. Was it the bifidus? Was it residual lactose? I don't know. I do know that I had the most unbelievable gut cramps for around 36 hours. They eased off after I started doing acidophilus and s. boulardii (alternating) every two hours for about 12 hours. But it's experiences like that which remind me (if I needed it) to " make my own, make my own, make my own, " and to avoid non-SCD probiotic strains (especially bifidus) like the plague. I would not wish those gut cramps on my worst enemy. You're obviously proceeding cautiously on this, and that's excellent. <g> And offspring being offspring, you're probably right: by the time you find a suitable starter, they probably won't need it any more... but think how thrilled you (and they) will be! — Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 At 08:34 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: Homegrown Kefir culture is realtively easy to do in goat milk, if cow's milk is a problem. I have a source for raw whole cow milk from a local dairy. It is super-good stuff. And it has the benefits of active enzymes in addition to loads of pro-biotics. If fermented at least 24 hours at about 70 - 75 degrees in a dark cabinet, it will be lactose-free and lively. It just makes my tummy feel good! Well, maybe easy, and maybe not -- I'd have to come up with a cooler which would keep it at 70-75 degrees, because that is NOT what New Orleans room temp is in spring, summer, and autumn -- we can't afford the air conditioning bill. AND, I would have to find a culture which does not contain bifidus -- Elaine was 100% on about bifidus not being a team player. As I noted, I made two mistakes with the experiment: using commercial kefir, and using kefir which had bifidus in it. Also just as a reminder, many, many, MANY people do not do well with raw foods, at least, initially. It literally took me years to tolerate much in the way of raw fruits and vegetables -- and even now, I have to make sure I give my digestion a break a couple times a week by eating cooked veggies. — Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 At 08:34 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: Homegrown Kefir culture is realtively easy to do in goat milk, if cow's milk is a problem. I have a source for raw whole cow milk from a local dairy. It is super-good stuff. And it has the benefits of active enzymes in addition to loads of pro-biotics. If fermented at least 24 hours at about 70 - 75 degrees in a dark cabinet, it will be lactose-free and lively. It just makes my tummy feel good! Well, maybe easy, and maybe not -- I'd have to come up with a cooler which would keep it at 70-75 degrees, because that is NOT what New Orleans room temp is in spring, summer, and autumn -- we can't afford the air conditioning bill. AND, I would have to find a culture which does not contain bifidus -- Elaine was 100% on about bifidus not being a team player. As I noted, I made two mistakes with the experiment: using commercial kefir, and using kefir which had bifidus in it. Also just as a reminder, many, many, MANY people do not do well with raw foods, at least, initially. It literally took me years to tolerate much in the way of raw fruits and vegetables -- and even now, I have to make sure I give my digestion a break a couple times a week by eating cooked veggies. — Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 At 08:34 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: Homegrown Kefir culture is realtively easy to do in goat milk, if cow's milk is a problem. I have a source for raw whole cow milk from a local dairy. It is super-good stuff. And it has the benefits of active enzymes in addition to loads of pro-biotics. If fermented at least 24 hours at about 70 - 75 degrees in a dark cabinet, it will be lactose-free and lively. It just makes my tummy feel good! Well, maybe easy, and maybe not -- I'd have to come up with a cooler which would keep it at 70-75 degrees, because that is NOT what New Orleans room temp is in spring, summer, and autumn -- we can't afford the air conditioning bill. AND, I would have to find a culture which does not contain bifidus -- Elaine was 100% on about bifidus not being a team player. As I noted, I made two mistakes with the experiment: using commercial kefir, and using kefir which had bifidus in it. Also just as a reminder, many, many, MANY people do not do well with raw foods, at least, initially. It literally took me years to tolerate much in the way of raw fruits and vegetables -- and even now, I have to make sure I give my digestion a break a couple times a week by eating cooked veggies. — Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Mara, Thanks for the info. I have tried the pickle juice and sauerkraut juice diluted , and they cant get it down. But they do love their nut milk. As for veggies, we are in an anti-orange phase right now. Depressing. I'm sick of broccoli, beans, sqush and peas. Oh well. Orange produces hysterics. I WISH could get them to gobble the fremented veg. I love it. On the list of things to try. I am reading McCandless right now - along with about 4 other books - only about 60 pages in; Thanks for the LDN info rec for her. Let me see what you need to join the other group, since, as I said, I have her book. LDN for all of us is on my list too. The thing that always flummoxes me is that my boys are adopted - not one of the three of us is bio related, but yet we all share symptoms. So, I'm always jumping from one solution to the next. But once I get my issues squared away, I hope to foce more on them too. MEantime, I will read, so thanks for the info fnd for thinking of me - Kim > > > Mara, > > It's for my sons - one of my sons trends toward PANDAS: > > http://intramural.nimh.nih.gov/pdn/web.htm > > He rarely " gets sick " with a strep infection, but instead goes > > through about six weeks of nasty and incredibly difficult behavioral > > swings due to the autoimmune reaction caused by his body trying to > > fight off a strep infection. At this time, and later, his Strep > > titers will test really high. > > > > We learned this in December/January when we were still taking an > > illegal supplement which contained Strep, and transitioning into SCD > > - as soon as we reomved the supplement, within about 24 hours, he > > regulated back down to his own " normal " . > > > > So, for that reason, his doc suggesed no more Strep bacterium in > > anything, and now we only take the legal SCD supplements anyway. > > > > So, I'm trying to find an apropriate dairy-free starter that does > > not contain Strep or Bifidus to make a pseudo nut-milk yogurt. They > > love the nut milk lately I've been making it with soaked, blanched > > slivered almonds instead of the TJ's flour, and it is really thick > > and creamy. I know the probio will probably alter everything, but > > it's worth a try. My boys can't have casein yet either. > > > > If you have any ideas for a SCD legal, Strep free pro bio culture > > like please let me know! > > Kim > >> > >> Hey Kim, > >> > >> I missed the part about why you can't use the strep bacterium? > >> > >> That nut milk yogurt, as is, is pretty iffy taste-wise. Not really a > >> fan. > >> > >> Mara > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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