carbs and lactic acid

January 13, 2005

This is great, Lea, thanks very much. I am going to print and think about

this, as it brings more questions to mind. The basics of glycolysis I

understand, as I've had to deal with that for years in balancing things out

metabolically. However, I am still thinking through the implications of

carbohydrates in the genesis of lactic acidosis. As nearly as I can tell

from this explanation, all carbohydrates would have the same (or similar)

effect as simple sugars, in that all are eventually converted to glucose,

regardless of whether they are simple or complex. Simple sugars do spike

quicker, and maybe quicker absorption could " encourage " the undesirable fork

in the road? Is that what Shoffner is saying? But from this information it's

not clear to me why that would happen. I'm also confused as to what

determines which fork in the road is taken for any given pyruvate molecule?

Is that known? Which biochemical or combination of biochemicals play " god "

at this fork in the road?

I'm asking because I'm having a lot of problems trying to sort out

carbohydrates right now in light of my combination of metabolic disorders.

Just looking for further understanding that may eventually provide practical

guidance. I realize you are getting this info from Shoffner second hand, but

if you could shed any further light, I'd be grateful.

Tks,

Barbara

_____

From: Lea

Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:46 PM

To:

Subject: Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage girls

A friend of mine (Tim) sees Dr. Shoffner in Atlanta. When Tim's lactate is

tested when he is not fasting it is much higher than when he is fasting.

Shoffner told him that he has seen the postprandial spikes in other

metabolically

compromised patients, and that they are not due to liver dysfunction.

Shoffner also said simple sugars should make the lactate spike more.

Together, lactic acid and another chemical (pyruvate) form a reversible

reaction regulated by the oxygen supply to the blood and tissues. When

oxygen levels are low, pyruvate converts to lactic acid; when oxygen levels

are adequate, lactic acid converts to pyruvate.

I figure that all that pyruvate is not getting into the mitochondria (maybe

because of an oxygen problem) and is instead being converted to Lactate

(see below) ...so I guess the more sugar available for conversion to

pyruvate, the more lactate that can be made by a faulty entry into the

mitochondria

What is Lactic Acid and Where Does it Come From?

When you consume carbohydrate, it consists of several different sugar

molecules; sucrose, fructose, glucose to name a few. However, by the time

the liver does it's job, all of this sugar is converted to glucose which can

be taken up by all cells. Muscle fibers take up glucose and either use it

immediately, or store it in the form of long glucose chains called glycogen.

During exercise, glycogen is broken down to glucose which then goes through

a sequence of enzymatic reactions that do not require oxygen to proceed. All

of these reactions occur out in the cell fluid, or cytosol. They can occur

very rapidly and yield some ATP in the process. This pathway is called the

anaerobic (no oxygen) glycolysis (glucose breakdown) pathway. Every single

glucose molecule must go through this sequence of reactions for useful

energy to be withdrawn and converted to ATP, the energy molecule, that fuels

muscle contraction, and all other cellular energy dependant functions.

The Metabolic Fork in the Road

There is a critical metabolic fork in the road at the end of this chemical

pathway. At this fork, glucose has been converted from one 6 carbon molecule

to two, 3 carbon molecules called pyruvic acid, or pyruvate. This pyruvate

can either be shuttled into the mitochondria via the enzyme pyruvate

dehydrogenase, or be converted to lactic acid via the enzyme lactate

dehydrogenase. Entry into the mitochondria exposes the pyruvate to further

enzymatic breakdown, oxidation, and a high ATP yield per glucose. Conversion

to lactate means a temporary dead end in the energy yielding process, and

the potential for contractile fatigue due to decreasing cellular pH if

lactic acid accumulation proceeds unchecked. Like a leaf floating in a

river, the pyruvate molecule has no " say " in which metabolic direction is

taken.

Lea

Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage girls

Gookinaid is better for hydration because it doesn't have all that sugar

and

artificial stuff in it. Sugar can raise levels of lactate. Look up

Gookinaid online at Google...it needs to be ordered online as well.

Also, a couple of the best forms of calcium are calcium citrate, or

calcium

malate. Calcium carbonate is not absorbed well and can mess up digestion

too. Calcium is best taken when it is in combination with magnesium, zinc

and vitamin D in a balanced formula and like all vitamins should be

purchased from a quality company. Also, it is best to take it with meals.

Lea

, you might want to give her Gator Aid. This time of year

hydration has to be of consideration. It's really easy to get

dehydrated, and supplements can certainly make us even more

dehydrated. This would help with an electrolyte imbalance as well.

Good luck, I hope she feels better !

bug

January 13, 2005

Hi Barbara,

I'm afraid I don't have the answers to all your questions...although I have

asked my daughter who majored in microbiology to explain why sugar might raise

lactate a lot...she said she would try to give me a scientific explanation in

the next day or so.

Also, I am going back to see Dr. Shoffner sometime this Spring after he is

finished sequencing my mito DNA and I will take a list of questions for him to

answer. I am hoping that my daughter could accompany me on the trip as she

could understand a lot of the scientific stuff a lot better than I can. My

brain seems to be affected by this mito thing and gets tired very quickly, as

does every other part of me!

Personally, I think that since our mitochondria are damaged we tend to take the

lactate pathway frequently and when a lot of glucose is available...such as when

we eat a lot of sugar or refined carbs...our lactate pathway starts going into

overdrive. That is only my opinion, however...but it would make sense since

lactate levels rise when we have eaten. Perhaps that is why they want us to

fast when they do the testing.

I know that both Tim and I seem to feel better before we eat. Both he and I

have a lot anerobic threshold so our oxygen utilization is badly impaired. Tim

doesn't have the same diagnosis as I do...they are still trying to figure out

what is causing his problems.

I have been diagnosed with a complex I defect by Shoffner. I figure that means

that I have a kind of " short circuit " even before I can begin Oxidatative

Phosphorylation and that is probably why I produce so much lactate and to

anerobic so quickly since I don't produce much energy aerobically. I also have

high pyruvate which I guess means that it is there ready to go into the ATP

cycle and produce energy but somehow can't get in to do its job and is just left

lying around in my body.

As for what determines what path or " fork in the road " the glucose takes, I

don't know...I don't know if the docs know either, but I will keep looking and

will post when I get any info. Take care.

Lea

Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage girls

Gookinaid is better for hydration because it doesn't have all that sugar

and

artificial stuff in it. Sugar can raise levels of lactate. Look up

Gookinaid online at Google...it needs to be ordered online as well.

Also, a couple of the best forms of calcium are calcium citrate, or

calcium

malate. Calcium carbonate is not absorbed well and can mess up digestion

too. Calcium is best taken when it is in combination with magnesium, zinc

and vitamin D in a balanced formula and like all vitamins should be

purchased from a quality company. Also, it is best to take it with meals.

Lea

, you might want to give her Gator Aid. This time of year

hydration has to be of consideration. It's really easy to get

dehydrated, and supplements can certainly make us even more

dehydrated. This would help with an electrolyte imbalance as well.

Good luck, I hope she feels better !

bug

January 13, 2005

Thanks, Lea. I can understand why you'd want to take your daughter along as

" interpreter. " Many times I have wished for one of those too! Anyway, I

appreciated your posts and when I can I will keep searching for more on this

connection. It got me to thinking about other possibilities beyond my

hyperinsulinemia as to why carbohydrates make some of my symptoms worse.

Take care,

Barbara

_____

From: Lea

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:44 PM

To:

Subject: Re: carbs and lactic acid

Hi Barbara,

I'm afraid I don't have the answers to all your questions...although I have

asked my daughter who majored in microbiology to explain why sugar might

raise lactate a lot...she said she would try to give me a scientific

explanation in the next day or so.

Also, I am going back to see Dr. Shoffner sometime this Spring after he is

finished sequencing my mito DNA and I will take a list of questions for him

to answer. I am hoping that my daughter could accompany me on the trip as

she could understand a lot of the scientific stuff a lot better than I can.

My brain seems to be affected by this mito thing and gets tired very

quickly, as does every other part of me!

Personally, I think that since our mitochondria are damaged we tend to take

the lactate pathway frequently and when a lot of glucose is available...such

as when we eat a lot of sugar or refined carbs...our lactate pathway starts

going into overdrive. That is only my opinion, however...but it would make

sense since lactate levels rise when we have eaten. Perhaps that is why

they want us to fast when they do the testing.

I know that both Tim and I seem to feel better before we eat. Both he and I

have a lot anerobic threshold so our oxygen utilization is badly impaired.

Tim doesn't have the same diagnosis as I do...they are still trying to

figure out what is causing his problems.

I have been diagnosed with a complex I defect by Shoffner. I figure that

means that I have a kind of " short circuit " even before I can begin

Oxidatative Phosphorylation and that is probably why I produce so much

lactate and to anerobic so quickly since I don't produce much energy

aerobically. I also have high pyruvate which I guess means that it is there

ready to go into the ATP cycle and produce energy but somehow can't get in

to do its job and is just left lying around in my body.

As for what determines what path or " fork in the road " the glucose takes, I

don't know...I don't know if the docs know either, but I will keep looking

and will post when I get any info. Take care.

Lea

Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage girls

Gookinaid is better for hydration because it doesn't have all that sugar

and

artificial stuff in it. Sugar can raise levels of lactate. Look up

Gookinaid online at Google...it needs to be ordered online as well.

Also, a couple of the best forms of calcium are calcium citrate, or

calcium

malate. Calcium carbonate is not absorbed well and can mess up

digestion

too. Calcium is best taken when it is in combination with magnesium,

zinc

and vitamin D in a balanced formula and like all vitamins should be

purchased from a quality company. Also, it is best to take it with

meals.

Lea

, you might want to give her Gator Aid. This time of year

hydration has to be of consideration. It's really easy to get

dehydrated, and supplements can certainly make us even more

dehydrated. This would help with an electrolyte imbalance as well.

Good luck, I hope she feels better !

bug

January 13, 2005

I also find this thread interesting. I have always known I do better

with protein, but anymore, if I do eat simple carbs, I get muscle pain

within 10-15 minutes of me eating the carbs. It is different pain than

the cramping pain I get from any type of activity.

Barbara Seaman wrote:

>Thanks, Lea. I can understand why you'd want to take your daughter along as

> " interpreter. " Many times I have wished for one of those too! Anyway, I

>appreciated your posts and when I can I will keep searching for more on this

>connection. It got me to thinking about other possibilities beyond my

>hyperinsulinemia as to why carbohydrates make some of my symptoms worse.

>

>Take care,

>

>Barbara

>

> _____

>

>From: Lea

>Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:44 PM

>To:

>Subject: Re: carbs and lactic acid

>

>Hi Barbara,

>

>I'm afraid I don't have the answers to all your questions...although I have

>asked my daughter who majored in microbiology to explain why sugar might

>raise lactate a lot...she said she would try to give me a scientific

>explanation in the next day or so.

>

>Also, I am going back to see Dr. Shoffner sometime this Spring after he is

>finished sequencing my mito DNA and I will take a list of questions for him

>to answer. I am hoping that my daughter could accompany me on the trip as

>she could understand a lot of the scientific stuff a lot better than I can.

>My brain seems to be affected by this mito thing and gets tired very

>quickly, as does every other part of me!

>

>Personally, I think that since our mitochondria are damaged we tend to take

>the lactate pathway frequently and when a lot of glucose is available...such

>as when we eat a lot of sugar or refined carbs...our lactate pathway starts

>going into overdrive. That is only my opinion, however...but it would make

>sense since lactate levels rise when we have eaten. Perhaps that is why

>they want us to fast when they do the testing.

>

>I know that both Tim and I seem to feel better before we eat. Both he and I

>have a lot anerobic threshold so our oxygen utilization is badly impaired.

>Tim doesn't have the same diagnosis as I do...they are still trying to

>figure out what is causing his problems.

>

>I have been diagnosed with a complex I defect by Shoffner. I figure that

>means that I have a kind of " short circuit " even before I can begin

>Oxidatative Phosphorylation and that is probably why I produce so much

>lactate and to anerobic so quickly since I don't produce much energy

>aerobically. I also have high pyruvate which I guess means that it is there

>ready to go into the ATP cycle and produce energy but somehow can't get in

>to do its job and is just left lying around in my body.

>

>As for what determines what path or " fork in the road " the glucose takes, I

>don't know...I don't know if the docs know either, but I will keep looking

>and will post when I get any info. Take care.

>

>Lea

> Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage girls

>

> Gookinaid is better for hydration because it doesn't have all that sugar

> and

> artificial stuff in it. Sugar can raise levels of lactate. Look up

> Gookinaid online at Google...it needs to be ordered online as well.

>

> Also, a couple of the best forms of calcium are calcium citrate, or

> calcium

> malate. Calcium carbonate is not absorbed well and can mess up

>digestion

> too. Calcium is best taken when it is in combination with magnesium,

>zinc

> and vitamin D in a balanced formula and like all vitamins should be

> purchased from a quality company. Also, it is best to take it with

>meals.

>

> Lea

>

> , you might want to give her Gator Aid. This time of year

> hydration has to be of consideration. It's really easy to get

> dehydrated, and supplements can certainly make us even more

> dehydrated. This would help with an electrolyte imbalance as well.

> Good luck, I hope she feels better !

>

> bug

>

January 13, 2005

Thanks, Lea

for the connection between carbs, especially simple carbs, and

lactate. I can assoclate all of my major crashes with eating too many

carbs. It took a while to make the connection, but now that I have I

am convinced that I am much better off on protein and fats, and I make

sure that the restricted carbs I do take are with fats. I thought that

problem was due more to low blood sugar, since I tested strongly

hypoglycemic on the glucose tolerance test. It didn't add up totally

though, and I think the increased lactate is another piece of the

puzzle for me. Very interesting. A major relationship I am still

testing is between all food and getting very tired, to the point of

non-functional sometimes, 30-60 minutes afterwards. Seems I do best in

the part of the day that I don't eat anything at all.

I have read that exercise, and here defined as movement, not

necessarily strength work, helps the body " clear " lactic acid. Also

that some things act as buffers for lactic acid, among them L-glutamine

and Alka Selzer. (For sure I cant take all the sodium in Alka Selzer)

Unfortunately, I can't find that source - I think it was in one of the

muscle magazines, but just cant locate it at this point. While it

won't cure us, if we can do something to reduce, eliminate, or

neutralize the lactate, it seems like it might help to reduce some of

our symptoms. I wish I knew more!

It is so comforting to be able to share experiences and share (mostly

learn) on this site. I appreciate everyone's postings.

Regards

Sunny

> I also find this thread interesting. I have always known I do better

> with protein, but anymore, if I do eat simple carbs, I get muscle pain

> within 10-15 minutes of me eating the carbs. It is different pain

> than

> the cramping pain I get from any type of activity.

>

> Barbara Seaman wrote:

>

> >Thanks, Lea. I can understand why you'd want to take your daughter

> along as

> > " interpreter. " Many times I have wished for one of those too!

> Anyway, I

> >appreciated your posts and when I can I will keep searching for more

> on this

> >connection. It got me to thinking about other possibilities beyond my

> >hyperinsulinemia as to why carbohydrates make some of my symptoms

> worse.

> >

> >Take care,

> >

> >Barbara

> >

> > _____

> >

> >From: Lea

> >Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:44 PM

> >To:

> >Subject: Re: carbs and lactic acid

> >

> >Hi Barbara,

> >

> >I'm afraid I don't have the answers to all your questions...although

> I have

> >asked my daughter who majored in microbiology to explain why sugar

> might

> >raise lactate a lot...she said she would try to give me a scientific

> >explanation in the next day or so.

> >

> >Also, I am going back to see Dr. Shoffner sometime this Spring after

> he is

> >finished sequencing my mito DNA and I will take a list of questions

> for him

> >to answer. I am hoping that my daughter could accompany me on the

> trip as

> >she could understand a lot of the scientific stuff a lot better than

> I can.

> >My brain seems to be affected by this mito thing and gets tired very

> >quickly, as does every other part of me!

> >

> >Personally, I think that since our mitochondria are damaged we tend

> to take

> >the lactate pathway frequently and when a lot of glucose is

> available...such

> >as when we eat a lot of sugar or refined carbs...our lactate pathway

> starts

> >going into overdrive. That is only my opinion, however...but it

> would make

> >sense since lactate levels rise when we have eaten. Perhaps that is

> why

> >they want us to fast when they do the testing.

> >

> >I know that both Tim and I seem to feel better before we eat. Both

> he and I

> >have a lot anerobic threshold so our oxygen utilization is badly

> impaired.

> >Tim doesn't have the same diagnosis as I do...they are still trying

> to

> >figure out what is causing his problems.

> >

> >I have been diagnosed with a complex I defect by Shoffner. I figure

> that

> >means that I have a kind of " short circuit " even before I can begin

> >Oxidatative Phosphorylation and that is probably why I produce so

> much

> >lactate and to anerobic so quickly since I don't produce much energy

> >aerobically. I also have high pyruvate which I guess means that it

> is there

> >ready to go into the ATP cycle and produce energy but somehow can't

> get in

> >to do its job and is just left lying around in my body.

> >

> >As for what determines what path or " fork in the road " the glucose

> takes, I

> >don't know...I don't know if the docs know either, but I will keep

> looking

> >and will post when I get any info. Take care.

> >

> >Lea

> > Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage girls

> >

> > Gookinaid is better for hydration because it doesn't have all

> that sugar

> > and

> > artificial stuff in it. Sugar can raise levels of lactate.

> Look up

> > Gookinaid online at Google...it needs to be ordered online as

> well.

> >

> > Also, a couple of the best forms of calcium are calcium citrate,

> or

> > calcium

> > malate. Calcium carbonate is not absorbed well and can mess up

> >digestion

> > too. Calcium is best taken when it is in combination with

> magnesium,

> >zinc

> > and vitamin D in a balanced formula and like all vitamins should

> be

> > purchased from a quality company. Also, it is best to take it

> with

> >meals.

> >

> > Lea

> >

> > , you might want to give her Gator Aid. This time of year

> > hydration has to be of consideration. It's really easy to get

> > dehydrated, and supplements can certainly make us even more

> > dehydrated. This would help with an electrolyte imbalance as

> well.

> > Good luck, I hope she feels better !

> >

> > bug

> >

January 13, 2005

Interesting, RH

Thanks for sharing your experience. I sometimes wonder if I am correct

about my observations. My symptom relief is not nearly as dramatic as

yours. Good for you. Also, interesting, that we both have the

reactive hypoglycemia. Funny thing, the docs tell you to take some

sugar or OJ when you have an episode, and I have to do the opposite. I

guess it it the mito and insulin both working oddly.

I do appreciate your sharing your experience, and I will try harder to

be faithful to my diet,, cause I had gotten a little careless about it.

Thanks again, and continued good luck with it.

BTW On this diet, I am quite careful about my fats, keeping the

saturated fats down, and hitting the good fats like olive oil, and

adding Omega 3's. I think there is a lot of good health benefit they

are finding out about the " good " fats. Not for mito, I just mean for

general health, especially coronary.

Regards, everyone

Sunny

>

> I was told by my mito doc to *avoid* the Atkins diet, she was

> concerned that my fat metabolism would be messed up because of my

> mitochondrial disease (I have Complex I and other defects).

>

> But, I decided to try it last June, and it's worked well for me. I

> may be an exception to the rule, but for the first time in 10 years I

> was able to walk in the mall without getting tired (this was still

> using my daughter's stroller as a walker though, so not exactly

> sprinting).

>

> I'm on an easier phase of the Atkins diet now, I eat some carbs now

> and then, mostly veggies and some fruits, but I avoid pasta and

> regular breads. I try to completely avoid carbs if I need to drive

> or do other physical activities; I get double vision pretty quickly

> if I start eating too many carbs.

>

> I also lost about 15 lbs., and as long as I don't binge too much (on

> carbs, you can eat as much of allowed stuff as you want) I keep the

> weight off easily.

>

> I do wonder if the reason I am doing well on a high protein, high

> fat, low carb diet is because I am glucose intolerant (not quite

> diabetes, but close - failed one of four GTT levels, two failed would

> be diabetes) and have reactive hypoglycemia. The latter is when you

> eat too much, your body gives out too much insulin, and ends up

> reducing your blood sugar too much.

>

> YMMV, I'm not a doctor, but that's what I've found. I think one

> should know within a day or two whether the diet is " working " in

> terms of increasing energy and decreasing symptoms, and I would never

> have tried the diet if I had kidney or liver problems.

>

> The funny part is, me and my husband (no mito, but also on the diet

> for weight loss) are now sharing a bowl of low-carb ice cream every

> night, and still keeping the weight off. Turkey Hill Carb IQ Ice

> Cream is the BEST!!! It tastes as good as regular Welsh Farms...

>

> Sometimes I wonder if the problem starts with the saliva

> not " preprocessing " the carbohydrates correctly, either because of

> dysphagia and improper chewing or something inherently wrong with the

> amylase (enzyme that is first step in carb breakdown) in saliva.

>

> Take care,

> RH

>

> > >

> > > >Thanks, Lea. I can understand why you'd want to take your

> daughter

> > > along as

> > > > " interpreter. " Many times I have wished for one of those too!

> > > Anyway, I

> > > >appreciated your posts and when I can I will keep searching for

> more

> > > on this

> > > >connection. It got me to thinking about other possibilities

> beyond my

> > > >hyperinsulinemia as to why carbohydrates make some of my

> symptoms

> > > worse.

> > > >

> > > >Take care,

> > > >

> > > >Barbara

> > > >

> > > > _____

> > > >

> > > >From: Lea [mailto:leafish@m...]

> > > >Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:44 PM

> > > >To:

> > > >Subject: Re: carbs and lactic acid

> > > >

> > > >Hi Barbara,

> > > >

> > > >I'm afraid I don't have the answers to all your

> questions...although

> > > I have

> > > >asked my daughter who majored in microbiology to explain why

> sugar

> > > might

> > > >raise lactate a lot...she said she would try to give me a

> scientific

> > > >explanation in the next day or so.

> > > >

> > > >Also, I am going back to see Dr. Shoffner sometime this Spring

> after

> > > he is

> > > >finished sequencing my mito DNA and I will take a list of

> questions

> > > for him

> > > >to answer. I am hoping that my daughter could accompany me on

> the

> > > trip as

> > > >she could understand a lot of the scientific stuff a lot better

> than

> > > I can.

> > > >My brain seems to be affected by this mito thing and gets tired

> very

> > > >quickly, as does every other part of me!

> > > >

> > > >Personally, I think that since our mitochondria are damaged we

> tend

> > > to take

> > > >the lactate pathway frequently and when a lot of glucose is

> > > available...such

> > > >as when we eat a lot of sugar or refined carbs...our lactate

> pathway

> > > starts

> > > >going into overdrive. That is only my opinion, however...but

> it

> > > would make

> > > >sense since lactate levels rise when we have eaten. Perhaps

> that is

> > > why

> > > >they want us to fast when they do the testing.

> > > >

> > > >I know that both Tim and I seem to feel better before we eat.

> Both

> > > he and I

> > > >have a lot anerobic threshold so our oxygen utilization is

> badly

> > > impaired.

> > > >Tim doesn't have the same diagnosis as I do...they are still

> trying

> > > to

> > > >figure out what is causing his problems.

> > > >

> > > >I have been diagnosed with a complex I defect by Shoffner. I

> figure

> > > that

> > > >means that I have a kind of " short circuit " even before I can

> begin

> > > >Oxidatative Phosphorylation and that is probably why I produce

> so

> > > much

> > > >lactate and to anerobic so quickly since I don't produce much

> energy

> > > >aerobically. I also have high pyruvate which I guess means

> that it

> > > is there

> > > >ready to go into the ATP cycle and produce energy but somehow

> can't

> > > get in

> > > >to do its job and is just left lying around in my body.

> > > >

> > > >As for what determines what path or " fork in the road " the

> glucose

> > > takes, I

> > > >don't know...I don't know if the docs know either, but I will

> keep

> > > looking

> > > >and will post when I get any info. Take care.

> > > >

> > > >Lea

> > > > Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage

> girls

> > > >

> > > > Gookinaid is better for hydration because it doesn't have

> all

> > > that sugar

> > > > and

> > > > artificial stuff in it. Sugar can raise levels of

> lactate.

> > > Look up

> > > > Gookinaid online at Google...it needs to be ordered online

> as

> > > well.

> > > >

> > > > Also, a couple of the best forms of calcium are calcium

> citrate,

> > > or

> > > > calcium

> > > > malate. Calcium carbonate is not absorbed well and can

> mess up

> > > >digestion

> > > > too. Calcium is best taken when it is in combination with

> > > magnesium,

> > > >zinc

> > > > and vitamin D in a balanced formula and like all vitamins

> should

> > > be

> > > > purchased from a quality company. Also, it is best to take

> it

> > > with

> > > >meals.

> > > >

> > > > Lea

> > > >

> > > > , you might want to give her Gator Aid. This time of

> year

> > > > hydration has to be of consideration. It's really easy to

> get

> > > > dehydrated, and supplements can certainly make us even more

> > > > dehydrated. This would help with an electrolyte imbalance

> as

> > > well.

> > > > Good luck, I hope she feels better !

> > > >

> > > > bug

> > > >

January 13, 2005

>

> Sometimes I wonder if the problem starts with the saliva

> not " preprocessing " the carbohydrates correctly, either because of

> dysphagia and improper chewing or something inherently wrong with the

> amylase (enzyme that is first step in carb breakdown) in saliva.

This is intersting as 9 years ago I lost a great deal of my saliva

production and started putting on weight from that point.

margo

>

January 13, 2005

Margo

I do check my blood sugar and digesting food seems to be what I deal with

after eating. If I want to go to the store (using wheelchair) and out to

eat, then the store has to come first. If I eat first, I will not go to the

store do to fatigue.

laurie

>

> Reply-To:

> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:08:57 -0700 (MST)

> To:

> Subject: Re: carbs and lactic acid

>

>>

>> Sunny,

>>

>> It takes a LOT of energy to digest food even for non-mito folks.

>> Remember all the naps after Thanksgiving dinners? If makes perfect

>> sense to be tired at about the time you are after eating.

>

> Two things here to consider. One is that turkey contains triptophan (sp)

> which helps put people to sleep if taken at night, that is the connection

> between getting sleepy after Thanksgiving dinners! The other is that if

> one's blood sugar after a meal rises too high this can produce feelings of

> intense sleepiness/drowsiness and it usually happens around the 1 hour

> mark give or take 15 minutes or so. Having a blood sugar monitor such as

> that which diabetics use can solve the riddle here, in fact diabetes may

> be part of the picture itself.

>

> Margo>

>

> Medical advice, information, opinions, data and statements contained herein

> are not necessarily those of the list moderators. The author of this e mail is

> entirely responsible for its content. List members are reminded of their

> responsibility to evaluate the content of the postings and consult with their

> physicians regarding changes in their own treatment.

>

> Personal attacks are not permitted on the list and anyone who sends one is

> automatically moderated or removed depending on the severity of the attack.

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

January 13, 2005

Thank you, Margo.

I get really really low on energy and mental function after a meal,

even a very small one. Observing my friends and husband, this just

does not happen to them at all to the same degree. Something is

irregular. I would guess that my blood sugar level goes down after a

meal. Post prandial hypoglycemia. My glucose level went to 31 (and the

lab said they checked it twice) at the two hour mark of the glucose

tolerance test, and at that time is when I felt my worse during that

test. So, my guess was that my unwell feelings are due to low and not

high blood sugar. But, the idea that carbs may result in the lactate

level being elevated may also explain some of the fatigue, and that

stimulates me to go back and do a " pure " low carb for a few days, to

see if it makes any difference. I have been eating things like yoghurt

and milk, which have some carbs, and sometimes downright cheating with

a piece of candy or slice of pizza!

Thanks for your comments. Always good to consider all the

possibilities.

Regards

Sunny

>

> >

> > Sunny,

> >

> > It takes a LOT of energy to digest food even for non-mito folks.

> > Remember all the naps after Thanksgiving dinners? If makes perfect

> > sense to be tired at about the time you are after eating.

>

> Two things here to consider. One is that turkey contains triptophan

> (sp)

> which helps put people to sleep if taken at night, that is the

> connection

> between getting sleepy after Thanksgiving dinners! The other is that

> if

> one's blood sugar after a meal rises too high this can produce

> feelings of

> intense sleepiness/drowsiness and it usually happens around the 1 hour

> mark give or take 15 minutes or so. Having a blood sugar monitor

> such as

> that which diabetics use can solve the riddle here, in fact diabetes

> may

> be part of the picture itself.

>

> Margo>

>

> Medical advice, information, opinions, data and statements contained

> herein are not necessarily those of the list moderators. The author of

> this e mail is entirely responsible for its content. List members are

> reminded of their responsibility to evaluate the content of the

> postings and consult with their physicians regarding changes in their

> own treatment.

>

> Personal attacks are not permitted on the list and anyone who sends

> one is automatically moderated or removed depending on the severity of

> the attack.

>

January 13, 2005

Sunny and RH

I have a complete absence of Complex I with a functional II and either a

functional or actual Complex III defect. Dr. Cohen said to try a high fat

diet as it made sense that since the fats enter at complex II, that it

should jump start the process beyond I. He also said that for some reason,

what makes sense usually isn't what works. He said that we just need to try

different diets and see which ones work best.

I was unable to function on the high fat diet. I have found that I need an

adequate amount of protein and then both complex carbs and fat. Without all

three I feel lousy. We seem to all be so different even with similar defects

laurie

> From: z39z@...

> Reply-To:

> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:18:24 -0500

> To:

> Subject: Re: carbs and lactic acid

>

> Interesting, RH

>

> Thanks for sharing your experience. I sometimes wonder if I am correct

> about my observations. My symptom relief is not nearly as dramatic as

> yours. Good for you. Also, interesting, that we both have the

> reactive hypoglycemia. Funny thing, the docs tell you to take some

> sugar or OJ when you have an episode, and I have to do the opposite. I

> guess it it the mito and insulin both working oddly.

> I do appreciate your sharing your experience, and I will try harder to

> be faithful to my diet,, cause I had gotten a little careless about it.

> Thanks again, and continued good luck with it.

>

> BTW On this diet, I am quite careful about my fats, keeping the

> saturated fats down, and hitting the good fats like olive oil, and

> adding Omega 3's. I think there is a lot of good health benefit they

> are finding out about the " good " fats. Not for mito, I just mean for

> general health, especially coronary.

>

> Regards, everyone

>

> Sunny

>

>>

>> I was told by my mito doc to *avoid* the Atkins diet, she was

>> concerned that my fat metabolism would be messed up because of my

>> mitochondrial disease (I have Complex I and other defects).

>>

>> But, I decided to try it last June, and it's worked well for me. I

>> may be an exception to the rule, but for the first time in 10 years I

>> was able to walk in the mall without getting tired (this was still

>> using my daughter's stroller as a walker though, so not exactly

>> sprinting).

>>

>> I'm on an easier phase of the Atkins diet now, I eat some carbs now

>> and then, mostly veggies and some fruits, but I avoid pasta and

>> regular breads. I try to completely avoid carbs if I need to drive

>> or do other physical activities; I get double vision pretty quickly

>> if I start eating too many carbs.

>>

>> I also lost about 15 lbs., and as long as I don't binge too much (on

>> carbs, you can eat as much of allowed stuff as you want) I keep the

>> weight off easily.

>>

>> I do wonder if the reason I am doing well on a high protein, high

>> fat, low carb diet is because I am glucose intolerant (not quite

>> diabetes, but close - failed one of four GTT levels, two failed would

>> be diabetes) and have reactive hypoglycemia. The latter is when you

>> eat too much, your body gives out too much insulin, and ends up

>> reducing your blood sugar too much.

>>

>> YMMV, I'm not a doctor, but that's what I've found. I think one

>> should know within a day or two whether the diet is " working " in

>> terms of increasing energy and decreasing symptoms, and I would never

>> have tried the diet if I had kidney or liver problems.

>>

>> The funny part is, me and my husband (no mito, but also on the diet

>> for weight loss) are now sharing a bowl of low-carb ice cream every

>> night, and still keeping the weight off. Turkey Hill Carb IQ Ice

>> Cream is the BEST!!! It tastes as good as regular Welsh Farms...

>>

>> Sometimes I wonder if the problem starts with the saliva

>> not " preprocessing " the carbohydrates correctly, either because of

>> dysphagia and improper chewing or something inherently wrong with the

>> amylase (enzyme that is first step in carb breakdown) in saliva.

>>

>> Take care,

>> RH

>>

>>>>

>>>> >Thanks, Lea. I can understand why you'd want to take your

>> daughter

>>>> along as

>>>> > " interpreter. " Many times I have wished for one of those too!

>>>> Anyway, I

>>>> >appreciated your posts and when I can I will keep searching for

>> more

>>>> on this

>>>> >connection. It got me to thinking about other possibilities

>> beyond my

>>>> >hyperinsulinemia as to why carbohydrates make some of my

>> symptoms

>>>> worse.

>>>> >

>>>> >Take care,

>>>> >

>>>> >Barbara

>>>> >

>>>> > _____

>>>> >

>>>> >From: Lea [mailto:leafish@m...]

>>>> >Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:44 PM

>>>> >To:

>>>> >Subject: Re: carbs and lactic acid

>>>> >

>>>> >Hi Barbara,

>>>> >

>>>> >I'm afraid I don't have the answers to all your

>> questions...although

>>>> I have

>>>> >asked my daughter who majored in microbiology to explain why

>> sugar

>>>> might

>>>> >raise lactate a lot...she said she would try to give me a

>> scientific

>>>> >explanation in the next day or so.

>>>> >

>>>> >Also, I am going back to see Dr. Shoffner sometime this Spring

>> after

>>>> he is

>>>> >finished sequencing my mito DNA and I will take a list of

>> questions

>>>> for him

>>>> >to answer. I am hoping that my daughter could accompany me on

>> the

>>>> trip as

>>>> >she could understand a lot of the scientific stuff a lot better

>> than

>>>> I can.

>>>> >My brain seems to be affected by this mito thing and gets tired

>> very

>>>> >quickly, as does every other part of me!

>>>> >

>>>> >Personally, I think that since our mitochondria are damaged we

>> tend

>>>> to take

>>>> >the lactate pathway frequently and when a lot of glucose is

>>>> available...such

>>>> >as when we eat a lot of sugar or refined carbs...our lactate

>> pathway

>>>> starts

>>>> >going into overdrive. That is only my opinion, however...but

>> it

>>>> would make

>>>> >sense since lactate levels rise when we have eaten. Perhaps

>> that is

>>>> why

>>>> >they want us to fast when they do the testing.

>>>> >

>>>> >I know that both Tim and I seem to feel better before we eat.

>> Both

>>>> he and I

>>>> >have a lot anerobic threshold so our oxygen utilization is

>> badly

>>>> impaired.

>>>> >Tim doesn't have the same diagnosis as I do...they are still

>> trying

>>>> to

>>>> >figure out what is causing his problems.

>>>> >

>>>> >I have been diagnosed with a complex I defect by Shoffner. I

>> figure

>>>> that

>>>> >means that I have a kind of " short circuit " even before I can

>> begin

>>>> >Oxidatative Phosphorylation and that is probably why I produce

>> so

>>>> much

>>>> >lactate and to anerobic so quickly since I don't produce much

>> energy

>>>> >aerobically. I also have high pyruvate which I guess means

>> that it

>>>> is there

>>>> >ready to go into the ATP cycle and produce energy but somehow

>> can't

>>>> get in

>>>> >to do its job and is just left lying around in my body.

>>>> >

>>>> >As for what determines what path or " fork in the road " the

>> glucose

>>>> takes, I

>>>> >don't know...I don't know if the docs know either, but I will

>> keep

>>>> looking

>>>> >and will post when I get any info. Take care.

>>>> >

>>>> >Lea

>>>> > Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage

>> girls

>>>> >

>>>> > Gookinaid is better for hydration because it doesn't have

>> all

>>>> that sugar

>>>> > and

>>>> > artificial stuff in it. Sugar can raise levels of

>> lactate.

>>>> Look up

>>>> > Gookinaid online at Google...it needs to be ordered online

>> as

>>>> well.

>>>> >

>>>> > Also, a couple of the best forms of calcium are calcium

>> citrate,

>>>> or

>>>> > calcium

>>>> > malate. Calcium carbonate is not absorbed well and can

>> mess up

>>>> >digestion

>>>> > too. Calcium is best taken when it is in combination with

>>>> magnesium,

>>>> >zinc

>>>> > and vitamin D in a balanced formula and like all vitamins

>> should

>>>> be

>>>> > purchased from a quality company. Also, it is best to take

>> it

>>>> with

>>>> >meals.

>>>> >

>>>> > Lea

>>>> >

>>>> > , you might want to give her Gator Aid. This time of

>> year

>>>> > hydration has to be of consideration. It's really easy to

>> get

>>>> > dehydrated, and supplements can certainly make us even more

>>>> > dehydrated. This would help with an electrolyte imbalance

>> as

>>>> well.

>>>> > Good luck, I hope she feels better !

>>>> >

>>>> > bug

>>>> >

January 13, 2005

I was tested in Sept 2003. I called the office recently and his assistant

called the lab...they said it should be about April. Here's hoping!

Lea

Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage girls

>

> Gookinaid is better for hydration because it doesn't have all

that sugar

> and

> artificial stuff in it. Sugar can raise levels of lactate.

Look up

> Gookinaid online at Google...it needs to be ordered online as

well.

>

> Also, a couple of the best forms of calcium are calcium

citrate, or

> calcium

> malate. Calcium carbonate is not absorbed well and can mess up

digestion

> too. Calcium is best taken when it is in combination with

magnesium, zinc

> and vitamin D in a balanced formula and like all vitamins

should be

> purchased from a quality company. Also, it is best to take it

with meals.

>

> Lea

>

> , you might want to give her Gator Aid. This time of

year

> hydration has to be of consideration. It's really easy to get

> dehydrated, and supplements can certainly make us even more

> dehydrated. This would help with an electrolyte imbalance as

well.

> Good luck, I hope she feels better !

>

> bug

>

January 14, 2005

RH

I also had genetic testing done following my muscle biopsy by Dr. Shoffner.

The genetic portion took just under 2 years. The first part on the live

tissue that people are getting back fairly soon, took over a year, so things

have improved. The testing was done on the fresh sample, but the hold up was

getting the report put together which was many, many pages long.

laurie

>

> Reply-To:

> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:01:16 -0500

> To: >

> Subject: Re: carbs and lactic acid

>

> I was tested in Sept 2003. I called the office recently and his assistant

> called the lab...they said it should be about April. Here's hoping!

> Lea

> Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage girls

>>

>> Gookinaid is better for hydration because it doesn't have all

> that sugar

>> and

>> artificial stuff in it. Sugar can raise levels of lactate.

> Look up

>> Gookinaid online at Google...it needs to be ordered online as

> well.

>>

>> Also, a couple of the best forms of calcium are calcium

> citrate, or

>> calcium

>> malate. Calcium carbonate is not absorbed well and can mess up

> digestion

>> too. Calcium is best taken when it is in combination with

> magnesium, zinc

>> and vitamin D in a balanced formula and like all vitamins

> should be

>> purchased from a quality company. Also, it is best to take it

> with meals.

>>

>> Lea

>>

>> , you might want to give her Gator Aid. This time of

> year

>> hydration has to be of consideration. It's really easy to get

>> dehydrated, and supplements can certainly make us even more

>> dehydrated. This would help with an electrolyte imbalance as

> well.

>> Good luck, I hope she feels better !

>>

>> bug

>>

January 14, 2005

I am with you, as far as the Atkins diet. It created miracles for me

personally. I now have my Type 1 diabetic mother on it, and she has dropped 17

units of insulin from the time I moved her to Little Rock, a year and a half

ago, and close to 20 pounds! She has gone from a size 22 to a size 18 and her

blood sugar is the most stable it has ever been.

Now mind you, she isnt totally strict but overall she falls in the low to

moderate carb level most days. (below 90 carbs a day as opposed to nothing but

carbs when she moved here!) Amazing what a little change in diet will

do.........

OTOH I think Atkins/low carbbing is definitely the answer for some of us but not

all of us. It really depends on where your defect is, and what organs it

affects the most I think. In other words, even members of the same family with

the same defect may be differently affected that way, depending on what organs

are affected. Overall tho, I would say low carbbing is THE diet answer for my

family in particular. My daughter does better when she sticks to it, and my

grandmother would but insists on her cookies " sigh " which makes her hypoglycemia

really act up. I swear by it. It does just about as much for my body as coq

does and that is saying something!

But, I decided to try it last June, and it's worked well for me. I

may be an exception to the rule, but for the first time in 10 years I

was able to walk in the mall without getting tired (this was still

using my daughter's stroller as a walker though, so not exactly

sprinting).

I'm on an easier phase of the Atkins diet now, I eat some carbs now

and then, mostly veggies and some fruits, but I avoid pasta and

regular breads. I try to completely avoid carbs if I need to drive

or do other physical activities; I get double vision pretty quickly

if I start eating too many carbs.

I also lost about 15 lbs., and as long as I don't binge too much (on

carbs, you can eat as much of allowed stuff as you want) I keep the

weight off easily.

I do wonder if the reason I am doing well on a high protein, high

fat, low carb diet is because I am glucose intolerant (not quite

diabetes, but close - failed one of four GTT levels, two failed would

be diabetes) and have reactive hypoglycemia. The latter is when you

eat too much, your body gives out too much insulin, and ends up

reducing your blood sugar too much.

YMMV, I'm not a doctor, but that's what I've found. I think one

should know within a day or two whether the diet is " working " in

terms of increasing energy and decreasing symptoms, and I would never

have tried the diet if I had kidney or liver problems.

The funny part is, me and my husband (no mito, but also on the diet

for weight loss) are now sharing a bowl of low-carb ice cream every

night, and still keeping the weight off. Turkey Hill Carb IQ Ice

Cream is the BEST!!! It tastes as good as regular Welsh Farms...

Sometimes I wonder if the problem starts with the saliva

not " preprocessing " the carbohydrates correctly, either because of

dysphagia and improper chewing or something inherently wrong with the

amylase (enzyme that is first step in carb breakdown) in saliva.

Take care,

RH

January 14, 2005

Sunny, Have they ever monitored the insulin curve during your GGTs? My

glucose also hits 30 and insulin can go as high as 650+. Has anyone else in

the group with reactive hypoglycemia had insulin monitored? I'm curious as

to what insulin numbers you get and what, if any, explanation you've been

given as to why mito causes excess insulin?

As for carbs, I am still between a rock and a hard place. My total beta

oxidation function is nil and requires carbs as an alternate source of ATP

since I can't process fats. However, sugars evoke a very bad response due to

insulin and my GI no longer tolerates many sources of complex carbs--too

hard to digest. Even small amounts of carbs of any kind makes various groups

of symptoms terribly unstable throughout the day. This response gets more

and more exaggerated as I get older. Carbs also encourage the excretion of

potassium, which I already lose through a renal leak and have to replace.

Proteins do not contribute much to ATP, so its beyond me what food I am

supposed to give my body for fuel. Different endocrinologists give me

conflicting advice. Mostly they shake their heads and say I have an

unfortunate combination of metabolic disorders. Right now I eat tons of

plain low-fat yogurt (lactose is the most slowly absorbed sugar, very low on

the glycemic index, and yogurt is full of good electrolytes) plus some

ground turkey or plain chicken with a few bites of rice or potato thrown in.

Plain non-fat yogurt--at least 30-40 oz a day, as much as I can stuff

down--seems to be the best stabilizer of energy and symptoms at this point.

I use creatine, K-Phos neutral and ribose to help boost alternate sources of

ATP. That and the nighttime Advera formula which is low-fat, high carb but

is tolerated because it is dripped in the gut so slowly. I do NOT want to go

to round-the-clock tube feeding because I can't do the tube care myself

which means someone would have to come in at regular intervals through the

day when hubby is at work.

Maybe I should add that contrary to what most of you experience, I feel

better after I eat---IF I eat the right things. The surest way to feel awful

is to go more than 2 hours without eating.

Sorry for the whine, but right now I am really feeling frustrated on the

food issue.

B

> Re: carbs and lactic acid

>

> Thank you, Margo.

>

> I get really really low on energy and mental function after a meal,

> even a very small one. Observing my friends and husband, this just

> does not happen to them at all to the same degree. Something is

> irregular. I would guess that my blood sugar level goes down after a

> meal. Post prandial hypoglycemia. My glucose level went to 31 (and the

> lab said they checked it twice) at the two hour mark of the glucose

> tolerance test, and at that time is when I felt my worse during that

> test. So, my guess was that my unwell feelings are due to low and not

> high blood sugar. But, the idea that carbs may result in the lactate

> level being elevated may also explain some of the fatigue, and that

> stimulates me to go back and do a " pure " low carb for a few days, to

> see if it makes any difference. I have been eating things like yoghurt

> and milk, which have some carbs, and sometimes downright cheating with

> a piece of candy or slice of pizza!

>

> Thanks for your comments. Always good to consider all the

> possibilities.

>

> Regards

>

> Sunny

>

> >

> > >

> > > Sunny,

> > >

> > > It takes a LOT of energy to digest food even for non-mito folks.

> > > Remember all the naps after Thanksgiving dinners? If makes perfect

> > > sense to be tired at about the time you are after eating.

> >

> > Two things here to consider. One is that turkey contains triptophan

> > (sp)

> > which helps put people to sleep if taken at night, that is the

> > connection

> > between getting sleepy after Thanksgiving dinners! The other is that

> > if

> > one's blood sugar after a meal rises too high this can produce

> > feelings of

> > intense sleepiness/drowsiness and it usually happens around the 1 hour

> > mark give or take 15 minutes or so. Having a blood sugar monitor

> > such as

> > that which diabetics use can solve the riddle here, in fact diabetes

> > may

> > be part of the picture itself.

> >

> > Margo>

> >

> > Medical advice, information, opinions, data and statements contained

> > herein are not necessarily those of the list moderators. The author of

> > this e mail is entirely responsible for its content. List members are

> > reminded of their responsibility to evaluate the content of the

> > postings and consult with their physicians regarding changes in their

> > own treatment.

> >

> > Personal attacks are not permitted on the list and anyone who sends

> > one is automatically moderated or removed depending on the severity of

> > the attack.

> >

January 14, 2005

Here is the response from my daughter about why we take the lactate

pathway...and it is in layman's terms so I think I can actually understand it !

:-)

Lea

Usually, the 'fork in the road' is the choice made by your cells when

they realize that the mitochondrial thing isn't going to work out for some

reason. Usually, that reason is that there is not enough oxygen to carry

out the 'oxidative' phosphorylation part: such as when you are exercising

a lot or if you stop breathing (not recommended.) In your case, mother, I

suspect that your foolish cells have chosen to shun the route of oxphos

because your mitochondria are broken, not because you've been suffocating.

The underlying, chemistry cause for this choice is due to the extra

electrons lying around after you bust up glucose to pyruvate. These

electrons have to be gotten rid of, and usually this is accomplished in

the electron transport chain (a part of oxphos) that eventually attaches

them to oxygen. ( This is actually the only point of having oxygen - an

electron disposal system.) When the oxphos is shut off, for aforementioned

reasons, a different method of ditching the electrons must be found.

(otherwise, they end up reacting with stuff and preventing you from

busting up any more glucose to pyruvate.) This alternative electron

ditching system is to attach them back onto an organic molecule, which

yields lactate, your infamous sore-muscle molecule.

Hope this was helpful

Re: Re: Calcium supplements and teenage girls

Gookinaid is better for hydration because it doesn't have all that sugar

and

artificial stuff in it. Sugar can raise levels of lactate. Look up

Gookinaid online at Google...it needs to be ordered online as well.

Also, a couple of the best forms of calcium are calcium citrate, or

calcium

malate. Calcium carbonate is not absorbed well and can mess up

digestion

too. Calcium is best taken when it is in combination with magnesium,

zinc

and vitamin D in a balanced formula and like all vitamins should be

purchased from a quality company. Also, it is best to take it with

meals.

Lea

, you might want to give her Gator Aid. This time of year

hydration has to be of consideration. It's really easy to get

dehydrated, and supplements can certainly make us even more

dehydrated. This would help with an electrolyte imbalance as well.

Good luck, I hope she feels better !

bug

January 14, 2005

Lea--Big thanks to your microbiologist daughter for her entertaining and

informative answer. Wish we had one in the family.

B

_____

From: Lea

Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 10:34 AM

To:

Subject: Re: carbs and lactic acid

Here is the response from my daughter about why we take the lactate

pathway...and it is in layman's terms so I think I can actually understand

it ! :-)