Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 >I get the feeling that whenever I write a posting bout >Yeshaya, >and I am not talking about last night's one in particular, >but in >general, everyone ignores it and goes on talking about Big >brother or >quilting, or whatever. I’m sorry Ruthie It really is outside the experience of many of us here, at least with our own children. Either that, or we’ve already replied with our personal experiences and don’t have more to add other than being sorry each time. I know I have posted about my nightmare sisters and might have mentioned that they each ran away at least once. Worse, one called the police when she was told off by mom (after she came home 5 hours late, reeking of alcohol at age 15) and said she had been beaten, so the police came at 3 am, there was an investigation, etc etc. I hope you don’t feel we’re not listening and sympathising, because we are. It sounds like Yeshaya has reached a new level of tennage surliness and I hope that he comes back to you (I mean emotionally, not just living there) instead of listening to his older brother. Plus, some of us are on digest and I got your message from last night and your puzzled message in the same digest, so hadn’t exactly had the chance to reply yet! Hugs to all of you, Phyllis __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 >I get the feeling that whenever I write a posting bout >Yeshaya, >and I am not talking about last night's one in particular, >but in >general, everyone ignores it and goes on talking about Big >brother or >quilting, or whatever. I’m sorry Ruthie It really is outside the experience of many of us here, at least with our own children. Either that, or we’ve already replied with our personal experiences and don’t have more to add other than being sorry each time. I know I have posted about my nightmare sisters and might have mentioned that they each ran away at least once. Worse, one called the police when she was told off by mom (after she came home 5 hours late, reeking of alcohol at age 15) and said she had been beaten, so the police came at 3 am, there was an investigation, etc etc. I hope you don’t feel we’re not listening and sympathising, because we are. It sounds like Yeshaya has reached a new level of tennage surliness and I hope that he comes back to you (I mean emotionally, not just living there) instead of listening to his older brother. Plus, some of us are on digest and I got your message from last night and your puzzled message in the same digest, so hadn’t exactly had the chance to reply yet! Hugs to all of you, Phyllis __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 > I get the feeling that whenever I write a posting bout Yeshaya, > and I am not talking about last night's one in particular, but in > general, everyone ignores it and goes on talking about Big brother or > quilting, or whatever. I am well aware that I don't often reply to your posts, and there are two reasons for it. Firstly, the whole teenage thing is just outside my experience - my oldest child is only 8, and my own teenage years are too long ago to remember. > my posts, which are written from a standpoint of profound anguish, just > get overlooked completely Secondly, and I think this is the real crux of the matter, with 4 demanding children to look after, I tend to use the coffee list as a 10 minute " time-out " for me to catch a breather and a cuppa. Half of that time will be taken up reading posts which only leaves me 5 minutes to reply. In that amount of time, I can dash off a quick comment on Big Brother or a throwaway remark on some other " light " topic, but I cannot put together the well thought out, constructive, supportive reply I would like to the more serious issues such as your problems with Yeshaya. (Typing with 2 fingers doesn't help either!) Maybe it will help you, and anybody else who is feeling unsupported or ignored, to know that I have an inbox of undeleted posts which I intend to reply to when I have the time - but of course by the time that happens, the thread is usually long finished. Though I may not actually reply, I am certainly concerned for you and hoping that you, your DH and Yeshaya can sort things out so that you are all happier together. Lynda SAHM to (8), (5), Fraser (3), Callum (15/5/00) Newsletter editor, Mid-Northumberland Branch Area Rep, Region 7 www.familygarland.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Ruth I think yahoo was playing up as I also just got these 2 messages together (and I am not on digest) it is difficult when you are going through something really difficult and then really need and want some support and help and it feel's like it is not there.. Please now that it is ;o) Lonnie Phoebe & Eloisa's mama & expecting a Christmas delivery... My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what you start. So far today, I have finished 2 bags of chips and a Chocolate cake. I feel better already. puzzled I get the feeling that whenever I write a posting bout Yeshaya, and I am not talking about last night's one in particular, but in general, everyone ignores it and goes on talking about Big brother or quilting, or whatever. Well, I suppose you have the right to be interested in whatever you want. But I find it a bit puzzling that my posts, which are written from a standpoint of profound anguish, just get overlooked completely. Maybe if you all think I should shut up about Yeshaya someone would do the decent thing and email me offlist and tell me so. Otherwise I actaully find it a bit upsetting that my desperate messages are totally ignored. The one I wrote a few days ago called B*****Y teenagers! suffered a similar fate, and I suppose that's why I am writing now, I know there hasn't been enough time for you all to respond to the latest one, but that one has been up since Thursday. In case anyone is *remotely* interested, Yeshaya came home last night around 2.30 and asked for his phone back. I wouldn't give it. He was as surly as ever, so we went and had a talk with his father. Unfortunately for me, Yeshaya seeems to think DH is *much* more rational than me, even though he didn't say anything different, or more lenient, than I did. I suppose I *was* more hysterical, despite all my advice to you all to step back, I wasn't able to when it came to my own. I don't know what will be today. Ruthie *** NCT enquiry line - 0 *** Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Ruth I think yahoo was playing up as I also just got these 2 messages together (and I am not on digest) it is difficult when you are going through something really difficult and then really need and want some support and help and it feel's like it is not there.. Please now that it is ;o) Lonnie Phoebe & Eloisa's mama & expecting a Christmas delivery... My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what you start. So far today, I have finished 2 bags of chips and a Chocolate cake. I feel better already. puzzled I get the feeling that whenever I write a posting bout Yeshaya, and I am not talking about last night's one in particular, but in general, everyone ignores it and goes on talking about Big brother or quilting, or whatever. Well, I suppose you have the right to be interested in whatever you want. But I find it a bit puzzling that my posts, which are written from a standpoint of profound anguish, just get overlooked completely. Maybe if you all think I should shut up about Yeshaya someone would do the decent thing and email me offlist and tell me so. Otherwise I actaully find it a bit upsetting that my desperate messages are totally ignored. The one I wrote a few days ago called B*****Y teenagers! suffered a similar fate, and I suppose that's why I am writing now, I know there hasn't been enough time for you all to respond to the latest one, but that one has been up since Thursday. In case anyone is *remotely* interested, Yeshaya came home last night around 2.30 and asked for his phone back. I wouldn't give it. He was as surly as ever, so we went and had a talk with his father. Unfortunately for me, Yeshaya seeems to think DH is *much* more rational than me, even though he didn't say anything different, or more lenient, than I did. I suppose I *was* more hysterical, despite all my advice to you all to step back, I wasn't able to when it came to my own. I don't know what will be today. Ruthie *** NCT enquiry line - 0 *** Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 I'd suggest Ruthie, the most helpful thing to me was my parents saying 'we don't approve but remember we love and care for you very much and are only concerned for your well being' and for them to never say 'I told you so'. Meant I came back as opposed to stayed away. > > Miranda Yes, I agree. I must confess when he said he was " leaving home " , I begged him not to. Even though I knew as I did it, it would probably have been better to use the " so, go! I'll make you sandwiches! " I think (1) he's too old for that and (2), more importantly, I didn't want him to think even for a moment, that I didn't care enough to put up a struggle. Unfortunately DD2 Tammy (29) gave him a right royal rollicking on the phone at Azariah's with Az listening in on the extension..(I might have told you all this). Tammy thought that Yeshaya had hung up on her, it turned out to be Azariah. Yeshaya now thinks she's a right old bitch, and hasn't really taken any of it on board. That's why I don't think yelling and screaming does much good. He listened *far* more willingly to DH last night at 3 a.m. being very calm and rational but just laying down some rules and expectations. I am leaving his upbringing to DH for a few days, he seems to be better at it! Ruthie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 > I am leaving his upbringing to DH for a few days, he seems to be > better at it! This I can empathise with Ruthie. I haven't replied before - partly because of little time and mostly because it is too close to home. Teenagerdom is no joke I reckon - not when you're the parent anyway. We have two girls (13 and nearly 12). They are now further apart than at any time since they were born. The 13 year old is on report for the fourth time this term. We have currently banned pocket money, telephone, computer and having friends round I think we are in for a long haul here - years of this to come - and right now I cannot see me maintaining my sense of humour or my sanity - and I know what i did when I was a teenager!!! I think I have always acted like if i treat my children reasonably they will do the same - but it doesn't work like that. Heaven knows how it'll turn out - I live in hope! Keep going.... love Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 > > I am leaving his upbringing to DH for a few days, he seems to be > > better at it! > > This I can empathise with Ruthie. I haven't replied before - partly because > of little time and mostly because it is too close to home. > > Teenagerdom is no joke I reckon - not when you're the parent anyway. We have > two girls (13 and nearly 12). They are now further apart than at any time > since they were born. > > The 13 year old is on report for the fourth time this term. > > We have currently banned pocket money, telephone, computer and having > friends round I always felt that pocket money was unconditional. DH is holding on to that mobile for dear life at the moment, as the last " leverage " he has! Now, on top of Yeshaya's moods, have Tammy's righteous indignation at having her " rollicking " as his older sister spurned, and the phone hung up on her. She has a LOT to learn about teenagers; the first thing she said to Yeshaya on the phone was to order him to come round to her THIS MINUTE! Something you can do with kids of the ages of her own,( youngest 18 months, oldest is 10) but not with a stubborn teenager. She now feels she is owed an apologetic visit. In your dreams Tammy! Right now if she invites us for a Sabbath meal any time soon, he ain't going! Ruthie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 > > I am leaving his upbringing to DH for a few days, he seems to be > > better at it! > > This I can empathise with Ruthie. I haven't replied before - partly because > of little time and mostly because it is too close to home. > > Teenagerdom is no joke I reckon - not when you're the parent anyway. We have > two girls (13 and nearly 12). They are now further apart than at any time > since they were born. > > The 13 year old is on report for the fourth time this term. > > We have currently banned pocket money, telephone, computer and having > friends round I always felt that pocket money was unconditional. DH is holding on to that mobile for dear life at the moment, as the last " leverage " he has! Now, on top of Yeshaya's moods, have Tammy's righteous indignation at having her " rollicking " as his older sister spurned, and the phone hung up on her. She has a LOT to learn about teenagers; the first thing she said to Yeshaya on the phone was to order him to come round to her THIS MINUTE! Something you can do with kids of the ages of her own,( youngest 18 months, oldest is 10) but not with a stubborn teenager. She now feels she is owed an apologetic visit. In your dreams Tammy! Right now if she invites us for a Sabbath meal any time soon, he ain't going! Ruthie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 I think you may underestimate your older DS who has left home, do you think he might tell Yeshaya 'how it is' when you have left home, make him realise what a big step it is , etc? all the fending for himself etc. Anyway good that he has some family he can turn to, to let off a bit of steam .. jm2p, probably a load of tosh, cos I haven`t BTDT yet! (only another 3 years to official teenagerdom.) Best wishes Barbara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 > > We have currently banned pocket money, telephone, computer and > having > > friends round > > I always felt that pocket money was unconditional. DH is holding on > to that mobile for dear life at the moment, as the last " leverage " he > has! Mmmmm, well last weekend she went shopping with her friend with pocket money and £20 of mine to buy trousers. She spent the £20 I gave her to buy a pair of trousers on all sorts of other things, including the cinema, but no trousers. So in a way this is payback! I am happy to withdraw pocket money, but I won't tell them what they can/can't spend *their* money on. I think I can tell them if I give them *my* money. Hope this makes sense Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 > > We have currently banned pocket money, telephone, computer and > having > > friends round > > I always felt that pocket money was unconditional. DH is holding on > to that mobile for dear life at the moment, as the last " leverage " he > has! Mmmmm, well last weekend she went shopping with her friend with pocket money and £20 of mine to buy trousers. She spent the £20 I gave her to buy a pair of trousers on all sorts of other things, including the cinema, but no trousers. So in a way this is payback! I am happy to withdraw pocket money, but I won't tell them what they can/can't spend *their* money on. I think I can tell them if I give them *my* money. Hope this makes sense Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 We have currently banned pocket money, telephone, computer and > having > > friends round I think it is *much* easier to ban things like having friends round, telephone etc with a 13 yr old than a 16 yr old. You try stopping him having his friends round or going to them on his own. The mother of a good friend of his (stupidly IMO) banned her son from seeing Yeshaya for no other reason other than that her younger son was refused entry into the school of which DH is chairman of the Governors. DH doesn't have the last say in intake; and in fact had tried persuading the intake committee to accept the kid, but the class was full, there was nothing they could do. What I am getting at, is that her ban was meaningless; the two boys met outside the home, and in our home, and got together as often as they liked. Once they can come and go from the house as they please, it is *very* difficult to control them any more. His mobile was the last bastion, and from what I am hearing from downstairs, DH has already given in " on condition that.... " (difficult to enforce once the kid has the phone back). But I think Yeshaya will always be worried that DH will confiscate the phone again, so maybe it will work, these conditions of his! Meanwhile Azariah is gloating, crowing and smirking and " being proved right " about how horrible we are as parents really. *sigh*. I'm off for a nap, I only had 3 hours last night. My book reading had a really good trailer on LBC last night but with all the howdydo, I missed the first one just after 1 a.m., called the radio station and begged them to put it on again, and they did! Just before 2. a.m. I didn't manage to tape it off the radio tho, darn those complicated high tech stereos. Tavya chose this one and she's the only person who knows how to operate it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 > > > We have currently banned pocket money, telephone, computer and > > having > > > friends round > > > > I always felt that pocket money was unconditional. DH is holding on > > to that mobile for dear life at the moment, as the last " leverage " he > > has! > > Mmmmm, well last weekend she went shopping with her friend with pocket money > and £20 of mine to buy trousers. She spent the £20 I gave her to buy a pair > of trousers on all sorts of other things, including the cinema, but no > trousers. So in a way this is payback! > > I am happy to withdraw pocket money, but I won't tell them what they > can/can't spend *their* money on. I think I can tell them if I give them > *my* money. Hope this makes sense > Sue Oh yes. If I give my kids money to buy specific things with, whether it's clothes or even a slice of pizza, and they don't buy it, they have to give the money right back and I want every penny accounted for! But their pocket money is theirs no matter what. Ruthie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 > > > We have currently banned pocket money, telephone, computer and > > having > > > friends round > > > > I always felt that pocket money was unconditional. DH is holding on > > to that mobile for dear life at the moment, as the last " leverage " he > > has! > > Mmmmm, well last weekend she went shopping with her friend with pocket money > and £20 of mine to buy trousers. She spent the £20 I gave her to buy a pair > of trousers on all sorts of other things, including the cinema, but no > trousers. So in a way this is payback! > > I am happy to withdraw pocket money, but I won't tell them what they > can/can't spend *their* money on. I think I can tell them if I give them > *my* money. Hope this makes sense > Sue Oh yes. If I give my kids money to buy specific things with, whether it's clothes or even a slice of pizza, and they don't buy it, they have to give the money right back and I want every penny accounted for! But their pocket money is theirs no matter what. Ruthie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Ruthie, my comments would only echo Lynda's and many others, I'm currently reading my emails ( for the first time since sat lunchtime - it's 7.15 pm sun) while bf my baby on my knee, fending off questions from the others, I have 10 mins before bedtime for DS2 and 3, I got both your posts in the same digest, it does sound awful and you have my sympathies but I don't have any suggestions. At the moment I don't even have time to send any posts of my own (eg helpful dad over night out, pleasures of eating homegrown veg, DS1 getting stuck up a tree etc), all intended posts but shelved due to lack of time. Curran Mum to 4 boys. Co-Chair, MVA, Valley cushion agent, homebirth support and booking clerk Selby Rural NCT Region 7 Secretary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Ruthie, my comments would only echo Lynda's and many others, I'm currently reading my emails ( for the first time since sat lunchtime - it's 7.15 pm sun) while bf my baby on my knee, fending off questions from the others, I have 10 mins before bedtime for DS2 and 3, I got both your posts in the same digest, it does sound awful and you have my sympathies but I don't have any suggestions. At the moment I don't even have time to send any posts of my own (eg helpful dad over night out, pleasures of eating homegrown veg, DS1 getting stuck up a tree etc), all intended posts but shelved due to lack of time. Curran Mum to 4 boys. Co-Chair, MVA, Valley cushion agent, homebirth support and booking clerk Selby Rural NCT Region 7 Secretary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Don't worry about suggestions, , I think you have to be *in it* to really empathise, and that means " in it " in a Jewish sense too,like my editor Mimi, whose email I pasted today. I think all I wanted was a bit of sympathy and cyberhugs! Ruthie > Ruthie, my comments would only echo Lynda's and many others, I'm > currently reading my emails ( for the first time since sat lunchtime - > it's 7.15 pm sun) while bf my baby on my knee, fending off questions > from the others, I have 10 mins before bedtime for DS2 and 3, I got both > your posts in the same digest, it does sound awful and you have my > sympathies but I don't have any suggestions. At the moment I don't even > have time to send any posts of my own (eg helpful dad over night out, > pleasures of eating homegrown veg, DS1 getting stuck up a tree etc), all > intended posts but shelved due to lack of time. > Curran > Mum to 4 boys. Co-Chair, MVA, Valley cushion agent, homebirth support > and booking clerk Selby Rural NCT > Region 7 Secretary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Replied off list. Caro > I get the feeling that whenever I write a posting bout Yeshaya, > and I am not talking about last night's one in particular, but in > general, everyone ignores it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Ruthie, I have only just got through this weekends emails and would like to echo what most others have replied ie: lack of knowing what to say and time to give in depth reply.I know it sounds like a bit of a cop out but I do feel for you every post I read and know I could well have the same sort of thing to look forward to in years to come. sending best wishes and hugs Sonjia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 > Ruthie, > I have only just got through this weekends emails and would like to > echo what most others have replied ie: lack of knowing what to say > and time to give in depth reply.I know it sounds like a bit of a cop > out but I do feel for you every post I read and know I could well > have the same sort of thing to look forward to in years to come. > sending best wishes and hugs > > Sonjia Thank you Sonjia and everyone, and I feel a bit silly and needy now having made a fuss. Apologies. But this morning when I wrote those words I had had 3 hrs sleep and most of that was very disturbed due to stress. There's a German saying, which, translated, means : " little children, little worries, big children, big worries. " It loses a little in the translation but you get the idea. Just thinking about DD2 Tammy, and how she expected Yeshaya to go racing round to hers when she ordered him to, over the phone, made me realise how huge the experience gap is between those who have yet to cope with teenagers and those who already have. She was overlaying her expectations of her own children, onto one twice their age, and wondering why it wasn't working. Teenagers turn everything you have come to know about your child, on its head. However demanding the little ones are, you are in control ultimately. Teenagers refuse to be controlled. That is the real crux of it. Ruthie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Ruthie we're all a bit needy sometimes(I may well be very soon)but funnily enough as I was reading your initial post before*puzzled* I was thinking I wish I could come up with something useful to say. LOL one day maybe I will!! Sonjia xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 -and Ruthie - isn't this the wonderful thing about having two parents, that just when one of them can't manage, the other one can take over - bet you are being thankful for DH! Perhaps this is one of those situations which are handled better by the authority and same-sexness of the father figure...there will be other issues where your touch is more appropriate... Caro He listened *far* > more willingly to DH last night at 3 a.m. being very calm and rational > but just laying down some rules and expectations. > > I am leaving his upbringing to DH for a few days, he seems to be > better at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2001 Report Share Posted July 2, 2001 Hi Ruthie Just caught up with my mail - sorry to hear you're going thru another teenage wrangle! Just keep thinking *it's his hormones* and you may feel better, it's a bit like when you visualise someone naked it's hard to take it personally then Helps me anyway!! Problem with teenagers and advise about how to deal with them is that they are all so different and ultimately you and your DH are the only ones who *know* how to reason with Yeshaya - you are the only ones who have to live with him after all )) He just makes you *feel* that you don't know what you are doing - it's all part of a teenage plot to undermine the parents )))) I get really annoyed when my relatives insist on telling me off for being 'hard' on , they only see the nice side of him they don't see the very normal but very annoying stroppy '' (aka Harry Enfield side), he knows this and plays on it. One thing I was wondering is why are you paying for his mobile? A has a mobile and has to use his pocket money and any other money that he manages to extort from us or his grand-parents for his mobile - it isn't an essential after all. Then again where money is concerned we have one major advantage on the teenage issues - he knows we really don't have any! - he doesn't resent this and does understand that we can't just give him hand-outs. He chooses not to get a Saturday job and that's fine as long as he accepts he will be skint and he does - so no argument there. Jenni (& Gethyn) nearly 17yrs (04.07.1984) Mari 3yrs (H/B) Babi Bach exp.09/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2001 Report Share Posted July 2, 2001 Hi Ruthie Just caught up with my mail - sorry to hear you're going thru another teenage wrangle! Just keep thinking *it's his hormones* and you may feel better, it's a bit like when you visualise someone naked it's hard to take it personally then Helps me anyway!! Problem with teenagers and advise about how to deal with them is that they are all so different and ultimately you and your DH are the only ones who *know* how to reason with Yeshaya - you are the only ones who have to live with him after all )) He just makes you *feel* that you don't know what you are doing - it's all part of a teenage plot to undermine the parents )))) I get really annoyed when my relatives insist on telling me off for being 'hard' on , they only see the nice side of him they don't see the very normal but very annoying stroppy '' (aka Harry Enfield side), he knows this and plays on it. One thing I was wondering is why are you paying for his mobile? A has a mobile and has to use his pocket money and any other money that he manages to extort from us or his grand-parents for his mobile - it isn't an essential after all. Then again where money is concerned we have one major advantage on the teenage issues - he knows we really don't have any! - he doesn't resent this and does understand that we can't just give him hand-outs. He chooses not to get a Saturday job and that's fine as long as he accepts he will be skint and he does - so no argument there. Jenni (& Gethyn) nearly 17yrs (04.07.1984) Mari 3yrs (H/B) Babi Bach exp.09/2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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