Guest guest Posted March 20, 2005 Report Share Posted March 20, 2005 RH, I am sorry to hear that you had to watch your Mother starve to death. That must have been very heart wrenching for you. This case must really hit home for you. And they don't even shoot dogs any longer, they give them an injection and they peacefully fall asleep. Starving isn't peaceful by any means. Ann-Marie Re: opinion-OT I wanted to also offer that she's a Catholic, and I don't think they advocate starving to death. This is a complicated case, and I am partial to the situation because my mom starved to death over months (partially due to my dad's decisions). I hope no one has to look into the eyes of a loved one who is starving to death like I have had to, at least they'd shoot a dog (and they outlawed partial birth abortions). I hope the government involvement at least opens up some dialog about how people can be allowed to die (including assisted suicide). The point of the government involvement should not be " save Terri " or not, it should be to realize these issues exist, and not ignore that they are issues in a society such as ours. How can you make a judgement about whether she is " living " or not, even if you did know her personally? Should we stop feeding Alzheimer's patients if they forget to eat? ((NOTE: This post may be a result of some wine and the fact I took a bioethics course, a topic which prides itself on arguing both sides and never getting a satisfactory answer...) Take care, RH P.S. Get a living will! > > > > > Alice, > > > I have very strong opinions about the Terri Schiavo case and will try > > > to temper them so not to offend anyone. This is NO ONE'S business > > > except her family's and that includes her parents as well as her > > > husband. Politicians are catching hell right now about SS changes so > > > bringing Terri to the media forefront gets some of the heat off them. > > > All of this would never have happened if she had a living will! That > > > is HER fault and a terrible mistake, however, her ongoing situation > > > has lead countless families to FINALLY open up and discuss the what > > > ifs of life and death. So really her lingering has served a great > > > purpose. > > > > > > Now, I totally distrust her husband, he has a common law wife and has > > > fathered two children by her...all will agree that as a young man he > > > deserved a life so he should have given guardianship to her parents > > > years ago and divorced Terri but all this over his finally remembering > > > she didn't want life support...come on why did he not remember that in > > > the ER? > > > > > > I have until the past week seen this through her parent's eyes and > > > how they will do anything for her...but all this brought our family to > > > discuss the situation. My 18yo son asked me if I would fight to keep > > > him alive if he was in Terri's condition....after thinking I said no, > > > because the qualities and gifts of her life have been gone for years > > > and now it is not really about love of Terri but a fight over who can > > > control the most. I love my son enough to let him pass if nothing can > > > be done to let him live. Terri is not living, she is existing and I > > > have enough love to let my children go...and I asked they do the same > > > for me. > > > > > > Debra > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2005 Report Share Posted March 20, 2005 RH, I am sorry to hear that you had to watch your Mother starve to death. That must have been very heart wrenching for you. This case must really hit home for you. And they don't even shoot dogs any longer, they give them an injection and they peacefully fall asleep. Starving isn't peaceful by any means. Ann-Marie Re: opinion-OT I wanted to also offer that she's a Catholic, and I don't think they advocate starving to death. This is a complicated case, and I am partial to the situation because my mom starved to death over months (partially due to my dad's decisions). I hope no one has to look into the eyes of a loved one who is starving to death like I have had to, at least they'd shoot a dog (and they outlawed partial birth abortions). I hope the government involvement at least opens up some dialog about how people can be allowed to die (including assisted suicide). The point of the government involvement should not be " save Terri " or not, it should be to realize these issues exist, and not ignore that they are issues in a society such as ours. How can you make a judgement about whether she is " living " or not, even if you did know her personally? Should we stop feeding Alzheimer's patients if they forget to eat? ((NOTE: This post may be a result of some wine and the fact I took a bioethics course, a topic which prides itself on arguing both sides and never getting a satisfactory answer...) Take care, RH P.S. Get a living will! > > > > > Alice, > > > I have very strong opinions about the Terri Schiavo case and will try > > > to temper them so not to offend anyone. This is NO ONE'S business > > > except her family's and that includes her parents as well as her > > > husband. Politicians are catching hell right now about SS changes so > > > bringing Terri to the media forefront gets some of the heat off them. > > > All of this would never have happened if she had a living will! That > > > is HER fault and a terrible mistake, however, her ongoing situation > > > has lead countless families to FINALLY open up and discuss the what > > > ifs of life and death. So really her lingering has served a great > > > purpose. > > > > > > Now, I totally distrust her husband, he has a common law wife and has > > > fathered two children by her...all will agree that as a young man he > > > deserved a life so he should have given guardianship to her parents > > > years ago and divorced Terri but all this over his finally remembering > > > she didn't want life support...come on why did he not remember that in > > > the ER? > > > > > > I have until the past week seen this through her parent's eyes and > > > how they will do anything for her...but all this brought our family to > > > discuss the situation. My 18yo son asked me if I would fight to keep > > > him alive if he was in Terri's condition....after thinking I said no, > > > because the qualities and gifts of her life have been gone for years > > > and now it is not really about love of Terri but a fight over who can > > > control the most. I love my son enough to let him pass if nothing can > > > be done to let him live. Terri is not living, she is existing and I > > > have enough love to let my children go...and I asked they do the same > > > for me. > > > > > > Debra > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 In reading today's earlier digest I have more and more thoughts about Terri Schiavo... RH if you had to witness your mother's death as slow and agonizing through withholding feeding, then she was much more alert than Terri and for your suffering I am truly sorry. I have worked at two faith based hospitals and one public one and all the patients I dealt with were kept calm but alert if their condition warranted it. Everyone was able to say goodbyes to families if they wanted and only one man asked that he sleep. Ativan under the tongue,dissolves with two drops of water, there is no need to swallow and no fear of choking but there is calm and peace while still remaining alert. Children who are dying of cancer will point blank ask if it is going to hurt to die...compared to what they have already been through you can honestly say no, death is peaceful BUT if the cancer hurts more they are reassured that pain meds are ready. The greatest fear of patients and their families is pain, avoiding unnecessary suffering, once everyone agrees that there will be comfort, that becomes the main focus. There are many ways Terri can attain comfort if only the family would stop fighting. NONE of them are considered active euthanasia. The MO members need to really look and think about the issues R/T this case. Going before Congress is a horrible precedent...getting government involved where a panel decides someone's health fate is worse than horrible. All of you realize the nightmare of insurance...do we need another governmental body telling us what our end result should be...they already give many of us a cap on coverage or exclusion of conditions!!! We need to be very cautious with this as it sets up the rest of us for a possible downfall. What if it is voted that resuscitation is allowed only once and life support of only 21 days? What if it takes 22 days for your insurance to approve an internal defibrillator? This has all come about because " life support " can now keep someone going indefinitely...way past what early doctors ever dreamed possible. The only persons involved in your health care decisions should be you, your doctor and your family and all decisions should be documented. Debra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 Thanks for your kind thoughts. Yesterday would have been my mom's 75th birthday. My 8 year old son did the Jump Rope for Heart in her honor last week. So, in summary: 1) Get a living will. 2) PLEASE go to the doctor if you have any abnormal bleeding. My mom was recommended to get a hysterectomy 10 years before her diagnosis of metastasized cancer, and she couldn't deal with the psychological aspects of " not being a woman anymore " . Now I am the reverse way about doctors, I've already had a colonoscopy (did it at 30) due to abnormal bleeding (TMI, it was a bad internal hemorrhoid, but better to check). Better to be a " hypochondriac " than the alternative. On a possibly mito-related note, I got sick within a month's after my mom's death, so I don't know if it was the stress of that in itself, or that I was driving over 100 miles everyday and spending little time with my husband for months. Take care, RH > > > > > > > Alice, > > > > I have very strong opinions about the Terri Schiavo case and > will try > > > > to temper them so not to offend anyone. This is NO ONE'S > business > > > > except her family's and that includes her parents as well as > her > > > > husband. Politicians are catching hell right now about SS > changes so > > > > bringing Terri to the media forefront gets some of the heat off > them. > > > > All of this would never have happened if she had a living > will! That > > > > is HER fault and a terrible mistake, however, her ongoing > situation > > > > has lead countless families to FINALLY open up and discuss the > what > > > > ifs of life and death. So really her lingering has served a > great > > > > purpose. > > > > > > > > Now, I totally distrust her husband, he has a common law wife > and has > > > > fathered two children by her...all will agree that as a young > man he > > > > deserved a life so he should have given guardianship to her > parents > > > > years ago and divorced Terri but all this over his finally > remembering > > > > she didn't want life support...come on why did he not remember > that in > > > > the ER? > > > > > > > > I have until the past week seen this through her parent's eyes > and > > > > how they will do anything for her...but all this brought our > family to > > > > discuss the situation. My 18yo son asked me if I would fight > to keep > > > > him alive if he was in Terri's condition....after thinking I > said no, > > > > because the qualities and gifts of her life have been gone for > years > > > > and now it is not really about love of Terri but a fight over > who can > > > > control the most. I love my son enough to let him pass if > nothing can > > > > be done to let him live. Terri is not living, she is existing > and I > > > > have enough love to let my children go...and I asked they do > the same > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > Debra > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 Debra I agree completely. After my mother had had a stroke and was basically in a coma and a glucose IV was tried, it was comfortable to follow her wishes to go peacefully. I was the one who told the doctor that it was okay to remove the IV and I was able to do so without a lot of soul searching. It still wasn't easy, but it was her wish and I was at peace knowing that. Having our wishes known ahead of time is very important. I think it becomes more difficult for those with chronic diseases. It can't be a blanket " no artificial measures " as we can be functioning happy knowledgable people while needing a feeding tubee or oxygen. I have this all spelled out in my lmedical power of attorney. laurie > > In reading today's earlier digest I have more and more thoughts about Terri > Schiavo... > > RH if you had to witness your mother's death as slow and agonizing through > withholding feeding, then she was much more alert than Terri and for your > suffering I am truly sorry. I have worked at two faith based hospitals and > one public one and all the patients I dealt with were kept calm but alert if > their condition warranted it. Everyone was able to say goodbyes to families > if they wanted and only one man asked that he sleep. Ativan under the > tongue,dissolves with two drops of water, there is no need to swallow and no > fear of choking but there is calm and peace while still remaining alert. > > Children who are dying of cancer will point blank ask if it is going to hurt > to die...compared to what they have already been through you can honestly > say no, death is peaceful BUT if the cancer hurts more they are reassured > that pain meds are ready. The greatest fear of patients and their families > is pain, avoiding unnecessary suffering, once everyone agrees that there > will be comfort, that becomes the main focus. There are many ways Terri can > attain comfort if only the family would stop fighting. NONE of them are > considered active euthanasia. > > The MO members need to really look and think about the issues R/T this case. > Going before Congress is a horrible precedent...getting government involved > where a panel decides someone's health fate is worse than horrible. All of > you realize the nightmare of insurance...do we need another governmental > body telling us what our end result should be...they already give many of us > a cap on coverage or exclusion of conditions!!! We need to be very cautious > with this as it sets up the rest of us for a possible downfall. What if it > is voted that resuscitation is allowed only once and life support of only 21 > days? What if it takes 22 days for your insurance to approve an internal > defibrillator? > > This has all come about because " life support " can now keep someone going > indefinitely...way past what early doctors ever dreamed possible. The only > persons involved in your health care decisions should be you, your doctor > and your family and all decisions should be documented. > > Debra > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 My mom was at home, and had no IV or medications. I believe my dad thought hospice care wasn't an option, a nurse came in every day to check her pulse, but no meds. Perhaps they thought she'd only last a week or less, but... Are you implying the starvation process is short and painless? Perhaps my mom was the exception, but it was months of no food, and only water to wet her lips. I find it interesting that many are like " the government shouldn't be involved " when the government's been involved for a while, through the courts. The question isn't " how much care is reasonable " or " allowed " , the question is point blank " does an unfaithful spouse have guardianship of his wife for matters of life and death? " . Take care, RH > In reading today's earlier digest I have more and more thoughts about Terri Schiavo... > > RH if you had to witness your mother's death as slow and agonizing through withholding feeding, then she was much more alert than Terri and for your suffering I am truly sorry. I have worked at two faith based hospitals and one public one and all the patients I dealt with were kept calm but alert if their condition warranted it. Everyone was able to say goodbyes to families if they wanted and only one man asked that he sleep. Ativan under the tongue,dissolves with two drops of water, there is no need to swallow and no fear of choking but there is calm and peace while still remaining alert. > > Children who are dying of cancer will point blank ask if it is going to hurt to die...compared to what they have already been through you can honestly say no, death is peaceful BUT if the cancer hurts more they are reassured that pain meds are ready. The greatest fear of patients and their families is pain, avoiding unnecessary suffering, once everyone agrees that there will be comfort, that becomes the main focus. There are many ways Terri can attain comfort if only the family would stop fighting. NONE of them are considered active euthanasia. > > The MO members need to really look and think about the issues R/T this case. Going before Congress is a horrible precedent...getting government involved where a panel decides someone's health fate is worse than horrible. All of you realize the nightmare of insurance...do we need another governmental body telling us what our end result should be...they already give many of us a cap on coverage or exclusion of conditions!!! We need to be very cautious with this as it sets up the rest of us for a possible downfall. What if it is voted that resuscitation is allowed only once and life support of only 21 days? What if it takes 22 days for your insurance to approve an internal defibrillator? > > This has all come about because " life support " can now keep someone going indefinitely...way past what early doctors ever dreamed possible. The only persons involved in your health care decisions should be you, your doctor and your family and all decisions should be documented. > > Debra > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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