Guest guest Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 Hi Chris- Oh! You're going to make me think. > You said: > > >>>>When everything is working properly, the brain converts T4 to T3 > at a higher rate than other peripheral tissues because it requires > more energy.<<<< > > Then if the brain is working overtime (such as when under a lot of > stress, being irate, excessively worried about something) could more > conversion take place due to this brain overactivity, creating an > excess of T3 from conversion of T4? I don't know. All this stuff (except about the brain requiring more energy than other organs and tissues) is theoretical. But if it is true that worry and stress cause excess conversion, it seems that since both T4 and T3 can cross the blood-brain barrier this would be able to make too much for the rest of the body too. I'll have to look up the specifics of T3 toxicosis (or Elaine, jump in if you have the info easily available). > Also: > > >>>>I'm thinking that if we've been left hypothyroid for a long time, > we might end up with a reduced number of cell receptors for thyroid > hormone.<<<< > > Could the reverse be possible, such as being predominantly hypER for > a long time, we might end up with an increased number of receptors > for thyroid hormone, creating a higher T3 problem? Maybe but I don't know if receptors are decreased in hypothyroidism. I brought it up because they don't know that it doesn't happen. Another thought is that receptors aren't increased past the point that's detrimental but since cells are metabolizing faster because of the excess T3, the more T3 you have available the more you metabolize. So those receptors become available much more quickly than they ordinarily would. And since they have so much T3, they use it. > > And one more: > > What is your take on the fact that T3 requires one less iodine atom > than T4, and the theory that an insufficient iodine intake may create > more T3 than T4? In other words, the body will naturally conserve > the iodine it DOES get by producing (or converting from the available > T4) the hormone that requires less iodine to produce--also being the > more active and readily usable thyroid hormone (T3). Just to take it > a step further, if someone who is not converting enough T4 (synthroid > or natural) to T3, could an iodine reduction help increase T3 in > accordance with this theory? This one I didn't know about. As far as I knew, the thyroid makes T3 in a 1:10 ratio to T4 (and T4 is then converted to T3 in peripheral tissues). That it could differ in areas where iodine isn't sufficient wouldn't surprise me. Lots of things have happened in areas that are selected for. Like diabetes coincides with areas where there's famine. Diabetics survive starvation better than people without it. Sickle cell anemia has developed in areas with malaria. The malaria parasite can't invade RBCs that are sickled so the death rate from malaria is much lower in patients with sickle cell anemia than it is for patients with normally shaped RBCs. I haven't kept up on literature like I was before because I spent most of the last couple of years learning about PCOS and autoimmune diseases in relation to pregnancy. I'd say maybe after these babies are 3 or so, I'll be able to keep up. Until then, I'll just keep popping out about whether something makes sense or not using what I already know about biology (hope things don't change too much til I'm ready). Take care, dx & RAI 1987 (at age 24) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 Hi Chris- Oh! You're going to make me think. > You said: > > >>>>When everything is working properly, the brain converts T4 to T3 > at a higher rate than other peripheral tissues because it requires > more energy.<<<< > > Then if the brain is working overtime (such as when under a lot of > stress, being irate, excessively worried about something) could more > conversion take place due to this brain overactivity, creating an > excess of T3 from conversion of T4? I don't know. All this stuff (except about the brain requiring more energy than other organs and tissues) is theoretical. But if it is true that worry and stress cause excess conversion, it seems that since both T4 and T3 can cross the blood-brain barrier this would be able to make too much for the rest of the body too. I'll have to look up the specifics of T3 toxicosis (or Elaine, jump in if you have the info easily available). > Also: > > >>>>I'm thinking that if we've been left hypothyroid for a long time, > we might end up with a reduced number of cell receptors for thyroid > hormone.<<<< > > Could the reverse be possible, such as being predominantly hypER for > a long time, we might end up with an increased number of receptors > for thyroid hormone, creating a higher T3 problem? Maybe but I don't know if receptors are decreased in hypothyroidism. I brought it up because they don't know that it doesn't happen. Another thought is that receptors aren't increased past the point that's detrimental but since cells are metabolizing faster because of the excess T3, the more T3 you have available the more you metabolize. So those receptors become available much more quickly than they ordinarily would. And since they have so much T3, they use it. > > And one more: > > What is your take on the fact that T3 requires one less iodine atom > than T4, and the theory that an insufficient iodine intake may create > more T3 than T4? In other words, the body will naturally conserve > the iodine it DOES get by producing (or converting from the available > T4) the hormone that requires less iodine to produce--also being the > more active and readily usable thyroid hormone (T3). Just to take it > a step further, if someone who is not converting enough T4 (synthroid > or natural) to T3, could an iodine reduction help increase T3 in > accordance with this theory? This one I didn't know about. As far as I knew, the thyroid makes T3 in a 1:10 ratio to T4 (and T4 is then converted to T3 in peripheral tissues). That it could differ in areas where iodine isn't sufficient wouldn't surprise me. Lots of things have happened in areas that are selected for. Like diabetes coincides with areas where there's famine. Diabetics survive starvation better than people without it. Sickle cell anemia has developed in areas with malaria. The malaria parasite can't invade RBCs that are sickled so the death rate from malaria is much lower in patients with sickle cell anemia than it is for patients with normally shaped RBCs. I haven't kept up on literature like I was before because I spent most of the last couple of years learning about PCOS and autoimmune diseases in relation to pregnancy. I'd say maybe after these babies are 3 or so, I'll be able to keep up. Until then, I'll just keep popping out about whether something makes sense or not using what I already know about biology (hope things don't change too much til I'm ready). Take care, dx & RAI 1987 (at age 24) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 Hi Chris- Oh! You're going to make me think. > You said: > > >>>>When everything is working properly, the brain converts T4 to T3 > at a higher rate than other peripheral tissues because it requires > more energy.<<<< > > Then if the brain is working overtime (such as when under a lot of > stress, being irate, excessively worried about something) could more > conversion take place due to this brain overactivity, creating an > excess of T3 from conversion of T4? I don't know. All this stuff (except about the brain requiring more energy than other organs and tissues) is theoretical. But if it is true that worry and stress cause excess conversion, it seems that since both T4 and T3 can cross the blood-brain barrier this would be able to make too much for the rest of the body too. I'll have to look up the specifics of T3 toxicosis (or Elaine, jump in if you have the info easily available). > Also: > > >>>>I'm thinking that if we've been left hypothyroid for a long time, > we might end up with a reduced number of cell receptors for thyroid > hormone.<<<< > > Could the reverse be possible, such as being predominantly hypER for > a long time, we might end up with an increased number of receptors > for thyroid hormone, creating a higher T3 problem? Maybe but I don't know if receptors are decreased in hypothyroidism. I brought it up because they don't know that it doesn't happen. Another thought is that receptors aren't increased past the point that's detrimental but since cells are metabolizing faster because of the excess T3, the more T3 you have available the more you metabolize. So those receptors become available much more quickly than they ordinarily would. And since they have so much T3, they use it. > > And one more: > > What is your take on the fact that T3 requires one less iodine atom > than T4, and the theory that an insufficient iodine intake may create > more T3 than T4? In other words, the body will naturally conserve > the iodine it DOES get by producing (or converting from the available > T4) the hormone that requires less iodine to produce--also being the > more active and readily usable thyroid hormone (T3). Just to take it > a step further, if someone who is not converting enough T4 (synthroid > or natural) to T3, could an iodine reduction help increase T3 in > accordance with this theory? This one I didn't know about. As far as I knew, the thyroid makes T3 in a 1:10 ratio to T4 (and T4 is then converted to T3 in peripheral tissues). That it could differ in areas where iodine isn't sufficient wouldn't surprise me. Lots of things have happened in areas that are selected for. Like diabetes coincides with areas where there's famine. Diabetics survive starvation better than people without it. Sickle cell anemia has developed in areas with malaria. The malaria parasite can't invade RBCs that are sickled so the death rate from malaria is much lower in patients with sickle cell anemia than it is for patients with normally shaped RBCs. I haven't kept up on literature like I was before because I spent most of the last couple of years learning about PCOS and autoimmune diseases in relation to pregnancy. I'd say maybe after these babies are 3 or so, I'll be able to keep up. Until then, I'll just keep popping out about whether something makes sense or not using what I already know about biology (hope things don't change too much til I'm ready). Take care, dx & RAI 1987 (at age 24) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 Hi Laurel- I have no idea what's changed but I'm now converting more T4 to T3 than I need (before I wasn't coming close to what I needed) so I do think this can change for us. I wonder about the autoantibody thing for thyroid hormone receptors too. If you can make antibodies for anything, I don't see why some of us with autoimmune disease aren't making them for these receptors too. And maybe that affects conversion rates somehow. My immune system is suppressed because of pregnancy plus I'm taking steroids to make sure I don't have another immune reaction to the placentas' chorionic villi. I'm also converting like crazy where I wasn't before (but that could also be affected by pregnancy hormones too-they don't know). It could be so many things. Take care, dx & RAI 1987 (at age 24) > Hey and and all, > > Wow. You guys never cease to amaze! > > If we are preprogrammed to reduce the number of receptors after a period of > hypo or increase them after a period of hyper, can this situation be > reversed by some mechanism when we have an imbalance? And, since I'm pretty > sure that the autoantibodies are making this situation worse or possibly > causing it, I'm wondering if the mechanism for the various stuff we are > taking for a decrease in these is what is returning some of us to a > reasonable homeostasis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 Dear - Thanks so much for your help with this. Of course the most important thing for you is to concentrate on those babies and keeping yourself healthy. I was just tossing some stuff around with you because of your extensive knowledge of biology. I think it's great that you've dug in and learned so much about this. I know that the general consensus is that T3 affects the brain more than the T4....() but I find that since I'm such a weirdo, the T4 seems to have more of an effect on my own brain..... what's left of it, that is. LOL! In other words, my T3 can be on the upper end of normal, but if my T4 is low, my brain is sluggish. Maybe for some, more conversion takes place in one area than in another. You know that even the well-educated, highly-respected researchers have to start somewhere, and guessing plays a big part in the development of some of the greatest discoveries. Like Yanni, the very talented musician and composer, once said--to paraphrase--every great discovery this world has ever seen, started with just one little idea in one person's mind. Anyway, I thank you for your feedback. The more we dissect this, the closer we come to figuring it out. If I had more educational background re the workings of the human body, such as you and Elaine have, it would be a little easier for me to put the pieces together. I'm always grateful for your knowledgeable input. Warmest wishes, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 Hi Chris- Don't worry about throwing things out at me. I was just warning you that what you'll get is off the top-of-my-head stuff rather than well-researched thyroid knowledge. I used to make sure that all bases were covered before I answered anything but now I just can't keep up. I feel kinda guilty because I'm not keeping up on the recent (less than 6 mos old) literature. I, too, think there might be roles for T4 independent from T3. For example, they were absolutely positive that I'd end up with preeclampsia since I started out this pregnancy with high blood pressure. My BP kept rising for the 1st 5 months, then abruptly dropped. This coincided with borderline low T4 levels. I had my thyroid levels tested yesterday (haven't got them back yet) and it'll be interesting where they are now. Anyhow, we're on the right track. Take care, dx & RAI 1987 (at age 24) > Dear - > > Thanks so much for your help with this. Of course the most important > thing for you is to concentrate on those babies and keeping yourself > healthy. I was just tossing some stuff around with you because of > your extensive knowledge of biology. I think it's great that you've > dug in and learned so much about this. > > I know that the general consensus is that T3 affects the brain more > than the T4....() but I find that since I'm such a weirdo, the T4 > seems to have more of an effect on my own brain..... what's left of > it, that is. LOL! In other words, my T3 can be on the upper end of > normal, but if my T4 is low, my brain is sluggish. Maybe for some, > more conversion takes place in one area than in another. > > You know that even the well-educated, highly-respected researchers > have to start somewhere, and guessing plays a big part in the > development of some of the greatest discoveries. Like Yanni, the > very talented musician and composer, once said--to paraphrase--every > great discovery this world has ever seen, started with just one > little idea in one person's mind. > > Anyway, I thank you for your feedback. The more we dissect this, the > closer we come to figuring it out. If I had more educational > background re the workings of the human body, such as you and Elaine > have, it would be a little easier for me to put the pieces together. > I'm always grateful for your knowledgeable input. > > Warmest wishes, > Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 Hey - Don't worry. I value the " top-of-my-head stuff " a lot! Half the time, that's what I'm running on, too. You have 2 very precious and wonderful reasons to hold off on catching up with this confusing subject. Take your time and concentrate on Arthur and Eleanor! We can muddle through. Best Wishes, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 , What you say makes sense. I'm sure that you are on the right track, that the steroids plus the natural immunosupressant effects of pregnancy are helping your conversion. The big questions have to do with the why and how not the what. I've been thinking about his all day. I had two miscarriages before my beautiful and bright daughter. The difference was that way back then my OB must have read something about chorionic implantation and gave me a big hit of HCG as soon as he knew I was pregnant. If not for the extra gonatropin I don't know what might have happened. I had a threatened ab with number two but it was close enough to the first delivery (my eldest was under a year old when I became pregnant) that there may have been leftovers. This is purely speculative on my part. Probably wrong as well. On another note, I'm guessing that when you have those babies this list is going to go completely nuts! We are all so excited with you. Can we have a page in the baby books to express our welcome to the new little angels? Too bad it can't be more meaningful like babysitting in shifts so mom can get a little rest. You take care, Laurel Re: Re: T3- To > Hi Laurel- > > I have no idea what's changed but I'm now converting more T4 to T3 than I > need (before I wasn't coming close to what I needed) so I do think this can > change for us. > > I wonder about the autoantibody thing for thyroid hormone receptors too. If > you can make antibodies for anything, I don't see why some of us with > autoimmune disease aren't making them for these receptors too. And maybe > that affects conversion rates somehow. My immune system is suppressed > because of pregnancy plus I'm taking steroids to make sure I don't have > another immune reaction to the placentas' chorionic villi. I'm also > converting like crazy where I wasn't before (but that could also be affected > by pregnancy hormones too-they don't know). > > > It could be so many things. > > Take care, > > > dx & RAI 1987 (at age 24) > > > > Hey and and all, > > > > Wow. You guys never cease to amaze! > > > > If we are preprogrammed to reduce the number of receptors after a period > of > > hypo or increase them after a period of hyper, can this situation be > > reversed by some mechanism when we have an imbalance? And, since I'm > pretty > > sure that the autoantibodies are making this situation worse or possibly > > causing it, I'm wondering if the mechanism for the various stuff we are > > taking for a decrease in these is what is returning some of us to a > > reasonable homeostasis. > > > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > DISCLAIMER > > Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of > the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 , What you say makes sense. I'm sure that you are on the right track, that the steroids plus the natural immunosupressant effects of pregnancy are helping your conversion. The big questions have to do with the why and how not the what. I've been thinking about his all day. I had two miscarriages before my beautiful and bright daughter. The difference was that way back then my OB must have read something about chorionic implantation and gave me a big hit of HCG as soon as he knew I was pregnant. If not for the extra gonatropin I don't know what might have happened. I had a threatened ab with number two but it was close enough to the first delivery (my eldest was under a year old when I became pregnant) that there may have been leftovers. This is purely speculative on my part. Probably wrong as well. On another note, I'm guessing that when you have those babies this list is going to go completely nuts! We are all so excited with you. Can we have a page in the baby books to express our welcome to the new little angels? Too bad it can't be more meaningful like babysitting in shifts so mom can get a little rest. You take care, Laurel Re: Re: T3- To > Hi Laurel- > > I have no idea what's changed but I'm now converting more T4 to T3 than I > need (before I wasn't coming close to what I needed) so I do think this can > change for us. > > I wonder about the autoantibody thing for thyroid hormone receptors too. If > you can make antibodies for anything, I don't see why some of us with > autoimmune disease aren't making them for these receptors too. And maybe > that affects conversion rates somehow. My immune system is suppressed > because of pregnancy plus I'm taking steroids to make sure I don't have > another immune reaction to the placentas' chorionic villi. I'm also > converting like crazy where I wasn't before (but that could also be affected > by pregnancy hormones too-they don't know). > > > It could be so many things. > > Take care, > > > dx & RAI 1987 (at age 24) > > > > Hey and and all, > > > > Wow. You guys never cease to amaze! > > > > If we are preprogrammed to reduce the number of receptors after a period > of > > hypo or increase them after a period of hyper, can this situation be > > reversed by some mechanism when we have an imbalance? And, since I'm > pretty > > sure that the autoantibodies are making this situation worse or possibly > > causing it, I'm wondering if the mechanism for the various stuff we are > > taking for a decrease in these is what is returning some of us to a > > reasonable homeostasis. > > > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > DISCLAIMER > > Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of > the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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