Re: DHEA dosage --> Waiting period for evaluating impact of suppleme

[Guest guest]

Darren - for chelation you should be able to see effects within a few

cycles. It may take a _long_ time for you to do enough to resolve

things, but the effect will quickly be clear.

As for other supplements, that can be an issue. I'll just give two

examples, so you get some idea of how I have approached this. One is

when I was having trouble with bile production. As I have been on ALA,

that is a critical issue. Various things I tried did not work, but one

day I noticed that when I ate out, I suddenly produced a lot of bile.

So, I thought, perhaps I should use _all_ of the bile supportive

nutrients, rather than just trying one or the other. I threw in

glycine, lecithin, taurine and some milk thistle to boot - and guess

what, it worked! Another example is anti-oxidants. I tried, I went off

them, I tried again, and again went off them. In time, I learned that

if I take then spread throughout the day, then in the times I'm really

feeling f-ed up, they actually help. That took a lot of on-off-on-off

testing, but in time it became clear. Similar considerations apply to

foods that we are reactive to.

So, I'd just say to stick with it. When you find one thing that

actually does work, it is an encouragement to work at finding others.

Hope that helps - Dave.

------------------

Posted by: " Darren " xbluehens@...

xbluehens@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20DHEA%20dosage%20--%3E%20Waiting\

%20period%20for%20evaluating%20impact%20of%20suppleme>

xbluehens http://profiles.yahoo.com/xbluehens>

Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:24 am (PDT)

[...]

>What's most confusing to me is trying to figure out how long to wait

>for a medicine/supplement

>/intervention to assess whether it's helping,

>or whether you should save your money and/or go in a different

>direction. For some drugs, for example, the effect should be

>immediate or within a few days. For some supplements, though, I think

>you need to wait several weeks or months to fully evaluate whether

>it's helping. For chelation, it could be weeks, months, or years

>before noticing a positive impact, I believe. For hormone

>supplementation, I have no idea. I believe supplementary HC helps

>pretty much right away if you're on a proper dose. But what about

>DHEA? I would think that one should be able to notice within a day or

>two if one's found a good therapeutic dose. But maybe I'm wrong on

>that... maybe it has to " build up in the system " for many days/weeks

>to notice an effect. Any thoughts on this?

>Darren

[Guest guest]

>

> Darren - for chelation you should be able to see effects within a few

> cycles. It may take a _long_ time for you to do enough to resolve

> things, but the effect will quickly be clear.

>

I have noticed pronounced " effects " of chelation right away, namely

redistribution effects and other unpleasant effects due to chelators

(when I was at too high doses). After every round, I get at least

some degree of redistribution effects, even though I've reduced my

dosages down to 12mg DMSA, 12mg ALA. This dose feels fine during

round, but I still get subtle redistribution effects afterwards.

From many of the posts I've read about people's long term

experiences with chelation, plus Andy's books, it seems like chelation

can take a very long time to resolve chronic symptoms for some people,

whereas others see very noticeable, positive effects fairly quickly.

As far as positive effects of chelation ( " resolving things " , as you

said), that has been elusive so far, though it's only been a few

months, so we'll see what happens. But I don't think this is

surprising, since while chelation has likely reduced my toxic burden

somewhat over these past few months, it has also stirred up toxins

which inevitably causes collateral damage.

Of course, the key to successful chelation is finding the right,

individually-tailored dosage that moves enough mercury around but

doesn't cause significant collateral damage by stirring up too much at

a time. I'm thinking 12mg ALA, 12mg DMSA might be about right for me

right now, since redistribution effects are mild at this dose. I

started at higher doses and moved downward (long story), but the

safer, more conservative approach is to start low and gradually

increase.

> As for other supplements, that can be an issue. I'll just give two

> examples, so you get some idea of how I have approached this. One is

> when I was having trouble with bile production. As I have been on ALA,

> that is a critical issue. Various things I tried did not work, but one

> day I noticed that when I ate out, I suddenly produced a lot of bile.

> So, I thought, perhaps I should use _all_ of the bile supportive

> nutrients, rather than just trying one or the other. I threw in

> glycine, lecithin, taurine and some milk thistle to boot - and guess

> what, it worked!

If I may ask, how does one know if bile production is sufficient?

Thanks,

Darren

[Guest guest]

>

> Darren - for chelation you should be able to see effects within a few

> cycles. It may take a _long_ time for you to do enough to resolve

> things, but the effect will quickly be clear.

>

I have noticed pronounced " effects " of chelation right away, namely

redistribution effects and other unpleasant effects due to chelators

(when I was at too high doses). After every round, I get at least

some degree of redistribution effects, even though I've reduced my

dosages down to 12mg DMSA, 12mg ALA. This dose feels fine during

round, but I still get subtle redistribution effects afterwards.

From many of the posts I've read about people's long term

experiences with chelation, plus Andy's books, it seems like chelation

can take a very long time to resolve chronic symptoms for some people,

whereas others see very noticeable, positive effects fairly quickly.

As far as positive effects of chelation ( " resolving things " , as you

said), that has been elusive so far, though it's only been a few

months, so we'll see what happens. But I don't think this is

surprising, since while chelation has likely reduced my toxic burden

somewhat over these past few months, it has also stirred up toxins

which inevitably causes collateral damage.

Of course, the key to successful chelation is finding the right,

individually-tailored dosage that moves enough mercury around but

doesn't cause significant collateral damage by stirring up too much at

a time. I'm thinking 12mg ALA, 12mg DMSA might be about right for me

right now, since redistribution effects are mild at this dose. I

started at higher doses and moved downward (long story), but the

safer, more conservative approach is to start low and gradually

increase.

> As for other supplements, that can be an issue. I'll just give two

> examples, so you get some idea of how I have approached this. One is

> when I was having trouble with bile production. As I have been on ALA,

> that is a critical issue. Various things I tried did not work, but one

> day I noticed that when I ate out, I suddenly produced a lot of bile.

> So, I thought, perhaps I should use _all_ of the bile supportive

> nutrients, rather than just trying one or the other. I threw in

> glycine, lecithin, taurine and some milk thistle to boot - and guess

> what, it worked!

If I may ask, how does one know if bile production is sufficient?

Thanks,

Darren

[Guest guest]

I did notice some positive effect fairly quickly, but I have been

conscious enough of my own experience to be able to identify those

effects as the effect of being toxic in the way that I used to be before

I crashed so hard. I was able to get hyper-manic a few times, for

example, working all night and day. It felt nice to be clear headed and

focused; but I became aware that those were not really signs of

recovery. Recovery only started much later - the first sign was at 12

months, when my really deathly leaden exhaustion lifted, turning into

just being plain really really tired. The next step wasn't until

another 5 months after that, when my hormones began to function again.

Since then it's been almost indiscernably slow - but keeping a journal

helps. I can go back and see improvements. The worst and most

long-standing symptoms seem to be the last to go....

As for bile production - you look at your poops. If they are straw

color, then you are in trouble - no bile. A nice warm brown, or even a

green is a much better sign.

And if you don't have much bile, you can still chelate, but you should

work on this issue hard.

Dave.

----------------------

Posted by: " Darren " xbluehens@...

xbluehens@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20DHEA%20dosage%20--%3E%20Waiting\

%20period%20for%20evaluating%20impact%20of%20suppleme>

xbluehens http://profiles.yahoo.com/xbluehens>

Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:21 am (PDT)

>

> Darren - for chelation you should be able to see effects within a few

> cycles. It may take a _long_ time for you to do enough to resolve

> things, but the effect will quickly be clear.

I have noticed pronounced " effects " of chelation right away, namely

redistribution effects and other unpleasant effects due to chelators

(when I was at too high doses). After every round, I get at least

some degree of redistribution effects, even though I've reduced my

dosages down to 12mg DMSA, 12mg ALA. This dose feels fine during

round, but I still get subtle redistribution effects afterwards.

From many of the posts I've read about people's long term

experiences with chelation, plus Andy's books, it seems like chelation

can take a very long time to resolve chronic symptoms for some people,

whereas others see very noticeable, positive effects fairly quickly.

As far as positive effects of chelation ( " resolving things " , as you

said), that has been elusive so far, though it's only been a few

months, so we'll see what happens. But I don't think this is

surprising, since while chelation has likely reduced my toxic burden

somewhat over these past few months, it has also stirred up toxins

which inevitably causes collateral damage.

Of course, the key to successful chelation is finding the right,

individually-tailored dosage that moves enough mercury around but

doesn't cause significant collateral damage by stirring up too much at

a time. I'm thinking 12mg ALA, 12mg DMSA might be about right for me

right now, since redistribution effects are mild at this dose. I

started at higher doses and moved downward (long story), but the

safer, more conservative approach is to start low and gradually

increase.

> As for other supplements, that can be an issue. I'll just give two

> examples, so you get some idea of how I have approached this. One is

> when I was having trouble with bile production. As I have been on ALA,

> that is a critical issue. Various things I tried did not work, but one

> day I noticed that when I ate out, I suddenly produced a lot of bile.

> So, I thought, perhaps I should use _all_ of the bile supportive

> nutrients, rather than just trying one or the other. I threw in

> glycine, lecithin, taurine and some milk thistle to boot - and guess

> what, it worked!

If I may ask, how does one know if bile production is sufficient?

Thanks,

Darren

[Guest guest]

A very helpful post, Dave. Thanks. I now understand the distinction

you're making between initial, transient positive effects of chelation

and lasting, permanent changes, where deep-seated issues are truly

resolved. This will help me know what to look for as I plod ahead.

I am religiously maintaining a daily, symptom/supplement/chelation

journal, so hopefully that will help me detect progress over time,

even if it is very gradual and/or up-and-down.

Thanks again,

Darren

>

> I did notice some positive effect fairly quickly, but I have been

> conscious enough of my own experience to be able to identify those

> effects as the effect of being toxic in the way that I used to be

before

> I crashed so hard. I was able to get hyper-manic a few times, for

> example, working all night and day. It felt nice to be clear headed

and

> focused; but I became aware that those were not really signs of

> recovery. Recovery only started much later - the first sign was at 12

> months, when my really deathly leaden exhaustion lifted, turning into

> just being plain really really tired. The next step wasn't until

> another 5 months after that, when my hormones began to function again.

> Since then it's been almost indiscernably slow - but keeping a journal

> helps. I can go back and see improvements. The worst and most

> long-standing symptoms seem to be the last to go....

>

> As for bile production - you look at your poops. If they are straw

> color, then you are in trouble - no bile. A nice warm brown, or even a

> green is a much better sign.

>

>

>

> And if you don't have much bile, you can still chelate, but you should

> work on this issue hard.

>

> Dave.

> ----------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Yup - " plod " is definitely the word!

I'm glad you're keeping a journal. One thing that I found it really

useful for, was figuring out when I was pushing myself too hard. I

discovered that when I started to miss doses, it was because I was just

way too tired out - and I could see that by going back and reading all

the notes in my journal that said, " really tired " . There is this

strange mercury induced thing where on the one hand we are

hyper-sensitive to certain bodily experiences, but also just kind of

totally unresponsive to others, like hunger, thirst, exhaustion.

I'd be really interested in hearing how it goes. When you notice things

change, I hope you'll tell us.

Dave.

Posted by: " Darren " xbluehens@...

xbluehens@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20DHEA%20dosage%20--%3E%20Waiting\

%20period%20for%20evaluating%20impact%20of%20suppleme>

xbluehens http://profiles.yahoo.com/xbluehens>

Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:45 am (PDT)

A very helpful post, Dave. Thanks. I now understand the distinction

you're making between initial, transient positive effects of chelation

and lasting, permanent changes, where deep-seated issues are truly

resolved. This will help me know what to look for as I plod ahead.

I am religiously maintaining a daily, symptom/supplement/

chelation

journal, so hopefully that will help me detect progress over time,

even if it is very gradual and/or up-and-down.

Thanks again,

Darren

[Guest guest]

Yup - " plod " is definitely the word!

I'm glad you're keeping a journal. One thing that I found it really

useful for, was figuring out when I was pushing myself too hard. I

discovered that when I started to miss doses, it was because I was just

way too tired out - and I could see that by going back and reading all

the notes in my journal that said, " really tired " . There is this

strange mercury induced thing where on the one hand we are

hyper-sensitive to certain bodily experiences, but also just kind of

totally unresponsive to others, like hunger, thirst, exhaustion.

I'd be really interested in hearing how it goes. When you notice things

change, I hope you'll tell us.

Dave.

Posted by: " Darren " xbluehens@...

xbluehens@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20DHEA%20dosage%20--%3E%20Waiting\

%20period%20for%20evaluating%20impact%20of%20suppleme>

xbluehens http://profiles.yahoo.com/xbluehens>

Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:45 am (PDT)

A very helpful post, Dave. Thanks. I now understand the distinction

you're making between initial, transient positive effects of chelation

and lasting, permanent changes, where deep-seated issues are truly

resolved. This will help me know what to look for as I plod ahead.

I am religiously maintaining a daily, symptom/supplement/

chelation

journal, so hopefully that will help me detect progress over time,

even if it is very gradual and/or up-and-down.

Thanks again,

Darren