Husbands... and who does what (very long)

[Guest guest]

I've been wondering whether or not to post about this for a while,

but am going to bite the bullet. It's a bit tricky, since I'm hugely

loyal to DH, and I am sure you all are to your DHs too, so perhaps

you don't want to give me examples from your own situations… - but

it's such a recurring theme with us and it's like a hole we are not

getting out of, so I need some advice.

Basically I think the situation is we love each other and respect

each other, but are both exhausted, and thus keep thinking the other

person gets a better deal and are both looking for someone to blame.

Probably pretty classic, I don't know.

I feel that I have the full responsibility for the kids all through

the week – which is OK. It means if they cry in the night it's me who

comforts them, and if they are up early it's me who gets up with

them. If it's a day when DH and I are both working (3 days per week),

I get the kids changed and ready and give them hugs and do the hand-

over, and it's me who will rush back at 6 to give them supper and

baths and put them to bed. (Unless DH happens to be back early, in

which case he `gives me a hand').If they are ill, or need to go to

the doctor or something else, it's me who takes time off work. If

it's a day when I am at home without the nanny (1 day per week

usually) I of course do all of the above, plus look after the kids in

the day. On the fifth day of the week the nanny comes in and I try to

get some stuff done at home (working from home, plus getting house

sorted after building works) – this is my luxury, as it means I can

go back to sleep for an hour or two at 8 after I've been up with the

kids from 6 and before I get down to working from home.

This is kind of OK – I do enjoy being with the kids although every

day is hectic and I recognise that DH earns most of our income –

well, all, really since my income goes to the nanny – so I don't

really have problems with the fact that it's me who has to take the

practical and emotional responsibility for the kids during the week.

Still it does mean he comes home and puts his feet up, or perhaps

makes dinner, and watches TV until 12,or 1 – whereas I run madly

around the house tidying up toys, making bottles for the baby, put

the washing machine on, check whether we have food and money in the

house for the kids and the nanny, and rush to bed at 11 to try and

get some sleep before someone wakes me up. So DH and I do argue in

the week too – because at 5 minutes to 11 there are a few minor tasks

left to do and I'll ask if he can do them since he is staying up

anyway and I'm accused of nagging, as he needs to relax.

Then comes the weekend and I think we are going to share the

responsibility, but it just doesn't happen. Don't get me wrong – he's

a great Dad – and we try to split some things, so in theory I get up

with them on Saturday and DH on Sunday for example. And if we take

them out, he'll do his share. But it's something about who remembers

that they need meals and a sleep and new clothes and clean clothes

and a hug or some stimulation, or whatever it might be. Who is

running the day – who has a timetable for each child in their head?

That's me, of course. You get my drift – I can ask him to do

anything – change a nappy or give someone breakfast or take someone

out for a walk or read someone a book – and he will do it (and he'll

enjoy it, be cheerful etc). But if I don't ask, it wont happen. So

either I just do the whole thing on my own (makes me upset and

angry), or I will delegate him little simple tasks (makes me feel

marginally better), or wait for him to do something really obvious

which he then doesn't do (makes me have a go at him and he gets

pissed off).

I don't think I resent having to do everything myself – I mean, I

would if I had to – and whenever he is away I just get on with it.

But when he IS around I feel that he should be as an intuitive parent

as I am – why shouldn't he be – I know he is capable of it? I don't

want to be `given a hand' – they are his kids as much as mine – so

why do I have to be the delegator all the time? Also I feel that he

doesn't grasp the full reality of being a parent, as he's still doing

everything he used to do - it's like he is himself with a bit of

parent on the side, whereas I am a parent with a bit of myself on the

side.

(I guess this is another reason behind my indecision wrt work and

home – I'm afraid to go full time because I worked full time after DD

and I still had sole responsibility for the kids during the week

(even though we were both working) and I was totally exhausted with

the different priorities – and I am afraid to quit work entirely

because it will be an additional excuse for him to run his life as he

wants during the week – ie go to bed late, get up late, work as much

as he needs to, etc. - as then we'll rely even more on his job).

Oh I don't know.

I fully understand his position too – he wants to mellow when he is

at home, and it's true that he doesn't get as worked up as me about

things and so he is a really cheerful positive influence in the house

(and he does do other things for us… plan our finances, think about

holidays – ie, long term things that are not repetitive).

Yet it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, because the more I have to

do on my own the more it is me who is always tired and grumpy and

nagging and run-down, and I really hate being like that.

Sorry to go on… I feel it's such a banal conflict really, but I just

don't know what to do.

We argue all the time, and I can't see any way out. I don't want to

reconcile myself to the fact because I am the `mum' I have to be the

default for everything to do with the kids (I'm sure my parents split

it better than this) – although this is what I see all my (female)

friends doing. I guess I could just stop doing certain things, but

that doesn't really help either since it's me who would feel guilty

and not him. Or I could just go out sometimes, which means he'll get

on with the absolute basics, but will leave anything else (ie they

will get food and nappies, but no-one will do the washing or follow

up their potty training…)

The main thing is I want us to be able to work through this and so

does he, but at the moment I am just resentful of his `freedom' to

run his own days and of his lack of guilt, and he is resentful of my

two days `off' and the lack of pressure on me to bring home the bacon.

Help, someone! DH and I have been through rough times before, so we

should be able to do this too, but how!!

Thanks

Karina

[Guest guest]

Karina wrote:

> Basically I think the situation is we love each other and respect

> each other, but are both exhausted, and thus keep thinking the

other

> person gets a better deal and are both looking for someone to

blame.

> Probably pretty classic, I don't know.>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>..

I think you are talking about what lots of women think.

If you want the situation to change you will have to discuss it with

your DH. Maybe even to drawing up a " jobs " list and sharing the

tasks more evenly.

To get my DH to accept what I did during the day, I took the boys to

nursery and left him to do the housework. I rang him at lunch time

and asked how he was getting on. He told me that he had cleaned the

living room and the kitchen. I told him that he better get a move on

as he only had X amount of hours left and the boys would be home to

wreck it once again.

I think he then appreciated that I did more than sit around talking

about the NCT. Although of course it varies, he finally did some jobs

at the weekend that I have wanted him to do for months.

I think you have to listen to what he thinks you do and what you

think he does and come to some agreement (without shouting). If you

think this is not possible, could you not use one of your nanny days

and get him to have a day off as well so that you could discuss it

in " public " ie a restaurant or cafe where it would be very hard to

let the discussion get out of hand.

Best of luck.

Trisha

SAHM to 3 boys

[Guest guest]

Karina:

I have been married for 34 yrs and I have decided that men, well, my

DH at least, is NOT an inuitive parent; maybe they just AREN'T.

OK I never worked outside the home when I had small kids so the

childrearing housework etc naturally fell to me. But as you so

eloquently put it, the kids' schedules, who had to be taken where,

orthodontist, optician, etc, all fell to me to organise. If I was

*really* stuck he might do a turn, but he hardly ever did school

rota, not even when I'd just had a baby, it was up to me to get

friends to do it for me till I was back on my feet. And shopping?

Forget it, he has never done a supermarket shop for me, although he

might be persuaded to pick up a few items from local shops on his way

home.

BUT he does work very hard, and often doesn't go to bed before 3 am.

not cos he's watching TV but cos he's working at home catching up. So

what could I say about it? I just let it go.

Where I have recently made a stand was the issue of talking to our

teenage son Yeshaya. DH hates confrontations and surly teenagers are

top of his list of confrontations he hates. So DH would much rather

have a yell at ME about whatever is lacking with Yeshaya than tackle

HIM about it, and that really annoys me. DH will say: " oh I can't

fight with him.. " or words to that effect, but something is obviously

eating him up about his teenager and he doesn't like talking to him

about it. On this I have stood my ground and nagged the pants off DH

until he realises that I mean it, and he does have to actually face

his son and talk to him ....be a real Dad not some distant n

father figure which is what he sometimes can be like.

I think he *is* quite an oldfashioned husband and father, the

provider type, not the hands on type, but he's a good provider so I

suppose I shouldn't complain.

Ruthie (feeling guilty for betraying her DH!)

[Guest guest]

Karina

Are you sure you aren't living my life? I think we all feel prety

much the same at several point in life/marriage etc.

MY DH is a 'get away with the minimum he has to do' type of chap and

yes it drives me insane!!!!! We have just discussed the guilt thing

and he said 'why feel guilty about the house work?' See that just

explains men to a tee.:-))

I know that this is no solution, but I have started going out and

leaving him to it. It is the only way I can get some sane time and he

doesn't wind me up!

I don't know if it ever gets better, I think it just changes as time

goes on and the kids grow up.

Sorry this doesn't help much, but at least you know you are

*DEFINATELY NOT ALONE*.

Kirsten

Mum to (2 years, just!) Step-mom to Shelby (6yrs)

Trainee ANT, and Memb-sec Woking and Knaphill Branches.

>Still it does mean he comes home and puts his feet up, or perhaps

>makes dinner, and watches TV until 12,or 1 - whereas I run madly

around the house tidying up toys, making bottles for the baby, put

the washing machine on, check whether we have food and money in the

house for the kids and the nanny, and rush to bed at 11 to try and

get some sleep before someone wakes me up. So DH and I do argue in

the week too - because at 5 minutes to 11 there are a few minor tasks

left to do and I'll ask if he can do them since he is staying up

anyway and I'm accused of nagging, as he needs to relax.

[Guest guest]

Karina,

Karina, you have described very eloquently my situation to a large

extent. I also thought you put it very rationally and sensitively.

I too have been battling with my expectation that DH should be *equal*

in terms of the child rearing, but have concluded that he just

isn't/can't. He is not *naturally* on their level - I have decided he

actually does not know how to even really play with the children. If

asked to look after them because I'm going out, I'll come home to find

them watching telly or playing computer games, (and DH doing something

else). Also *if* he does look after the children there is an

underlying feeling (from both sides)that it is a favour to me. This

is what I guess you are trying to avoid. I feel surprised to find

myself in this sort of arrangement, but that is how it has developed.

I felt so annoyed with him on our holiday July this year as DH spent

all our time on the beach flying a kite. My parents (who came too)

did the lions share of entertaining, building sandcastles, hunting for

shells, splashing, chasing and playing. I think I yelled at him once

" they are your children, and want to spend some time with you " . It's

just that his idea of relaxation isn't playing with children, I find

it *really* disappointing but I guess I'm beginning to accept it.

He's missing out. I feel I can only show him how he could play and

try and include him. My father is absolutely brilliant with his

grandchildren, but apparantly (according to mum) was just not there

very much when we were growing up! He worked during the week and then

played rugby and golf at the weekends, fitting his family in the gaps.

Imagine that!

What would I do? Well show him your e-mail, I thought it explained

really well how you feel. Other than that I just don't know apart

from trying to get yourself into a situation where you are not feeling

resentful of him and try to get him to work out what would make him

less resentful of you.

Fingers crossed for you, I'd be interested in any ideas too.

phine

(Mum to nearly 4 & Ben nearly 3, Cambridge NCT)

I've been wondering whether or not to post about this for a while,

but am going to bite the bullet. It's a bit tricky, since I'm hugely

loyal to DH, and I am sure you all are to your DHs too, so perhaps

you don't want to give me examples from your own situations. - but

it's such a recurring theme with us and it's like a hole we are not

getting out of, so I need some advice.

[Guest guest]

Karina - poor you.

I know exactly what you mean. My DH is good at most things around the

house/parenting - if asked and given exact instructions, but has *no*

initiative at all. I think it is a man thing - my mum moans about my

dad in exactly the same sort of way.

I can't really complain (although I frequently do and just get told to

" chill out " ) as he does do part of the ironing, washing up, other

housey things and will get DS washed/dressed/fed/entertained if I've

got the clothes out, organised what's on the menu and given him some

suggestion of games to play.

But it is *so* frustrating when they just can't to see what needs

doing. I don't begrudge doing anything at all during the week when

I'm here on my own, but at weekends I do. Fortunately for me, because

DS hasn't seen DH all week, he monopolises him somewhat, so I do,

naturally, get a bit more of a break.

I don't know what the answer is, but you are definitely not alone. It

does seem as if you both need to talk about it, if only to agree what

" jobs " he has to do each day/week. It doesn't overcome the " just

knowing " what needs to be done bit of the problem (perhaps it's just

men and they don't " just know " ) but it will help ease the list of

things you have to do yourself.

Good luck

Todman

Treasurer, Stansted Branch (R5)

Mum to , 3½

I've been wondering whether or not to post about this for a while,

but am going to bite the bullet. It's a bit tricky, since I'm hugely

loyal to DH, and I am sure you all are to your DHs too, so perhaps

[Guest guest]

Karina,

SNAP!!

It seems to be the same for most of us doesn't it. I work outside

the home full time, like my DH (and earn more than him, which is

somewhta irrelevant, but just to make the point he is not the main

breadwinner), yet it is me who does all the housework and cooking,

and makes all the decisions about the children...

One (petty!!) example...I went to get some cranberry juice from the

fridge..there was just an empty carton (a favourite DH trick). I

asked DH why he hadn't hadn't put some in the trolley when we went

shopping...he said he forgot, and therefore it wasn't his

fault....this is his standard response, meaning I have to take

responsibility for everything. Sometimes I feel like being petty and

labelling my stuff in the fridge ;-) or leaving his washing in the

basket!! It was me who had to find out about dyslexia testing for

Archie, and decide when to wean Sally...he isn't intuitive and he

doesn't instigate things...aaagh

{{{{hugs to fellow mums with pita husbands}}}}}

Emma

[Guest guest]

I think we probably all go through this one to some degree! My dh doesn't

do the intuitive thing either and it's still mildly annoying - I'm sure I

saw a programme once that explained that men's brains are different and they

are less able to notice small visual details (I don't think I'm explaining

this very well LOL) so things like picking out a suitable co-ordinated

outfit out of one of the children's wardrobes is just about impossible for

dh..... and he doesn't notice things like dirty faces and hair that needs

brushing before we leave the house.

It definitely helps lessen feelings of resentment if each partner has clear

duties to be responsible for that both parties feel are fair. The division

of labour has varied considerably depending on circumstances. At one stage

he used to work 5am to 9pm (with a couple of hours break at lunch)so I used

to do everything and have a meal ready for him when he got in........I

didn't mind 'cause he was working himself to death. Since we've moved and

he's changed offices he's back around 9.30- 10am every day and he now does

all kitchen duties, cooks most nights, picks the children up from school in

term time and various other bits and pieces. I do clothes washing, dusting,

hoovering and bathrooms. You just need to work out what's fair.

This reminds me, I had this conversation with my younger sister (one son -

now 3 1/2) when her son was a baby, and she took it to the extreme and drew

up extensive rotas that covered absolutely everything, right down to who had

to give the baby his bottle for every feed, every day of the week! They're

now separated so maybe don't take it too far! ;o)

Hannah, 27

Mum to Bethany 7, Lawrence 5 1/2, Verity 3, Alfie 6 months

Visit me on the web at :-

http://hannahshome.20m.com

[Guest guest]

>Sometimes I feel like being petty and

>leaving his washing in the

>basket!!

I don't leave DH's washing in the basket as it doesn't get there but I

do leave it on the floor next to his side of the bed. ;-)

--

Sue

[Guest guest]

I don't think men " do " intuition dh and I have had countless talks about this..

he went through a phase (this REALLY annoyed me) where he would be around during

the weekend and then think OH I am hungry and then go and make himself a

sandwich and then proceed to eat it NEVER once asking if anyone else needed

lunch (and inevitably Phoebe did and then I would end up rushing around to get

her sorted because she didn't get why she could not have lunch when daddy

could).. If I then said to him WHY did you not make Phoebe and me some lunch??

he would look confused (at times say don't nag and that is like a red cloth to a

bull with me) then say but I was hungry.. !!!! It is like YES...... so if YOU

are hungry WHAT do you think the rest of us are?? semi solved this one by

insisting that we sit down for lunch at weekends and he is beginning to get that

this is important..

I don't think there is a easy solution to this.. I read a article saying that

men simply are better at saying (to them selves) I need to sit down with the

newspaper and have a cup of coffee and then do it.. women think I need a cup of

coffee and 5 mins with the newspaper but those veggies need cutting up and put

in the freezer or they will go bad so they will do this instead. men don't think

about the veggies it is this is my need so this is what I will do... (I know

this is put crudely)... for me what worked was to become a little less worried

about the kids " schedule " as long as they are fed and have a drink then most

other things won't matter if they don't happen when they are meant to.. if dh

then asks should they not be doing x y z (does happen though rarely lol) then I

say yes good idea why don';t you do that...

Also I became very adamant about having MY TIME off.. so I will say I am going

down to the shops and I am leaving the kids here. or I will arrange lunch with a

girlfriend etc.. and I will just say I am having lunch with say ellie on

Saturday I won't check if he can look after the kids as they are his as much as

mine so it is not a matter of it fitting in with him or his plans (apart from if

he has arranged to see someone then we negotiate around it at times taking a kid

each other times one of us takes both or we cancel one of the things).. If he

pull's the I need to relax and be mellow then I point out to him that SO DO I...

(this is a need for you no matter if you work full time part time or is a

sahm... it is about being allowed to do what you like)..

we sort of rub along quite nicely I still get frustrated when he doesn't get

things but I have learned that some things he wont see (like hair needs

brushing) but other things he has started noticing (like nappy needs changing)

and it works better that way. we both needed to let go a little. I have had to

set my goals down a little and he has had to realise that he has to take his

part completely to..

For me this is mainly weekend stuff (so perhaps easier to deal with) as dh

rarely is home until 8-9 pm and the girls are in bed then.. But I must say that

after 6 months I have made a point out of making sure that he takes his fair

share of the wakeup call's he NEVER wakes up when they cry but I will wake him

and say Eloisa is crying can you go to her.. took a while for him to get I was

serious but now he does it no trouble ;o) So there is hope out there ;o)...

as I said no easy solution I think it is men are from mars women are from venus

stuff but it is possible to work something out for both of you.. (Incidentally

we had a bit of a breakthrough on this front when my oldest was 18 months and I

left her with dh for a weekend he realised then how hard work kids are on their

own I think..)

Lonnie Phoebe & Eloisa's mama

& expecting a Christmas delivery...

My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what you

start.

So far today, I have finished 2 bags of chips and a Chocolate cake.

I feel better already.

Husbands... and who does what (very long)

I've been wondering whether or not to post about this for a while,

but am going to bite the bullet. It's a bit tricky, since I'm hugely

loyal to DH, and I am sure you all are to your DHs too, so perhaps

you don't want to give me examples from your own situations. - but

it's such a recurring theme with us and it's like a hole we are not

getting out of, so I need some advice.

Basically I think the situation is we love each other and respect

each other, but are both exhausted, and thus keep thinking the other

person gets a better deal and are both looking for someone to blame.

Probably pretty classic, I don't know.

I feel that I have the full responsibility for the kids all through

the week - which is OK. It means if they cry in the night it's me who

comforts them, and if they are up early it's me who gets up with

them. If it's a day when DH and I are both working (3 days per week),

I get the kids changed and ready and give them hugs and do the hand-

over, and it's me who will rush back at 6 to give them supper and

baths and put them to bed. (Unless DH happens to be back early, in

which case he `gives me a hand').If they are ill, or need to go to

the doctor or something else, it's me who takes time off work. If

it's a day when I am at home without the nanny (1 day per week

usually) I of course do all of the above, plus look after the kids in

the day. On the fifth day of the week the nanny comes in and I try to

get some stuff done at home (working from home, plus getting house

sorted after building works) - this is my luxury, as it means I can

go back to sleep for an hour or two at 8 after I've been up with the

kids from 6 and before I get down to working from home.

This is kind of OK - I do enjoy being with the kids although every

day is hectic and I recognise that DH earns most of our income -

well, all, really since my income goes to the nanny - so I don't

really have problems with the fact that it's me who has to take the

practical and emotional responsibility for the kids during the week.

Still it does mean he comes home and puts his feet up, or perhaps

makes dinner, and watches TV until 12,or 1 - whereas I run madly

around the house tidying up toys, making bottles for the baby, put

the washing machine on, check whether we have food and money in the

house for the kids and the nanny, and rush to bed at 11 to try and

get some sleep before someone wakes me up. So DH and I do argue in

the week too - because at 5 minutes to 11 there are a few minor tasks

left to do and I'll ask if he can do them since he is staying up

anyway and I'm accused of nagging, as he needs to relax.

Then comes the weekend and I think we are going to share the

responsibility, but it just doesn't happen. Don't get me wrong - he's

a great Dad - and we try to split some things, so in theory I get up

with them on Saturday and DH on Sunday for example. And if we take

them out, he'll do his share. But it's something about who remembers

that they need meals and a sleep and new clothes and clean clothes

and a hug or some stimulation, or whatever it might be. Who is

running the day - who has a timetable for each child in their head?

That's me, of course. You get my drift - I can ask him to do

anything - change a nappy or give someone breakfast or take someone

out for a walk or read someone a book - and he will do it (and he'll

enjoy it, be cheerful etc). But if I don't ask, it wont happen. So

either I just do the whole thing on my own (makes me upset and

angry), or I will delegate him little simple tasks (makes me feel

marginally better), or wait for him to do something really obvious

which he then doesn't do (makes me have a go at him and he gets

pissed off).

I don't think I resent having to do everything myself - I mean, I

would if I had to - and whenever he is away I just get on with it.

But when he IS around I feel that he should be as an intuitive parent

as I am - why shouldn't he be - I know he is capable of it? I don't

want to be `given a hand' - they are his kids as much as mine - so

why do I have to be the delegator all the time? Also I feel that he

doesn't grasp the full reality of being a parent, as he's still doing

everything he used to do - it's like he is himself with a bit of

parent on the side, whereas I am a parent with a bit of myself on the

side.

(I guess this is another reason behind my indecision wrt work and

home - I'm afraid to go full time because I worked full time after DD

and I still had sole responsibility for the kids during the week

(even though we were both working) and I was totally exhausted with

the different priorities - and I am afraid to quit work entirely

because it will be an additional excuse for him to run his life as he

wants during the week - ie go to bed late, get up late, work as much

as he needs to, etc. - as then we'll rely even more on his job).

Oh I don't know.

I fully understand his position too - he wants to mellow when he is

at home, and it's true that he doesn't get as worked up as me about

things and so he is a really cheerful positive influence in the house

(and he does do other things for us. plan our finances, think about

holidays - ie, long term things that are not repetitive).

Yet it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, because the more I have to

do on my own the more it is me who is always tired and grumpy and

nagging and run-down, and I really hate being like that.

Sorry to go on. I feel it's such a banal conflict really, but I just

don't know what to do.

We argue all the time, and I can't see any way out. I don't want to

reconcile myself to the fact because I am the `mum' I have to be the

default for everything to do with the kids (I'm sure my parents split

it better than this) - although this is what I see all my (female)

friends doing. I guess I could just stop doing certain things, but

that doesn't really help either since it's me who would feel guilty

and not him. Or I could just go out sometimes, which means he'll get

on with the absolute basics, but will leave anything else (ie they

will get food and nappies, but no-one will do the washing or follow

up their potty training.)

The main thing is I want us to be able to work through this and so

does he, but at the moment I am just resentful of his `freedom' to

run his own days and of his lack of guilt, and he is resentful of my

two days `off' and the lack of pressure on me to bring home the bacon.

Help, someone! DH and I have been through rough times before, so we

should be able to do this too, but how!!

Thanks

Karina

[Guest guest]

Finally caught up with my mail after major 'putor problems ( we now have sooper

dooper all singing dancing box) and two week holiday - will tell you all about

it later.

Karina we all ( well those of us that live with un reconstructed men) have the

same sort of problems. One of my close gf decided that basically I am a single

mother of three .. the eldest (43) being the most difficult and likely to do a

impression if requested to do anything with girls or around the house and

if he manages to do it expects a gold star!!

I have instituted a 'dirty' protest in so far as I do the essentials cleaning

wise and the rest can go hang and as he makes quite a mess in his own right why

the thump should I clear it up - My stand being I work part time (4 mornings a

week), sort out the girls, do the home work, talk to the teachers, cook, bottle

wash etc, keep the garden tidy and if I am everso luck he might just manage to

help fill the washer. I could wind up for a really good rant but think I'd

better not

Caroline

Jersey

> ** Original Subject: Husbands... and who does what (very long)

> **

> ** Original Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:49:57 +0100

> ** Original Message follows...

>

> I've been wondering whether or not to post about this for a while,

> but am going to bite the bullet. It's a bit tricky, since I'm hugely

> loyal to DH, and I am sure you all are to your DHs too, so perhaps

> you don't want to give me examples from your own situations… - but

> it's such a recurring theme with us and it's like a hole we are not

> getting out of, so I need some advice.

>

> Basically I think the situation is we love each other and respect

> each other, but are both exhausted, and thus keep thinking the other

> person gets a better deal and are both looking for someone to blame.

> Probably pretty classic, I don't know.

>

> I feel that I have the full responsibility for the kids all through

> the week – which is OK. It means if they cry in the night it's me who

> comforts them, and if they are up early it's me who gets up with

> them. If it's a day when DH and I are both working (3 days per week),

> I get the kids changed and ready and give them hugs and do the hand-

> over, and it's me who will rush back at 6 to give them supper and

> baths and put them to bed. (Unless DH happens to be back early, in

> which case he `gives me a hand').If they are ill, or need to go to

> the doctor or something else, it's me who takes time off work. If

> it's a day when I am at home without the nanny (1 day per week

> usually) I of course do all of the above, plus look after the kids in

> the day. On the fifth day of the week the nanny comes in and I try to

> get some stuff done at home (working from home, plus getting house

> sorted after building works) – this is my luxury, as it means I can

> go back to sleep for an hour or two at 8 after I've been up with the

> kids from 6 and before I get down to working from home.

>

> This is kind of OK – I do enjoy being with the kids although every

> day is hectic and I recognise that DH earns most of our income –

> well, all, really since my income goes to the nanny – so I don't

> really have problems with the fact that it's me who has to take the

> practical and emotional responsibility for the kids during the week.

> Still it does mean he comes home and puts his feet up, or perhaps

> makes dinner, and watches TV until 12,or 1 – whereas I run madly

> around the house tidying up toys, making bottles for the baby, put

> the washing machine on, check whether we have food and money in the

> house for the kids and the nanny, and rush to bed at 11 to try and

> get some sleep before someone wakes me up. So DH and I do argue in

> the week too – because at 5 minutes to 11 there are a few minor tasks

> left to do and I'll ask if he can do them since he is staying up

> anyway and I'm accused of nagging, as he needs to relax.

>

> Then comes the weekend and I think we are going to share the

> responsibility, but it just doesn't happen. Don't get me wrong – he's

> a great Dad – and we try to split some things, so in theory I get up

> with them on Saturday and DH on Sunday for example. And if we take

> them out, he'll do his share. But it's something about who remembers

> that they need meals and a sleep and new clothes and clean clothes

> and a hug or some stimulation, or whatever it might be. Who is

> running the day – who has a timetable for each child in their head?

> That's me, of course. You get my drift – I can ask him to do

> anything – change a nappy or give someone breakfast or take someone

> out for a walk or read someone a book – and he will do it (and he'll

> enjoy it, be cheerful etc). But if I don't ask, it wont happen. So

> either I just do the whole thing on my own (makes me upset and

> angry), or I will delegate him little simple tasks (makes me feel

> marginally better), or wait for him to do something really obvious

> which he then doesn't do (makes me have a go at him and he gets

> pissed off).

>

> I don't think I resent having to do everything myself – I mean, I

> would if I had to – and whenever he is away I just get on with it.

> But when he IS around I feel that he should be as an intuitive parent

> as I am – why shouldn't he be – I know he is capable of it? I don't

> want to be `given a hand' – they are his kids as much as mine – so

> why do I have to be the delegator all the time? Also I feel that he

> doesn't grasp the full reality of being a parent, as he's still doing

> everything he used to do - it's like he is himself with a bit of

> parent on the side, whereas I am a parent with a bit of myself on the

> side.

>

> (I guess this is another reason behind my indecision wrt work and

> home – I'm afraid to go full time because I worked full time after DD

> and I still had sole responsibility for the kids during the week

> (even though we were both working) and I was totally exhausted with

> the different priorities – and I am afraid to quit work entirely

> because it will be an additional excuse for him to run his life as he

> wants during the week – ie go to bed late, get up late, work as much

> as he needs to, etc. - as then we'll rely even more on his job).

>

> Oh I don't know.

> I fully understand his position too – he wants to mellow when he is

> at home, and it's true that he doesn't get as worked up as me about

> things and so he is a really cheerful positive influence in the house

> (and he does do other things for us… plan our finances, think about

> holidays – ie, long term things that are not repetitive).

> Yet it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, because the more I have to

> do on my own the more it is me who is always tired and grumpy and

> nagging and run-down, and I really hate being like that.

>

> Sorry to go on… I feel it's such a banal conflict really, but I just

> don't know what to do.

> We argue all the time, and I can't see any way out. I don't want to

> reconcile myself to the fact because I am the `mum' I have to be the

> default for everything to do with the kids (I'm sure my parents split

> it better than this) – although this is what I see all my (female)

> friends doing. I guess I could just stop doing certain things, but

> that doesn't really help either since it's me who would feel guilty

> and not him. Or I could just go out sometimes, which means he'll get

> on with the absolute basics, but will leave anything else (ie they

> will get food and nappies, but no-one will do the washing or follow

> up their potty training…)

>

> The main thing is I want us to be able to work through this and so

> does he, but at the moment I am just resentful of his `freedom' to

> run his own days and of his lack of guilt, and he is resentful of my

> two days `off' and the lack of pressure on me to bring home the bacon.

>

> Help, someone! DH and I have been through rough times before, so we

> should be able to do this too, but how!!

>

> Thanks

> Karina

>

>

>

>

>

> *** NCT enquiry line - 0 ***

>

> Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee

>

> Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oooh Karina, you will have touched many a chord here....

Some of will know - or have heard of - my DH and will think he is wonderful.

In fact only this week someone said to me in an email what a gem he was. And

he is and I tell him so. But it was not always thus...

When we first lived together I worked ft, shifts, 1 weekend off in two and 1

weekday off. I used to do all the housework in my day off, cook whenever I

was there. DH did nothing except feed himself when I wasn't there. About

every 4-6 months we would have a major row and it would get a little better.

Then after 3 years we had a baby. I was at home so... you guessed it -I did

it all. 17months later I had another baby - and she was *velcro* baby so dh

had to help out with dd1. I started work. Part-time so still did it all

pretty well - except dh was happy to do what was asked of him.

I agree with all those that said that men are not intuitive - they just

*don't* see the toilet that needs cleaning, the floor that needs sweeping.

This is really hard to understand! :-)

What changed things for us - it would be wouldn't it? - was the NCT!!! The

NCT very literally came to the rescue of my sanity when I had dd2. It

transformed all our lives - including dh's. A saying I love - how true -

" Ain't Momma happy, ain't nobody happy! " was certainly true for us.

So I volunteered to work for the NCT. Dh understands a thing or two about

volunteering - he has been a scout leader for 29 years - and he was very

supportive - he wanted me to be happy.

And so I gradually increased the amount that I do for the NCT, I gradually

increased the hours I do at work, during one jump in hours I said I wanted a

cleaner and could justify spending the money because my increase in hours

more than paid for it.

As I increased what I do outside the home so he increased what he does

inside. And our cleaner does the ironing. DH does all the shopping, *most*

of the cooking, all the grass cuttting, and loads of bits and pieces.

Where once I did it all now I put the washing machine on, hang out washing,

clean the toilets and sweep the kitchen floor once a week. And that is

pretty well all I do. But I do do social arrangements, babysitters, organise

girls stuff. DH will do what asked -like he took dd1 to the orthodontist

twice because I wasn't around.

So, what am I trying to say? Having a cleaner made a big difference - it

made me relax when I noticed dirt/smears/dust and think " oh, ette'll do

that " and it made a big difference for dh when she started doing the ironing

as he had hated that and I used to ask him to do some every weekend. Asking

DH to do stuff made a difference but agreeing it was his job - forever -

made a bigger one. Like now, everyone knows it is his job to shop - so when

we run out of something the girls say " Dad, when you go shopping... "

And still I am the one who is always busy...

And still there are irritations - I have long tried to persuade dh that the

car is his responsibility - this year I told him it was all his - so the day

before we went on hols who took it to a mechanic, got the rear light fixed,

got it MOT'd, taxed and sorted out the insurance - yes you're right, it was

me! Otherwise we would have been on holiday with four girls (two not ours)

with no car insurance!!!

And - a tip from me - whatever it is like with DH it will be worse with kids

as they grow. Getting teenagers to help out is a mountainous task. For us

allocating jobs has been really helpful. DD1 always feeds the cats, DD2

always cleans out the cat litter - at least you know who to ask when they

have neglected to do it and they can't say it's not fair/not my turn/she

hasn't...

I could discuss this ad infinitum, thanks for bringing it up Karina

Sue

[Guest guest]

And still there are irritations - I have long tried to persuade dh

that the

> car is his responsibility - this year I told him it was all his -

so the day

> before we went on hols who took it to a mechanic, got the rear

light fixed,

> got it MOT'd, taxed and sorted out the insurance - yes you're

right, it was

> me! Otherwise we would have been on holiday with four girls (two

not ours)

> with no car insurance!!!

Oh finances, car tax etc are totally DH's area of expertise, to the

extent where I am a bit worried how I'd cope if he wasn't around...

( I'll go and get my car MOT'd but I need DH to tell me it's

overdue.

>

> And - a tip from me - whatever it is like with DH it will be worse

with kids

> as they grow. Getting teenagers to help out is a mountainous task.

For us

> allocating jobs has been really helpful. DD1 always feeds the cats,

DD2

> always cleans out the cat litter - at least you know who to ask

when they

> have neglected to do it and they can't say it's not fair/not my

turn/she

> hasn't...

Sue, how I agree, but my girls have been far better than the boys,

with Yeshaya coming bottom of the food chain as regards helping, he's

the laziest sod on earth! With 8 kids (plus a foster son) to bring

up there was no way I could have done it without my older girls.

After a certain stage I didn't bath a child ever again, the older

ones always bathed the younger ones, and got them into bed too. Each

teenage girl had a " baby " she was responsible for, nappy changing.

dressing and undressing etc got done by magic. Sara (DD1) was very

good at organisation, and she had all her younger siblings organised

and entertained like a drill sergeant. Tammy (DD2) a talented

hairdresser, did Tavya and Zehava's hair when they were little,

making gorgeous french braids etc. Everyone knew when Tammy was

away from home, cos the two littlest girls' hair looked a mess!

Avigayil (DD3) has always been on another planet and it was all she

could do to keep herself organised, never mind anyone else, but even

she took on Yeshaya's nappy changing detail.

I miss them being at home now, I have to do everything myself,

admittedly Yeshaya doesn't need much in the way of nappy changing

these days!

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

Karina, as Kirsten said, are you sure you’re not living my

life?

I have yelled at my DH many times about this sort of

things, but things change more when I give him precise

instructions: e.g. 'you can sleep as late as you want on

Saturday, but *I* get to sleep as late as I want on Sunday

- EVERY Sunday - and you have to get up with Calvin, feed

him, dress him, and entertain him - preferably outdoors -

until he takes his morning nap. You still have to entertain

him, even if I get up before the nap starts, and you can’t

just go back to bed as soon as you see me shuffling down

the hall to the bathroom.’

I still have to do everything else (except dishes, which

are his *only* job) unless I specifically request

assistance. Every now and then, he takes an initiative,

like this weekend, when he took Calvin and went to the

supermarket. Unfortunately, of a list of 10 things, he

bought 5, two of which he had added himself and which we

didn’t actually need, but he tried...

Or if we’re all going out somewhere, I end up getting

myself and Calvin ready, close the windows, get Calvin a

drink to go, make sure we have snacks, etc. And DH gets his

shoes on and wonders why we’re not ready and I haven’t had

a chance to go to the bathroom yet.

My only advice is to talk about it without shouting and if

you can’t do that at home, then go to see a counsellor for

a few sessions, just to get things started. Of course,

you’ll have to organise the appointments, childcare, etc

but it should be worth it

Phyllis

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Karina

you must be shattered - I couldn't do all that you do even if I wanted to!

I echo other replies - it sounds like you need to get him to read your

original mail.

Working from home is particularly difficult, I think, because its harder to

draw boundaries. When DD was younger, I worked pt at a day job, and pt at

home and tried to take all the childcare/household responsibility too. I

earnt peanuts from my work at home (was an artist), and most of my income

just paid the childcare... DH probably would have done much more, but I

felt I should manage it - but it was too much. I was v. depressed. I went

to counselling myself (to sort out lots of stuff, but this was an issue) and

later we both went together for a few sessions - sharing these

responsibilities & dividing tasks was something we covered. After all, if

you're (one is) feeling resentful and exhausted its not going to make for

" happy families " (or great sex / any sex - DH's grumble at that time). It

was really useful, I'd recommend it.

Some things we changed almost immediately, some things have taken longer.

Our circumstances changing made a huge difference - we both retrained to do

different jobs - DH went back to Uni for a year, during which time I worked

in a v straightforward ft 9-5 (& longer) job - it was a complete reversal,

as he was doing a lot of work from home, and on a grant & loan, and I was

earning a decent amount of money. In that time, he took over dropping off /

picking up DD. He was always v good with her, but their relationship is

completely different since then, as he took on the " peripheral " stuff like

childcare arrangements, dentist & doctor visits, school meetings, weekend

timetables, shopping, washing etc. After his course, when we were both

working, things remained shared far more equally.

Now I'm on maternity leave w. Lucas (5 wks) - I can't believe the difference

between the two times; he just phoned and told me - get more sleep, don't

worry about anything " housey " , he'll take DD shopping when he gets home...

wow! & he gives a bottle of (expressed) milk in the nights so I get some

hours of uninterrupted sleep (& I do wake him for this, if nec.). Surprise,

surprise, I'm not depressed...

As to the housework - I really notice chaos & dirt, he doesn't - we finally

got a cleaner when I was 7 mnths pg - it makes such a difference, I think

that will be a permanent solution.

Anyway, that's our example - HTH. I think may be the reason the problem's

so common is that we're from a generation with SAHM's & so-called

" traditional " gender roles are so deeply ingrained - it was the case with

us. Also, the values we attach to the different roles & the fact that one

is so easy to value more highly because its translated directly from

financial income (& its just not true that its harder / more draining - when

I got that ft job I had an absolute ball (hanging out w. grownups all day,

seeing visible, immediate results from my work, having my needs legitimised

by a HR dept *&* getting paid... - big up-sides!)

TTFN,

Siobhan

[Guest guest]

speaking as a dh myself...

dw and I are expecting our first child imminently so I am hardly speaking from a

wealth of experience but three things occur to me:

whether both parties have spent any time as primary carer or not seems to be

crucial. The idea of being solely responsible for a baby (just one!) scares the

cr*p out of both dw and I. However as dw is going to be the primary, at home,

carer intially she will quickly build up practical experience which I will take

much longer to do (working ft). I anticipate the danger of a vicious circle

where I feel increasingly intimidated by the task as dw gets better at it. The

impact that several people have mentioned of dh taking on the primary care role

(or a larger portion of it) for a period seems to underline this point.

Several people mentioned relative earnings and related their earnings to the

cost of childcare. This seems a bogus point to me. Speaking personally, I earn

more than dw and this is a factor in her taking on the primary carer role. The

reasons for this are a combination of factors but one of them is that there are

still huge gender pay differentials. I don't see that whose pay-check the money

comes from should imply any extra priviledge or control rights in the

relationship. There is income in common and outgoings in common (for the most

part). Imagine the creation of an internal market where childcare (by dw) costs

are recharged to the family budget at a market rate. If anyone is subsidising a

relationship (and identifying this in purely financial terms slightly misses

the point) then it is often a SAH carer.

Communication. There are broad patterns in gender behaviour and perceptions.

My mother went through a kind of feminist epiphany that resulted in her learning

to challenge behaviour that she disliked in my father and to say what upset her

or what needed to be changed. They didn't have a bad marriage before but they

had a vastly improved relationship afterwards. All the behaviour didn't change,

but the way my mother reacted to it did. Your original post was a good one and

I would give some strong thought to showing it to your dh. It may well make him

feel hurt or defensive but it could form a foundation for helping explain that

there is a more fundamental change and it is not just about *this* or *that* job

james

[Guest guest]

Good heavens Karina - are you married to my DH?. I probably could have

written most of that word for word! In the early days in our

relationship we had a very equal division of tasks - cooking, shopping

etc, and over the past 7 years or so ( ie since the DS's were born) it

has got less and less equal. It was one of the reasons I gave up work as

I working 3 full days, getting 3 children breakfasted, dressed and off

to nursery/before school club, doing all the pick-ups, teas etc etc with

no input at all from him. I now feel like I never get a break as

although he works hard, and I'm not disputing that, when he comes home

he sits down, has a cup of tea (usually made by muggins here) watches

the channel 4 news, tells the boys to be quiet because he's watching the

news. He will do baths (if home in time), and second round of stories

cunning children have upped the bedtime story ante to one each from me,

followed by one each from him). For me the evenings are a long round of

bedtimes, cooking our evening meal, clearing up, sorting out stuff for

the next day need I go on? He is actually a very good cook, but I can't

remember when he last cooked a meal even though he had a fortnight at

home when the boys broke up - he had a nice relaxing break from work,

life went on for me.

I took the boys up to the Northumberland coast with my mum for 5 days,

and left him at home ( he was working) he ran out of milk twice, and

hadn't run the dishwasher once ( very smelly). Dirty socks and

underpants just get dumped on the floor, I tried leaving them, he

noticed he was running out of socks so he ordered another 10 pairs from

next!! I surrender - arguing about it only upsets me, we never get

anywhere, and I have finally managed to negotiate a cleaner. I wish I

had a solution to this, as it's more or less his only blackspot - he

responds to comments about it with things like, you should try living

with someone really awful.

Curran

Mum to 4 boys. Baby with an awful bug and rash, mummy with something

similar and no sleep at all last night, and still up at 6 with the 3

year old. Co-Chair, MVA, Valley cushion agent, homebirth support and

booking clerk Selby Rural NCT

Region 7 Secretary

[Guest guest]

I'll leave the reactions on the *content* to others, my only comment

is: I didn't know we had men on this list! We talk about a lot of

private girly things like periods, hysterctomies, sanitary towels; I

thought this was a women's only forum? Isn't this why the moderators

ask us to have our own email addresses rather than coming in through

our DH's address, so that we can have privacy and not have our

partners reading this?

Not dissing you personally, , you wrote a very sensible posting,

it's just the idea that this forum is open to husbands too...or am I

being too sensitive? Shoot me down in flames if you want!

Ruthie (who is used to being shot down anyway).

> speaking as a dh myself...

>

> dw and I are expecting our first child imminently so I am hardly

speaking from a wealth of experience but three things occur to me:

>

> whether both parties have spent any time as primary carer or not

seems to be crucial. The idea of being solely responsible for a baby

(just one!) scares the cr*p out of both dw and I. However as dw is

going to be the primary, at home, carer intially she will quickly

build up practical experience which I will take much longer to do

(working ft). I anticipate the danger of a vicious circle where I

feel increasingly intimidated by the task as dw gets better at it.

The impact that several people have mentioned of dh taking on the

primary care role (or a larger portion of it) for a period seems to

underline this point.

>

> Several people mentioned relative earnings and related their

earnings to the cost of childcare. This seems a bogus point to me.

Speaking personally, I earn more than dw and this is a factor in her

taking on the primary carer role. The reasons for this are a

combination of factors but one of them is that there are still huge

gender pay differentials. I don't see that whose pay-check the money

comes from should imply any extra priviledge or control rights in the

relationship. There is income in common and outgoings in common (for

the most part). Imagine the creation of an internal market where

childcare (by dw) costs are recharged to the family budget at a

market rate. If anyone is subsidising a relationship (and

identifying this in purely financial terms slightly misses the

point) then it is often a SAH carer.

>

> Communication. There are broad patterns in gender behaviour and

perceptions. My mother went through a kind of feminist epiphany that

resulted in her learning to challenge behaviour that she disliked in

my father and to say what upset her or what needed to be changed.

They didn't have a bad marriage before but they had a vastly improved

relationship afterwards. All the behaviour didn't change, but the

way my mother reacted to it did. Your original post was a good one

and I would give some strong thought to showing it to your dh. It

may well make him feel hurt or defensive but it could form a

foundation for helping explain that there is a more fundamental

change and it is not just about *this* or *that* job

>

> james

>

[Guest guest]

I'll leave the reactions on the *content* to others, my only comment

is: I didn't know we had men on this list! We talk about a lot of

private girly things like periods, hysterctomies, sanitary towels; I

thought this was a women's only forum? Isn't this why the moderators

ask us to have our own email addresses rather than coming in through

our DH's address, so that we can have privacy and not have our

partners reading this?

Not dissing you personally, , you wrote a very sensible posting,

it's just the idea that this forum is open to husbands too...or am I

being too sensitive? Shoot me down in flames if you want!

Ruthie (who is used to being shot down anyway).

> speaking as a dh myself...

>

> dw and I are expecting our first child imminently so I am hardly

speaking from a wealth of experience but three things occur to me:

>

> whether both parties have spent any time as primary carer or not

seems to be crucial. The idea of being solely responsible for a baby

(just one!) scares the cr*p out of both dw and I. However as dw is

going to be the primary, at home, carer intially she will quickly

build up practical experience which I will take much longer to do

(working ft). I anticipate the danger of a vicious circle where I

feel increasingly intimidated by the task as dw gets better at it.

The impact that several people have mentioned of dh taking on the

primary care role (or a larger portion of it) for a period seems to

underline this point.

>

> Several people mentioned relative earnings and related their

earnings to the cost of childcare. This seems a bogus point to me.

Speaking personally, I earn more than dw and this is a factor in her

taking on the primary carer role. The reasons for this are a

combination of factors but one of them is that there are still huge

gender pay differentials. I don't see that whose pay-check the money

comes from should imply any extra priviledge or control rights in the

relationship. There is income in common and outgoings in common (for

the most part). Imagine the creation of an internal market where

childcare (by dw) costs are recharged to the family budget at a

market rate. If anyone is subsidising a relationship (and

identifying this in purely financial terms slightly misses the

point) then it is often a SAH carer.

>

> Communication. There are broad patterns in gender behaviour and

perceptions. My mother went through a kind of feminist epiphany that

resulted in her learning to challenge behaviour that she disliked in

my father and to say what upset her or what needed to be changed.

They didn't have a bad marriage before but they had a vastly improved

relationship afterwards. All the behaviour didn't change, but the

way my mother reacted to it did. Your original post was a good one

and I would give some strong thought to showing it to your dh. It

may well make him feel hurt or defensive but it could form a

foundation for helping explain that there is a more fundamental

change and it is not just about *this* or *that* job

>

> james

>

[Guest guest]

> I took the boys up to the Northumberland coast with my mum for 5 days

And why didn't you visit me?

Lynda

SAHM to (8), (6), Fraser (3), Callum (15/5/00)

Newsletter editor, Mid-Northumberland Branch

Area Rep, Region 7

www.familygarland.co.uk

[Guest guest]

Just as an NCT coffee morning is open to both men and women so is this list.

We had 'Nick the Nanny' and several other male contributors in the time this

list has been up and running. There is nothing at the NCT-Coffee page on the

website to suggest that this is an all female group, although as with real

life coffee groups the majority of contributors do tend to be women.

I am not aware of the moderators asking people to have their own email

address (as a moderator I was stephen.dick@ for ages until I realised that I

got far more mail than he did and that I ought to do something about it). It

may have been suggested in the past as a way of avoiding confusion.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

Co-moderator

> I didn't know we had men on this list! ...... Isn't this why the

> moderators

> ask us to have our own email addresses rather than coming in through

> our DH's address, so that we can have privacy and not have our

> partners reading this?

[Guest guest]

Just as an NCT coffee morning is open to both men and women so is this list.

We had 'Nick the Nanny' and several other male contributors in the time this

list has been up and running. There is nothing at the NCT-Coffee page on the

website to suggest that this is an all female group, although as with real

life coffee groups the majority of contributors do tend to be women.

I am not aware of the moderators asking people to have their own email

address (as a moderator I was stephen.dick@ for ages until I realised that I

got far more mail than he did and that I ought to do something about it). It

may have been suggested in the past as a way of avoiding confusion.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

Co-moderator

> I didn't know we had men on this list! ...... Isn't this why the

> moderators

> ask us to have our own email addresses rather than coming in through

> our DH's address, so that we can have privacy and not have our

> partners reading this?

[Guest guest]

<

>

OH my dh does this and it drives me NUTS.. he will get his shoes on then I

am strapping girls into the car and he is closing the door I am going

WAIT... the changing bag their drinks (not to mention my shoes) and

generally I need to go to the toilet as well (pg thing lol) but that really

gets up my nose and most trips out start with me shouting at him for closing

the door.. I have noticed recently that he has started asking if I am done

before closing and locking the door.. this is a little better so I am

holding out hope that when we get to this third one he might actually think

about drinks and changing bag to ;o)..

Lonnie Phoebe & Eloisa's mama

& expecting a Christmas delivery...

My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what

you start.

So far today, I have finished 2 bags of chips and a Chocolate cake.

I feel better already.

[Guest guest]

> Not dissing you personally, , you wrote a very sensible posting,

> it's just the idea that this forum is open to husbands too...or am I

> being too sensitive? Shoot me down in flames if you want!

>

>

How can we hope for equality if we're not prepared to share experience of

parenting w. men? ... I know some of the postings are definitely on the

gynae side - after all, most of the reproductive bodily functions are

ours - but any men legitimately part of the list are likely to be involved

w. that side of life to the extent of attending the birth, supporting bf -

hardly insensitive lager louts. I reckon its good to have a balance. And

what about SAHD's - they're an increasing minority, I'm surprised they don't

seem to be represented here..

Having said that - I haven't posted anything about myself particularly

sensitive - so may be its easy for me to hold this opinion. Interested in

others views.... :-)

Siobhan

[Guest guest]

> Not dissing you personally, , you wrote a very sensible posting,

> it's just the idea that this forum is open to husbands too...or am I

> being too sensitive? Shoot me down in flames if you want!

>

>

How can we hope for equality if we're not prepared to share experience of

parenting w. men? ... I know some of the postings are definitely on the

gynae side - after all, most of the reproductive bodily functions are

ours - but any men legitimately part of the list are likely to be involved

w. that side of life to the extent of attending the birth, supporting bf -

hardly insensitive lager louts. I reckon its good to have a balance. And

what about SAHD's - they're an increasing minority, I'm surprised they don't

seem to be represented here..

Having said that - I haven't posted anything about myself particularly

sensitive - so may be its easy for me to hold this opinion. Interested in

others views.... :-)

Siobhan