Re: British education system

June 19, 2001

----- Original Message -----

From: Phyllis

>

> For example, college is where you go to study for A levels,

> isn't it? And D and E are not good marks for A levels, I

> suppose (we just have A, B, C, D, and F in the US)

> ----Speaking as a D grader no they are not really ! I did A levels at

sixth form college, some sixth forms are in secondary schools - confusing I

know !

> And this bit here :

>

> « Expected Degree Classification : 2:2 »

> « BSc. Computer Science (Hons) - Year 2 »

--------It might be a bit different since I went to Uni but -

1st = First class honours

2:1 = Upper second class honours

2;2 = Lower second class honours

3rd = Third class honours (the lowest marks you can get and still achieve an

honours degree)

The only thing (I think ) bellow a 3rd is an Ordinary Degree which is still

a degree qualification but you are not allowed to use the *Hons* bit

>

> Some courses start to count towards your final degree classification in

the second year hence ---Expected degree..... Year 2....

Does this make sense (it's nearly my bedtime)?

Hilary

> __________________________________________________

>

June 19, 2001

In article 20010619191657.10472.qmail@...>, Phyllis

Laatsch Wilke plaatsch@...> writes

>For example, college is where you go to study for A levels,

>isnt it? And D and E are not good marks for A levels, I

>suppose (we just have A, B, C, D, and F in the US)

You can do A levels at school, or at a 6th form college, or at a further

education college.

A level grades A,B,C,D & E are all pass grades. I think that below that

comes F and U (unclassified), but I'm not absolutely sure about that.

>And this bit here :

>

> Expected Degree Classification : 2:2

> BSc. Computer Science (Hons) - Year 2

>

>I still dont know what 2:2 means, in spite of all of you

>talking about Thoras, etc and (Hons) would be a special

>honours program?

In most universities, degrees are graded 1, 2:1, 2:2 and 3, known as a

first, a two:one, a two:two, and a third. A first is the highest. These

are all honours degree classifications, BTW. Most first degree (BA/BSc)

courses in the UK are honours courses as a matter of course, rather than

a special programme.

Cath

June 19, 2001

In article 20010619191657.10472.qmail@...>, Phyllis

Laatsch Wilke plaatsch@...> writes

>For example, college is where you go to study for A levels,

>isnt it? And D and E are not good marks for A levels, I

>suppose (we just have A, B, C, D, and F in the US)

You can do A levels at school, or at a 6th form college, or at a further

education college.

A level grades A,B,C,D & E are all pass grades. I think that below that

comes F and U (unclassified), but I'm not absolutely sure about that.

>And this bit here :

>

> Expected Degree Classification : 2:2

> BSc. Computer Science (Hons) - Year 2

>

>I still dont know what 2:2 means, in spite of all of you

>talking about Thoras, etc and (Hons) would be a special

>honours program?

In most universities, degrees are graded 1, 2:1, 2:2 and 3, known as a

first, a two:one, a two:two, and a third. A first is the highest. These

are all honours degree classifications, BTW. Most first degree (BA/BSc)

courses in the UK are honours courses as a matter of course, rather than

a special programme.

Cath

June 19, 2001

> 3rd = Third class honours (the lowest marks you can get and

still achieve an

> honours degree)

> The only thing (I think ) bellow a 3rd is an Ordinary Degree

which is still

> a degree qualification but you are not allowed to use the

*Hons* bit

Don't rub it in will you?

Caroline

3rd BA(Hons) Knitwear Design

June 19, 2001

> 3rd = Third class honours (the lowest marks you can get and

still achieve an

> honours degree)

> The only thing (I think ) bellow a 3rd is an Ordinary Degree

which is still

> a degree qualification but you are not allowed to use the

*Hons* bit

Don't rub it in will you?

Caroline

3rd BA(Hons) Knitwear Design

June 19, 2001

>In England, compulsory education goes up to age 16, culminating in GCSEs.

> You get credit for any tiny bit of achievement, but the 'diploma' standard

>(in US speak), would be passing 5 GCSEs at grades A to C. You can follow

>up GSCEs by studying for either A-levels (academic), or GNVQs (vocational)

>in further education.

>

>You'd study for A-levels or GNVQs at a sixth-form college, or in the sixth

>form at high school. It's the same years as grades 11 & 12 in Ohio. D & E

>grades are passes. and still contribute towards university entrance, where

>they use a points system (so many points for A, B etc), but it's not good

>to get a D in a subject you want to make a career of.

Just a caveat that 'college' is a bit of a vague term - can mean

further education, can mean a university. I usually say university

when that is what I mean, but I sense that some people see that as

being a bit sort of snobbily specific and say 'college' when they

mean post-school, often meaning when they want away from home, but

university is included in their definition. Come to think of it, even

School in an institutional title can be misleading ie London School

of Economics, School of oriental and African Studies...and

institutions of higher education divide themselves into faculties and

then subdivide into schools (eg Faculty of Medicine, School of

Nursing)

>

>In my day, the biggest band was 2:2; I think with dilution of degrees, 2:1

>may be more average now. The 2nd year prediction is just saying that if

>this student performs at the same level in the final year, they'd

>anticipate he'd get a 2:2. I think other than that it is fairly

>meaningless, as degree courses are usually pass/fail each year and you

>start the following year with a clean slate.

Ooh no, that varies a lot - some courses count everything (which is

why DH has a 2:1 and not a First - best not to talk about that),

others do have only the final year count (though I think this is

getting less common)

Plus there is a wide variation in how they are awarded. When I was at

Manchester, they hadn't given a First in Law for 10 years - but my

Dad said that at the time loads of his mates were doing law at a

number of the London university colleges, any of them who did any

work got Firsts (or was that 'cos they were all policemen?).

>Honours if fairly standard.

> The final year is the honours year. When you pass the penultimate year,

>you have done enough to get and Ordinary degree, and you can take that and

>run if you like. If you do a final year but fail, they will give you the

>Ordinary; if you pass you get the Honours. I think Ordinary degrees are

>looked upon as failures, unless there are extenuating circumstances (eg

>switching to a different major in the honours year).

>HTH!

>Joyce

When I did the BNurs it only came in distinction, pass and fail

flavours - because that is how degrees in medicine were awarded - but

by Emma's time there, they'd caved in and gone over to honours (They

would explain to prospective employers and to you what your

equivalent in Honours would be - I never dared to ask and just went

off and got an Open University classified Honours degree as a way of

finding out what I was worth :-)))))) Even before honours everything

counted on the BNurs - one of my best friends didn't get a

distinction despite being stunningly good (put it like this, they

told him that if his dissertation had been entered for a PhD he would

have got it) because he only scraped through first year physiology.

On the other hand my brother who has serious issues with essay

completion (not idleness - he used to come over and sit for days in

my front room filling it with screwed up paper) and failed his degree

(he couldn't bring himself to tell them about his problems) was given

permission to resit for a Pass degree the following year. His crony

who cried in the office was given a Third (see, big boys really

should cry!)

A bit of a minefield to say the least! DH, who used to be in a

position to recruit programmers himself and used to get truckloads of

CVs from recruitment agencies who seemed incapable of performing any

kind of filtering operation (which are now very handy for scribbling

material for DSs), used to have some very rigid criteria - and was

often only really comfortable employing people who had been to

Warwick because he had a much better of how they measured up because

he'd been there and had an ongoing contact with them.

All a bit of a minefield I am afraid.

--

jennifer@...

Vaudin

June 19, 2001

I have a very good friend who managed to get a 'Pass' degree apparently it

has the narrowest banding of any degree class (a couple of marks). Hasn't

done him any harm - his *bonus* last year was (are you sitting down) £265K!

http://www.foxstitch.co.uk/

Caroline Pearce wrote:

>

> > The only thing (I think ) bellow a 3rd is an Ordinary Degree

> which is still

> > a degree qualification but you are not allowed to use the

> *Hons* bit

>

> Don't rub it in will you?

> Caroline

> 3rd BA(Hons) Knitwear Design

June 19, 2001

> My DH is a programmer and started his own company a couple

> of years ago. Right now, he is looking for a programmer and

> has gotten a couple of CV's.

Grae always says that it's more important to talk to the people to

suss out their knowledge but to be wary of the bluster and bull that

tends to go round the IT industry.

But that's probably because he has a masters in

chrononeuropsychopharmacology, studied wolves as part of his uni

stuff, always wanted to work with animals and is now a manufacturing

IT consultant having worked in IT for the past 8 years. The closest

he came to using his psych stuff was when he was approached about a

job writing a comp prog to find the ideal air traffic controller.

--

Sue

June 20, 2001

In message 20010619191657.10472.qmail@...>, Phyllis

Laatsch Wilke plaatsch@...> writes

>For example, college is where you go to study for A levels,

>isnt it?

On the nail - but also where many now do degree level quals like HND and

HNC (and some offer the first year or two of a degree which you then

move to the uni to finish)

>And D and E are not good marks for A levels, I

>suppose (we just have A, B, C, D, and F in the US)

It entirely depends on the subjects and when they were taken. A lot of

people know what grades they need for uni by the point they take their

A's and only work enough to get those - so no real reflection on how

competent they are. Likewise - those with A's and B's may have stayed

home every night to study and then gone mad at uni...

>And this bit here :

>

> Expected Degree Classification : 2:2

> BSc. Computer Science (Hons) - Year 2

>

>I still dont know what 2:2 means, in spite of all of you

>talking about Thoras, etc and (Hons) would be a special

>honours program?

A 2:2 simply means that they achieved the mark laid down by their uni

for a 2:2. For some institutions it means they gained a consistent 50%

for others (like where I went (UWE) or the Open U.) you will have pulled

down steady 70% marks.

(Hons) means that you wrote a dissertation or had a significant written

input - not simply based your degree on lab (type) work and the final

exams. Usually (again dependent on uni and course chosen) worth between

10 and 50 % of course.

If I was recruiting I'd expect a 2:2 to be able to demonstrate that

they'd used their time wisely, and had other (prehaps more work

friendly) experience. But I'd take the degree as evidence of the

ability to learn, rather than an indication of knowledge... and I'd look

at where they had studied.

HTH

--

Helen Armfield

helen@...

June 20, 2001

> Ooh no, that varies a lot - some courses count everything (which is

> why DH has a 2:1 and not a First - best not to talk about that),

> others do have only the final year count (though I think this is

> getting less common)

I think it is getting less and less common to have 'finals' that make

up your whole mark. I graduated 3 years ago from LSE and my third year

exams only counted for about 40-45% of my final mark. The first year

counted a bit and the second and third year carried equal weighting.

This seemed to be similar to my friends in other universities.

So predictions for final results may be more accurate than they used

to be.

And why oh why do universities have such silly names? I am going to

the London school of hygiene & tropical medicine next year to do a

Masters and am bored of explaining that I'm neither a medic nor going

to study tropical medicine!

June 20, 2001

> Ooh no, that varies a lot - some courses count everything (which is

> why DH has a 2:1 and not a First - best not to talk about that),

> others do have only the final year count (though I think this is

> getting less common)

I think it is getting less and less common to have 'finals' that make

up your whole mark. I graduated 3 years ago from LSE and my third year

exams only counted for about 40-45% of my final mark. The first year

counted a bit and the second and third year carried equal weighting.

This seemed to be similar to my friends in other universities.

So predictions for final results may be more accurate than they used

to be.

And why oh why do universities have such silly names? I am going to

the London school of hygiene & tropical medicine next year to do a

Masters and am bored of explaining that I'm neither a medic nor going

to study tropical medicine!

June 20, 2001

> Ooh no, that varies a lot - some courses count everything (which is

> why DH has a 2:1 and not a First - best not to talk about that),

> others do have only the final year count (though I think this is

> getting less common)

I think it is getting less and less common to have 'finals' that make

up your whole mark. I graduated 3 years ago from LSE and my third year

exams only counted for about 40-45% of my final mark. The first year

counted a bit and the second and third year carried equal weighting.

This seemed to be similar to my friends in other universities.

So predictions for final results may be more accurate than they used

to be.

And why oh why do universities have such silly names? I am going to

the London school of hygiene & tropical medicine next year to do a

Masters and am bored of explaining that I'm neither a medic nor going

to study tropical medicine!

June 20, 2001

Re: British education system

>

> > The only thing (I think ) bellow a 3rd is an Ordinary Degree

> which is still

> > a degree qualification but you are not allowed to use the

> *Hons* bit

>

> Don't rub it in will you?

> Caroline

> 3rd BA(Hons) Knitwear Design

>

> -----------------------

Well I did tell you I only got Ds at A Level !!!!!!

I was working over the summer the results came out and was teased

mercilessly at work 'how are your Ds today' etc!

Hilary

(I won't rub it in any further by telling you mine- it sounds good but after

a career change and 2 children it is about as much use as a chocolate tea

pot!)

>

> Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee

>

> Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

>

June 20, 2001

Re: British education system

>

> > The only thing (I think ) bellow a 3rd is an Ordinary Degree

> which is still

> > a degree qualification but you are not allowed to use the

> *Hons* bit

>

> Don't rub it in will you?

> Caroline

> 3rd BA(Hons) Knitwear Design

>

> -----------------------

Well I did tell you I only got Ds at A Level !!!!!!

I was working over the summer the results came out and was teased

mercilessly at work 'how are your Ds today' etc!

Hilary

(I won't rub it in any further by telling you mine- it sounds good but after

a career change and 2 children it is about as much use as a chocolate tea

pot!)

>

> Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee

>

> Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

>

June 20, 2001

Re: British education system

>

> > The only thing (I think ) bellow a 3rd is an Ordinary Degree

> which is still

> > a degree qualification but you are not allowed to use the

> *Hons* bit

>

> Don't rub it in will you?

> Caroline

> 3rd BA(Hons) Knitwear Design

>

> -----------------------

Well I did tell you I only got Ds at A Level !!!!!!

I was working over the summer the results came out and was teased

mercilessly at work 'how are your Ds today' etc!

Hilary

(I won't rub it in any further by telling you mine- it sounds good but after

a career change and 2 children it is about as much use as a chocolate tea

pot!)

>

> Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee

>

> Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

>

June 20, 2001

Phyllis,

I'm a programmer - would he like me? I could baffle him with my Irish

qualifications! Hehehe )))

> My DH is a programmer and started his own company a couple

> of years ago. Right now, he is looking for a programmer and

> has gotten a couple of CVs. The problem is that he is now

> asking *me* what the school things mean and Im really not

> sure.

June 20, 2001

Thanks to all who added to the explanations. I mostly

understand it now When I explained a little to him, my

DH wasn’t too impressed that the first CV he got for a

programmer was for this guy who got an E in maths at his

A-levels. Computing and maths are generally related, after

all.

>some courses count everything (which is why DH has a 2:1

and not a First - best not to talk >about that), others do

have only the final year count (though I think this is

getting less >common)

This is how it’s generally done in the US -- you count

everything over all the years. Usually, they count each A

as 4 points, B is 3, C is 2, D is 1, F is 0, multiply each

mark by the credit hours, then divide by total hours. Some

are more complicated and factor in the + and - (A is 4, A-

is 3.7, B+ is 3.3, B is 3, etc)

That sounds more confusing than it is. An illustration for

one semester:

A in Calculus, 5 hours (4x5 = 20)

B in Biology (w/ lab), 6 hours (3x6 = 18)

C in Literature, 5 hours (2x5 = 10)

A in trumpet lessons, 1 hour (4x1 = 4)

52 total points / 17 total hours = 3.06 Grade Point Average

(GPA)

Most universities require you to take a lot of classes

outside of your major, so if you do poorly in literature,

but your major is math, you would put on your CV the total

GPA, then the GPA in your major.

Honors are based on your final GPA. Then there are honor

societies with Latin letters for their names, some for

overall work, some for work within a major. Last of all are

fraternities and sororities, which are social clubs and

usually have nothing to do with coursework, except as the

reason you flunked out because you were out drinking with

your new friends, but those have Latin letters for their

names as well.

There’s also the more recent problem of ‘grade inflation’

where everyone expects an A for everything and writes

letters to complain if they get anything else.

Plus, college always means university. Even if yours is

called a university, you would still say ‘I went to

college.’

Phyllis

B.A. French (minor in History), Hiram College, Hiram, OH,

GPA 3.8, summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa

M.A. French Studies, American University, Washington, DC,

GPA 3.6 (-ish)

__________________________________________________

June 20, 2001

THanks for the rundown on the American system - I needed that!

I don't think I'll ever get used to the school systems and educational

culture here though. We have just survived the Fourth Grade Proficiency,

with ds passing all five subjects, and getting advanced proficiency on

three of them. Not bad for a 9 year old (his classmates are 10 and 11).

Joyce

--------

This is how it's generally done in the US -- you count

everything over all the years. Usually, they count each A

as 4 points, B is 3, C is 2, D is 1, F is 0, multiply each

mark by the credit hours, then divide by total hours. Some

are more complicated and factor in the + and - (A is 4, A-

is 3.7, B+ is 3.3, B is 3, etc)

That sounds more confusing than it is. An illustration for

one semester:

A in Calculus, 5 hours (4x5 = 20)

B in Biology (w/ lab), 6 hours (3x6 = 18)

C in Literature, 5 hours (2x5 = 10)

A in trumpet lessons, 1 hour (4x1 = 4)

52 total points / 17 total hours = 3.06 Grade Point Average

(GPA)

Most universities require you to take a lot of classes

outside of your major, so if you do poorly in literature,

but your major is math, you would put on your CV the total

GPA, then the GPA in your major.

Honors are based on your final GPA. Then there are honor

societies with Latin letters for their names, some for

overall work, some for work within a major. Last of all are

fraternities and sororities, which are social clubs and

usually have nothing to do with coursework, except as the

reason you flunked out because you were out drinking with

your new friends, but those have Latin letters for their

names as well.

There's also the more recent problem of 'grade inflation'

where everyone expects an A for everything and writes

letters to complain if they get anything else.

Plus, college always means university. Even if yours is

called a university, you would still say 'I went to

college.'

Phyllis

B.A. French (minor in History), Hiram College, Hiram, OH,

GPA 3.8, summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa

M.A. French Studies, American University, Washington, DC,

GPA 3.6 (-ish)

June 20, 2001

So working on the American system what would be a good GPA and what would be an

outstanding one?

Joanne King

SAHM to Ethan - HB 29.06.00

Minute Secretary Colchester & District

June 20, 2001

> So working on the American system what would be a good GPA and what

would be an outstanding one?

>

> Joanne King

Well 4.0 is perfect A's, 3.0 is a B average - which is getting to be

more the real average with grade inflation, though 2.0 is what is

'supposed to' be average. So, 3.0 would be good and anything above

would be very good. Anything below can have a good explanation (like

they partied a lot for the first 2 or 3 years of their college career

and then got all A's for the last year).

Phyllis

June 24, 2001

Sorry, Helen, your statement about what an Honours degree is is just plain

wrong! I can quote you counterexamples by the thousand! There are

practically no courses that set out to give you a pass degree - if your

degree isn't honours, it usually means that you did pretty badly! I would

also state categorically that Phyllis is correct, and D and E are NOT good

grades for A levels.

I WOULD agree that the respect accorded to a degree depends wholly on the

place that awarded it and its subject, though!

Anneliese (semi SAHM to Tim, 18/8/99)

Re: British education system

In message 20010619191657.10472.qmail@...>, Phyllis

Laatsch Wilke plaatsch@...> writes

>For example, college is where you go to study for A levels,

>isnt it?

On the nail - but also where many now do degree level quals like HND and

HNC (and some offer the first year or two of a degree which you then

move to the uni to finish)

>And D and E are not good marks for A levels, I

>suppose (we just have A, B, C, D, and F in the US)

It entirely depends on the subjects and when they were taken. A lot of

people know what grades they need for uni by the point they take their

A's and only work enough to get those - so no real reflection on how

competent they are. Likewise - those with A's and B's may have stayed

home every night to study and then gone mad at uni...

>And this bit here :

>

> Expected Degree Classification : 2:2

> BSc. Computer Science (Hons) - Year 2

>

>I still dont know what 2:2 means, in spite of all of you

>talking about Thoras, etc and (Hons) would be a special

>honours program?

A 2:2 simply means that they achieved the mark laid down by their uni

for a 2:2. For some institutions it means they gained a consistent 50%

for others (like where I went (UWE) or the Open U.) you will have pulled

down steady 70% marks.

(Hons) means that you wrote a dissertation or had a significant written

input - not simply based your degree on lab (type) work and the final

exams. Usually (again dependent on uni and course chosen) worth between

10 and 50 % of course.

If I was recruiting I'd expect a 2:2 to be able to demonstrate that

they'd used their time wisely, and had other (prehaps more work

friendly) experience. But I'd take the degree as evidence of the

ability to learn, rather than an indication of knowledge... and I'd look

at where they had studied.

HTH

--

Helen Armfield

helen@...

June 24, 2001

Sorry, Helen, your statement about what an Honours degree is is just plain

wrong! I can quote you counterexamples by the thousand! There are

practically no courses that set out to give you a pass degree - if your

degree isn't honours, it usually means that you did pretty badly! I would

also state categorically that Phyllis is correct, and D and E are NOT good

grades for A levels.

I WOULD agree that the respect accorded to a degree depends wholly on the

place that awarded it and its subject, though!

Anneliese (semi SAHM to Tim, 18/8/99)

Re: British education system

In message 20010619191657.10472.qmail@...>, Phyllis

Laatsch Wilke plaatsch@...> writes

>For example, college is where you go to study for A levels,

>isnt it?

On the nail - but also where many now do degree level quals like HND and

HNC (and some offer the first year or two of a degree which you then

move to the uni to finish)

>And D and E are not good marks for A levels, I

>suppose (we just have A, B, C, D, and F in the US)

It entirely depends on the subjects and when they were taken. A lot of

people know what grades they need for uni by the point they take their

A's and only work enough to get those - so no real reflection on how

competent they are. Likewise - those with A's and B's may have stayed

home every night to study and then gone mad at uni...

>And this bit here :

>

> Expected Degree Classification : 2:2

> BSc. Computer Science (Hons) - Year 2

>

>I still dont know what 2:2 means, in spite of all of you

>talking about Thoras, etc and (Hons) would be a special

>honours program?

A 2:2 simply means that they achieved the mark laid down by their uni

for a 2:2. For some institutions it means they gained a consistent 50%

for others (like where I went (UWE) or the Open U.) you will have pulled

down steady 70% marks.

(Hons) means that you wrote a dissertation or had a significant written

input - not simply based your degree on lab (type) work and the final

exams. Usually (again dependent on uni and course chosen) worth between

10 and 50 % of course.

If I was recruiting I'd expect a 2:2 to be able to demonstrate that

they'd used their time wisely, and had other (prehaps more work

friendly) experience. But I'd take the degree as evidence of the

ability to learn, rather than an indication of knowledge... and I'd look

at where they had studied.

HTH

--

Helen Armfield

helen@...

June 24, 2001

Sorry, Helen, your statement about what an Honours degree is is just plain

wrong! I can quote you counterexamples by the thousand! There are

practically no courses that set out to give you a pass degree - if your

degree isn't honours, it usually means that you did pretty badly! I would

also state categorically that Phyllis is correct, and D and E are NOT good

grades for A levels.

I WOULD agree that the respect accorded to a degree depends wholly on the

place that awarded it and its subject, though!

Anneliese (semi SAHM to Tim, 18/8/99)

Re: British education system

In message 20010619191657.10472.qmail@...>, Phyllis

Laatsch Wilke plaatsch@...> writes

>For example, college is where you go to study for A levels,

>isnt it?

On the nail - but also where many now do degree level quals like HND and

HNC (and some offer the first year or two of a degree which you then

move to the uni to finish)

>And D and E are not good marks for A levels, I

>suppose (we just have A, B, C, D, and F in the US)

It entirely depends on the subjects and when they were taken. A lot of

people know what grades they need for uni by the point they take their

A's and only work enough to get those - so no real reflection on how

competent they are. Likewise - those with A's and B's may have stayed

home every night to study and then gone mad at uni...

>And this bit here :

>

> Expected Degree Classification : 2:2

> BSc. Computer Science (Hons) - Year 2

>

>I still dont know what 2:2 means, in spite of all of you

>talking about Thoras, etc and (Hons) would be a special

>honours program?

A 2:2 simply means that they achieved the mark laid down by their uni

for a 2:2. For some institutions it means they gained a consistent 50%

for others (like where I went (UWE) or the Open U.) you will have pulled

down steady 70% marks.

(Hons) means that you wrote a dissertation or had a significant written

input - not simply based your degree on lab (type) work and the final

exams. Usually (again dependent on uni and course chosen) worth between

10 and 50 % of course.

If I was recruiting I'd expect a 2:2 to be able to demonstrate that

they'd used their time wisely, and had other (prehaps more work

friendly) experience. But I'd take the degree as evidence of the

ability to learn, rather than an indication of knowledge... and I'd look

at where they had studied.

HTH

--

Helen Armfield

helen@...

June 26, 2001

>Sorry, Helen, your statement about what an Honours degree is is just plain

>wrong! I can quote you counterexamples by the thousand! There are

>practically no courses that set out to give you a pass degree - if your

>degree isn't honours, it usually means that you did pretty badly!

I think Medical degrees are still 'pass' degrees in most places. And

I think art and design courses operate slightly differently to

others? And the OU until very recently (if it has changed - despite

having just got the undergraduate brochure, I haven't quite fathomed

it out) used to operate on the basis that you got your Pass degree

and then carried on for Honours (and you had to have enough 3rd or

4th level courses to get honours)

But it was because of the perception that if you didn't call it

Honours people would think it was of lower academic worth (both

course and your performance) that the course I did changed over to

Honours (they actually took some things *out* of the course - I still

have to compare notes with Emma on how much or how little similarity

there was between the 'same' degree we did 10 years apart)

--

jennifer@...

Vaudin

June 27, 2001

I thought as soon as I posted this " But the OU is different " - my dad had a

certain no. of credits for being a chartered secretary, and had to do 3 full

credits for his pass degree and another 2 for honours.

I'd forgotten about MBs as well - yes, I think those are pass degrees. At

Oxford you did your MB in 5 terms (or 4 or something) and then did a BA

(Hons) at the end of the 3 years.

And Joyce, there WAS a Rowena reading Physics at St. Hugh's in my time, but

I can't remember/never knew her surname. Quite brash, mousey fair shoulder

length hair, and I think she rowed?

And again, Jan, I banked at Lloyds, so wouldn't have met you!

Anneliese (part-time) SAHM to Baby Tim (18/9/99), member, Alton, Bordon and

district branch