Re: Meat, Butter and Sulfation question

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi,

>

> Why is it that Andy does not include meat, poultry, and fish in the

> high sulfur (thiols) foods as they are very high in sulfur amino

acids?

TK--- they are sulfer foods but the protein is necessary and do not

cause as much problem as the other sulfer foods - they do for some in

which case he suggests BCCA's

>

> Butter and ghee are not on the sulfur food list. Are they OK

(sulfur

> free)as they are primarily fat?

TK--- All Dairy is high sulfer including butter. Don't know about

Ghee as it is clarified butter and may still bother people - you

would need to experiment.

>

> Andy explains that when you have high sulfate you are not

necessarily

> using it and therefore it is building up in the bloodstream. Does

he

> every indicate specifically why it is that you are not using it? Is

> there a dysfunctional enzyme or another mechanism that is not

working

> properly?

>

> He also says that this may indicate an inability to make sulfated

> biomolecules needed in the gut, collagen, etc. Again, has he every

> given more details about this?

>

> I seem to be one of the rare high sulfate people (at least I was on

my

> GDX test a few years back and there's not much information about

this.

>

> Thanks in advance. This group is terrific and am very grateful to

the

> moderators. I've learned a lot.

>

> Lee

>

[Guest guest]

> > Butter and ghee are not on the sulfur food list. Are they OK

> (sulfur

> > free)as they are primarily fat?

>

>

> TK--- All Dairy is high sulfer including butter. Don't know about

> Ghee as it is clarified butter and may still bother people - you

> would need to experiment.

I found the answer to my question in my last reply regarding the

sulfur in butter. Butter contains 2% milk solids, which is protein

and carbohydrates, thus accounting for some sulfur amino acids. Ghee

is free of milk solids, so should be ok.

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi,

>

> Why is it that Andy does not include meat, poultry, and fish in the

> high sulfur (thiols) foods as they are very high in sulfur amino acids?

>

They are high in protein, but not high in sulfur containing amino

acids (cysteine) as compared to the foods on the high sulfur list.

> Butter and ghee are not on the sulfur food list. Are they OK (sulfur

> free)as they are primarily fat?

>

They are mostly fat and therefore contain minuscule amounts of protein

or sulfur (thiols). They are ok if you are following a low sulfur

diet. Some avoid butter for other reasons (and others need butter for

certain reasons).

> Andy explains that when you have high sulfate you are not necessarily

> using it and therefore it is building up in the bloodstream. Does he

> every indicate specifically why it is that you are not using it? Is

> there a dysfunctional enzyme or another mechanism that is not working

> properly?

>

I don't recall him saying exactly why. It makes sense to me that the

pathway is blocked in some way - insufficient enzymes, cofactors,

there could be various possibilities.

> He also says that this may indicate an inability to make sulfated

> biomolecules needed in the gut, collagen, etc. Again, has he every

> given more details about this?

>

I don't recall. The best way to find out would be to use onibasu.com

to search autism mercury archives.

J

> I seem to be one of the rare high sulfate people (at least I was on my

> GDX test a few years back and there's not much information about this.

>

> Thanks in advance. This group is terrific and am very grateful to the

> moderators. I've learned a lot.

>

> Lee

>

[Guest guest]

> > Why is it that Andy does not include meat, poultry, and fish in

the high sulfur (thiols) foods as they are very high in sulfur amino

acids?

>

> They are high in protein, but not high in sulfur containing amino

> acids (cysteine) as compared to the foods on the high sulfur list.

>

Thanks . Your feedback is very helpful. There is just one point

of confusion or perhaps disagreement. My nutritionist tells me that

meat and fish are rich in the sulfur amino acids. She's quite a

research expert and highly knowledgeable about detoxification.

It's interesting that most people on the board don't have a problem

with them. They are a big problem for me in terms of digestion and I

noticed a lot of burning in my legs the last time I tried red meat. I

have to be on a vegetarian diet due to my digestive problems.

Thanks again, Lee

[Guest guest]

> > Why is it that Andy does not include meat, poultry, and fish in

the high sulfur (thiols) foods as they are very high in sulfur amino

acids?

>

> They are high in protein, but not high in sulfur containing amino

> acids (cysteine) as compared to the foods on the high sulfur list.

>

Thanks . Your feedback is very helpful. There is just one point

of confusion or perhaps disagreement. My nutritionist tells me that

meat and fish are rich in the sulfur amino acids. She's quite a

research expert and highly knowledgeable about detoxification.

It's interesting that most people on the board don't have a problem

with them. They are a big problem for me in terms of digestion and I

noticed a lot of burning in my legs the last time I tried red meat. I

have to be on a vegetarian diet due to my digestive problems.

Thanks again, Lee

[Guest guest]

>

> Thanks . Your feedback is very helpful. There is just one point

> of confusion or perhaps disagreement. My nutritionist tells me that

> meat and fish are rich in the sulfur amino acids.

Then she is in disagreement with Andy Cutler. Andy lists meat and

fish in the low sulfur food category. The confusion may be because

meat and fish are definitely high in amino acids.

When I was not able to tolerate high sulfur foods, I had noticeable

reactions to eggs, but no reaction to meats and fish at all.

If you are having problems with foods you can test each one, one at a

time to see if you tolerate it.

She's quite a

> research expert and highly knowledgeable about detoxification.

>

You could ask her for her source of information. I don't know what

Andy's source is, but I do know that he thoroughly investigates before

he makes any claims about anything.

> It's interesting that most people on the board don't have a problem

> with them. They are a big problem for me in terms of digestion and I

> noticed a lot of burning in my legs the last time I tried red meat.

That may be from a different problem. Different people react to

different foods for different reasons. It is fairly difficult and

time consuming to figure out what we can tolerate, and these things

can change with time as well.

I forget what it was about red meat.....

I

> have to be on a vegetarian diet due to my digestive problems.

>

On a vegetarian diet it is important to make sure that you are getting

adequate protein.

I don't like meat, and had a tendency to avoid it. Recently I had to

cut out all starch and sugar, and had to introduce more meat and have

had to use betaine HCl, pepsin, and pancreatic enzymes in order to

help with digestion.

J

> Thanks again, Lee

>

[Guest guest]

>

>Andy lists meat and

> fish in the low sulfur food category. The confusion may be because

> meat and fish are definitely high in amino acids.

, I'm pretty sure the research shows that people with ulcerative

colitis improve when they limit meats (and eggs and dairy) because

they are all rich in the sulfur amino acids, which, when not digested

properly increase the sulfate reducing bacteria in the colon, which

leads to an increase in hydrogen sulfide (their toxins) and damage to

the intestinal wall.

We all need to get a certain amount of the sulfur amino acids for our

bodies to function. My sense is that Andy just emphasizes getting them

from meat and reducing other sources of the sulfur amino acids and the

other sulfur compounds so people are getting their full complement of

amino acids. On the other hand, if you can't eat meat, he suggests in

the book to eat peas and beans.

Or perhaps there is some other mysterious reason! At any rate, I

can't eat any of it! And we all need to find what we can individually

eat, like you suggest. Be well, Lee.

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> >Andy lists meat and

> > fish in the low sulfur food category.

, I took a minute to check my nutrition book and meats, poultry,

and fish are definitely in the high sulfur category along with eggs

and dairy and beans; it's a basic nutrition fact. I don't recall in

any of my reading Andy actually saying they are low sulfur, but he

stresses eating them to get your amino acids unless you cannot

tolerate them. Apparently, many mercury people tolerate them OK

unless they are very sensitive. Be well, Lee

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> >Andy lists meat and

> > fish in the low sulfur food category.

, I took a minute to check my nutrition book and meats, poultry,

and fish are definitely in the high sulfur category along with eggs

and dairy and beans; it's a basic nutrition fact. I don't recall in

any of my reading Andy actually saying they are low sulfur, but he

stresses eating them to get your amino acids unless you cannot

tolerate them. Apparently, many mercury people tolerate them OK

unless they are very sensitive. Be well, Lee

[Guest guest]

....this might not be relevant, I looked for the posts my brain seems to

remember reading but can't find them at this moment, but here is my

recall of sulphur stuff.

I remember looking up high sulfur foods in a nutrition data base and I

seem to recall Andy speaking to this in a post...that the foods on the

list had to do with the thiol configuration (not a chemist, might be

saying this wrong) I seem to remember Blueberries being high sulfur in

the data base but are not on the food list...something to do with

chemical structure. I do not mean to imply that this is the case for

the meat thing, but I know I was confused about sulfur foods for a

while.

Colette

I will keep looking for the post:)

> , I took a minute to check my nutrition book and meats, poultry,

> and fish are definitely in the high sulfur category along with eggs

> and dairy and beans; it's a basic nutrition fact. I don't recall in

> any of my reading Andy actually saying they are low sulfur, but he

> stresses eating them to get your amino acids unless you cannot

> tolerate them. Apparently, many mercury people tolerate them OK

> unless they are very sensitive. Be well, Lee

>

[Guest guest]

> , I'm pretty sure the research shows that people with ulcerative

> colitis improve when they limit meats (and eggs and dairy)

It depends who you talk to. In the book " Breaking the Viscous Cycle "

Elaine Gottschall claims it takes at least 2 years on the SCD (which

is a diet that includes meats, eggs, and dairy) to cure ulcerative

colitis.

I have ulcerative colitis and have had 2 major flare ups in the last

two years. It took a modified, strict version of the SCD to get my

colitis under control. During the most difficult times I was able to

eat meat, eggs, and some dairy. It was carbohydrate that I found that

I had to seriously limit. First I had to abandon my former diet that

did include several CHO sources. When that wasn't enough, I had to

restrict honey totally and most fruits, and go to a seriously

restricted version of the beginner SCD until I got the symptoms under

control.

After the first flare over a year ago the big mistake I made was to

introduce CHO again, and then I got hit by another major flare up last

Christmas that I am just getting over now - and am eating lots of

eggs, meat, and some dairy and still seriously restricting CHO.

because

> they are all rich in the sulfur amino acids, which, when not digested

> properly increase the sulfate reducing bacteria in the colon, which

> leads to an increase in hydrogen sulfide (their toxins) and damage to

> the intestinal wall.

It's easy to tell if hydrogen sulfide is being produced because of the

smell (rotten eggs).

When carbohydrates are not digested properly and absorbed they move

down further where they are digested anaerobically and the byproducts

of anaerobic fermentation are acetaldehyde, alcohol, (which cause

damage) and CO2 (odorless gas).

>

> We all need to get a certain amount of the sulfur amino acids for our

> bodies to function.

>My sense is that Andy just emphasizes getting them

> from meat and reducing other sources of the sulfur amino acids and the

> other sulfur compounds so people are getting their full complement of

> amino acids.

The confusion in this thread has to do with some people (about half of

mercury toxic people) not being able to tolerate foods that are high

in readily available thiol (SH) groups. For those people meat is ok

(unless there is some other reason they can't tolerate it) because it

has a relatively low proportion of readily available thiol groups

compared to other foods that he has listed on his " high sulfur food "

lists. I attempted to explain in a separate post.

Cysteine, methionine, and cystine are the sulfur containing amino

acids. Of those only cysteine has readily available thiol (SH) groups.

I agree that it is difficult for people to get a full complement of

all the needed amino acids without including meat in the diet. That

is a separate issue.

There must be posts in archives where Andy has clarified all of this

before.

On the other hand, if you can't eat meat, he suggests in

> the book to eat peas and beans.

>

> Or perhaps there is some other mysterious reason! At any rate, I

> can't eat any of it! And we all need to find what we can individually

> eat,

Yes, there is no diet that suits all. It's a trick to figure out what

is best for each individual. What I found was that my needs changed

with time and the diet I was doing very well on for years was no

longer suitable.

J

like you suggest. Be well, Lee.

>

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks. The term " readily available thiol groups " probably explains a

lot. They must not be so readily available in meat for some

biochemical reason or perhaps it is because it is lower in cysteine.

Your explanation really helps a lot to clarify the confusion! I

appreciate it a lot. I didn't see anywhere in the book that Andy

explains this. However, he does say it's more correct to speak about

'thiols' rather than 'sulfur' foods and this is probably why.

About UC and meat, the research I'm referring to is much more recent

that Elaine's work. However, there may be different mechanisms in

place for different people in terms of what is causing the damage as

Elaine's diet doesn't work for everyone either.

I'm glad you found a diet approach that works for you, which is the

main point!!!!

Thanks again for this clarification. It is really helpful to understand.

Warmly,

>

> The confusion in this thread has to do with some people (about half of

> mercury toxic people) not being able to tolerate foods that are high

> in readily available thiol (SH) groups. For those people meat is ok

> (unless there is some other reason they can't tolerate it) because it

> has a relatively low proportion of readily available thiol groups

> compared to other foods that he has listed on his " high sulfur food "

> lists. I attempted to explain in a separate post.

>

> Cysteine, methionine, and cystine are the sulfur containing amino

> acids. Of those only cysteine has readily available thiol (SH) groups.

>