Re: Test Results - Andy, Dean, Others?

[Guest guest]

>

> I'm really struggling with what to do based on recent test results

> for hormones, cholesterol, etc.

>

> Background info on hormones: I've shown all-day borderline low

> cortisol (per saliva testing).

You will likely benefit from physiological cortisol. It would be best

to treat this before adding thryoid hormone.

I clearly benefit in small degrees

> from taking Isocort, have benefitted going off & on with Adrenal

> Stress Formula, & recently seem to benefit from a bit of

> hydrocortisone cream each day. All of my hormones are low or

> borderline low, have been for years, and are very hard to treat.

> Prior to initiating treatment 5 years ago, T4 was high in proportion

> to T3 (each just within normal ranges),

Were these free T4 and free T3? If those haven't yet been tested the

results might help.

so I wound up on

> T3/Cytomel.

Cytomel gives too much T3 too fast and then blood levels drop quickly.

That is very hard on the adrenals, as I learned the hard way. It is

best to use SR T3, with some T4 if needed - after the adrenal problem

has been treated.

Early response to Cytomel & natural creams such as

> progesterone & testosterone was surprisingly good, but follow-up

> tests showed I was accumulating them at dangerous levels in my

> bloodstream, even though I didn't recognize problems/symptoms at

> all. After getting dosages lowered and undergoing a lot of detox &

> amalgam removal, ability to metabolize Cytomel improved, but not the

> others.

>

The high T3 on one test and lower on another could simply be an

artifact of when the samples were drawn in relation to when the

cytomel dose was taken.

> Other than progesterone, oral pregnenalone & 7-keto DHEA, I've given

> up on the rest. Both DHEA & estrogren metabolize incorrectly, so

> I'm going on without detectable estradiol, & DHEA and testosterone

> are well below normal in blood work.

>

You have likely already read them - Dr. Lee's books are useful.

> I've long assumed this is very much pituitary/hypothalamic problems

> and know other hormone deficiencies unchecked via bloodwork exist.

>

> I work out every other day because it's essential that I sweat

> regularly, but the workouts do often leave me more fatigued for the

> rest of the day.

It is good that you can work out. Try not to over do it.

Maybe it's bad for adrenals, but I know it's good

> in so many other respects I wouldn't think of giving it up. I'm low

> sulfate, but epsom salts baths seem harder on me.

I wonder if sulfate could be supplemented gradually - starting at low

doses and building up with time.

I take all

> appropriate supplements in hypoallergenic forms, including minerals,

> and seriously doubt I'm missing anything.

>

> We did comprehensive testing on lipids. Pre-dental work, I was

> borderline low for cholesterol, especially triglycerides. I've

> increased the percent of fats in my diet significantly in following

> years & all cholesterol levels are up - high & touching past high

> normal now, including a bad form of LDL. It's now apparent

> cholesterol simply doesn't get converted into hormones.

>

My cholesterol has always been low too. I have decided not to focus

on it until I chelate more, except for including it in my diet.

> Also to understand things better, I had the liver detox profile test

> done, and I was fast Phase I and slow Phase II in areas critical for

> hormone detoxification, such as glucuronidation & glutathione

> levels. The cysteine & sulfate levels were low, but I don't know if

> that's useful info for our purposes?

If it is the new cysteine test then it's not too useful. Elimination

and challenge can be used to determine if a low cysteine diet is

appropriate. The sulfate level does help - supplementation will push

the levels up.

Oxidation assessments were

> high. I'm extremely chemical sensitive & have problems with lots of

> phenol compounds found in foods, too.

>

I assume that you are using the supplements known to help with

chemical sensitivities.

> Based on experience & testing, I have a serious concern about trying

> to process/detox any more supplemented hormones on a daily basis

> until chelation can perhaps improve my body's ability to both

> produce, metabolize, and appropriately break down hormones. The

> Geneva Labs hormone analysis clearly shows that with supplemented

> compounded progesterone in the center normal range, conversion to

> other hormones is quite poor. SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin)

> is high, which I suspect is unavoidable & perhaps a result of taking

> T3 and using 1/2 of my low-dose estradiol patches. The estradiol

> only registers as converting to other estrogens, including the

> metabolite associated with breast cancer. I'm not pushing to do

> more with cortisol at this time, knowing it has to detox via the

> same pathways as estrogen, testosterone, etc. Does this sound

> appropriate?

>

Andy would be the one to ask.

My thinking is that you may need some supplemental cortisol.

> Is this a sensible approach? It's probably more a gut instinct than

> anything. I'm certain my whole CNS is downregulated, as thyroid is

> only helpful when a small dose of stimulant is taken with it (i.e.,

> heart palpitations, fluid accumulation, low body temp, extreme

> fatigue & joint pain, slow/very dull thinking process, etc.). It

> seems the worst damage has come when I tried to do things as

> naturally as possible (including years of strict avoidance of

> anything with stimulant qualities) and had a severely low metabolism

> as a consequence.

>

> We also tested for and found low normal Vit D levels with high

> normal calcium. Is this typical?

Most people are low Vit D. It is ok to supplement 2000 iu per day

without regular testing, and more with regular testing. It is good to

get the levels up around 100 nmol/l for lots of reasons.

I was already supplementing both

> at lowish levels & my doc wants me on more D. I supplement a much

> higher amount of magnesium and occasionally use Mag/Potass forms. I

> feel like trying to balance this group of minerals is guesswork &

> have been at it for five years.

I have found I have to be careful with potassium.

My hair tests weren't done until

> after the fact and long-term supplementation, so they don't meet

> counting rules. But they still show the expected high Ca, Mg,

> Strontium, low Lithium, and center range Na & K.

>

The high Ca and Mg with lowish Na and K indicates your adrenals need

some help.

> A final question - why do I feel more energetic & function best not

> eating much - as in until 2-3 pm?

I don't know but I need a nap after eating too. Blood probably goes

to digestion and isn't available so much for other things.

My diet's quite rigid - whole

> food/organic based on multiple allergy testing plus known responses

> to certain things. I never feel like or want to eat until later as

> it easily messes up feeling good enough to get a few things done.

> I've wondered if insulin levels increase appropriately, but that's

> yet another gland/hormone, and haven't shown low glucose or other

> blood indicators for hypoglycemic problems on tests. I'm starting to

> monitor glucose levels a bit myself.

>

> Any thoughts are appreciated. I have a great, well-intentioned

> doctor but she doesn't truly understand Hg toxicity or particularly

> wish to. I need to get back with her as she wants me back on DHEA,

> estradiol, etc., but won't touch cortisol.

Yeah, most won't touch cortisol. Physiological doses can really help

the people who need it.

I hope that you have started chelation. You won't be able to get

everything perfect before starting, and might as well get the process

underway.

J

It's an ongoing struggle

> to keep learning, relearning, and piecing together all the

> information myself to determine what best to do.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Joanne

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Joanne, I think you've gotten some wonderful advice and input from

and (they are gems!), so I don't think I'll have much to add, but will

make a few comments below.--------Jackie

In frequent-dose-chelation wrote:

>

> I'm really struggling with what to do based on recent test results

> for hormones, cholesterol, etc.

>

> Background info on hormones: I've shown all-day borderline low

> cortisol (per saliva testing).

You will likely benefit from physiological cortisol. It would be best

to treat this before adding thryoid hormone.

----------My saliva test was the same, and I agree with , that you would

benefit from getting enough cortisol. And I also feel like ACE is helping my

adrenals alot also. I'm still not taking anything for thyroid, and my numbers

have improved, I believe at least partly because I'm treating my adrenals. For

me personally, I think adrenals is a huge factor for me.--------Jackie

I clearly benefit in small degrees

> from taking Isocort, have benefitted going off & on with Adrenal

> Stress Formula, & recently seem to benefit from a bit of

> hydrocortisone cream each day.

----------I used Isocort too before I got HC. Is there a reason you stopped

taking it? Is that why you are using the cream now? If you get benefit from

adrenal support, then I think you know you need it, and maybe even more than

what you are taking. And if you have alot of stress in your life, then believe

me, you need it. Of course it is best to try to reduce stress, but this isn't

always possible. But it sounds like your body is telling you that your adrenals

need help.-------------Jackie

All of my hormones are low or

> borderline low, have been for years, and are very hard to treat.

-------------Pretty much any hormone I have had tested is low too, or low

normal. I think Andy mentions this in AI, and is very common if HPA is

poisoned. I've only been working on my hormones for about a year, and many are

still low. Some even went down from my first test, although I wasn't directly

supplementing those. Anyway, I agree, they can be very hard to treat. And I

found a big difference in blood levels and saliva levels. Had bloodwork done by

an OBGYN, and she told me everything was normal, and then less than a year

later, saliva testing told me I was *severely deficient* in progesterone. I

don't believe it changed that much in that time. So I don't believe the

bloodwork tells you what's happening in your cells. I did feel better once I

started supplementing some of these like progesterone, DHEA and

pregnenolone.----------Jackie

> Prior to initiating treatment 5 years ago, T4 was high in proportion

> to T3 (each just within normal ranges),

Were these free T4 and free T3? If those haven't yet been tested the

results might help.

so I wound up on

> T3/Cytomel.

Cytomel gives too much T3 too fast and then blood levels drop quickly.

That is very hard on the adrenals, as I learned the hard way. It is

best to use SR T3, with some T4 if needed - after the adrenal problem

has been treated.

Early response to Cytomel & natural creams such as

> progesterone & testosterone was surprisingly good, but follow-up

> tests showed I was accumulating them at dangerous levels in my

> bloodstream, even though I didn't recognize problems/symptoms at

> all. After getting dosages lowered and undergoing a lot of detox &

> amalgam removal, ability to metabolize Cytomel improved, but not the

> others.

------------I guess I probably don't know enough about this, but my gut would

tell me that if you are feeling good, then the dosage should be ok? I think

some doctors are too concerned about numbers on labs? I guess someones' opinion

like Andy's or 's on this would be interesting.----------Jackie

>

The high T3 on one test and lower on another could simply be an

artifact of when the samples were drawn in relation to when the

cytomel dose was taken.

> Other than progesterone, oral pregnenalone & 7-keto DHEA, I've given

> up on the rest. Both DHEA & estrogren metabolize incorrectly, so

> I'm going on without detectable estradiol, & DHEA and testosterone

> are well below normal in blood work.

>

You have likely already read them - Dr. Lee's books are useful.

---------Yes, Andy recommends his books too. He even sells them at his

website now. More info on them at www.johnleemd.com ----------Jackie

> I've long assumed this is very much pituitary/hypothalamic problems

> and know other hormone deficiencies unchecked via bloodwork exist.

-------------Yes, as I mentioned above, Andy says this in AI, that if some

hormones are messed up, they probably all are to some degree. I don't think

you'll be able to fix everything, you just have to chelate. If you can

supplement or correct some of them, it helps you feel better and should be done,

but it shouldn't stop you from chelating. Because I truly believe what Andy

says is that these things aren't going to get better until you

do.------------Jackie

>

> I work out every other day because it's essential that I sweat

> regularly, but the workouts do often leave me more fatigued for the

> rest of the day.

It is good that you can work out. Try not to over do it.

-----------Yes, with adrenal fatigue, especially if they are not fully

supported, too much exercise can be very hard on them. And exercise mobilizes

toxins, so you have to find a moderate amount that doesn't leave you feeling

worse. I also have very low Cal/Mag on my hairtest, and Andy says in that case

that too much exercise will make you feel worse. If Cal/Mag is high, then

exercise is helpful.----------Jackie

Maybe it's bad for adrenals, but I know it's good

> in so many other respects I wouldn't think of giving it up. I'm low

> sulfate, but epsom salts baths seem harder on me.

------------Like commented, it may have been too much too fast. Try

using a small amount, or do just a foot soak. You can also use the mag sulfate

cream, or take glucosamine sulfate supplements (just not with calcium). Another

source of sulfate is bone broth soups or just plain gelatin. I buy the plain

Knox stuff.-----Jackie

I wonder if sulfate could be supplemented gradually - starting at low

doses and building up with time.

I take all

> appropriate supplements in hypoallergenic forms, including minerals,

> and seriously doubt I'm missing anything.

>

> We did comprehensive testing on lipids. Pre-dental work, I was

> borderline low for cholesterol, especially triglycerides. I've

> increased the percent of fats in my diet significantly in following

> years & all cholesterol levels are up - high & touching past high

> normal now, including a bad form of LDL. It's now apparent

> cholesterol simply doesn't get converted into hormones.

>

My cholesterol has always been low too. I have decided not to focus

on it until I chelate more, except for including it in my diet.

> Also to understand things better, I had the liver detox profile test

> done, and I was fast Phase I and slow Phase II

------------This goes along with having MCS, and anything that slows down

phase 1 should help, like grapefruit juice, GSE, niacinamide, and I *think* oil

of oregano? There may be other things too.-----------Jackie

in areas critical for

> hormone detoxification, such as glucuronidation & glutathione

> levels.

-------------If your glutathione levels are low, that is normal for toxic

people, mine were too, and Andy has said that all chronically ill or toxic

people will have low glutathione levels. But directly supplementing it isn't

useful. You can try to boost it by taking the precursors to it, NAC, glutamine,

and glycine. But, NAC is sulfury, so some people don't tolerate

it.----------Jackie

The cysteine & sulfate levels were low, but I don't know if

> that's useful info for our purposes?

-----------Do you feel better or worse if you eat sulfury foods? Like

said, the new cysteine test isn't as useful, according to Andy. But getting

more sulfate as mentioned above can help.----------Jackie

If it is the new cysteine test then it's not too useful. Elimination

and challenge can be used to determine if a low cysteine diet is

appropriate. The sulfate level does help - supplementation will push

the levels up.

Oxidation assessments were high.

-------------My test showed high oxidative stress also, meaning I needed more

antioxidants. Do you take *lots* of Vit C, and 800-1200 IU of Vit E? You

should probably be taking Vit C up to bowel tolerance. It's good for your

adrenal glands too, so you may be needing lots of it.---------Jackie

I'm extremely chemical sensitive

----------This is from the fast phase 1 and slow phase 2 liver. The above

things are supposed to help, grapefruit juice, etc.-----------Jackie

& have problems with lots of

> phenol compounds found in foods, too.

------------Do you limit or exclude these in your diet? Have you tried the

supplement No-Fenol? I think mentioned it. I have heard about it

from the A-M board, and I think it comes from Houstonni Enzymes. Might be worth

a try.--------Jackie

>

I assume that you are using the supplements known to help with

chemical sensitivities.

> Based on experience & testing, I have a serious concern about trying

> to process/detox any more supplemented hormones on a daily basis

> until chelation can perhaps improve my body's ability to both

> produce, metabolize, and appropriately break down hormones. The

> Genova Labs hormone analysis clearly shows that with supplemented

> compounded progesterone in the center normal range, conversion to

> other hormones is quite poor. SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin)

> is high, which I suspect is unavoidable & perhaps a result of taking

> T3 and using 1/2 of my low-dose estradiol patches. The estradiol

> only registers as converting to other estrogens, including the

> metabolite associated with breast cancer. I'm not pushing to do

> more with cortisol at this time, knowing it has to detox via the

> same pathways as estrogen, testosterone, etc. Does this sound

> appropriate?

>

Andy would be the one to ask.

My thinking is that you may need some supplemental cortisol.

-----------I agree with , this sounds like a question for Andy. I also

agree that even if you can't take all the rest of the hormones, that getting

cortisol somehow might benefit you alot. It's really hard to function without

it, and it is continued stress on your adrenals to try to do so, and they will

never heal until they get some support. At the very least, you need to be

taking supportive supplements like lots of Vit C, B5, magnesium, and I

personally find ACE very helpful. Feels like its doing something different or

more than HC alone.-----------Jackie

> Is this a sensible approach? It's probably more a gut instinct than

> anything. I'm certain my whole CNS is downregulated, as thyroid is

> only helpful when a small dose of stimulant is taken with it (i.e.,

> heart palpitations, fluid accumulation, low body temp, extreme

> fatigue & joint pain, slow/very dull thinking process, etc.). It

> seems the worst damage has come when I tried to do things as

> naturally as possible (including years of strict avoidance of

> anything with stimulant qualities) and had a severely low metabolism

> as a consequence.

>

> We also tested for and found low normal Vit D levels with high

> normal calcium. Is this typical?

-----------I am also low in Vit D, and my levels have been very stubborn to

raise, so I am taking 5,000 IU a day, but that is with doctor's supervision. I

live in northern Minnesota, so my climate might have something to do with that

also. Not too much skin exposed at 20 below!----------Jackie

Most people are low Vit D. It is ok to supplement 2000 iu per day

without regular testing, and more with regular testing. It is good to

get the levels up around 100 nmol/l for lots of reasons.

I was already supplementing both

> at lowish levels & my doc wants me on more D. I supplement a much

> higher amount of magnesium and occasionally use Mag/Potass forms. I

> feel like trying to balance this group of minerals is guesswork &

> have been at it for five years.

------------I have read that people with adrenal problems need to be careful

with potassium, and usually need more sodium. Hence, having 1/4-1 tsp of sea

salt in water a few times a day, especially in the morning is good. And they

also said it was a bad idea to eat something like a banana at breakfast, because

of the high potassium and the sugar/carb content. And I think many of us need

lots of magnesium, more so than some of the other minerals.---------Jackie

I have found I have to be careful with potassium.

My hair tests weren't done until

> after the fact and long-term supplementation, so they don't meet

> counting rules. But they still show the expected high Ca, Mg,

> Strontium, low Lithium, and center range Na & K.

------------If your lithium is low red, then it's ok to supplement that also.

VRP has a low dose lithium that is appropriate for this. And as

mentioned, this shows the adrenal sign, so supporting them is

important.---------Jackie

>

The high Ca and Mg with lowish Na and K indicates your adrenals need

some help.

> A final question - why do I feel more energetic & function best not

> eating much - as in until 2-3 pm?

-----------I have done that sometimes also, and I think it's a blood sugar

thing, but I don't understand it all either. But I think it has more to do with

higher blood sugar rather than lower, because I thought with low blood sugar you

feel terrible if you don't eat. Maybe by not adding anything new to the mix

(food), your body can keep your blood sugar more level? And there's just too

much fluctuation after you eat?------Jackie

I don't know but I need a nap after eating too. Blood probably goes

to digestion and isn't available so much for other things.

My diet's quite rigid - whole

> food/organic based on multiple allergy testing plus known responses

> to certain things. I never feel like or want to eat until later as

> it easily messes up feeling good enough to get a few things done.

-------------I'm just curious, do you eat later at night, and then possibly

get up later also? My schedule is more pushed back like this often, and I

usually don't feel hungry in the morning then either. But I do know that I need

protein when I do eat.---------Jackie

> I've wondered if insulin levels increase appropriately, but that's

> yet another gland/hormone, and haven't shown low glucose or other

> blood indicators for hypoglycemic problems on tests. I'm starting to

> monitor glucose levels a bit myself.

-------------Most people with adrenal problems have low blood sugar, but

that's not always 100% the case. I have adrenal fatigue, and I have high blood

sugar. Mercury and arsenic can both cause this, and I have both metals.

Arsenic can also mess up your pyruvate handling, and this can cause blood sugar

problems. In this case, a high protein Atkin's style diet is the best. Also,

Biotin, taken 3-4 X/day is good for this also. It's also good for candida, so

is just a good thing to take. But in general, our blood sugar regulation is one

thing that can get messed up, whether it be high or low.-----------Jackie

>

> Any thoughts are appreciated. I have a great, well-intentioned

> doctor but she doesn't truly understand Hg toxicity or particularly

> wish to. I need to get back with her as she wants me back on DHEA,

> estradiol, etc., but won't touch cortisol.

------------Yes it is hard to find a doctor who understands safe doses of

cortisol. I had that same problem. One of the reasons I finally went to see

. But you can use Isocort on your own, if you are so inclined.

Otherwise, I think Dean mentioned that you are a complicated case, and

consulting with Andy might be a good idea. I agree. If you can afford it and

can get this doctor to sign a consulting agreement, I would definitely pursue

it. You have spent a long time trying to figure this out on your own, and it

just might be time to call in the big guns, or gun, in Andy's case. I myself

considered doing it over a year ago when I had alot of problems, and I discussed

it with Andy via email, but decided to go see instead, because I

still didn't have a good doctor here who would sign the agreement and work with

him. I asked Andy about still consulting with him through , and he said it

probably wouldn't be necessary, and said the same thing, and said that we

could always consult him later, if I proved to be a difficult case. And I

believe that has consulted him on my case at least once already, so those

two work closely together. Anyway, I am very glad I took this step, and it is

*so nice* to have a practitioner who gets it all---------hair tests, Andy's

protocol, hormones, adrenals, everything. But, if you like your doctor and

she's willing to consult with Andy, I would definitely consider doing it Joanne.

JMO-------Jackie

Yeah, most won't touch cortisol. Physiological doses can really help

the people who need it.

I hope that you have started chelation. You won't be able to get

everything perfect before starting, and might as well get the process

underway.

J

It's an ongoing struggle

> to keep learning, relearning, and piecing together all the

> information myself to determine what best to do.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Joanne

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Joanne, I think you've gotten some wonderful advice and input from

and (they are gems!), so I don't think I'll have much to add, but will

make a few comments below.--------Jackie

In frequent-dose-chelation wrote:

>

> I'm really struggling with what to do based on recent test results

> for hormones, cholesterol, etc.

>

> Background info on hormones: I've shown all-day borderline low

> cortisol (per saliva testing).

You will likely benefit from physiological cortisol. It would be best

to treat this before adding thryoid hormone.

----------My saliva test was the same, and I agree with , that you would

benefit from getting enough cortisol. And I also feel like ACE is helping my

adrenals alot also. I'm still not taking anything for thyroid, and my numbers

have improved, I believe at least partly because I'm treating my adrenals. For

me personally, I think adrenals is a huge factor for me.--------Jackie

I clearly benefit in small degrees

> from taking Isocort, have benefitted going off & on with Adrenal

> Stress Formula, & recently seem to benefit from a bit of

> hydrocortisone cream each day.

----------I used Isocort too before I got HC. Is there a reason you stopped

taking it? Is that why you are using the cream now? If you get benefit from

adrenal support, then I think you know you need it, and maybe even more than

what you are taking. And if you have alot of stress in your life, then believe

me, you need it. Of course it is best to try to reduce stress, but this isn't

always possible. But it sounds like your body is telling you that your adrenals

need help.-------------Jackie

All of my hormones are low or

> borderline low, have been for years, and are very hard to treat.

-------------Pretty much any hormone I have had tested is low too, or low

normal. I think Andy mentions this in AI, and is very common if HPA is

poisoned. I've only been working on my hormones for about a year, and many are

still low. Some even went down from my first test, although I wasn't directly

supplementing those. Anyway, I agree, they can be very hard to treat. And I

found a big difference in blood levels and saliva levels. Had bloodwork done by

an OBGYN, and she told me everything was normal, and then less than a year

later, saliva testing told me I was *severely deficient* in progesterone. I

don't believe it changed that much in that time. So I don't believe the

bloodwork tells you what's happening in your cells. I did feel better once I

started supplementing some of these like progesterone, DHEA and

pregnenolone.----------Jackie

> Prior to initiating treatment 5 years ago, T4 was high in proportion

> to T3 (each just within normal ranges),

Were these free T4 and free T3? If those haven't yet been tested the

results might help.

so I wound up on

> T3/Cytomel.

Cytomel gives too much T3 too fast and then blood levels drop quickly.

That is very hard on the adrenals, as I learned the hard way. It is

best to use SR T3, with some T4 if needed - after the adrenal problem

has been treated.

Early response to Cytomel & natural creams such as

> progesterone & testosterone was surprisingly good, but follow-up

> tests showed I was accumulating them at dangerous levels in my

> bloodstream, even though I didn't recognize problems/symptoms at

> all. After getting dosages lowered and undergoing a lot of detox &

> amalgam removal, ability to metabolize Cytomel improved, but not the

> others.

------------I guess I probably don't know enough about this, but my gut would

tell me that if you are feeling good, then the dosage should be ok? I think

some doctors are too concerned about numbers on labs? I guess someones' opinion

like Andy's or 's on this would be interesting.----------Jackie

>

The high T3 on one test and lower on another could simply be an

artifact of when the samples were drawn in relation to when the

cytomel dose was taken.

> Other than progesterone, oral pregnenalone & 7-keto DHEA, I've given

> up on the rest. Both DHEA & estrogren metabolize incorrectly, so

> I'm going on without detectable estradiol, & DHEA and testosterone

> are well below normal in blood work.

>

You have likely already read them - Dr. Lee's books are useful.

---------Yes, Andy recommends his books too. He even sells them at his

website now. More info on them at www.johnleemd.com ----------Jackie

> I've long assumed this is very much pituitary/hypothalamic problems

> and know other hormone deficiencies unchecked via bloodwork exist.

-------------Yes, as I mentioned above, Andy says this in AI, that if some

hormones are messed up, they probably all are to some degree. I don't think

you'll be able to fix everything, you just have to chelate. If you can

supplement or correct some of them, it helps you feel better and should be done,

but it shouldn't stop you from chelating. Because I truly believe what Andy

says is that these things aren't going to get better until you

do.------------Jackie

>

> I work out every other day because it's essential that I sweat

> regularly, but the workouts do often leave me more fatigued for the

> rest of the day.

It is good that you can work out. Try not to over do it.

-----------Yes, with adrenal fatigue, especially if they are not fully

supported, too much exercise can be very hard on them. And exercise mobilizes

toxins, so you have to find a moderate amount that doesn't leave you feeling

worse. I also have very low Cal/Mag on my hairtest, and Andy says in that case

that too much exercise will make you feel worse. If Cal/Mag is high, then

exercise is helpful.----------Jackie

Maybe it's bad for adrenals, but I know it's good

> in so many other respects I wouldn't think of giving it up. I'm low

> sulfate, but epsom salts baths seem harder on me.

------------Like commented, it may have been too much too fast. Try

using a small amount, or do just a foot soak. You can also use the mag sulfate

cream, or take glucosamine sulfate supplements (just not with calcium). Another

source of sulfate is bone broth soups or just plain gelatin. I buy the plain

Knox stuff.-----Jackie

I wonder if sulfate could be supplemented gradually - starting at low

doses and building up with time.

I take all

> appropriate supplements in hypoallergenic forms, including minerals,

> and seriously doubt I'm missing anything.

>

> We did comprehensive testing on lipids. Pre-dental work, I was

> borderline low for cholesterol, especially triglycerides. I've

> increased the percent of fats in my diet significantly in following

> years & all cholesterol levels are up - high & touching past high

> normal now, including a bad form of LDL. It's now apparent

> cholesterol simply doesn't get converted into hormones.

>

My cholesterol has always been low too. I have decided not to focus

on it until I chelate more, except for including it in my diet.

> Also to understand things better, I had the liver detox profile test

> done, and I was fast Phase I and slow Phase II

------------This goes along with having MCS, and anything that slows down

phase 1 should help, like grapefruit juice, GSE, niacinamide, and I *think* oil

of oregano? There may be other things too.-----------Jackie

in areas critical for

> hormone detoxification, such as glucuronidation & glutathione

> levels.

-------------If your glutathione levels are low, that is normal for toxic

people, mine were too, and Andy has said that all chronically ill or toxic

people will have low glutathione levels. But directly supplementing it isn't

useful. You can try to boost it by taking the precursors to it, NAC, glutamine,

and glycine. But, NAC is sulfury, so some people don't tolerate

it.----------Jackie

The cysteine & sulfate levels were low, but I don't know if

> that's useful info for our purposes?

-----------Do you feel better or worse if you eat sulfury foods? Like

said, the new cysteine test isn't as useful, according to Andy. But getting

more sulfate as mentioned above can help.----------Jackie

If it is the new cysteine test then it's not too useful. Elimination

and challenge can be used to determine if a low cysteine diet is

appropriate. The sulfate level does help - supplementation will push

the levels up.

Oxidation assessments were high.

-------------My test showed high oxidative stress also, meaning I needed more

antioxidants. Do you take *lots* of Vit C, and 800-1200 IU of Vit E? You

should probably be taking Vit C up to bowel tolerance. It's good for your

adrenal glands too, so you may be needing lots of it.---------Jackie

I'm extremely chemical sensitive

----------This is from the fast phase 1 and slow phase 2 liver. The above

things are supposed to help, grapefruit juice, etc.-----------Jackie

& have problems with lots of

> phenol compounds found in foods, too.

------------Do you limit or exclude these in your diet? Have you tried the

supplement No-Fenol? I think mentioned it. I have heard about it

from the A-M board, and I think it comes from Houstonni Enzymes. Might be worth

a try.--------Jackie

>

I assume that you are using the supplements known to help with

chemical sensitivities.

> Based on experience & testing, I have a serious concern about trying

> to process/detox any more supplemented hormones on a daily basis

> until chelation can perhaps improve my body's ability to both

> produce, metabolize, and appropriately break down hormones. The

> Genova Labs hormone analysis clearly shows that with supplemented

> compounded progesterone in the center normal range, conversion to

> other hormones is quite poor. SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin)

> is high, which I suspect is unavoidable & perhaps a result of taking

> T3 and using 1/2 of my low-dose estradiol patches. The estradiol

> only registers as converting to other estrogens, including the

> metabolite associated with breast cancer. I'm not pushing to do

> more with cortisol at this time, knowing it has to detox via the

> same pathways as estrogen, testosterone, etc. Does this sound

> appropriate?

>

Andy would be the one to ask.

My thinking is that you may need some supplemental cortisol.

-----------I agree with , this sounds like a question for Andy. I also

agree that even if you can't take all the rest of the hormones, that getting

cortisol somehow might benefit you alot. It's really hard to function without

it, and it is continued stress on your adrenals to try to do so, and they will

never heal until they get some support. At the very least, you need to be

taking supportive supplements like lots of Vit C, B5, magnesium, and I

personally find ACE very helpful. Feels like its doing something different or

more than HC alone.-----------Jackie

> Is this a sensible approach? It's probably more a gut instinct than

> anything. I'm certain my whole CNS is downregulated, as thyroid is

> only helpful when a small dose of stimulant is taken with it (i.e.,

> heart palpitations, fluid accumulation, low body temp, extreme

> fatigue & joint pain, slow/very dull thinking process, etc.). It

> seems the worst damage has come when I tried to do things as

> naturally as possible (including years of strict avoidance of

> anything with stimulant qualities) and had a severely low metabolism

> as a consequence.

>

> We also tested for and found low normal Vit D levels with high

> normal calcium. Is this typical?

-----------I am also low in Vit D, and my levels have been very stubborn to

raise, so I am taking 5,000 IU a day, but that is with doctor's supervision. I

live in northern Minnesota, so my climate might have something to do with that

also. Not too much skin exposed at 20 below!----------Jackie

Most people are low Vit D. It is ok to supplement 2000 iu per day

without regular testing, and more with regular testing. It is good to

get the levels up around 100 nmol/l for lots of reasons.

I was already supplementing both

> at lowish levels & my doc wants me on more D. I supplement a much

> higher amount of magnesium and occasionally use Mag/Potass forms. I

> feel like trying to balance this group of minerals is guesswork &

> have been at it for five years.

------------I have read that people with adrenal problems need to be careful

with potassium, and usually need more sodium. Hence, having 1/4-1 tsp of sea

salt in water a few times a day, especially in the morning is good. And they

also said it was a bad idea to eat something like a banana at breakfast, because

of the high potassium and the sugar/carb content. And I think many of us need

lots of magnesium, more so than some of the other minerals.---------Jackie

I have found I have to be careful with potassium.

My hair tests weren't done until

> after the fact and long-term supplementation, so they don't meet

> counting rules. But they still show the expected high Ca, Mg,

> Strontium, low Lithium, and center range Na & K.

------------If your lithium is low red, then it's ok to supplement that also.

VRP has a low dose lithium that is appropriate for this. And as

mentioned, this shows the adrenal sign, so supporting them is

important.---------Jackie

>

The high Ca and Mg with lowish Na and K indicates your adrenals need

some help.

> A final question - why do I feel more energetic & function best not

> eating much - as in until 2-3 pm?

-----------I have done that sometimes also, and I think it's a blood sugar

thing, but I don't understand it all either. But I think it has more to do with

higher blood sugar rather than lower, because I thought with low blood sugar you

feel terrible if you don't eat. Maybe by not adding anything new to the mix

(food), your body can keep your blood sugar more level? And there's just too

much fluctuation after you eat?------Jackie

I don't know but I need a nap after eating too. Blood probably goes

to digestion and isn't available so much for other things.

My diet's quite rigid - whole

> food/organic based on multiple allergy testing plus known responses

> to certain things. I never feel like or want to eat until later as

> it easily messes up feeling good enough to get a few things done.

-------------I'm just curious, do you eat later at night, and then possibly

get up later also? My schedule is more pushed back like this often, and I

usually don't feel hungry in the morning then either. But I do know that I need

protein when I do eat.---------Jackie

> I've wondered if insulin levels increase appropriately, but that's

> yet another gland/hormone, and haven't shown low glucose or other

> blood indicators for hypoglycemic problems on tests. I'm starting to

> monitor glucose levels a bit myself.

-------------Most people with adrenal problems have low blood sugar, but

that's not always 100% the case. I have adrenal fatigue, and I have high blood

sugar. Mercury and arsenic can both cause this, and I have both metals.

Arsenic can also mess up your pyruvate handling, and this can cause blood sugar

problems. In this case, a high protein Atkin's style diet is the best. Also,

Biotin, taken 3-4 X/day is good for this also. It's also good for candida, so

is just a good thing to take. But in general, our blood sugar regulation is one

thing that can get messed up, whether it be high or low.-----------Jackie

>

> Any thoughts are appreciated. I have a great, well-intentioned

> doctor but she doesn't truly understand Hg toxicity or particularly

> wish to. I need to get back with her as she wants me back on DHEA,

> estradiol, etc., but won't touch cortisol.

------------Yes it is hard to find a doctor who understands safe doses of

cortisol. I had that same problem. One of the reasons I finally went to see

. But you can use Isocort on your own, if you are so inclined.

Otherwise, I think Dean mentioned that you are a complicated case, and

consulting with Andy might be a good idea. I agree. If you can afford it and

can get this doctor to sign a consulting agreement, I would definitely pursue

it. You have spent a long time trying to figure this out on your own, and it

just might be time to call in the big guns, or gun, in Andy's case. I myself

considered doing it over a year ago when I had alot of problems, and I discussed

it with Andy via email, but decided to go see instead, because I

still didn't have a good doctor here who would sign the agreement and work with

him. I asked Andy about still consulting with him through , and he said it

probably wouldn't be necessary, and said the same thing, and said that we

could always consult him later, if I proved to be a difficult case. And I

believe that has consulted him on my case at least once already, so those

two work closely together. Anyway, I am very glad I took this step, and it is

*so nice* to have a practitioner who gets it all---------hair tests, Andy's

protocol, hormones, adrenals, everything. But, if you like your doctor and

she's willing to consult with Andy, I would definitely consider doing it Joanne.

JMO-------Jackie

Yeah, most won't touch cortisol. Physiological doses can really help

the people who need it.

I hope that you have started chelation. You won't be able to get

everything perfect before starting, and might as well get the process

underway.

J

It's an ongoing struggle

> to keep learning, relearning, and piecing together all the

> information myself to determine what best to do.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Joanne

>