Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 > Let me say first, I *really really really* appreciate all the > supportive emails I have had, both on and off list. > > However I would hate to be the cause of, as Lesley says, a two-sided > argument, for and against Ruthie. Well that's exactly what you have achieved Ruthie by taking what was clearly intended to be a word to the wise in private onto a public forum. Whilst I was upset about the > original " telling off " , I do understand that I can be a bit of a > religious bore, even though I would hope I wasn't seen as > evangelising or telling you all that Judaism is better, just > different. Most of my supporters say they are happy to be informed on > a faith about which little is generally known. That was the only > purpose of telling you about it, not to preach. > No-one was implying that you were preaching however if any person posted on any topic as constantly as you do I really hope that the moderators would quietly ask them to give it a rest. Many of us may have religious beliefs which inform and direct and permeate our lives but how many of those do we know about on this list? I have a son with learning difficulties and have had 3 c-sections however I am aware of how often I have given my perspective on those things and sometimes keep quiet in a conversation and just let it go on without me or only contribute when asked. Just as an attendee at a coffee morning might get a quiet hint from the hostess that turning every conversation into an opening to talk about herself is not only boring it is boorish, I would expect the moderators here to do the same. I don't care what religion you are, and I object to you and your " supporters " turning this into an anti-semitism issue. > I would like to see this unpleasant chapter put to rest. However, my > problem remains how to form any future postings without offending > anyone. If I am to be muzzled re our culture/faith and how it > affects our everyday life, I am left with little to say, as there is > no facet of me which it doesn't touch. For someone who is keen to put something to rest you seem to be posting an awful lot about it. This is driving people into two corners and if it continues no-one will have to leave the list, it will implode about us. So I will post, and re-read every word I write in case I am > talking too much about the wrong kind of things. I don't honestly > think I could live like that. I wouldn't enjoy talking to friends in > real life either, if I had to think three times before I opened my > mouth. Everyone stops and thinks before they open their mouths Ruthie. Its a fact of human life that we constantly monitor and appraise people's reactions to us. However on an email list you can't see people's reactions. Therefore the only reaction people can have is to openly disagree with you, thus provoking this kind of outburst or to be silent. However, you must admit that when people don't respond to your posts you then complain that no-one has replied. I don't think I am that controversial a figure that I > constantly speak out of turn, am I? The worst I can be accused of is > being a bit of a bore about being Jewish, or am I wrong? Oh sorry, > the word used was " offensive " , not boring. So does someone want to > give me a list of do's and don'ts I can refer to whenever I write a > post? Go quietly amidst the noise and the haste and remember what good there may be in silence? There are a group of Christians on this list who have set up their own list to talk about issues relating to their faith and parenting because they felt that others might feel criticised or offended by their references to their faith. These people all manage to post on this list too and I bet you couldn't name many of them. Yes I know your life is very different from the average Brit and that many people will find that fascinating, but maybe its time to move the subject on and have those kind of discussions offlist? It is a generally accepted tradition that we don't discuss religion and politics in a public forum and it is THAT that may offend not the particulars of whichever religion. > Right now my feelings are very confused; heartened by all the > support, but apprehensive and anxious about how to proceed on this > list in the future without risking more hurt. I'm sorry you feel like this. I'm equally sorry that this row will probably deter some very fine and equally sensitive people from taking part in this list any more. Those who groan the loudest aren't always those who are most hurt. > > It is also extremely worrying to think there may be a huge and silent > number of members who dislike my posts but don't choose to say > anything to me, just to the moderator. Well, people, especially women do tend to be extremely tolerent and not say things to people personally for fear of the kind of brouhaha which is happening now! I think it was Racine who said " Never confuse silence with agreement " . The thing is Ruthie that there are many people who find you amusing and interesting but you are also, like me a " loud " person on a list and you have to expect that sometimes people will not like you. It happens. We can't be loved by everyone no matter how lovely we are However when it happens enough to make people leave lists naming you as a reason then I think the moderator is honour bound to quietly have a word. I was watching a comedy sketch the other day where a bloke tried to audition for a woman's role in a play and when he was turned down he shouted " Its cos I'm black, innit? " . Please don't make the same mistake here. As far as I understand it you were not being asked not to be Jewish nor to refrain from talking about and celebrating your faith but you need to be sensitive to the fact that not everyone wants to hear about it all of the time. Yes, I agree with Deb Slater that people could and should hit the delete button but personally I would like to be told if I am being too loud or too long on a particular subject. You seem to manage to have varied conversations on other lists to which we both subscribe, I am sure it is possible here too. With best wishes and a heartfelt prayer for a speedy resolution to this, Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 > Let me say first, I *really really really* appreciate all the > supportive emails I have had, both on and off list. > > However I would hate to be the cause of, as Lesley says, a two-sided > argument, for and against Ruthie. Well that's exactly what you have achieved Ruthie by taking what was clearly intended to be a word to the wise in private onto a public forum. Whilst I was upset about the > original " telling off " , I do understand that I can be a bit of a > religious bore, even though I would hope I wasn't seen as > evangelising or telling you all that Judaism is better, just > different. Most of my supporters say they are happy to be informed on > a faith about which little is generally known. That was the only > purpose of telling you about it, not to preach. > No-one was implying that you were preaching however if any person posted on any topic as constantly as you do I really hope that the moderators would quietly ask them to give it a rest. Many of us may have religious beliefs which inform and direct and permeate our lives but how many of those do we know about on this list? I have a son with learning difficulties and have had 3 c-sections however I am aware of how often I have given my perspective on those things and sometimes keep quiet in a conversation and just let it go on without me or only contribute when asked. Just as an attendee at a coffee morning might get a quiet hint from the hostess that turning every conversation into an opening to talk about herself is not only boring it is boorish, I would expect the moderators here to do the same. I don't care what religion you are, and I object to you and your " supporters " turning this into an anti-semitism issue. > I would like to see this unpleasant chapter put to rest. However, my > problem remains how to form any future postings without offending > anyone. If I am to be muzzled re our culture/faith and how it > affects our everyday life, I am left with little to say, as there is > no facet of me which it doesn't touch. For someone who is keen to put something to rest you seem to be posting an awful lot about it. This is driving people into two corners and if it continues no-one will have to leave the list, it will implode about us. So I will post, and re-read every word I write in case I am > talking too much about the wrong kind of things. I don't honestly > think I could live like that. I wouldn't enjoy talking to friends in > real life either, if I had to think three times before I opened my > mouth. Everyone stops and thinks before they open their mouths Ruthie. Its a fact of human life that we constantly monitor and appraise people's reactions to us. However on an email list you can't see people's reactions. Therefore the only reaction people can have is to openly disagree with you, thus provoking this kind of outburst or to be silent. However, you must admit that when people don't respond to your posts you then complain that no-one has replied. I don't think I am that controversial a figure that I > constantly speak out of turn, am I? The worst I can be accused of is > being a bit of a bore about being Jewish, or am I wrong? Oh sorry, > the word used was " offensive " , not boring. So does someone want to > give me a list of do's and don'ts I can refer to whenever I write a > post? Go quietly amidst the noise and the haste and remember what good there may be in silence? There are a group of Christians on this list who have set up their own list to talk about issues relating to their faith and parenting because they felt that others might feel criticised or offended by their references to their faith. These people all manage to post on this list too and I bet you couldn't name many of them. Yes I know your life is very different from the average Brit and that many people will find that fascinating, but maybe its time to move the subject on and have those kind of discussions offlist? It is a generally accepted tradition that we don't discuss religion and politics in a public forum and it is THAT that may offend not the particulars of whichever religion. > Right now my feelings are very confused; heartened by all the > support, but apprehensive and anxious about how to proceed on this > list in the future without risking more hurt. I'm sorry you feel like this. I'm equally sorry that this row will probably deter some very fine and equally sensitive people from taking part in this list any more. Those who groan the loudest aren't always those who are most hurt. > > It is also extremely worrying to think there may be a huge and silent > number of members who dislike my posts but don't choose to say > anything to me, just to the moderator. Well, people, especially women do tend to be extremely tolerent and not say things to people personally for fear of the kind of brouhaha which is happening now! I think it was Racine who said " Never confuse silence with agreement " . The thing is Ruthie that there are many people who find you amusing and interesting but you are also, like me a " loud " person on a list and you have to expect that sometimes people will not like you. It happens. We can't be loved by everyone no matter how lovely we are However when it happens enough to make people leave lists naming you as a reason then I think the moderator is honour bound to quietly have a word. I was watching a comedy sketch the other day where a bloke tried to audition for a woman's role in a play and when he was turned down he shouted " Its cos I'm black, innit? " . Please don't make the same mistake here. As far as I understand it you were not being asked not to be Jewish nor to refrain from talking about and celebrating your faith but you need to be sensitive to the fact that not everyone wants to hear about it all of the time. Yes, I agree with Deb Slater that people could and should hit the delete button but personally I would like to be told if I am being too loud or too long on a particular subject. You seem to manage to have varied conversations on other lists to which we both subscribe, I am sure it is possible here too. With best wishes and a heartfelt prayer for a speedy resolution to this, Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 Gooness gracious, Ruthie, you really want this to go on and on and on, don't you? You are the one who has turned a private word into a public event. Why have you done that? I've tried to be professional and diplomatic as possible here, as is appropriate for a moderator, but I am being severely challenged by all this. You are not the only one who has received private emails about this fuss. I will try my best to continue of course, but if I slip, please forgive me. Now, you have been told several times over the course of the past few months when you have really offended people. You have been told in private, because that is the appropriate place for that kind of thing. Would you really like me to spell it out in public which would really draw attention to it? You don't seem to accept that *you* have done anything wrong. Do you think people are lying when they say they were offended? Don't you have any compassion for *their* feelings? Every time you put your case forward in this situation, you are effectively telling the whole list that other people's feelings don't matter. I think you have to accept that feelings are genuine, and that if someone is going to come forward and say what they are feeling, then that's something we simply can't ignore. Tolerance seems to be a big buzz words. You seem to suggest that it's your Jewishness that's the problem and have talked about bigotry. I think this is totally unjustified. It also shows that you are very intolerant of others in that you can't accept their feelings are true. Not to mention disrespectful by making what was meant to be a private affair into a mass dirty laundry airing. No one is asking you not to post interesting topics. I find many of your posts interesting and have learnt a lot from you. If people think you are a bore, then I'm sure that they can deal with this by hitting the delete key. But if you say things that tread into dangerous territory, then you need to think twice before you post. Try putting yourself in other people's shoes and try to see how they might interpret what you have said. If there's something you think is dodgy then either leave it out, tone it down, or add a disclaimer of some sort. We are not asking you to have different standards of behaviour on this list as anyone else - just exactly the same. Peace + Joyce :-( Importance: High Let me say first, I *really really really* appreciate all the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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