Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 I kind of feel the same way, actually. I think that one of the consequences of informed choice for all women is that some women will make decisions we wouldn't have made. Instead of criticising them for it, shouldn't we be thankful for the system that allowed them to make those choices? And I know we're not in a situation of fully informed choice for all, but nonetheless I think we should take on board that part of what we're arguing for is an environment which will give rise to a wide diversity of choices, not all of which will be ones that we would make, or necessarily approve of. In fact, it tangentially brings to mind an urban myth of my university days: on an anti-apartheid march, someone goes into a local supermarket to buy some lunch and spots an old lady selecting some South African oranges. " Oh, you can't buy those, they're from South Africa " says our hero. Whereupon the old lady puts them back, exclaiming " Eww! All those nasty black hands! " . I know this isn't quite what you meant, Emma - but still! I don't think we can necessarily criticise the woman for making a choice which some of us may disagree with. Vicki Portman http://www.plushpants.co.uk > If Zoe Ball chose to have an elective caesarean for whatever reason, > and is happy with the results, why should we comment? Just because > some women want natural, drug free non-interventionist births, it > doesn't mean everyone feels the same. Yes, there are lots of reasons > not to have a caesarean, but the facts of birth are that 20% of women > are induced (which can be horrid) and 25-40% end up with a C/section > or forceps or ventouse. Zoe Ball was just another first time mum, > open to the pressures and tales of other women, just as we all are. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 I kind of feel the same way, actually. I think that one of the consequences of informed choice for all women is that some women will make decisions we wouldn't have made. Instead of criticising them for it, shouldn't we be thankful for the system that allowed them to make those choices? And I know we're not in a situation of fully informed choice for all, but nonetheless I think we should take on board that part of what we're arguing for is an environment which will give rise to a wide diversity of choices, not all of which will be ones that we would make, or necessarily approve of. In fact, it tangentially brings to mind an urban myth of my university days: on an anti-apartheid march, someone goes into a local supermarket to buy some lunch and spots an old lady selecting some South African oranges. " Oh, you can't buy those, they're from South Africa " says our hero. Whereupon the old lady puts them back, exclaiming " Eww! All those nasty black hands! " . I know this isn't quite what you meant, Emma - but still! I don't think we can necessarily criticise the woman for making a choice which some of us may disagree with. Vicki Portman http://www.plushpants.co.uk > If Zoe Ball chose to have an elective caesarean for whatever reason, > and is happy with the results, why should we comment? Just because > some women want natural, drug free non-interventionist births, it > doesn't mean everyone feels the same. Yes, there are lots of reasons > not to have a caesarean, but the facts of birth are that 20% of women > are induced (which can be horrid) and 25-40% end up with a C/section > or forceps or ventouse. Zoe Ball was just another first time mum, > open to the pressures and tales of other women, just as we all are. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 I agree with you emma, its her life and her body! what she does with it is up to her why should we comment!! Take care Love http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-soapy-group zoe ball's caesarean If Zoe Ball chose to have an elective caesarean for whatever reason, and is happy with the results, why should we comment? Just because some women want natural, drug free non-interventionist births, it doesn't mean everyone feels the same. Yes, there are lots of reasons not to have a caesarean, but the facts of birth are that 20% of women are induced (which can be horrid) and 25-40% end up with a C/section or forceps or ventouse. Zoe Ball was just another first time mum, open to the pressures and tales of other women, just as we all are. It's hardly surprising she chose a private hospital, as it must be quite unnerving to be a famous pregnant person. The Portland has a Consultant care policy for first timers, so, like many of us she probably listened to her Dr... Research on elective caesareans found that most women were simply scared..and with childbirth the way it is who can blame them? Even when women do push for c/sections to be on certain dates, it's usually because they don't have enough support at home or other social reasons...not that they are 'too posh to push' If a woman chooses to have a c/section, surely this indicates a problem with the maternity systems and society's view of mothers, rather than anything else. Imagine how it must feel to be a woman, terrified of birth, and therefore feeling she has no option but c/section where she can at least retain an element of control. Not only does she have to recover from the surgery,with a lack of sympathy because she 'chose' this option, but she is also socially isolated as she feels that she will be looked down upon by other mums because she didn't try for a natural delivery...this is a common postnatal depression theme. I have no idea why Zoe had a c/section...and it's none of my business...I'm just pleased that she's happy Emma *** NCT enquiry line - 0 *** Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 > I agree with you emma, its her life and her body! what she does with it is up to her why should we comment!! Love > I agree to a certain extent, and to the fact that celebs deserve privacy. However, in making the programme and talking about it, she has brought the subject into the public domain. I hope that she was offered counselling to explore the feelings that she has about her mother`s experience. Regardless of what sort of birth she chooses - after all, c/s is birth and not free of pain, discomfort & complications - the event itself will have stirred up those powerful feelings for her mother. At the first c/s conference in London, I remember the panel was asked about women who request c/s, with no medical indications...- should they be allowed them? One reply was that women should be given access to counselling, to help with any underlying fears they may have. (e.g. events in past life) Barbara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 > I agree with you emma, its her life and her body! what she does with it is up to her why should we comment!! Love > I agree to a certain extent, and to the fact that celebs deserve privacy. However, in making the programme and talking about it, she has brought the subject into the public domain. I hope that she was offered counselling to explore the feelings that she has about her mother`s experience. Regardless of what sort of birth she chooses - after all, c/s is birth and not free of pain, discomfort & complications - the event itself will have stirred up those powerful feelings for her mother. At the first c/s conference in London, I remember the panel was asked about women who request c/s, with no medical indications...- should they be allowed them? One reply was that women should be given access to counselling, to help with any underlying fears they may have. (e.g. events in past life) Barbara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 Barbara, >>after all, c/s is birth and not free of pain, discomfort & complications - the event itself will have stirred up those powerful feelings for her mother. At the first c/s conference in London, I remember the panel was asked about women who request c/s, with no medical indications...- should they be allowed them? One reply was that women should be given access to counselling, to help with any underlying fears they may have. (e.g. events in past life) Barbara Too right an elective caesarean is only slightly less painfull than an emergency caesarean- I should know I had both- in that your body hasn't been through any sort of labour before hand. Neither are, in my opinion, the ideal!! Love http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-soapy-group Re: zoe ball's caesarean > I agree with you emma, its her life and her body! what she does with it is up to her why should we comment!! Love > I agree to a certain extent, and to the fact that celebs deserve privacy. However, in making the programme and talking about it, she has brought the subject into the public domain. I hope that she was offered counselling to explore the feelings that she has about her mother`s experience. Regardless of what sort of birth she chooses - after all, c/s is birth and not free of pain, discomfort & complications - the event itself will have stirred up those powerful feelings for her mother. At the first c/s conference in London, I remember the panel was asked about women who request c/s, with no medical indications...- should they be allowed them? One reply was that women should be given access to counselling, to help with any underlying fears they may have. (e.g. events in past life) Barbara *** NCT enquiry line - 0 *** Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 Barbara, Several studies have been done with anxious and fearful women. Sjogren (1991,2) found that 50% of women requesting a c/section would attempt vaginal delivery if counselled. 30% went on to need an emergency section (this was in Sweden where normal CS rates are 5%). Of those who managed a normal birth, they reported no greater satisfaction than those who elected a section. Of course there are negative effects with c/sections, but these haven't ever benn properly compared to normal delivery. A lot of the statistical significance is due to associated with c/sections such as prematurity and placental problems. Also, small 'comlications' such as bruises are recorded, while major complications, like PND are not. Women's lives are so different to how they used to be...how many of us get waited on for 40 days after birth?...it's no wonder that things change, and women want more options. Emma..whose 1st emergency c/section was the worst experience she ever had, and whose 2nd, elective section was the best!...hoping for a home waterbirth next time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 > > I agree with you emma, its her life and her body! what she does with >it is up to her why should we comment!! > Love >> > >I agree to a certain extent, and to the fact that celebs deserve >privacy. However, in making the programme and talking about it, she has >brought the subject into the public domain. >I hope that she was offered counselling to explore the feelings that she >has about her mother`s experience. Regardless of what sort of birth she >chooses - after all, c/s is >birth and not free of pain, discomfort & complications - the event >itself will have stirred up those powerful feelings for her mother. >At the first c/s conference in London, I remember the panel was asked >about women who request c/s, with no medical indications...- should they >be allowed them? One reply was that women should be given access to >counselling, to help with any underlying fears they may have. (e.g. >events in past life) >Barbara Yes - is CS always the best treatment for often very genuine problems which do need some kidn of 'treatment'? My SIL was adamant she was having a CS for her second birth, but she had a good midwife who was willing to explore this with her and went from this as her intention to domino (she went in for induction in the event but had a labour that lasted a little over an hour and was quickly home and very very happy - in a way I doubt she would have been had she been taken at her word. It's not always going to be the right way of course (and any woman can end up needing a CS whatever she started out wanting), but just saying " Fine " is like handing out painkillers for pain and not bothering to find out what is causing it. And I think it *is* useful for other people to know why (they aren't entitled to, but it can be beneficial not just nosiness) - just as the concern is that a seemingly totally elective CS is the 'wrong' kind of example, there are people who will be comforted to know that X had to have a CS for pre-eclampsia or whatever too. Obviously they may not wish people to know (In fact I do wonder if people sometimes prefer others to think they chose a CS rather than it occurring for some reason they find stigmatising, especially for a public figure - uterine anomalies, say) How does it get to be public knowledge how their baby was born anyway? -- jennifer@... Vaudin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2001 Report Share Posted August 3, 2001 In a message dated 02/08/2001 12:32:59 GMT Daylight Time, emmamcr@... writes: > I have no idea why Zoe had a c/section...and it's none of my > business...I'm just pleased that she's happy > > Emma yeh ok...but maybe she was not the best candidate to be presenting a tv show all about birth...thats what we are getting at. Everyone is scared the first time, but I find it hard to believe that Zoe lacked support, just guts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2001 Report Share Posted August 3, 2001 In a message dated 02/08/2001 12:32:59 GMT Daylight Time, emmamcr@... writes: > I have no idea why Zoe had a c/section...and it's none of my > business...I'm just pleased that she's happy > > Emma yeh ok...but maybe she was not the best candidate to be presenting a tv show all about birth...thats what we are getting at. Everyone is scared the first time, but I find it hard to believe that Zoe lacked support, just guts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2001 Report Share Posted August 3, 2001 In a message dated 02/08/2001 12:32:59 GMT Daylight Time, emmamcr@... writes: > I have no idea why Zoe had a c/section...and it's none of my > business...I'm just pleased that she's happy > > Emma yeh ok...but maybe she was not the best candidate to be presenting a tv show all about birth...thats what we are getting at. Everyone is scared the first time, but I find it hard to believe that Zoe lacked support, just guts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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