Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 In a message dated 14/06/01 20:57:26 GMT Daylight Time, nct-coffee writes: << It is said that couples who observe the laws of family purity (plus whose men are circumcised) have almost a nil percent incidence of cervical and/or penile cancer. >> This strikes a cord with me Ruthie - my father was diagnosed with penile cancer last year and has had his penis amputated as a result, however he is about to undergo further investigations because the specialists believe it may have spread (but that's another story...). In reading about it I discovered that there have been no instances of penile cancer in circumcised males. I have two sons - one (now 15) was circumcised at 3yrs because of recurring infections and my other son (almost 3) has not been and does not seem to have the same problems as his brother had pre-circumcision. I feel I would now like DS2 to have the op but my father's consultant says that it (circumcision) is too extreme - I haven't yet had a second opinion but it was really interesting to read what you said as so far all my information has come from the small print in medical books/websites. ann SAHM to (15/1/86), Kirsty (5/6//87) and Ben (11/7/98). Editor Cambridge newsletter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 In a message dated 14/06/01 20:57:26 GMT Daylight Time, nct-coffee writes: << It is said that couples who observe the laws of family purity (plus whose men are circumcised) have almost a nil percent incidence of cervical and/or penile cancer. >> This strikes a cord with me Ruthie - my father was diagnosed with penile cancer last year and has had his penis amputated as a result, however he is about to undergo further investigations because the specialists believe it may have spread (but that's another story...). In reading about it I discovered that there have been no instances of penile cancer in circumcised males. I have two sons - one (now 15) was circumcised at 3yrs because of recurring infections and my other son (almost 3) has not been and does not seem to have the same problems as his brother had pre-circumcision. I feel I would now like DS2 to have the op but my father's consultant says that it (circumcision) is too extreme - I haven't yet had a second opinion but it was really interesting to read what you said as so far all my information has come from the small print in medical books/websites. ann SAHM to (15/1/86), Kirsty (5/6//87) and Ben (11/7/98). Editor Cambridge newsletter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 This strikes a cord with me Ruthie - my father was diagnosed with penile > cancer last year and has had his penis amputated as a result, however he is > about to undergo further investigations because the specialists believe it > may have spread (but that's another story...). > In reading about it I discovered that there have been no instances of penile > cancer in circumcised males. I have two sons - one (now 15) was circumcised > at 3yrs because of recurring infections and my other son (almost 3) has not > been and does not seem to have the same problems as his brother had > pre-circumcision. I feel I would now like DS2 to have the op but my father's > consultant says that it (circumcision) is too extreme - I haven't yet had a > second opinion but it was really interesting to read what you said as so far > all my information has come from the small print in medical books/websites. > > ann SAHM to (15/1/86), Kirsty (5/6//87) and Ben (11/7/98). Editor > Cambridge newsletter How terrible for your father. Personally I think it would be a bit extreme to have your son circumcised because of this though. After all, we don't all go and get mastectomies just because one day we might get breast cancer. You could guarantee a zero rate of breast cancer if we all did that too! I think the foreskin is a vital part of a mans anatomy and would go all out to prevent any of my sons having a circumcision, even if they had problems. I don't think just cutting it off is an acceptable solution. There's some excellent diagrams showing the function of the foreskin here:- http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/ Quite surprised me just how important it is when I read it. Hannah, 27 (shall I put on my flame proof vest?) Mum to Bethany 7, Lawrence 5 1/2, Verity 3, Alfie 4 months Visit me on the web at :- http://hannahshome.20m.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 Ann I am really sorry about your father too. I hear what Hannah says about circumcision, and of course it seems to be like a sledgehammer/nut scenario, but if the foreskin was really that essential, Jewish males would be sexually dysfunctional or suffer from all kinds of sexual problems due to the lack of it, and they aren't. They are amongst the most virile and potent of men, and even though " what they don't have, they don't miss " regarding their foreskins, the men I have known haven't suffered from any lack of sexual pleasure. I don't find the " cut off the breasts then you won't have breast cancer " scenario very helpful either, as we aren't cutting off the penis, only a small part of it. There have been plenty adult Jewish males in history (including some of my own acquaintance recently after the breakdown of the Soviet Union) who have been forbidden to do circumcision, and who were prepared to go through life endangerment, hell and high water in order to fulfil our traditions. If they were that attached to their foreskins at 40 yrs old, they would have probably found a way to avoid the " snip " . I will never foget the tears of happiness on the face of one of our " Georgians " (aged 40) as he phoned home on a *very* ropey connectin to Tsiblisi to tell his wife that for the first time ever, he was " 100% Jewish. " I'm not saying you have to get your sons done to avoid what is probably a very small risk, all I am saying is, (addressed to Hannah) please don't knock our traditions and make them sound as if we had done something barbaric. This is *not* female circumcision or something which will deny our males their sexual rights forever. Our men are sexually fulfilled. Ruthie > In a message dated 14/06/01 20:57:26 GMT Daylight Time, > nct-coffee@y... writes: > > << It is said that couples who observe the laws of family > purity (plus whose men are circumcised) have almost a nil percent > incidence of cervical and/or penile cancer. >> > > This strikes a cord with me Ruthie - my father was diagnosed with penile > cancer last year and has had his penis amputated as a result, however he is > about to undergo further investigations because the specialists believe it > may have spread (but that's another story...). > In reading about it I discovered that there have been no instances of penile > cancer in circumcised males. I have two sons - one (now 15) was circumcised > at 3yrs because of recurring infections and my other son (almost 3) has not > been and does not seem to have the same problems as his brother had > pre-circumcision. I feel I would now like DS2 to have the op but my father's > consultant says that it (circumcision) is too extreme - I haven't yet had a > second opinion but it was really interesting to read what you said as so far > all my information has come from the small print in medical books/websites. > > ann SAHM to (15/1/86), Kirsty (5/6//87) and Ben (11/7/98). Editor > Cambridge newsletter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 Ann I am really sorry about your father too. I hear what Hannah says about circumcision, and of course it seems to be like a sledgehammer/nut scenario, but if the foreskin was really that essential, Jewish males would be sexually dysfunctional or suffer from all kinds of sexual problems due to the lack of it, and they aren't. They are amongst the most virile and potent of men, and even though " what they don't have, they don't miss " regarding their foreskins, the men I have known haven't suffered from any lack of sexual pleasure. I don't find the " cut off the breasts then you won't have breast cancer " scenario very helpful either, as we aren't cutting off the penis, only a small part of it. There have been plenty adult Jewish males in history (including some of my own acquaintance recently after the breakdown of the Soviet Union) who have been forbidden to do circumcision, and who were prepared to go through life endangerment, hell and high water in order to fulfil our traditions. If they were that attached to their foreskins at 40 yrs old, they would have probably found a way to avoid the " snip " . I will never foget the tears of happiness on the face of one of our " Georgians " (aged 40) as he phoned home on a *very* ropey connectin to Tsiblisi to tell his wife that for the first time ever, he was " 100% Jewish. " I'm not saying you have to get your sons done to avoid what is probably a very small risk, all I am saying is, (addressed to Hannah) please don't knock our traditions and make them sound as if we had done something barbaric. This is *not* female circumcision or something which will deny our males their sexual rights forever. Our men are sexually fulfilled. Ruthie > In a message dated 14/06/01 20:57:26 GMT Daylight Time, > nct-coffee@y... writes: > > << It is said that couples who observe the laws of family > purity (plus whose men are circumcised) have almost a nil percent > incidence of cervical and/or penile cancer. >> > > This strikes a cord with me Ruthie - my father was diagnosed with penile > cancer last year and has had his penis amputated as a result, however he is > about to undergo further investigations because the specialists believe it > may have spread (but that's another story...). > In reading about it I discovered that there have been no instances of penile > cancer in circumcised males. I have two sons - one (now 15) was circumcised > at 3yrs because of recurring infections and my other son (almost 3) has not > been and does not seem to have the same problems as his brother had > pre-circumcision. I feel I would now like DS2 to have the op but my father's > consultant says that it (circumcision) is too extreme - I haven't yet had a > second opinion but it was really interesting to read what you said as so far > all my information has come from the small print in medical books/websites. > > ann SAHM to (15/1/86), Kirsty (5/6//87) and Ben (11/7/98). Editor > Cambridge newsletter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hannah wrote: Personally I think it would be a bit extreme > to have your son circumcised because of this though. After all, we don't > all go and get mastectomies just because one day we might get breast cancer. > You could guarantee a zero rate of breast cancer if we all did that too!>>>>>>>> I don't know much at all about penile cancer, I had not heard of it before Ruthie mentioned it. However some cancers do " run " in families and breast cancer is one that does spring to mind. I know of people who have had their breasts removed in the hope of avoiding the cancer. If penile cancer does " run " in families then I can understand the thoughts of having the child circumcised to minimilse the risk of developing cancer. The foreskin does seem to play such a small part whereas breasts do have a function in life. Trisha SAHM to 3 boys - 1 of which is circumcised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hannah wrote: Personally I think it would be a bit extreme > to have your son circumcised because of this though. After all, we don't > all go and get mastectomies just because one day we might get breast cancer. > You could guarantee a zero rate of breast cancer if we all did that too!>>>>>>>> I don't know much at all about penile cancer, I had not heard of it before Ruthie mentioned it. However some cancers do " run " in families and breast cancer is one that does spring to mind. I know of people who have had their breasts removed in the hope of avoiding the cancer. If penile cancer does " run " in families then I can understand the thoughts of having the child circumcised to minimilse the risk of developing cancer. The foreskin does seem to play such a small part whereas breasts do have a function in life. Trisha SAHM to 3 boys - 1 of which is circumcised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hannah wrote: Personally I think it would be a bit extreme > to have your son circumcised because of this though. After all, we don't > all go and get mastectomies just because one day we might get breast cancer. > You could guarantee a zero rate of breast cancer if we all did that too!>>>>>>>> I don't know much at all about penile cancer, I had not heard of it before Ruthie mentioned it. However some cancers do " run " in families and breast cancer is one that does spring to mind. I know of people who have had their breasts removed in the hope of avoiding the cancer. If penile cancer does " run " in families then I can understand the thoughts of having the child circumcised to minimilse the risk of developing cancer. The foreskin does seem to play such a small part whereas breasts do have a function in life. Trisha SAHM to 3 boys - 1 of which is circumcised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 I don't mean to knock your traditions Ruthie (honestly!) I find your posts > very interesting and I think it must be wonderful to be part of such a tight > knit group of people where everyone knows the rules, and holds the same > beliefs and values (I hope you see what I mean - struggled wording what I > was trying to say) > > I can't deny I do feel strongly about this particlar issue - but I am > entitled to an opinion! I was really addressing my post to the person who > was considering a circumcision for medical reasons. Of course you are entitled to your opinion Hannah. I guess I just felt defensive due to that referral to the web page listing all the reasons the foreskin was so vital. One thing about Judaism I hope you will agree, we don't evangelise, and whatever we believe, we don't try and make other's believe in it too. But by the same token we don't like being talked *out of* our beliefs either! Sorry if I have misinterpreted you Hannah :-)) Ruthie > Hannah, 27 > Mum to Bethany 7, Lawrence 5 1/2, Verity 3, Alfie 4 months > > Visit me on the web at :- > http://hannahshome.20m.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 > and make other's believe in it too. But by the same token we don't > like being talked *out of* our beliefs either! Gosh. I can't believe that *I* used a greengrocer's apostrophe!!! (other's) BLUSH!! Ruthie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 > and make other's believe in it too. But by the same token we don't > like being talked *out of* our beliefs either! Gosh. I can't believe that *I* used a greengrocer's apostrophe!!! (other's) BLUSH!! Ruthie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 > and make other's believe in it too. But by the same token we don't > like being talked *out of* our beliefs either! Gosh. I can't believe that *I* used a greengrocer's apostrophe!!! (other's) BLUSH!! Ruthie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 >Ann I am really sorry about your father too. > >I hear what Hannah says about circumcision, and of course it seems to >be like a sledgehammer/nut scenario, but if the foreskin was really >that essential, Jewish males would be sexually dysfunctional or suffer >from all kinds of sexual problems due to the lack of it, and they >aren't. They are amongst the most virile and potent of men, Oh Ruthie, in the words of Cronk, well known independent midwife " Would you like to reconsider what you have just said? " Yesterday you appeared to liken straying from the practices of orthodox Judaism to a 'virulent' infection and to concentration camps, starvation, humiliation and death - deliberate extermination (I do accept that what can amount to a loss/death of spiritual self is a serious matter and that there is a sense in which it is more distressing than martyrdom) and now this (though I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge on the subject of the virility and potency of men of any group, I do only have a small sample to go on :-))))). I know you are very proud of your religion and I love hearing about your life and faith, just as I've been interested in the recent discussion on first communion for Catholics, but... (or was it meant tongue in cheek, in which case pardon my misunderstanding) -- jennifer@... Vaudin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 >Ann I am really sorry about your father too. > >I hear what Hannah says about circumcision, and of course it seems to >be like a sledgehammer/nut scenario, but if the foreskin was really >that essential, Jewish males would be sexually dysfunctional or suffer >from all kinds of sexual problems due to the lack of it, and they >aren't. They are amongst the most virile and potent of men, Oh Ruthie, in the words of Cronk, well known independent midwife " Would you like to reconsider what you have just said? " Yesterday you appeared to liken straying from the practices of orthodox Judaism to a 'virulent' infection and to concentration camps, starvation, humiliation and death - deliberate extermination (I do accept that what can amount to a loss/death of spiritual self is a serious matter and that there is a sense in which it is more distressing than martyrdom) and now this (though I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge on the subject of the virility and potency of men of any group, I do only have a small sample to go on :-))))). I know you are very proud of your religion and I love hearing about your life and faith, just as I've been interested in the recent discussion on first communion for Catholics, but... (or was it meant tongue in cheek, in which case pardon my misunderstanding) -- jennifer@... Vaudin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 Oh Ruthie, in the words of Cronk, well known independent midwife > " Would you like to reconsider what you have just said? " > > Yesterday you appeared to liken straying from the practices of > orthodox Judaism to a 'virulent' infection and to concentration > camps, starvation, humiliation and death - deliberate extermination > (I do accept that what can amount to a loss/death of spiritual self > is a serious matter and that there is a sense in which it is more > distressing than martyrdom) and now this (though I'll have to bow to > your superior knowledge on the subject of the virility and potency of > men of any group, I do only have a small sample to go on :-))))). I > know you are very proud of your religion and I love hearing about > your life and faith, just as I've been interested in the recent > discussion on first communion for Catholics, but... > > (or was it meant tongue in cheek, in which case pardon my misunderstanding) UM! Er.. *cough* I think all I wanted to say was, circumcision isn't a mutilation resulting in loss of function! Each to their own! Ruthie thinks she had better *really* keep her mouth shut... > Vaudin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 Oh Ruthie, in the words of Cronk, well known independent midwife > " Would you like to reconsider what you have just said? " > > Yesterday you appeared to liken straying from the practices of > orthodox Judaism to a 'virulent' infection and to concentration > camps, starvation, humiliation and death - deliberate extermination > (I do accept that what can amount to a loss/death of spiritual self > is a serious matter and that there is a sense in which it is more > distressing than martyrdom) and now this (though I'll have to bow to > your superior knowledge on the subject of the virility and potency of > men of any group, I do only have a small sample to go on :-))))). I > know you are very proud of your religion and I love hearing about > your life and faith, just as I've been interested in the recent > discussion on first communion for Catholics, but... > > (or was it meant tongue in cheek, in which case pardon my misunderstanding) UM! Er.. *cough* I think all I wanted to say was, circumcision isn't a mutilation resulting in loss of function! Each to their own! Ruthie thinks she had better *really* keep her mouth shut... > Vaudin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2001 Report Share Posted June 16, 2001 > Oh Ruthie, in the words of Cronk, well known independent >midwife > > " Would you like to reconsider what you have just said? " >UM! Er.. *cough* > >I think all I wanted to say was, circumcision isn't a mutilation >resulting in loss of function! There you go, we're all happy now. (I was actually a tad concerned for your sons that if they felt they were expected to be more virile and potent than the average male!) >Ruthie thinks she had better *really* keep her mouth shut... That's why God gave you the Sabbath :-))))) (My grandfather was fairly (Methodist) Sabbatarian - my granny used to joke that he wouldn't even let her 'spend a penny' I am right with you that there are often sound reasons for practices - I have a strong suspicion that the Methodist side of my family is genetically as well as religiously unable to handle alcohol well) -- jennifer@... Vaudin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2001 Report Share Posted June 17, 2001 Ruthie thinks she had better *really* keep her mouth shut... > > That's why God gave you the Sabbath :-))))) > > (My grandfather was fairly (Methodist) Sabbatarian - my granny used > to joke that he wouldn't even let her 'spend a penny' I am right with > you that there are often sound reasons for practices - I have a > strong suspicion that the Methodist side of my family is genetically > as well as religiously unable to handle alcohol well) Vaudin Some of our practices do have reasons of course. Some don't have any (apparent ones, anyway). For example, the prohibition against shellfish *may* have had something to do with food poisoning as crustaceans are more prevalent to contamination? I don't want to get into this, tbh. And do we really need to work out why the Sabbath is a good idea? Because our Sabbath laws are so strict, we really *do* completely switch off and relax one day out of seven, and it's heavenly. Ruthie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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