Re: My teenager..sorry long...

[Guest guest]

> I apologise for opening what could be a difficult debate. Perhaps

> we should conclude it by giving our children an extra hug today

> and a little silent prayer or thought for the 19 small children who

> died - along with the hundred or so fathers, mothers, daughters

> and sons.

> Caroline

I had a row with Yeshaya this morning. And a badly timed row too, it

is his 16th birthday. I just couldnt stop myself.

You see, Jewish boys (in particular boys, girls have a lesser

obligation) have an obligation to say prayers 3 times a day, and

*ought* to go to synagogue(we call it " shul " ) at least in the morning.

Since he's been home on study leave he's only gone to shul on

Sabbath, not during the week at all. OK so he says his prayers at

home, not the end of the world...but does he say them at all?

This morning I kind of did a Bond on him; rigged something he

uses for his prayers, to find out if he'd moved it, which he would

have had to move in order to say them. I found it where I'd left it,

and when I asked him about it, of course we had a row, when he accused

me of spying on him, not trusting him,

etc etc.

I dont suppose many of you will understand what it means to us, but

the prayers are v. important. But what is worse is the feeling that I

can't trust him when he says something. He stomped off to his maths

GCSE in a temper, leaving me in tears feeling terrible. I spent most

of the morning crying and speaking to Tavya, who, despite being my

second youngest of the 5 daughters, is wise counsel.

She said

1. We should leave the Parental Lecure[tm] for tomorrow, ie not on his

birthday.

2. That we should find some inducement to get him to go to shul

services in the morning, for as long as he says his prayers (or doesnt

say them) at home, he will probably try and wriggle out of them or say

the minimum if that. She suggested the inducement should be going easy

on his phone bill negotiations but DH isnt prepared to do that, as he

put it " its like saying he can have some drugs if he goes to

shul! "

I dont know what the inducement should be, maybe straightforward

financial, not tied to his phone bill, if he wants to save it for

that, thats his business. I know he shouldnt be *paid* to go to what

should be his duty, but we want him to get into the habit of going

again...anyone have any other ideas?

Anyway I was dreading fetching him from his exam to take him to his

BCG injection, expecting sulks and silence, or more row, but to my

surprise he behaved almost as if this morning hadn't happened. I

didn't mention it again, not wanting to nag or harp on his birthday.

I suggested lunch out but after the injection he just wanted to

come home.

Later, his friend came round, and then DH phoned me from my MIL's

house just up the road, she's in her mid 80's and in a bit of a state

cos some workmen are doing things in her place. I asked Yeshaya and

friend if they could go round to my MIL's and keep her company and to

my amazement off they went, carrying a game of Risk, like angels the

two of them.

I don't know if that's his way of saying sorry for this morning, but

the issue hasn't been resolved, I still don't think he did say any

prayers, but DH will speak to him about it tomorrow I expect, see how

he can get him back to shul. Also Yeshaya has this madcap idea (since

all the organised post GCSE school trips to Israel were cancelled due

to the volatile situation out there) to organise his own, with a few

mates, staying in our house in Jerusalem, with a couple of older boys

as supervisors. We aren't keen on this idea to put it mildly but tbh

I don't think he is going to find any older boys willing to take on

the responsibility. But as DH will no doubt say to Yeshaya : " how can

we trust you to do the right thing and behave, out there in

our Jerusalem home, if we can't trust you here? "

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

> I apologise for opening what could be a difficult debate. Perhaps

> we should conclude it by giving our children an extra hug today

> and a little silent prayer or thought for the 19 small children who

> died - along with the hundred or so fathers, mothers, daughters

> and sons.

> Caroline

I had a row with Yeshaya this morning. And a badly timed row too, it

is his 16th birthday. I just couldnt stop myself.

You see, Jewish boys (in particular boys, girls have a lesser

obligation) have an obligation to say prayers 3 times a day, and

*ought* to go to synagogue(we call it " shul " ) at least in the morning.

Since he's been home on study leave he's only gone to shul on

Sabbath, not during the week at all. OK so he says his prayers at

home, not the end of the world...but does he say them at all?

This morning I kind of did a Bond on him; rigged something he

uses for his prayers, to find out if he'd moved it, which he would

have had to move in order to say them. I found it where I'd left it,

and when I asked him about it, of course we had a row, when he accused

me of spying on him, not trusting him,

etc etc.

I dont suppose many of you will understand what it means to us, but

the prayers are v. important. But what is worse is the feeling that I

can't trust him when he says something. He stomped off to his maths

GCSE in a temper, leaving me in tears feeling terrible. I spent most

of the morning crying and speaking to Tavya, who, despite being my

second youngest of the 5 daughters, is wise counsel.

She said

1. We should leave the Parental Lecure[tm] for tomorrow, ie not on his

birthday.

2. That we should find some inducement to get him to go to shul

services in the morning, for as long as he says his prayers (or doesnt

say them) at home, he will probably try and wriggle out of them or say

the minimum if that. She suggested the inducement should be going easy

on his phone bill negotiations but DH isnt prepared to do that, as he

put it " its like saying he can have some drugs if he goes to

shul! "

I dont know what the inducement should be, maybe straightforward

financial, not tied to his phone bill, if he wants to save it for

that, thats his business. I know he shouldnt be *paid* to go to what

should be his duty, but we want him to get into the habit of going

again...anyone have any other ideas?

Anyway I was dreading fetching him from his exam to take him to his

BCG injection, expecting sulks and silence, or more row, but to my

surprise he behaved almost as if this morning hadn't happened. I

didn't mention it again, not wanting to nag or harp on his birthday.

I suggested lunch out but after the injection he just wanted to

come home.

Later, his friend came round, and then DH phoned me from my MIL's

house just up the road, she's in her mid 80's and in a bit of a state

cos some workmen are doing things in her place. I asked Yeshaya and

friend if they could go round to my MIL's and keep her company and to

my amazement off they went, carrying a game of Risk, like angels the

two of them.

I don't know if that's his way of saying sorry for this morning, but

the issue hasn't been resolved, I still don't think he did say any

prayers, but DH will speak to him about it tomorrow I expect, see how

he can get him back to shul. Also Yeshaya has this madcap idea (since

all the organised post GCSE school trips to Israel were cancelled due

to the volatile situation out there) to organise his own, with a few

mates, staying in our house in Jerusalem, with a couple of older boys

as supervisors. We aren't keen on this idea to put it mildly but tbh

I don't think he is going to find any older boys willing to take on

the responsibility. But as DH will no doubt say to Yeshaya : " how can

we trust you to do the right thing and behave, out there in

our Jerusalem home, if we can't trust you here? "

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

> I apologise for opening what could be a difficult debate. Perhaps

> we should conclude it by giving our children an extra hug today

> and a little silent prayer or thought for the 19 small children who

> died - along with the hundred or so fathers, mothers, daughters

> and sons.

> Caroline

I had a row with Yeshaya this morning. And a badly timed row too, it

is his 16th birthday. I just couldnt stop myself.

You see, Jewish boys (in particular boys, girls have a lesser

obligation) have an obligation to say prayers 3 times a day, and

*ought* to go to synagogue(we call it " shul " ) at least in the morning.

Since he's been home on study leave he's only gone to shul on

Sabbath, not during the week at all. OK so he says his prayers at

home, not the end of the world...but does he say them at all?

This morning I kind of did a Bond on him; rigged something he

uses for his prayers, to find out if he'd moved it, which he would

have had to move in order to say them. I found it where I'd left it,

and when I asked him about it, of course we had a row, when he accused

me of spying on him, not trusting him,

etc etc.

I dont suppose many of you will understand what it means to us, but

the prayers are v. important. But what is worse is the feeling that I

can't trust him when he says something. He stomped off to his maths

GCSE in a temper, leaving me in tears feeling terrible. I spent most

of the morning crying and speaking to Tavya, who, despite being my

second youngest of the 5 daughters, is wise counsel.

She said

1. We should leave the Parental Lecure[tm] for tomorrow, ie not on his

birthday.

2. That we should find some inducement to get him to go to shul

services in the morning, for as long as he says his prayers (or doesnt

say them) at home, he will probably try and wriggle out of them or say

the minimum if that. She suggested the inducement should be going easy

on his phone bill negotiations but DH isnt prepared to do that, as he

put it " its like saying he can have some drugs if he goes to

shul! "

I dont know what the inducement should be, maybe straightforward

financial, not tied to his phone bill, if he wants to save it for

that, thats his business. I know he shouldnt be *paid* to go to what

should be his duty, but we want him to get into the habit of going

again...anyone have any other ideas?

Anyway I was dreading fetching him from his exam to take him to his

BCG injection, expecting sulks and silence, or more row, but to my

surprise he behaved almost as if this morning hadn't happened. I

didn't mention it again, not wanting to nag or harp on his birthday.

I suggested lunch out but after the injection he just wanted to

come home.

Later, his friend came round, and then DH phoned me from my MIL's

house just up the road, she's in her mid 80's and in a bit of a state

cos some workmen are doing things in her place. I asked Yeshaya and

friend if they could go round to my MIL's and keep her company and to

my amazement off they went, carrying a game of Risk, like angels the

two of them.

I don't know if that's his way of saying sorry for this morning, but

the issue hasn't been resolved, I still don't think he did say any

prayers, but DH will speak to him about it tomorrow I expect, see how

he can get him back to shul. Also Yeshaya has this madcap idea (since

all the organised post GCSE school trips to Israel were cancelled due

to the volatile situation out there) to organise his own, with a few

mates, staying in our house in Jerusalem, with a couple of older boys

as supervisors. We aren't keen on this idea to put it mildly but tbh

I don't think he is going to find any older boys willing to take on

the responsibility. But as DH will no doubt say to Yeshaya : " how can

we trust you to do the right thing and behave, out there in

our Jerusalem home, if we can't trust you here? "

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

> You see, Jewish boys (in particular boys, girls have a lesser

> obligation) have an obligation to say prayers 3 times a day, and

> *ought* to go to synagogue(we call it " shul " ) at least in the morning.

> Since he's been home on study leave he's only gone to shul on

> Sabbath, not during the week at all. OK so he says his prayers at

> home, not the end of the world...but does he say them at all?

Ruthie,

I don't understand why it's your responsibility to make sure he says his

prayers?

I thought a bar mitzvah was when boys take on the responsibility for

fulfilling their religious obligations for themselves.

Does it detract from the value of the prayers if he's resenting doing them?

If not at 13, then at what age will he become responsible for saying prayers

himself?

Hannah, 27

Mum to Bethany 7, Lawrence 5 1/2, Verity 3, Alfie 3 months

Visit me on the web at :-

http://hannahshome.20m.com

[Guest guest]

> You see, Jewish boys (in particular boys, girls have a lesser

> obligation) have an obligation to say prayers 3 times a day, and

> *ought* to go to synagogue(we call it " shul " ) at least in the morning.

> Since he's been home on study leave he's only gone to shul on

> Sabbath, not during the week at all. OK so he says his prayers at

> home, not the end of the world...but does he say them at all?

Ruthie,

I don't understand why it's your responsibility to make sure he says his

prayers?

I thought a bar mitzvah was when boys take on the responsibility for

fulfilling their religious obligations for themselves.

Does it detract from the value of the prayers if he's resenting doing them?

If not at 13, then at what age will he become responsible for saying prayers

himself?

Hannah, 27

Mum to Bethany 7, Lawrence 5 1/2, Verity 3, Alfie 3 months

Visit me on the web at :-

http://hannahshome.20m.com

[Guest guest]

> I don't understand why it's your responsibility to make sure he says

his

> prayers?

>

> I thought a bar mitzvah was when boys take on the responsibility for

> fulfilling their religious obligations for themselves.

>

> Does it detract from the value of the prayers if he's resenting

doing them?

>

> If not at 13, then at what age will he become responsible for saying

prayers

> himself?

You're right, but whereas we don't have a responsibility to *make* him

say them, and if he doesn't say them, it's his " black mark " , not ours,

we still have a responsibility of guidance and education and example.

If we show a " we don't really mind what you do, dear, it's up to you

now, " attitude, we would be failing in our duties of guidance.

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

Ruthie

Could you not sit down and talk with him. Say yes you did " spy " on him but you

did this because you where worried and what you find have left you feeling awful

as it makes you feel that you are failing in making him understand his

responsibilities.. (I am sure you can put it more eloquently than that ;o) )..

I remember as a teenager what got to me the most was when my father would

actually talk to me as a person not as a child and explain to me why he felt

certain ways and why this or that was important to him.. (his 3rd wife was a

good influence on him LOL) My mother never did this it was always DO as I say

or else.. (left home at 16 wonder why.....)

I guess what I am saying is that if you can make him see that by not saying his

prayers he is not only letting himself down but also you his dad and his entire

family.. Might be worth a try.. (he sounds like a good kid when you speak about

him ;o) )

Lonnie Phoebe & Eloisa's mama

& expecting a Christmas delivery...

My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what you

start.

So far today, I have finished 2 bags of chips and a Chocolate cake.

I feel better already.

Re: Re: My teenager..sorry long...

> You see, Jewish boys (in particular boys, girls have a lesser

> obligation) have an obligation to say prayers 3 times a day, and

> *ought* to go to synagogue(we call it " shul " ) at least in the morning.

> Since he's been home on study leave he's only gone to shul on

> Sabbath, not during the week at all. OK so he says his prayers at

> home, not the end of the world...but does he say them at all?

Ruthie,

I don't understand why it's your responsibility to make sure he says his

prayers?

I thought a bar mitzvah was when boys take on the responsibility for

fulfilling their religious obligations for themselves.

Does it detract from the value of the prayers if he's resenting doing them?

If not at 13, then at what age will he become responsible for saying prayers

himself?

Hannah, 27

Mum to Bethany 7, Lawrence 5 1/2, Verity 3, Alfie 3 months

Visit me on the web at :-

http://hannahshome.20m.com

[Guest guest]

Ruthie

Could you not sit down and talk with him. Say yes you did " spy " on him but you

did this because you where worried and what you find have left you feeling awful

as it makes you feel that you are failing in making him understand his

responsibilities.. (I am sure you can put it more eloquently than that ;o) )..

I remember as a teenager what got to me the most was when my father would

actually talk to me as a person not as a child and explain to me why he felt

certain ways and why this or that was important to him.. (his 3rd wife was a

good influence on him LOL) My mother never did this it was always DO as I say

or else.. (left home at 16 wonder why.....)

I guess what I am saying is that if you can make him see that by not saying his

prayers he is not only letting himself down but also you his dad and his entire

family.. Might be worth a try.. (he sounds like a good kid when you speak about

him ;o) )

Lonnie Phoebe & Eloisa's mama

& expecting a Christmas delivery...

My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what you

start.

So far today, I have finished 2 bags of chips and a Chocolate cake.

I feel better already.

Re: Re: My teenager..sorry long...

> You see, Jewish boys (in particular boys, girls have a lesser

> obligation) have an obligation to say prayers 3 times a day, and

> *ought* to go to synagogue(we call it " shul " ) at least in the morning.

> Since he's been home on study leave he's only gone to shul on

> Sabbath, not during the week at all. OK so he says his prayers at

> home, not the end of the world...but does he say them at all?

Ruthie,

I don't understand why it's your responsibility to make sure he says his

prayers?

I thought a bar mitzvah was when boys take on the responsibility for

fulfilling their religious obligations for themselves.

Does it detract from the value of the prayers if he's resenting doing them?

If not at 13, then at what age will he become responsible for saying prayers

himself?

Hannah, 27

Mum to Bethany 7, Lawrence 5 1/2, Verity 3, Alfie 3 months

Visit me on the web at :-

http://hannahshome.20m.com