Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " david.allman@...> wrote: > By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, > patient care ultimately suffers. Well, I agreed with you up until this statement. It is EMS being kept in the " public safety triad " that results in the second-class citizenship you are bemoaning. Remove us from public safety, and we can no longer be made step-children by the firemen. Sorry Greg, but I don't see that EMS needs the fire service any more than any other citizen does. I was riding the ambulance for many years before the firemen decided they needed to " first respond " to everything, and I never saw it as a problem. If the fire department gets to a scene faster, it is not because they possess some great capability or strategy than EMS. It is because money that should be allocated to EMS is instead being misallocated to first responders. If you fund and staff EMS adequately, then response times are not an issue, no matter who is running them. The only intervention that is consistently proven to be of significant benefit to our patients is transportation. If the FD is not doing that, then they are taking away from quality care. If they are transporting, then they are setting up an entire system to do so, when there was already such a system in place. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " david.allman@...> wrote: > By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, > patient care ultimately suffers. Well, I agreed with you up until this statement. It is EMS being kept in the " public safety triad " that results in the second-class citizenship you are bemoaning. Remove us from public safety, and we can no longer be made step-children by the firemen. Sorry Greg, but I don't see that EMS needs the fire service any more than any other citizen does. I was riding the ambulance for many years before the firemen decided they needed to " first respond " to everything, and I never saw it as a problem. If the fire department gets to a scene faster, it is not because they possess some great capability or strategy than EMS. It is because money that should be allocated to EMS is instead being misallocated to first responders. If you fund and staff EMS adequately, then response times are not an issue, no matter who is running them. The only intervention that is consistently proven to be of significant benefit to our patients is transportation. If the FD is not doing that, then they are taking away from quality care. If they are transporting, then they are setting up an entire system to do so, when there was already such a system in place. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 I was going to stay out of this until I viewed some of the comments. I have been in EMS since the 70's and have participated in Fire and Hospital based EMS. Most of the comments are a bunch of BS.... It doesn't really matter who provides EMS as long as the person that needs EMS is taken care of. Do you really think that a person laying sick or injured is thinking I hope it is a FD EMS or a Private EMS, they really don't care as long as they are taken care of in a timely manner. Any one can make and argument for either type service. Neither is better than the other. It all depends on how the service is set up and whether or not the people that are involved in the operations care about the type of service they want to provide and the people hired to operate the ambulance care about the job they perform. That will make the difference. There are many ways to fund EMS. Some cities throughout the US have been providing EMS for over 40-45 years, long before private EMS. In some cases yes FD EMS can provide faster responses and more resource due to the funding streams, but not always. Cities are not looking for a profit to put in someones back pocket, they are actually thinking of their citizens and spending some of the monies from those citizens to provide a service. What we should ALL be doing is making sure we are making a difference for OUR patients regardless of type of service and if we are not then find a way to make it happen. Ricky The information contained in this email is meant solely for the intended recipient. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, is prohibited and may be unlawful. No liability or responsibility is accepted if information or data is, for whatever reason, corrupted or does not reach its intended recipient. No warranty is given that this email is free of viruses. The views expressed in this email are, unless otherwise stated, those of the author and not those of the City of ville or its management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 I was going to stay out of this until I viewed some of the comments. I have been in EMS since the 70's and have participated in Fire and Hospital based EMS. Most of the comments are a bunch of BS.... It doesn't really matter who provides EMS as long as the person that needs EMS is taken care of. Do you really think that a person laying sick or injured is thinking I hope it is a FD EMS or a Private EMS, they really don't care as long as they are taken care of in a timely manner. Any one can make and argument for either type service. Neither is better than the other. It all depends on how the service is set up and whether or not the people that are involved in the operations care about the type of service they want to provide and the people hired to operate the ambulance care about the job they perform. That will make the difference. There are many ways to fund EMS. Some cities throughout the US have been providing EMS for over 40-45 years, long before private EMS. In some cases yes FD EMS can provide faster responses and more resource due to the funding streams, but not always. Cities are not looking for a profit to put in someones back pocket, they are actually thinking of their citizens and spending some of the monies from those citizens to provide a service. What we should ALL be doing is making sure we are making a difference for OUR patients regardless of type of service and if we are not then find a way to make it happen. Ricky The information contained in this email is meant solely for the intended recipient. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, is prohibited and may be unlawful. No liability or responsibility is accepted if information or data is, for whatever reason, corrupted or does not reach its intended recipient. No warranty is given that this email is free of viruses. The views expressed in this email are, unless otherwise stated, those of the author and not those of the City of ville or its management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 What Chief Reeves said. And for the record, ville's fire-based EMS system is an organization that I'd be proud to be associated with or to take care of my loved ones. Truth is, there are some phenomenal EMS systems of every type and some crummy systems of every type. To me, the determining factors of EMS success are a commitment to high quality EMS care and an active, involved medical director. From my own personal experience, ville has that down pat, regardless of whether they are fire based or not. Wes " not a firefighter " Ogilvie Sent from my iPad > I was going to stay out of this until I viewed some of the comments. I have > been in EMS since the 70's and have participated in Fire and Hospital based > EMS. Most of the comments are a bunch of BS.... > It doesn't really matter who provides EMS as long as the person that needs > EMS is taken care of. Do you really think that a person laying sick or > injured is thinking I hope it is a FD EMS or a Private EMS, they really > don't care as long as they are taken care of in a timely manner. > Any one can make and argument for either type service. Neither is better > than the other. It all depends on how the service is set up and whether or > not the people that are involved in the operations care about the type of > service they want to provide and the people hired to operate the ambulance > care about the job they perform. That will make the difference. > There are many ways to fund EMS. Some cities throughout the US have been > providing EMS for over 40-45 years, long before private EMS. In some cases > yes FD EMS can provide faster responses and more resource due to the funding > streams, but not always. Cities are not looking for a profit to put in > someones back pocket, they are actually thinking of their citizens and > spending some of the monies from those citizens to provide a service. > What we should ALL be doing is making sure we are making a difference for > OUR patients regardless of type of service and if we are not then find a way > to make it happen. > > Ricky > > The information contained in this email is meant solely for the intended recipient. > Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, > any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, > is prohibited and may be unlawful. No liability or responsibility is accepted if information > or data is, for whatever reason, corrupted or does not reach its intended recipient. > No warranty is given that this email is free of viruses. The views expressed in this email are, > unless otherwise stated, those of the author and not those of the City of ville or its management. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 What Chief Reeves said. And for the record, ville's fire-based EMS system is an organization that I'd be proud to be associated with or to take care of my loved ones. Truth is, there are some phenomenal EMS systems of every type and some crummy systems of every type. To me, the determining factors of EMS success are a commitment to high quality EMS care and an active, involved medical director. From my own personal experience, ville has that down pat, regardless of whether they are fire based or not. Wes " not a firefighter " Ogilvie Sent from my iPad > I was going to stay out of this until I viewed some of the comments. I have > been in EMS since the 70's and have participated in Fire and Hospital based > EMS. Most of the comments are a bunch of BS.... > It doesn't really matter who provides EMS as long as the person that needs > EMS is taken care of. Do you really think that a person laying sick or > injured is thinking I hope it is a FD EMS or a Private EMS, they really > don't care as long as they are taken care of in a timely manner. > Any one can make and argument for either type service. Neither is better > than the other. It all depends on how the service is set up and whether or > not the people that are involved in the operations care about the type of > service they want to provide and the people hired to operate the ambulance > care about the job they perform. That will make the difference. > There are many ways to fund EMS. Some cities throughout the US have been > providing EMS for over 40-45 years, long before private EMS. In some cases > yes FD EMS can provide faster responses and more resource due to the funding > streams, but not always. Cities are not looking for a profit to put in > someones back pocket, they are actually thinking of their citizens and > spending some of the monies from those citizens to provide a service. > What we should ALL be doing is making sure we are making a difference for > OUR patients regardless of type of service and if we are not then find a way > to make it happen. > > Ricky > > The information contained in this email is meant solely for the intended recipient. > Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, > any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, > is prohibited and may be unlawful. No liability or responsibility is accepted if information > or data is, for whatever reason, corrupted or does not reach its intended recipient. > No warranty is given that this email is free of viruses. The views expressed in this email are, > unless otherwise stated, those of the author and not those of the City of ville or its management. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 I remember before the fire department started first responding here in Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... some people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the paramedics. One side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff so another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: aggiesrwe03@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours because the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops across the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to Cowtown...... See this can be what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the ambulance!!! A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your customers today?? -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " david.allman@...> wrote: > Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at > " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time > being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. > > > > Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that may > be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the > necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself to > a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass > the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum > score of 70. > > > > No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, public > safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety > consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies are > absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is > untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and > EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that have > openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many > agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many agencies, > paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a career > firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you know > who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't > know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on > the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, the > job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is simply > no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he > chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to the > resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department is > handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget > will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are > increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the FD > has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, > ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and therefore > provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside > funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, with > no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire > department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. > > > > I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an > EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am > though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an EMT > with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system that > covers over 125,000 people. > > > > By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, > patient care ultimately suffers. > > > > ~DA > > > > _____ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of Romy son > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Fire based EMS > > > > > > Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments get > there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed better > placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, > master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, training > and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have " dumbed > down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and certification > hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private owned > Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my > experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire > based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of > separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few more > trades and hit the gym. > > Romy son > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 > 01:37:00 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 I remember before the fire department started first responding here in Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... some people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the paramedics. One side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff so another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: aggiesrwe03@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours because the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops across the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to Cowtown...... See this can be what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the ambulance!!! A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your customers today?? -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " david.allman@...> wrote: > Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at > " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time > being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. > > > > Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that may > be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the > necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself to > a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass > the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum > score of 70. > > > > No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, public > safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety > consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies are > absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is > untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and > EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that have > openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many > agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many agencies, > paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a career > firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you know > who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't > know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on > the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, the > job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is simply > no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he > chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to the > resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department is > handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget > will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are > increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the FD > has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, > ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and therefore > provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside > funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, with > no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire > department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. > > > > I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an > EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am > though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an EMT > with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system that > covers over 125,000 people. > > > > By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, > patient care ultimately suffers. > > > > ~DA > > > > _____ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of Romy son > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Fire based EMS > > > > > > Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments get > there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed better > placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, > master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, training > and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have " dumbed > down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and certification > hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private owned > Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my > experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire > based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of > separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few more > trades and hit the gym. > > Romy son > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 > 01:37:00 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my better judgement. Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit already certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City did something similar years ago as well. The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same basket. To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (Office) (Office Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, turnbow31@... writes: I remember before the fire department started first responding here in Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... some people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the paramedics. One side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff so another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: aggiesrwe03@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours because the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops across the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to Cowtown...... See this can be what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the ambulance!!! A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your customers today?? -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " wrote: > Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at > " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time > being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. > > > > Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that may > be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the > necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself to > a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass > the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum > score of 70. > > > > No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, public > safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety > consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies are > absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is > untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and > EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that have > openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many > agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many agencies, > paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a career > firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you know > who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't > know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on > the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, the > job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is simply > no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he > chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to the > resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department is > handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget > will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are > increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the FD > has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, > ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and therefore > provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside > funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, with > no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire > department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. > > > > I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an > EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am > though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an EMT > with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system that > covers over 125,000 people. > > > > By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, > patient care ultimately suffers. > > > > ~DA > > > > _____ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of Romy son > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Fire based EMS > > > > > > Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments get > there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed better > placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, > master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, training > and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have " dumbed > down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and certification > hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private owned > Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my > experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire > based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of > separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few more > trades and hit the gym. > > Romy son > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 > 01:37:00 > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Thank you Louis! From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of lnmolino@... Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:48 PM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Fire based EMS I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my better judgement. Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit already certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City did something similar years ago as well. The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same basket. To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (Office) (Office Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, turnbow31@... writes: I remember before the fire department started first responding here in Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... some people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the paramedics. One side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff so another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: aggiesrwe03@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours because the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops across the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to Cowtown...... See this can be what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the ambulance!!! A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your customers today?? -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " wleyfiredept.com> wrote: > Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at > " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time > being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. > > > > Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that may > be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the > necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself to > a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass > the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum > score of 70. > > > > No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, public > safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety > consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies are > absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is > untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and > EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that have > openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many > agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many agencies, > paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a career > firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you know > who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't > know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on > the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, the > job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is simply > no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he > chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to the > resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department is > handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget > will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are > increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the FD > has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, > ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and therefore > provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside > funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, with > no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire > department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. > > > > I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an > EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am > though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an EMT > with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system that > covers over 125,000 people. > > > > By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, > patient care ultimately suffers. > > > > ~DA > > > > _____ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of Romy son > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Fire based EMS > > > > > > Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments get > there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed better > placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, > master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, training > and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have " dumbed > down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and certification > hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private owned > Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my > experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire > based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of > separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few more > trades and hit the gym. > > Romy son > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 > 01:37:00 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Thank you Louis! From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of lnmolino@... Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:48 PM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Fire based EMS I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my better judgement. Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit already certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City did something similar years ago as well. The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same basket. To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (Office) (Office Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, turnbow31@... writes: I remember before the fire department started first responding here in Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... some people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the paramedics. One side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff so another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: aggiesrwe03@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours because the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops across the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to Cowtown...... See this can be what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the ambulance!!! A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your customers today?? -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " wleyfiredept.com> wrote: > Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at > " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time > being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. > > > > Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that may > be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the > necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself to > a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass > the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum > score of 70. > > > > No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, public > safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety > consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies are > absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is > untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and > EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that have > openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many > agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many agencies, > paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a career > firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you know > who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't > know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on > the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, the > job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is simply > no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he > chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to the > resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department is > handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget > will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are > increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the FD > has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, > ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and therefore > provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside > funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, with > no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire > department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. > > > > I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an > EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am > though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an EMT > with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system that > covers over 125,000 people. > > > > By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, > patient care ultimately suffers. > > > > ~DA > > > > _____ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of Romy son > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Fire based EMS > > > > > > Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments get > there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed better > placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, > master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, training > and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have " dumbed > down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and certification > hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private owned > Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my > experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire > based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of > separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few more > trades and hit the gym. > > Romy son > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 > 01:37:00 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Like it was well said earlier, there are great fire based systems here in Texas and the rest of the country as well as there are great non fire based systems in Texas and the rest of the country. Philadelphia fire based service is a great model for good. Detroit's fire based system is near self destruction. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: lnmolino@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:48:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my better judgement. Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit already certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City did something similar years ago as well. The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same basket. To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (Office) (Office Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, turnbow31@... writes: I remember before the fire department started first responding here in Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... some people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the paramedics. One side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff so another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: aggiesrwe03@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours because the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops across the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to Cowtown...... See this can be what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the ambulance!!! A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your customers today?? -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " wrote: > Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at > " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time > being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. > > > > Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that may > be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the > necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself to > a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass > the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum > score of 70. > > > > No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, public > safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety > consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies are > absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is > untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and > EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that have > openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many > agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many agencies, > paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a career > firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you know > who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't > know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on > the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, the > job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is simply > no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he > chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to the > resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department is > handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget > will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are > increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the FD > has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, > ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and therefore > provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside > funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, with > no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire > department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. > > > > I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an > EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am > though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an EMT > with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system that > covers over 125,000 people. > > > > By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, > patient care ultimately suffers. > > > > ~DA > > > > _____ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of Romy son > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Fire based EMS > > > > > > Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments get > there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed better > placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, > master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, training > and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have " dumbed > down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and certification > hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private owned > Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my > experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire > based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of > separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few more > trades and hit the gym. > > Romy son > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 > 01:37:00 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Like it was well said earlier, there are great fire based systems here in Texas and the rest of the country as well as there are great non fire based systems in Texas and the rest of the country. Philadelphia fire based service is a great model for good. Detroit's fire based system is near self destruction. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: lnmolino@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:48:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my better judgement. Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit already certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City did something similar years ago as well. The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same basket. To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (Office) (Office Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, turnbow31@... writes: I remember before the fire department started first responding here in Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... some people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the paramedics. One side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff so another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: aggiesrwe03@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours because the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops across the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to Cowtown...... See this can be what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the ambulance!!! A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your customers today?? -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " wrote: > Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at > " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time > being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. > > > > Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that may > be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the > necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself to > a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass > the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum > score of 70. > > > > No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, public > safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety > consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies are > absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is > untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and > EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that have > openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many > agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many agencies, > paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a career > firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you know > who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't > know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on > the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, the > job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is simply > no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he > chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to the > resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department is > handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget > will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are > increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the FD > has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, > ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and therefore > provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside > funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, with > no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire > department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. > > > > I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an > EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am > though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an EMT > with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system that > covers over 125,000 people. > > > > By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, > patient care ultimately suffers. > > > > ~DA > > > > _____ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of Romy son > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Fire based EMS > > > > > > Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments get > there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed better > placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, > master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, training > and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have " dumbed > down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and certification > hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private owned > Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my > experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire > based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of > separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few more > trades and hit the gym. > > Romy son > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 > 01:37:00 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 I think you are being generous to Philly but it's a hell of a lot better than 15 years ago for sure. I am very good friends with the DC that set up the FSP Program and helped to build the career path for EMS inside of the PFD. He is OLD SCHOOL Fire Chief (now retired and does as I do consulting work. Old school in his case means of the mind set that EMS is the last three letters of the word problems and in ways that is semi true in all cases. he however is a consummate professional and he did his level best to move the PFD in a forward direction and they have done so. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (Office) (Office Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. In a message dated 1/27/2011 4:03:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, turnbow31@... writes: Like it was well said earlier, there are great fire based systems here in Texas and the rest of the country as well as there are great non fire based systems in Texas and the rest of the country. Philadelphia fire based service is a great model for good. Detroit's fire based system is near self destruction. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: lnmolino@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:48:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my better judgement. Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit already certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City did something similar years ago as well. The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same basket. To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) (Office) (Office Fax) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the original author. In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, turnbow31@... writes: I remember before the fire department started first responding here in Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... some people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the paramedics. One side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff so another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. Bt Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP 2617 76th Street Lubbock Texas, 79423 Cell Home Email turnbow31@... To: texasems-l From: aggiesrwe03@... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Fire based EMS What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours because the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops across the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to Cowtown...... See this can be what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the ambulance!!! A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your customers today?? -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " wrote: > Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at > " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time > being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. > > > > Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that may > be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the > necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself to > a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass > the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum > score of 70. > > > > No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, public > safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety > consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies are > absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is > untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and > EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that have > openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many > agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many agencies, > paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a career > firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you know > who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't > know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on > the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, the > job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is simply > no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he > chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to the > resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department is > handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget > will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are > increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the FD > has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, > ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and therefore > provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside > funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, with > no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire > department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. > > > > I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an > EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am > though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an EMT > with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system that > covers over 125,000 people. > > > > By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, > patient care ultimately suffers. > > > > ~DA > > > > _____ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of Romy son > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Fire based EMS > > > > > > Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments get > there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed better > placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, > master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, training > and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have " dumbed > down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and certification > hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private owned > Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my > experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire > based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of > separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few more > trades and hit the gym. > > Romy son > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 > 01:37:00 > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Philly Fire may be a " model " but I wouldn't suggest it's a " great model " . I can't (nor would) argue with Lou's statement that things are better now then they were 26 years ago (because they probably were worse and I was too busy watching Thundercats to notice), but there are better systems in place then what Philly has going on. A few problems off the cuff: (1) The majority of recruits for the department are from " zero-to-hero " paramedic programs or are from personnel with -zero- 911 (only transport) experience. While the program was originally to recruit from the 'burbs, I don't think that has been particularly successful in later years (most people of the suburban providers don't want to live in the city, which is a requirement to work for the Fire Department). (2) Some (many, perhaps) see the fire service medic program as a path into the " real " fire department (as after a period of service you can apply to transfer to become a firefighter), which means you retain the commonly suggest problem of " people who just want to be firefighters doing the paramedic thing to get the job " . (3) There are a number of firefighters (who are also paramedics) which are now prohibited from being ALS providers on the box (because they are " firefighters " not " paramedics " ). When you transfer from one job title to the other, you lose medical command in the city. Very stupid. (4) The medics were treated as bastard stepchildren in the department and union (not specifically a Philly problem). Fortunately this problem was recently " resolved " as the fire service medics are no longer part of Local 22 (due to a lawsuit originally filed by a paramedic many years ago) allowing the city (and department) the opportunity to -really- screw with them. At least they don't have to worry about the union not taking care of their needs anymore ... There are some excellent providers and supervisors, as well as some substandard ones, like anywhere else. The current system they have " works " most of the time, and noone has a better solution that I know of, so while I may be critical of it, I understand the -why- behind some of the problems. However, the model isn't one that I would care to emulate, if I were given a blank slate and similar demographics. Austin > > Like it was well said earlier, there are great fire based systems here in Texas and the rest of the country as well as there are great non fire based systems in Texas and the rest of the country. Philadelphia fire based service is a great model for good. Detroit's fire based system is near self destruction. > > Bt > > > Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP > 2617 76th Street > Lubbock Texas, 79423 > Cell > Home > Email turnbow31@... > > > > > > > > To: texasems-l > From: lnmolino@... > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:48:11 -0500 > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > > > > > > I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular > argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my > better judgement. > > Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life > outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. > > Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to > say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. > > One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service > paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit already > certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. > > They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT > Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on > the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City > did something similar years ago as well. > > The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non > fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same basket. > To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race > are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or > that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. > > Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET > FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI > Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant > > LNMolino@... > > (Cell Phone) > (Office) > (Office Fax) > > " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " > > " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds > discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) > > The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and > the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or > organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I > specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only > for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential > materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public > domain by the original author. > > In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, > turnbow31@... writes: > > I remember before the fire department started first responding here in > Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I > have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. > However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have > certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing > EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... some > people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and > want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls > are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system > especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the paramedics. One > side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the > other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff so > another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. > > Bt > > Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP > 2617 76th Street > Lubbock Texas, 79423 > Cell > Home > Email turnbow31@... > > To: texasems-l > From: aggiesrwe03@... > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds > water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service > that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your > words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours because > the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel > room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, > which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck > out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of > food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops across > the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing > from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made > pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying > call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to Cowtown...... > See this can be > what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, > gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the > ambulance!!! > > A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your > customers today?? > > -Chris > > Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard > on my iPhone > > On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " wleyfiredept.com> wrote: > >> Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at >> " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time >> being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. >> >> >> >> Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that > may >> be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the >> necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself > to >> a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass >> the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum >> score of 70. >> >> >> >> No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, > public >> safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety >> consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies > are >> absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is >> untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and >> EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that > have >> openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many >> agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many > agencies, >> paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a > career >> firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you > know >> who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't >> know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on >> the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, > the >> job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is > simply >> no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he >> chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to > the >> resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department > is >> handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget >> will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are >> increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the > FD >> has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, >> ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and > therefore >> provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside >> funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, > with >> no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire >> department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. >> >> >> >> I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an >> EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am >> though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an > EMT >> with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system > that >> covers over 125,000 people. >> >> >> >> By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, >> patient care ultimately suffers. >> >> >> >> ~DA >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On >> Behalf Of Romy son >> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM >> To: texasems-l >> Subject: Fire based EMS >> >> >> >> >> >> Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments > get >> there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed > better >> placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, >> master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, > training >> and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have > " dumbed >> down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and > certification >> hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private > owned >> Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my >> experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire >> based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of >> separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few > more >> trades and hit the gym. >> >> Romy son >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 >> 01:37:00 >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Philly Fire may be a " model " but I wouldn't suggest it's a " great model " . I can't (nor would) argue with Lou's statement that things are better now then they were 26 years ago (because they probably were worse and I was too busy watching Thundercats to notice), but there are better systems in place then what Philly has going on. A few problems off the cuff: (1) The majority of recruits for the department are from " zero-to-hero " paramedic programs or are from personnel with -zero- 911 (only transport) experience. While the program was originally to recruit from the 'burbs, I don't think that has been particularly successful in later years (most people of the suburban providers don't want to live in the city, which is a requirement to work for the Fire Department). (2) Some (many, perhaps) see the fire service medic program as a path into the " real " fire department (as after a period of service you can apply to transfer to become a firefighter), which means you retain the commonly suggest problem of " people who just want to be firefighters doing the paramedic thing to get the job " . (3) There are a number of firefighters (who are also paramedics) which are now prohibited from being ALS providers on the box (because they are " firefighters " not " paramedics " ). When you transfer from one job title to the other, you lose medical command in the city. Very stupid. (4) The medics were treated as bastard stepchildren in the department and union (not specifically a Philly problem). Fortunately this problem was recently " resolved " as the fire service medics are no longer part of Local 22 (due to a lawsuit originally filed by a paramedic many years ago) allowing the city (and department) the opportunity to -really- screw with them. At least they don't have to worry about the union not taking care of their needs anymore ... There are some excellent providers and supervisors, as well as some substandard ones, like anywhere else. The current system they have " works " most of the time, and noone has a better solution that I know of, so while I may be critical of it, I understand the -why- behind some of the problems. However, the model isn't one that I would care to emulate, if I were given a blank slate and similar demographics. Austin > > Like it was well said earlier, there are great fire based systems here in Texas and the rest of the country as well as there are great non fire based systems in Texas and the rest of the country. Philadelphia fire based service is a great model for good. Detroit's fire based system is near self destruction. > > Bt > > > Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP > 2617 76th Street > Lubbock Texas, 79423 > Cell > Home > Email turnbow31@... > > > > > > > > To: texasems-l > From: lnmolino@... > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:48:11 -0500 > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > > > > > > I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular > argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my > better judgement. > > Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life > outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. > > Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to > say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. > > One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service > paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit already > certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. > > They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT > Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on > the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City > did something similar years ago as well. > > The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non > fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same basket. > To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race > are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or > that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. > > Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET > FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI > Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant > > LNMolino@... > > (Cell Phone) > (Office) > (Office Fax) > > " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " > > " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds > discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) > > The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and > the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or > organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless I > specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only > for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential > materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public > domain by the original author. > > In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, > turnbow31@... writes: > > I remember before the fire department started first responding here in > Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I > have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. > However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have > certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing > EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... some > people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and > want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls > are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system > especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the paramedics. One > side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the > other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff so > another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. > > Bt > > Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP > 2617 76th Street > Lubbock Texas, 79423 > Cell > Home > Email turnbow31@... > > To: texasems-l > From: aggiesrwe03@... > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds > water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service > that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your > words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours because > the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel > room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, > which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck > out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of > food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops across > the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing > from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made > pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying > call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to Cowtown...... > See this can be > what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, > gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the > ambulance!!! > > A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your > customers today?? > > -Chris > > Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard > on my iPhone > > On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " wleyfiredept.com> wrote: > >> Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at >> " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time >> being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. >> >> >> >> Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that > may >> be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the >> necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself > to >> a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass >> the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum >> score of 70. >> >> >> >> No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, > public >> safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety >> consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies > are >> absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is >> untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and >> EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that > have >> openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many >> agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many > agencies, >> paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a > career >> firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you > know >> who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't >> know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on >> the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, > the >> job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is > simply >> no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he >> chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to > the >> resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department > is >> handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget >> will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are >> increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the > FD >> has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, >> ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and > therefore >> provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside >> funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, > with >> no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire >> department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. >> >> >> >> I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an >> EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am >> though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an > EMT >> with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system > that >> covers over 125,000 people. >> >> >> >> By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, >> patient care ultimately suffers. >> >> >> >> ~DA >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On >> Behalf Of Romy son >> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM >> To: texasems-l >> Subject: Fire based EMS >> >> >> >> >> >> Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments > get >> there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed > better >> placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, >> master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, > training >> and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have > " dumbed >> down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and > certification >> hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private > owned >> Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my >> experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire >> based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of >> separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few > more >> trades and hit the gym. >> >> Romy son >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 >> 01:37:00 >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Lou I believe FDNY has the same type system, as well as many " private " services that have FDNY credentialed emt's and paramedics. They too have the option to go fire after they meet their civil service requirement. Again not much to model after system wide as their turnover rate is crazy high, when I applied in 2006 I was basically told by EMS command we will hire anyone who applies and doesn't have criminal record!!! -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone > Thank you Louis! > > > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of lnmolino@... > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:48 PM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > > > > > I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular > argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my > better judgement. > > Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life > outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. > > Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to > say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. > > One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service > paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit > already > certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. > > They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT > Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on > > the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City > did something similar years ago as well. > > The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non > fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same > basket. > To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race > are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or > that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. > > Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET > FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI > Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant > > LNMolino@... > > (Cell Phone) > (Office) > (Office Fax) > > " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " > > " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds > discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) > > The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and > the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or > organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with > unless I > specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only > for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential > materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public > domain by the original author. > > In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, > turnbow31@... writes: > > I remember before the fire department started first responding here in > Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I > have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. > However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have > certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing > EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... > some > people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and > want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls > are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system > especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the > paramedics. One > side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the > other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff > so > another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. > > Bt > > Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP > 2617 76th Street > Lubbock Texas, 79423 > Cell > Home > Email turnbow31@... > > To: texasems-l > From: aggiesrwe03@... > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds > water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service > > that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your > words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours > because > the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel > room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, > > which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck > out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of > food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops > across > the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing > from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made > pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying > call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to > Cowtown...... > See this can be > what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, > gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the > ambulance!!! > > A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your > customers today?? > > -Chris > > Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard > on my iPhone > > On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " > wleyfiredept.com> wrote: > >> Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at >> " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time >> being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. >> >> >> >> Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that > may >> be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the >> necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself > to >> a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass >> the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum >> score of 70. >> >> >> >> No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, > public >> safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety >> consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies > are >> absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is >> untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and >> EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that > have >> openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many >> agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many > agencies, >> paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a > career >> firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you > know >> who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't >> know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on >> the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, > the >> job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is > simply >> no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he >> chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to > the >> resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department > is >> handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget >> will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are >> increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the > FD >> has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, >> ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and > therefore >> provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside >> funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, > with >> no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire >> department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. >> >> >> >> I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an >> EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am >> though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an > EMT >> with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system > that >> covers over 125,000 people. >> >> >> >> By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, >> patient care ultimately suffers. >> >> >> >> ~DA >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: texasems-l > [mailto:texasems-l ] > On >> Behalf Of Romy son >> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM >> To: texasems-l >> Subject: Fire based EMS >> >> >> >> >> >> Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments > get >> there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed > better >> placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, >> master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, > training >> and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have > " dumbed >> down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and > certification >> hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private > owned >> Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my >> experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire >> based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of >> separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few > more >> trades and hit the gym. >> >> Romy son >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 >> 01:37:00 >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Lou I believe FDNY has the same type system, as well as many " private " services that have FDNY credentialed emt's and paramedics. They too have the option to go fire after they meet their civil service requirement. Again not much to model after system wide as their turnover rate is crazy high, when I applied in 2006 I was basically told by EMS command we will hire anyone who applies and doesn't have criminal record!!! -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone > Thank you Louis! > > > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of lnmolino@... > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:48 PM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > > > > > I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular > argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my > better judgement. > > Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life > outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. > > Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to > say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. > > One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service > paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit > already > certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. > > They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT > Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on > > the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City > did something similar years ago as well. > > The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non > fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same > basket. > To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race > are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or > that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. > > Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET > FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI > Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant > > LNMolino@... > > (Cell Phone) > (Office) > (Office Fax) > > " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " > > " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds > discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) > > The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and > the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or > organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with > unless I > specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only > for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential > materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public > domain by the original author. > > In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, > turnbow31@... writes: > > I remember before the fire department started first responding here in > Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I > have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. > However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have > certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing > EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... > some > people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and > want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls > are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system > especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the > paramedics. One > side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the > other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff > so > another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. > > Bt > > Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP > 2617 76th Street > Lubbock Texas, 79423 > Cell > Home > Email turnbow31@... > > To: texasems-l > From: aggiesrwe03@... > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds > water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service > > that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your > words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours > because > the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel > room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, > > which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck > out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of > food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops > across > the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing > from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made > pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying > call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to > Cowtown...... > See this can be > what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, > gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the > ambulance!!! > > A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your > customers today?? > > -Chris > > Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard > on my iPhone > > On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " > wleyfiredept.com> wrote: > >> Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at >> " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time >> being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. >> >> >> >> Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that > may >> be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the >> necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself > to >> a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass >> the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum >> score of 70. >> >> >> >> No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, > public >> safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety >> consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies > are >> absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is >> untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and >> EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that > have >> openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many >> agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many > agencies, >> paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a > career >> firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you > know >> who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't >> know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on >> the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, > the >> job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is > simply >> no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he >> chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to > the >> resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department > is >> handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget >> will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are >> increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the > FD >> has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, >> ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and > therefore >> provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside >> funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, > with >> no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire >> department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. >> >> >> >> I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an >> EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am >> though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an > EMT >> with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system > that >> covers over 125,000 people. >> >> >> >> By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, >> patient care ultimately suffers. >> >> >> >> ~DA >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: texasems-l > [mailto:texasems-l ] > On >> Behalf Of Romy son >> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM >> To: texasems-l >> Subject: Fire based EMS >> >> >> >> >> >> Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments > get >> there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed > better >> placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, >> master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, > training >> and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have > " dumbed >> down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and > certification >> hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private > owned >> Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my >> experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire >> based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of >> separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few > more >> trades and hit the gym. >> >> Romy son >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 >> 01:37:00 >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 For what Greg? Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI Training Program Manager Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc. Typed by my fingers on my iPhone. Please excuse any typos. (Cell) (Office) (Office Fax) LNMolino@... Lou@... > Thank you Louis! > > > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of lnmolino@... > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:48 PM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > > > > > I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular > argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my > better judgement. > > Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life > outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. > > Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to > say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. > > One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service > paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit > already > certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. > > They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT > Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on > > the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City > did something similar years ago as well. > > The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non > fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same > basket. > To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race > are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or > that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. > > Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET > FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI > Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant > > LNMolino@... > > (Cell Phone) > (Office) > (Office Fax) > > " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " > > " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds > discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) > > The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and > the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or > organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with > unless I > specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only > for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential > materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public > domain by the original author. > > In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, > turnbow31@... writes: > > I remember before the fire department started first responding here in > Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I > have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. > However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have > certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing > EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... > some > people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and > want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls > are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system > especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the > paramedics. One > side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the > other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff > so > another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. > > Bt > > Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP > 2617 76th Street > Lubbock Texas, 79423 > Cell > Home > Email turnbow31@... > > To: texasems-l > From: aggiesrwe03@... > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds > water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service > > that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your > words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours > because > the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel > room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, > > which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck > out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of > food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops > across > the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing > from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made > pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying > call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to > Cowtown...... > See this can be > what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, > gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the > ambulance!!! > > A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your > customers today?? > > -Chris > > Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard > on my iPhone > > On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " > wleyfiredept.com> wrote: > >> Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at >> " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time >> being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. >> >> >> >> Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that > may >> be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the >> necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself > to >> a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass >> the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum >> score of 70. >> >> >> >> No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, > public >> safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety >> consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies > are >> absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is >> untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and >> EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that > have >> openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many >> agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many > agencies, >> paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a > career >> firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you > know >> who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't >> know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on >> the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, > the >> job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is > simply >> no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he >> chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to > the >> resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department > is >> handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget >> will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are >> increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the > FD >> has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, >> ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and > therefore >> provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside >> funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, > with >> no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire >> department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. >> >> >> >> I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an >> EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am >> though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an > EMT >> with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system > that >> covers over 125,000 people. >> >> >> >> By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, >> patient care ultimately suffers. >> >> >> >> ~DA >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: texasems-l > [mailto:texasems-l ] > On >> Behalf Of Romy son >> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM >> To: texasems-l >> Subject: Fire based EMS >> >> >> >> >> >> Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments > get >> there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed > better >> placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, >> master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, > training >> and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have > " dumbed >> down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and > certification >> hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private > owned >> Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my >> experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire >> based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of >> separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few > more >> trades and hit the gym. >> >> Romy son >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 >> 01:37:00 >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 For what Greg? Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI Training Program Manager Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc. Typed by my fingers on my iPhone. Please excuse any typos. (Cell) (Office) (Office Fax) LNMolino@... Lou@... > Thank you Louis! > > > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of lnmolino@... > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:48 PM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > > > > > I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular > argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my > better judgement. > > Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life > outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. > > Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to > say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. > > One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service > paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit > already > certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. > > They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT > Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on > > the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City > did something similar years ago as well. > > The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non > fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same > basket. > To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race > are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or > that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. > > Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET > FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI > Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant > > LNMolino@... > > (Cell Phone) > (Office) > (Office Fax) > > " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " > > " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds > discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) > > The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and > the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or > organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with > unless I > specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only > for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential > materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public > domain by the original author. > > In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, > turnbow31@... writes: > > I remember before the fire department started first responding here in > Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I > have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. > However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have > certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing > EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... > some > people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and > want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls > are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system > especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the > paramedics. One > side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the > other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff > so > another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. > > Bt > > Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP > 2617 76th Street > Lubbock Texas, 79423 > Cell > Home > Email turnbow31@... > > To: texasems-l > From: aggiesrwe03@... > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds > water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service > > that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your > words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours > because > the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel > room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, > > which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck > out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of > food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops > across > the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing > from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made > pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying > call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to > Cowtown...... > See this can be > what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, > gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the > ambulance!!! > > A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your > customers today?? > > -Chris > > Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard > on my iPhone > > On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " > wleyfiredept.com> wrote: > >> Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at >> " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time >> being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. >> >> >> >> Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that > may >> be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the >> necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself > to >> a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass >> the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum >> score of 70. >> >> >> >> No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, > public >> safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety >> consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies > are >> absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is >> untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and >> EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that > have >> openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many >> agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many > agencies, >> paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a > career >> firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you > know >> who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't >> know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on >> the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, > the >> job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is > simply >> no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he >> chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to > the >> resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department > is >> handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget >> will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are >> increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the > FD >> has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, >> ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and > therefore >> provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside >> funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, > with >> no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire >> department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. >> >> >> >> I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an >> EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am >> though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an > EMT >> with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system > that >> covers over 125,000 people. >> >> >> >> By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, >> patient care ultimately suffers. >> >> >> >> ~DA >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: texasems-l > [mailto:texasems-l ] > On >> Behalf Of Romy son >> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM >> To: texasems-l >> Subject: Fire based EMS >> >> >> >> >> >> Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments > get >> there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed > better >> placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, >> master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, > training >> and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have > " dumbed >> down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and > certification >> hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private > owned >> Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my >> experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire >> based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of >> separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few > more >> trades and hit the gym. >> >> Romy son >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 >> 01:37:00 >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Not really up on FDNY here. Philly has a similar turnover issue. Younger Medics who want street time come in from the Burbs. Get a few years of the Hood under their belts and move back out to burbs when they tire of the risk or decide it's time to slow down. Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI Training Program Manager Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc. Typed by my fingers on my iPhone. Please excuse any typos. (Cell) (Office) (Office Fax) LNMolino@... Lou@... > Lou I believe FDNY has the same type system, as well as many " private " services that have FDNY credentialed emt's and paramedics. They too have the option to go fire after they meet their civil service requirement. Again not much to model after system wide as their turnover rate is crazy high, when I applied in 2006 I was basically told by EMS command we will hire anyone who applies and doesn't have criminal record!!! > > -Chris > > > > Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone > > > >> Thank you Louis! >> >> >> >> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On >> Behalf Of lnmolino@... >> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:48 PM >> To: texasems-l >> Subject: Re: Fire based EMS >> >> >> >> >> >> I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular >> argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my >> better judgement. >> >> Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life >> outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. >> >> Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to >> say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. >> >> One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service >> paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit >> already >> certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. >> >> They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT >> Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on >> >> the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City >> did something similar years ago as well. >> >> The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non >> fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same >> basket. >> To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race >> are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or >> that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. >> >> Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET >> FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI >> Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant >> >> LNMolino@... >> >> (Cell Phone) >> (Office) >> (Office Fax) >> >> " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " >> >> " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds >> discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) >> >> The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and >> the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or >> organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with >> unless I >> specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only >> for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential >> materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public >> domain by the original author. >> >> In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, >> turnbow31@... writes: >> >> I remember before the fire department started first responding here in >> Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I >> have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. >> However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have >> certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing >> EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... >> some >> people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and >> want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls >> are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system >> especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the >> paramedics. One >> side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the >> other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff >> so >> another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. >> >> Bt >> >> Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP >> 2617 76th Street >> Lubbock Texas, 79423 >> Cell >> Home >> Email turnbow31@... >> >> To: texasems-l >> From: aggiesrwe03@... >> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 >> Subject: Re: Fire based EMS >> >> What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds >> water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service >> >> that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your >> words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours >> because >> the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel >> room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, >> >> which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck >> out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of >> food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops >> across >> the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing >> from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made >> pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying >> call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to >> Cowtown...... >> See this can be >> what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, >> gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the >> ambulance!!! >> >> A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your >> customers today?? >> >> -Chris >> >> Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard >> on my iPhone >> >> On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " > >> wleyfiredept.com> wrote: >> >>> Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at >>> " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time >>> being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. >>> >>> >>> >>> Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that >> may >>> be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the >>> necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself >> to >>> a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass >>> the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum >>> score of 70. >>> >>> >>> >>> No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, >> public >>> safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety >>> consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies >> are >>> absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is >>> untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and >>> EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that >> have >>> openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many >>> agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many >> agencies, >>> paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a >> career >>> firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you >> know >>> who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't >>> know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on >>> the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, >> the >>> job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is >> simply >>> no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he >>> chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to >> the >>> resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department >> is >>> handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget >>> will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are >>> increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the >> FD >>> has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, >>> ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and >> therefore >>> provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside >>> funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, >> with >>> no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire >>> department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an >>> EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am >>> though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an >> EMT >>> with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system >> that >>> covers over 125,000 people. >>> >>> >>> >>> By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, >>> patient care ultimately suffers. >>> >>> >>> >>> ~DA >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> From: texasems-l >> [mailto:texasems-l ] >> On >>> Behalf Of Romy son >>> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM >>> To: texasems-l >>> Subject: Fire based EMS >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments >> get >>> there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed >> better >>> placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, >>> master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, >> training >>> and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have >> " dumbed >>> down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and >> certification >>> hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private >> owned >>> Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my >>> experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire >>> based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of >>> separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few >> more >>> trades and hit the gym. >>> >>> Romy son >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 >>> 01:37:00 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 For your statement: > The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non-fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same basket. To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race are this or that or if you're a Member of a certain faith you are this or that. Basically bigoted and presumptuous. Greg Higgins From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Louis N. Molino, Sr. Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:25 PM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Fire based EMS For what Greg? Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI Training Program Manager Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc. Typed by my fingers on my iPhone. Please excuse any typos. (Cell) (Office) (Office Fax) LNMolino@... Lou@... On Jan 27, 2011, at 15:14, " Greg Higgins " gs.higgins@... > wrote: > Thank you Louis! > > > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of lnmolino@... > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:48 PM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > > > > > I was going to stay out of this thread for the mere fact it is a circular > argument but I decided in true arrogant Yankee style to go against even my > better judgement. > > Now I hate to tell some of you this and some won't buy it but there is life > outside of Texas and they sometimes do improve their systems too. > > Philadelphia Fire is certainly no model EMS System in 2011 but compared to > say 1985 they have come a LONG WAY. > > One thing they did was create the job title FSP as in Fire Service > paramedic. They did so for a number of reasons but chiefly to recruit > already > certified Paramedics into their system from the NJ and PA Suburbs. > > They run the FSP's through a basic fire service course but they are NOT > Firefighters they work strictly EMS and they have a career path in the FD on > > the EMS side or they can get fully into the Fire side if they want. La City > did something similar years ago as well. > > The major problem I have with this argument is that many but not all non > fire service EMS folks simply lump all fire based systems in the same > basket. > To me that's not much different than saying all persons of a certain race > are this or that or if your a Member of a certain faith you are this or > that. basically bigoted and presumptuous. > > Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET > FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI > Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant > > LNMolino@... > > (Cell Phone) > (Office) > (Office Fax) > > " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " > > " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds > discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) > > The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and > the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or > organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with > unless I > specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only > for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential > materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public > domain by the original author. > > In a message dated 1/27/2011 2:36:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, > turnbow31@... writes: > > I remember before the fire department started first responding here in > Lubbock. We ran the call and call for other units as needed. It was fine. I > have several friends that are fire fighters and I appreciate what they do. > However just because you are a municipality and under Texas Admin Code have > certain areas you can explore to try and justify taking over an existing > EMS does not mean it is prudent. Some people want to fight fire cool.... > some > people, like myself, do not like heights, closed spaces or being hot and > want to be EMT's or paramedics. I just do not think because you fire calls > are down that city's should approve fire taking over an EMS system > especially when there is not going to be offers of employment to the > paramedics. One > side of the public safety triads family is no more important than the > other. To terminate close to 100 paramedics, EMT's, EMD's and supoort staff > so > another department can justify a budget just seems discriminatory. > > Bt > > Turnbow, NREMT-P, CCEMTP > 2617 76th Street > Lubbock Texas, 79423 > Cell > Home > Email turnbow31@... > > To: texasems-l > From: aggiesrwe03@... > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:00 -0600 > Subject: Re: Fire based EMS > > What you are forgetting to mention in this scenario, some of which holds > water some which does not 100% of the time. Is the private ambulance service > > that places units on the streets with under trained, under paid (your > words not mine) paramedics that have been awake for the last 72 hours > because > the company didn't have relief for him. They then send his unit to a motel > room to stage for a call, which eventually comes in as a transfer to Dallas, > > which is a 3 hours drive one way. You have now taken a 911/transfer truck > out of service for 6 hours (if your lucky and they don't need fuel of > food). When guess what happens that's right a pedi cardiac arrest drops > across > the street from the motel they were staged in and the next unit is clearing > from a dialysis center across town, and the original crew has already made > pt. Contact at the hospital for the bowel obstruction (that is a paying > call by the way cause the pt. Has insurance) they are driving to > Cowtown...... > See this can be > what if'd to death fire based has it's problems just as much as private, > gives us firemen a break here, especially the ones who DO want to ride the > ambulance!!! > > A better question that should be asked is what have YOU done for your > customers today?? > > -Chris > > Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard > on my iPhone > > On Jan 27, 2011, at 10:12, " Allman, EMT-B " > > wleyfiredept.com> wrote: > >> Romy, thank you for inadvertently supporting my case. You had me at >> " professional ambulance driver " . It is no wonder EMS has such a hard time >> being considered a profession and reflecting the pay as such. >> >> >> >> Nobody said the paramedic exam was " dumbed down " for firefighters; that > may >> be your inference from what was said in the discussion. Picking up the >> necessary CE hours to hold your certification is hardly holding yourself > to >> a higher standard. Anyone can be taught to the exam and successfully pass >> the National Registry test to at least pass by the 3rd try with a minimum >> score of 70. >> >> >> >> No matter what unions, national groups or fire service lobbyists say, > public >> safety is made up of three legs, not two. The triad of public safety >> consists of police, fire and guess what: EMS. Usually when EMS agencies > are >> absorbed, they simply disappear. Police are left untouched. Fire is >> untouched. But suddenly paramedics must become firefighter-paramedics and >> EMS is relegated to a necessary evil by many career firefighters that > have >> openly stated they do not want any part of the ambulance service. Many >> agencies no longer employ strictly full-time paramedics. In many > agencies, >> paramedicine is often seen only as a notch in the advancement of a > career >> firefighter. How many administrative or white-collar personnel do you > know >> who made it in a fire-EMS system without requisite fire training? I don't >> know of any, but I can tell you that a paramedic patch sure looks good on >> the chief's uniform. When EMS disappears from the public safety triad, > the >> job role of a career paramedic disappears. In a fire system, there is > simply >> no room for a veteran paramedic to advance in pay or promotion, unless he >> chooses to be a firefighter as well. How does that help patients? Due to > the >> resounding success of their fire-prevention efforts, the fire department > is >> handling fewer and fewer fire calls. Fewer calls means the normal budget >> will shrink, because the money isn't needed. Meanwhile, EMS calls are >> increasing and so are their budgets. In order to grow their budgets, the > FD >> has an even larger goal in mind. On top of the standing budget of EMS, >> ambulances are somewhat self-supporting. We bill for transport and > therefore >> provide some of our own money back into the system without any outside >> funding. Fire departments then portray EMS as a system in poor straits, > with >> no leadership, poor response times and shoddy care. Then, the fire >> department can step in to save the day and absorb EMS, budget and all. >> >> >> >> I'm not against a Chief of a fire department that is certified as an >> EMT-Basic, that is qualified, running an EMS service by any means. I am >> though very much against putting a Chief of a fire department that is an > EMT >> with NO EXPERIENCE WORKING ON AN AMBULANCE in charge of an EMS system > that >> covers over 125,000 people. >> >> >> >> By removing EMS from the public safety triad and making EMS second class, >> patient care ultimately suffers. >> >> >> >> ~DA >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: texasems-l > [mailto:texasems-l ] > On >> Behalf Of Romy son >> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:24 AM >> To: texasems-l >> Subject: Fire based EMS >> >> >> >> >> >> Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments > get >> there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed > better >> placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all trades, >> master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, > training >> and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have > " dumbed >> down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and > certification >> hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private > owned >> Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my >> experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a fire >> based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury of >> separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few > more >> trades and hit the gym. >> >> Romy son >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3406 - Release Date: 01/27/11 >> 01:37:00 >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 As usual Mr. Kellow has cut directly to the core of the matter. Is EMS as we know it sustainable? I remember when Jack Stout came out with the public utility model that was supposed to be the answer for all time. It wasn't, although some PUMs have survived. How can we make EMS a sustainable endeavor? A change in paradigm? A change in mission? How can cities like Abilene provide for EMS given a limited tax base? These are pressing problems not just for Abilene but for many other cities of similar size. Gene Gandy Re: Fire based EMS > > Very well stated Larry! > > And I support Fire Based EMS! > > Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET > FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI > Training Program Manager > Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc. > Typed by my fingers on my iPhone. > Please excuse any typos. > (Cell) > (Office) > (Office Fax) > > LNMolino@... > > > Lou@... > > > > On Jan 27, 2011, at 14:40, " Larry " lanelson1@... > > > wrote: > > > Romy, you have successfully demonstrated the arrogance that is too > frequently seen from fire-based EMS. Given the 80% EMS call statement you > make, doesn't it seem rational that the only reason fire has an interest in > EMS is to preserve their infrastructure'? I am not anti- fire EMS, anymore > than I am pro - private / third service. Each has its place, but comments > like that do not advance the cause of good patient care or a unifed EMS. > �The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of > all.� -- F. Kennedy, 1963 > > > > ----- Re: Fire based EMS > > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 08:33:16 -0600 > > > > Yep, the first thing I look for in a paramedic is the size of their > biceps. > > > > Looking at EMS as a necessary evil in order to get on with the FD really > > inspires my confidence, too. > > > > Bob Kellow wrote: > >> " And, away we go...! " LOL. > >> > >> On Jan 27, 2011 8:24 AM, " Romy son " r.stevenson7013@... > > > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Good for AFD. Over 80% of emergency calls are medical. Fire departments > get > >> there faster because of a stronger infrastructure that has allowed > better > >> placement of stations. To say that fire based EMS, is jack of all > trades, > >> master of none is an uneducated insult. They have same equipment, > training > >> and abilities as ambulance drivers. My paramedic exam, didn't have > " dumbed > >> down for firefighter " on it. Im held to the same training and > certification > >> hours as my ambulance based counterpart. In my experiance the private > owned > >> Ambulance companies, hire a lot of off duty firefighters. It's also my > >> experience that a lot of professional ambulance drivers can't pass a > fire > >> based PT. Cities and Local governments can no longer afford the luxury > of > >> separate services, so I guess some of y'all better learn to jack a few > more > >> trades and hit the gym. > >> > >> Romy son > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Grayson > > www.kellygrayson.com > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Ditto what Wes says. ville is a model provider. GG Re: Fire based EMS What Chief Reeves said. And for the record, ville's fire-based EMS system is an organization that I'd be proud to be associated with or to take care of my loved ones. Truth is, there are some phenomenal EMS systems of every type and some crummy systems of every type. To me, the determining factors of EMS success are a commitment to high quality EMS care and an active, involved medical director. From my own personal experience, ville has that down pat, regardless of whether they are fire based or not. Wes " not a firefighter " Ogilvie Sent from my iPad > I was going to stay out of this until I viewed some of the comments. I have > been in EMS since the 70's and have participated in Fire and Hospital based > EMS. Most of the comments are a bunch of BS.... > It doesn't really matter who provides EMS as long as the person that needs > EMS is taken care of. Do you really think that a person laying sick or > injured is thinking I hope it is a FD EMS or a Private EMS, they really > don't care as long as they are taken care of in a timely manner. > Any one can make and argument for either type service. Neither is better > than the other. It all depends on how the service is set up and whether or > not the people that are involved in the operations care about the type of > service they want to provide and the people hired to operate the ambulance > care about the job they perform. That will make the difference. > There are many ways to fund EMS. Some cities throughout the US have been > providing EMS for over 40-45 years, long before private EMS. In some cases > yes FD EMS can provide faster responses and more resource due to the funding > streams, but not always. Cities are not looking for a profit to put in > someones back pocket, they are actually thinking of their citizens and > spending some of the monies from those citizens to provide a service. > What we should ALL be doing is making sure we are making a difference for > OUR patients regardless of type of service and if we are not then find a way > to make it happen. > > Ricky > > The information contained in this email is meant solely for the intended recipient. > Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, > any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, > is prohibited and may be unlawful. No liability or responsibility is accepted if information > or data is, for whatever reason, corrupted or does not reach its intended recipient. > No warranty is given that this email is free of viruses. The views expressed in this email are, > unless otherwise stated, those of the author and not those of the City of ville or its management. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 On Friday, January 28, 2011 00:21, " Wegandy " wegandy@...> said: > How can we make EMS a sustainable endeavor? A change in paradigm? A change in > mission? By returning to the 1960s. By forgetting about paradigms. The funeral homes had it right all along. They did it because it was the right thing to do, not because it was a chance to balance their budget, save jobs, or because they had to. Have we seen that since then? I haven't. In fact, every model since then has strayed farther from the primary mission. To see the future, look to the past. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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