Re: FW: Oil Spill Operations

[Guest guest]

The problem is that the delegation of authority is in state statutes and the

states authority ends at the end of its territorial waters. The liability

protections that most states have in their statutes also end at that point.

The good samaritan law will not work, good sam laws are state specific,

there is no federal good samaritan law.

The problem is that companies view the National Registry as a license. It

is not a license, it does not give anyone the authority to practice. In all

other professions companies working offshore or internationally require

their employees to be licensed in a state, any state will do - this applies

to physicians, nurses, engineers etc. It is not uncommon to find licensed

professionals in all fields who are licensed by multiple states working on a

job site.

The bigger problem is what scope of practice do these non licensed -

National Registry only EMS professionals use? The scope of practice is

defined by the states, there is no federal national scope of practice. Do

not confuse the National Scope of Practice Model with a state scope of

practice.

What happens when someone does something wrong? What agency or state do you

go to if that EMS professional is not licensed in any state?

AJL

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 8:51 AM, A Austin

abaustin+yahoogroups@...abaustin%2Byahoogroups@...>

> wrote:

>

>

>

> This isn't really the point of the exercise. I'm looking for the law,

> convention, or regulation that allows medical doctors the privilege of

> delegating their practice to us in national or international waters. If you

> think about things at their most basic, a physician needs legal

> authorization to work, though I will grant that in the absence of a defined

> method for that authorization few would say they have no right to practice.

> However, delegation of practice is something that is very specific and in

> the absence of a specific legal authorization would be generally assumed not

> to exist, no? I don't really care how it works in reality, because I work

> offshore too along with tens of thousands of other guys, and oftentimes the

> reality doesn't match up with the regulation.

>

> I do agree that at some point it boils down to a doctor authorizing

> 'someone' to do 'something.' However, I'm not sure it has " nothing " to do

> with the master, either, because I don't think if there is any language

> addressing it that it has been brought into the modern era, and failing

> that, it would be customary for the master to be ultimately responsible for

> everything on his vessel.

>

> And if it just boils down to having a " doctor, " don't tell the third

> service companies. 'Medics have been getting pushed off rigs in the parts of

> the world because they can get a " qualified " TCN " doctor " for half the

> day-rate of a medic. However, if what you're saying is the final word, there

> isn't much of a reason they couldn't do it in the Gulf.

>

> Austin

>

>

>

>

> > i work offshore. the ship's master has nothing to do with delegation of

> medial care.

> > a physician delegates medical care to us and we have protocols/standing

> orders just like medics on land have.....

> >

> > jim davis

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >> An attorney friend of mine has a technical term for someone practicing

> >

> >> without a license, especially medics who work offshore. The term is

> >

> >> " payday " .

> >

> >>

> >

> >> If you know of anyone who is practicing without a license I encourage

> you to

> >

> >> report it to the proper authorities.

> >

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[Guest guest]

Acadian is certainly one of the bigger third-service medical providers in the

GoM. I have no doubt they have input legally into scope of practice of their

medics, if only because they are the ones writing their company policies.

However, to my knowledge, there is no regulation or other legal input being had

by any company, simply because this is an issue that is going to be ignored

until someone really screws up.

I've been offshore for a number of years now, and even though I believe my

practice is exemplary, I still recognize the inherent risk of every medical act

offshore. I regularly use the example of a boat that I worked on that the deck

crew liked to run around and kick each other in the nuts. One day, someone

complained of testicular pain, and after my H&P, there was obvious swelling (go

figure) but the phrase that resounded in my head was " it felt like my balls

spun. " Is it testicular torsion or just common kick in the balls? I had no idea,

and I wanted to evac the guy. He refused. A couple days later, he feels better,

no problems, no worries. What if it was testicular torsion? You think I wouldn't

have gotten sued even if he refused to go to the beach?

EVERYTHING you do offshore has the potential for a lawsuit. One wrong assessment

and the guy will call any one of those 'jones act lawyers' with billboards up

and down highway 90 and they will -own- you. Even if you do everything right,

you call medical control, you've covered your ass to the best of your ability,

there is no downside for that guy to sue you and he will find some sleazy lawyer

to take it on contingency. Even if we did everything right, if there isn't any

legal framework for our practice offshore, that is enough for a judgement, I am

pretty sure. (someone with a JD will be able to confirm or deny without

providing legal advice, I'm sure.)

I'll say one thing, I believe Acadian would likely stand with you (and quietly

settle the whole thing out of court.) Acadian is a big company, with a good

reputation, and they heavily sell the " team " approach: their medics are backed

by call centers, by lots of docs, and their own 24-hr helicopter service. It's

in their interest to protect you as long as you did right. It's also not in

their interest for a major case to put the whole 'can medics work offshore'

question in doubt.

And lastly, if there are all these major companies (relatively speaking) with

interests in this issue, why can't we find the legal authorization for our work?

The rules for the North Sea may be a bit strange at times, but their practice is

very clearly defined with protections for all. We have -nothing- of the sort

here in the states. Experienced providers have to go back to the old standby

" best practices of the industry. " And while I agree, it is best practices, it's

a shaky leg to stand on. Will it stop me from working? No. Do I still think

about it? Hell yes.

Austin

> With all this talk going on... I think Safety Mgt Systems of Acadian has

enough experience with the offshore industry that any contracts they may have,

that have had legal input on just what Paramedics can do in state or federal

waters. It would be nice if individuals would have all their info before making

a blanket statement that Paramedics offshore or working on the oil spill are

lawsuits waiting to happen? Unless you know of someone who is filing or

planning on filing a lawsuit?

[Guest guest]

Austin.

If you practice in any emergency field you're likely gonna get sued or

in some way be named even of you perform with due dilligence tis the

nature of the beast.

On the other hand if you are gonna pra tics as if every jobs going to

be a lawsuit you will surely end up with an ulcer.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

LNMolino@...

On Jun 27, 2010, at 15:01, A Austin abaustin+yahoogroups@...>

wrote:

>

> Acadian is certainly one of the bigger third-service medical

> providers in the GoM. I have no doubt they have input legally into

> scope of practice of their medics, if only because they are the ones

> writing their company policies. However, to my knowledge, there is

> no regulation or other legal input being had by any company, simply

> because this is an issue that is going to be ignored until someone

> really screws up.

>

> I've been offshore for a number of years now, and even though I

> believe my practice is exemplary, I still recognize the inherent

> risk of every medical act offshore. I regularly use the example of a

> boat that I worked on that the deck crew liked to run around and

> kick each other in the nuts. One day, someone complained of

> testicular pain, and after my H&P, there was obvious swelling (go

> figure) but the phrase that resounded in my head was " it felt like

> my balls spun. " Is it testicular torsion or just common kick in the

> balls? I had no idea, and I wanted to evac the guy. He refused. A

> couple days later, he feels better, no problems, no worries. What if

> it was testicular torsion? You think I wouldn't have gotten sued

> even if he refused to go to the beach?

>

> EVERYTHING you do offshore has the potential for a lawsuit. One

> wrong assessment and the guy will call any one of those 'jones act

> lawyers' with billboards up and down highway 90 and they will -own-

> you. Even if you do everything right, you call medical control,

> you've covered your ass to the best of your ability, there is no

> downside for that guy to sue you and he will find some sleazy lawyer

> to take it on contingency. Even if we did everything right, if there

> isn't any legal framework for our practice offshore, that is enough

> for a judgement, I am pretty sure. (someone with a JD will be able

> to confirm or deny without providing legal advice, I'm sure.)

>

> I'll say one thing, I believe Acadian would likely stand with you

> (and quietly settle the whole thing out of court.) Acadian is a big

> company, with a good reputation, and they heavily sell the " team "

> approach: their medics are backed by call centers, by lots of docs,

> and their own 24-hr helicopter service. It's in their interest to

> protect you as long as you did right. It's also not in their

> interest for a major case to put the whole 'can medics work

> offshore' question in doubt.

>

> And lastly, if there are all these major companies (relatively

> speaking) with interests in this issue, why can't we find the legal

> authorization for our work? The rules for the North Sea may be a bit

> strange at times, but their practice is very clearly defined with

> protections for all. We have -nothing- of the sort here in the

> states. Experienced providers have to go back to the old standby

> " best practices of the industry. " And while I agree, it is best

> practices, it's a shaky leg to stand on. Will it stop me from

> working? No. Do I still think about it? Hell yes.

>

> Austin

>

>

>

> > With all this talk going on... I think Safety Mgt Systems of

> Acadian has enough experience with the offshore industry that any

> contracts they may have, that have had legal input on just what

> Paramedics can do in state or federal waters. It would be nice if

> individuals would have all their info before making a blanket

> statement that Paramedics offshore or working on the oil spill are

> lawsuits waiting to happen? Unless you know of someone who is filing

> or planning on filing a lawsuit?

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Sunday, June 27, 2010 09:34, " Bob Kellow " kellow.bob@...> said:

> Are we to conclude that EMS workers are mindless dolts who are

> incapable of protecting their own financial and professional interests?

I'd say the failure of the profession to progress in the last forty years is

prima facie evidence of that. More than half our numbers do the job for free.

It's hard to argue with those numbers.

Rob