Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

[Guest guest]

I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

other hospitals?

Jodi

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Doc P

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gene,

You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a judgement

call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated other PTs

after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked in the

field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you can try

to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive. These

medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the situation.

Chennault EMT-I/FF

Sent from my iPhone

> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> other hospitals?

>

> Jodi

>

> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

> Behalf Of Doc P

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gene,

You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a judgement

call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated other PTs

after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked in the

field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you can try

to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive. These

medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the situation.

Chennault EMT-I/FF

Sent from my iPhone

> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> other hospitals?

>

> Jodi

>

> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

> Behalf Of Doc P

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hate to be the choir in this situation, but I agree wholeheartedly. If anyone on

this list was involved or (more likely since this is a Texas list) knows anyone

who was involved with this scene, from everything I've heard, you did a great

job.

This should be the type of situation where we come to support our brothers and

sisters in EMS (and Police and Fire, though some people may resent me saying

it). The term critical incident seems to have been made for this type of thing.

My condolences, of course, to anyone who might've known someone who was lost and

my prayers are with all who were injured.

Alyssa Woods, NREMT-B

CPR Instructor

> Gene,

> You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a

judgement call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated

other PTs after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked

in the field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you

can try to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive.

These medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the

situation.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

>

>

> > I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> > curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> > scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> > other hospitals?

> >

> > Jodi

> >

> > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

> > Behalf Of Doc P

> > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> > To: texasems-l

> > Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

As I read Gene's post I don't see where he criticized anything but the use of

Helicopter EMS for an incident 8 miles from the Trauma Center with a code 3

driving time of 10 minutes.

To assume someone with Gene's experience has not worked an MCI is exactly what

each of you are criticizing him for, commenting on something you don't have all

the facts for.

Gene indicated that he would look into why HEMS was used on this scene. As

someone who lives, works and teaches EMS in Tucson, Az. I believe he would have

first hand knowledge of the use or mis-use of HEMS in Tucson.

Rick

Sent via Blackberry

From: Chennault

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 10:16 AM

To: texasems-l texasems-l >

Cc: texasems-l > texasems-l >

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Gene,

You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a judgement

call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated other PTs

after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked in the

field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you can try

to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive. These

medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the situation.

Chennault EMT-I/FF

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 9, 2011, at 9:31, " JMeere " jmeere@...>

wrote:

> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> other hospitals?

>

> Jodi

>

> From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ] On

> Behalf Of Doc P

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you believe that was his intention that he was just asking a question and not

criticizing the EMS crews then I am mistaken. I have read most of the issues

with what everyone on here is talking about and they are all criticizing someone

in some way. The use of HEMS is different for each scene so if you are not on

location it would be very difficult to assume why they made the decisions that

they did. Also at the time of the incident the traffic in the immediate area

would not be like normal due to extra emergency response personal and other

community members trying to see what was going on

On Jan 9, 2011, at 12:10 PM, rick.moore@...> rick.moore@...>

wrote:

> As I read Gene's post I don't see where he criticized anything but the use of

Helicopter EMS for an incident 8 miles from the Trauma Center with a code 3

driving time of 10 minutes.

> To assume someone with Gene's experience has not worked an MCI is exactly what

each of you are criticizing him for, commenting on something you don't have all

the facts for.

> Gene indicated that he would look into why HEMS was used on this scene. As

someone who lives, works and teaches EMS in Tucson, Az. I believe he would have

first hand knowledge of the use or mis-use of HEMS in Tucson.

>

> Rick

> Sent via Blackberry

>

> From: Chennault

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 10:16 AM

> To: texasems-l texasems-l >

> Cc: texasems-l > texasems-l >

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

>

>

> Gene,

> You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a

judgement call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated

other PTs after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked

in the field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you

can try to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive.

These medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the

situation.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Jan 9, 2011, at 9:31, " JMeere " jmeere@...>

wrote:

>

> > I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> > curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> > scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> > other hospitals?

> >

> > Jodi

> >

> > From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ] On

> > Behalf Of Doc P

> > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> > To: texasems-l

> > Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I

have to disagree with most of the criticism. Gandy is examining an

isolated decision and comparing an alternative. Just because

evidence indicates that the alternative is superior does not mean it

is an attack on those who made the decision under stress in a hectic

environment. The reason we have helicopter transport abuse in the

first place is because there are too many “sacred cows” that we

are scared to discuss out of fear of offending people.

All

that said, given the scenario of a high-profile target, intense

crowds, MCI, 15 minutes before first assessment, unknown traffic delays, and a

GSW to the head, I would have likely called for a helicopter

transport as well.

Regards,

Crocker

CC: texasems-l

To: texasems-l

From: charles_chennault@...

Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 10:16:43 -0600

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Gene,

You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a judgement

call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated other PTs

after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked in the

field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you can try

to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive. These

medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the situation.

Chennault EMT-I/FF

Sent from my iPhone

> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> other hospitals?

>

> Jodi

>

> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

> Behalf Of Doc P

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was not attempting to insinuate that he didn't have experience working an MCI,

only to express that it's a little frustrating when you work a scene and people

who were not on that specific scene come to criticize you (especially in other

forums, whether that be news, print, media, or a conversation in a firehouse

somewhere, where you either have no voice, or cannot come out and say, " You

don't understand! [Detail about a current investigation!] " . Especially when they

haven't spoken to you individually, even if that conversation is an

off-the-record affair.

Personally, I was on a scene of a shooting and someone who had heard about it on

the news started running their mouth about how it had been mishandled. They

never spoke to me, nor any of my partners, they criticized me in such a way that

I wasn't there to defend my decisions, and even if I had been there, I couldn't

have said anything (because the investigation was open). It became the general

consensus that my partner and I had acted inappropriately, and I had no

recourse. That was very frustrating, and I do not want to appear as having

talked about the judgement of a paramedic on a scene that I wasn't involved

with. I don't think that that's a productive thing to do.

I was concerned that my email could've been taken that way, so I tagged that on

the end of it.

I apologize for any misunderstanding, especially with my last post - I was

trying to voice agreement with the statement that it appears that the paramedics

did a good job - everything that I have heard announced publicly is to that

effect, and that's all the information I have that I believe to be credible, so

that's what I'm going off of, and to express the opinion that we should be

supportive of our fellows.

I apologize if my email offended anyone; it was not intended to.

Alyssa Woods, NREMT-B

HazMat Specialist

CPR Instructor

> As I read Gene's post I don't see where he criticized anything but the use of

Helicopter EMS for an incident 8 miles from the Trauma Center with a code 3

driving time of 10 minutes.

> To assume someone with Gene's experience has not worked an MCI is exactly what

each of you are criticizing him for, commenting on something you don't have all

the facts for.

> Gene indicated that he would look into why HEMS was used on this scene. As

someone who lives, works and teaches EMS in Tucson, Az. I believe he would have

first hand knowledge of the use or mis-use of HEMS in Tucson.

>

> Rick

> Sent via Blackberry

>

> From: Chennault

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 10:16 AM

> To: texasems-l texasems-l >

> Cc: texasems-l > texasems-l >

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

>

>

> Gene,

> You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a

judgement call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated

other PTs after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked

in the field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you

can try to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive.

These medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the

situation.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Jan 9, 2011, at 9:31, " JMeere " jmeere@...>

wrote:

>

> > I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> > curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> > scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> > other hospitals?

> >

> > Jodi

> >

> > From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ] On

> > Behalf Of Doc P

> > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> > To: texasems-l

> > Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

But choppers and things like CISM and all sorts if other stuff are sacred cows

and will be defended until the cows come home. Even in the face of silly things

like facts and science. This is after all the " profession " of EMS.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

LNMolino@...

> As I read Gene's post I don't see where he criticized anything but the use of

Helicopter EMS for an incident 8 miles from the Trauma Center with a code 3

driving time of 10 minutes.

> To assume someone with Gene's experience has not worked an MCI is exactly what

each of you are criticizing him for, commenting on something you don't have all

the facts for.

> Gene indicated that he would look into why HEMS was used on this scene. As

someone who lives, works and teaches EMS in Tucson, Az. I believe he would have

first hand knowledge of the use or mis-use of HEMS in Tucson.

>

> Rick

> Sent via Blackberry

>

> From: Chennault

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 10:16 AM

> To: texasems-l texasems-l >

> Cc: texasems-l > texasems-l >

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

>

>

> Gene,

> You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a

judgement call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated

other PTs after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked

in the field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you

can try to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive.

These medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the

situation.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Jan 9, 2011, at 9:31, " JMeere " jmeere@...>

wrote:

>

>> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

>> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

>> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

>> other hospitals?

>>

>> Jodi

>>

>> From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ] On

>> Behalf Of Doc P

>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

>> To: texasems-l

>> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>>

>> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>>

>> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

>> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

>> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

>> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

>> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

>> for witness statements, etc.

>>

>> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

>> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>>

>>

>>>

>>> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

>> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

>> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

>> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

>> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

>> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

>> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

>> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

>> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

>> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>>>

>>>

>>> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

>> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

>> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

>> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>>>

>>>

>>> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>>>

>>>

>>> GG

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Alyssa,

Remember my advice at Conference? Don't get me wrong here but while we can and

should pat everyone on the back after calls like this we also damn sure be

critical of EVERY run and make the next one better.

Every call like this every LODD every Patient screw up needs to be a learning

experience and at time when we learn that the screw ups were preventable and are

fixable we need to hold folks accountable. Perhaps not in the legal perspective

but from the " learn and CHANGE " perspective.

The road to he'll is paved with good intentions and the folks who paved it are

the best meaning people in the world but a hell of a lot of what's done in EMS

is meaningless and useless at best and downright dangerous at worst.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

LNMolino@...

> Hate to be the choir in this situation, but I agree wholeheartedly. If anyone

on this list was involved or (more likely since this is a Texas list) knows

anyone who was involved with this scene, from everything I've heard, you did a

great job.

>

> This should be the type of situation where we come to support our brothers and

sisters in EMS (and Police and Fire, though some people may resent me saying

it). The term critical incident seems to have been made for this type of thing.

>

> My condolences, of course, to anyone who might've known someone who was lost

and my prayers are with all who were injured.

>

>

>

> Alyssa Woods, NREMT-B

> CPR Instructor

>

>

>

>

>

>> Gene,

>> You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a

judgement call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated

other PTs after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked

in the field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you

can try to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive.

These medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the

situation.

>>

>> Chennault EMT-I/FF

>> Sent from my iPhone

>>

>>

>>

>>> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

>>> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

>>> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

>>> other hospitals?

>>>

>>> Jodi

>>>

>>> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

>>> Behalf Of Doc P

>>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

>>> To: texasems-l

>>> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>>>

>>> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>>>

>>> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

>>> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

>>> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

>>> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

>>> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

>>> for witness statements, etc.

>>>

>>> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

>>> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>>>

>>>

>>>>

>>>> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

>>> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

>>> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

>>> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

>>> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

>>> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

>>> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

>>> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

>>> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

>>> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

>>> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

>>> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

>>> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> GG

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>

[Guest guest]

Again Gene did not criticize the pre-hospital care provided, merely the

automatic dispatching of HEMS.

Regardless of what we do in life there will always be someone who will criticize

us unfairly or form an opinion based on innuendo or downright lies. If you know

you did the best job possible based on your training then don't sweat the

comments from the peanut gallery.

Rick

Sent via Blackberry

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Agreed, so all the more dangerous place to try to land a helicopter in an 80X80

square.

Rick

Sent via Blackberry

From: Chennault

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 12:20 PM

To: texasems-l texasems-l >

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

If you believe that was his intention that he was just asking a question and not

criticizing the EMS crews then I am mistaken. I have read most of the issues

with what everyone on here is talking about and they are all criticizing someone

in some way. The use of HEMS is different for each scene so if you are not on

location it would be very difficult to assume why they made the decisions that

they did. Also at the time of the incident the traffic in the immediate area

would not be like normal due to extra emergency response personal and other

community members trying to see what was going on

On Jan 9, 2011, at 12:10 PM,

rick.moore@...>

rick.moore@...> wrote:

> As I read Gene's post I don't see where he criticized anything but the use of

Helicopter EMS for an incident 8 miles from the Trauma Center with a code 3

driving time of 10 minutes.

> To assume someone with Gene's experience has not worked an MCI is exactly what

each of you are criticizing him for, commenting on something you don't have all

the facts for.

> Gene indicated that he would look into why HEMS was used on this scene. As

someone who lives, works and teaches EMS in Tucson, Az. I believe he would have

first hand knowledge of the use or mis-use of HEMS in Tucson.

>

> Rick

> Sent via Blackberry

>

> From: Chennault

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 10:16 AM

> To: texasems-l

texasems-l >

> Cc: texasems-l >

texasems-l >

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

>

>

> Gene,

> You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a

judgement call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated

other PTs after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked

in the field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you

can try to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive.

These medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the

situation.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Jan 9, 2011, at 9:31, " JMeere "

jmeere@...> wrote:

>

> > I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> > curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> > scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> > other hospitals?

> >

> > Jodi

> >

> > From:

texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l

] On

> > Behalf Of Doc P

> > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> > To:

texasems-l

> > Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

So what about the RISK added to the whole scene and such with 5 or 6 birds

screaming into the same airspace.

Didn't 2 news choppers crash over phoenix a while back when covering a car

chase?

So if a chopper were to have crashed on this job and say landed in the parking

lot of the nearby mall that's not a problem ?

One can what if this to death as I just did but at some point you need to

consider this thing called risk versus benefit. I see a boatload of risk for

what at best is minimal risk. I can cite tons of evidence showing HEMS risk in

the crash and HEMS LODD stats but I'm still looking got evidence on the so

called benefit.

The HEMS discussion has become the same as the CISM discussion and for that

matter nearly evert discussion or so it seems. Everyone seems to pick a side and

defend it evidence and facts be damned.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

LNMolino@...

>

>

>

> I

> have to disagree with most of the criticism. Gandy is examining an

> isolated decision and comparing an alternative. Just because

> evidence indicates that the alternative is superior does not mean it

> is an attack on those who made the decision under stress in a hectic

> environment. The reason we have helicopter transport abuse in the

> first place is because there are too many “sacred cows†that we

> are scared to discuss out of fear of offending people.

>

>

>

>

>

> All

> that said, given the scenario of a high-profile target, intense

> crowds, MCI, 15 minutes before first assessment, unknown traffic delays, and a

GSW to the head, I would have likely called for a helicopter

> transport as well.

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Crocker

>

>

> CC: texasems-l

> To: texasems-l

> From: charles_chennault@...

> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 10:16:43 -0600

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Gene,

>

> You are talking about an issue you were not on scene with. They made a

judgement call on the best outcome for all involved. The medics also treated

other PTs after the helicopter left the scene. You obviously have never worked

in the field of an MCI like this one. You are only looking for issues that you

can try to find fault in and not the positive that mrs. Giffords is still alive.

These medics done a great job from what I can see and understand of the

situation.

>

>

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

>

>> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

>

>> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

>

>> other hospitals?

>

>>

>

>> Jodi

>

>>

>

>> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

>

>> Behalf Of Doc P

>

>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

>

>> To: texasems-l

>

>> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

>>

>

>> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

>>

>

>> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

>

>> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

>

>> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

>

>> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

>

>> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

>

>> for witness statements, etc.

>

>>

>

>> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

>

>> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>>

>

>>> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

>

>> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

>

>> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

>

>> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

>

>> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

>

>> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

>

>> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

>

>> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

>

>> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

>

>> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

>

>> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

>

>> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

>

>> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>> GG

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>

>

>>

[Guest guest]

Just some observations:

Gene: I would like to hear about what you find out. Did the HEMS units self

dispatch? Who was in charge? What was the actual delay in using a helicopter?

Allyssa: Sorry you were criticized, but welcome to the real world. So many

people will look for what we did wrong or didn't do that they overlook all the

good actually done. It's called " not seeing the forest because of all the

trees " .

and Lou: Good points but remember " sacred cows " make great hamburgers.

All especially : No we weren't there but I can see Gene's frustration.

He has a more intimate knowledge than we do as far as what goes on EMS-wise in

Tucson. I think the main point Gene was trying to make was whether or not the

BEST thing was done for the patients. If it took a lot longer for the

helicopter response and transport than it did to " ground pound " the patient to

the nearest hospital did you really do what was the best thing for the patient?

No you didn't.

Regards to all,

Ed Brando, NREMT-P

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

As a paramedic who uses helicopter transport on a regular basis I cannot agree

that this was a stupid call or misuse of resources. Without knowing everything

that was going on at the time a helicopter may have been the best call. Could

the ambulances get out to transport, how many ambulances were on scene with all

the patients that were being treated. I thinking questioning anyone involved in

this situation is premature and uncalled for. Non of us came say what we would

have done in this situation because we are were not there and do not know all

the details. We should be supporting everyone involved and praying for all the

victims. I sure there will a time to learn from this terrible event but I do

not believe there will ever be a time to belittle the emergency responders.

Sent from my iPhone

> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> other hospitals?

>

> Jodi

>

> From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

> Behalf Of Doc P

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am intimately familiar with both that parking lot and the surrounding streets.

There was NO ingress/egress problem. If there was, it was compounded by 3 helos

occupying one of the streets. Keeping in mind that last year two helos ran into

each other trying to land at the same facility in Flagstaff, that one here in

Tucson fell out of the air for no apparent reason, it boggles the mind to think

that HELO transport was necessary in this case. If anything, the helos delayed

transport.

When is helo transport reasonable? When you're 80 miles from the nearest stroke

center and your patient just had a stroke. That's one. This case involved not

ONE patient who profited by air transport.

Air transport has its place. it is NOT in the middle of an MCI 8 miles from the

destination hospital with ground ambulances all over the place.

This happens all the time in Tucson. I can give you other instances of misuse.

It is simply part of the culture here that needs to be changed.

Period. End of story.

Gene Gandy

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then I

would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many people

trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there for

witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control it.

I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the scene of

the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was taken. The

distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right turns between the

scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic laws, drove exactly

the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to 60 seconds. Traffic was

moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100 this morning in that area.

My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been operating Code 3, the Opticom system

would have given me all green lights, cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip.

Tell me that a helo can be on scene and back at the hospital ready to unload in

10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, as I said, I know the area intimately. I know exactly where every

ambulance is housed, and I know all about the ingress/egress issues. There were

none. Nobody was leaving the parking lot. Everything was immediately shut

down. The whole area is only about 300 feet square. Look on Google Earth for

West Ina Road and North Oracle, Tucson, AZ, and you can see exactly what the

area looks like.

If traffic were a problem, as in freeway accidents, I can see it. But knowing

the area as I do, I can say very confidently that there was neither a medical

nor practical reason for landing three helos there. If anything they would have

caused an ingress/egress problem.

The truth is, which helophiles want to believe in the fact of plain facts,

helicopters are overused in Tucson. I can give other examples, book and page.

I'm not sitting off somewhere speculating. I know the area like the back of my

hand. And I am not a helophobe. I spent a lot of time in helos transporting

under appropriate circumstances. They are a godsend in the right circumstances.

This one wasn't one of those.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then I

would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many people

trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there for

witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control it.

I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the scene of

the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was taken. The

distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right turns between the

scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic laws, drove exactly

the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to 60 seconds. Traffic was

moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100 this morning in that area.

My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been operating Code 3, the Opticom system

would have given me all green lights, cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip.

Tell me that a helo can be on scene and back at the hospital ready to unload in

10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is a cultural thing in AZ. Everybody knows it. It has everything to do

with ingrained habits and nothing to do with good medicine. There are ample

ground units available, as one can see from the photos of the scene.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then I

would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many people

trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there for

witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control it.

I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the scene of

the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was taken. The

distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right turns between the

scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic laws, drove exactly

the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to 60 seconds. Traffic was

moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100 this morning in that area.

My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been operating Code 3, the Opticom system

would have given me all green lights, cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip.

Tell me that a helo can be on scene and back at the hospital ready to unload in

10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jodi,

All went to UMC initially and then 5 were transported to St 's and one to

St. Jo.

I don't know the triage order, but I do know that there were ample ground trucks

available and NO reason for 3 helos to be lined up in a row.

The patients could have been taken by taxi and got there as soon.

BTW, how are you doing? Keep me posted.

Gene

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gene,

All went to UMC first then were transferred to lower level centers?

Rick

Sent via Blackberry

From: Wegandy

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 09:45 PM

To: texasems-l texasems-l >

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Jodi,

All went to UMC initially and then 5 were transported to St 's and one to

St. Jo.

I don't know the triage order, but I do know that there were ample ground trucks

available and NO reason for 3 helos to be lined up in a row.

The patients could have been taken by taxi and got there as soon.

BTW, how are you doing? Keep me posted.

Gene

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very much. I am

talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ. The use of helos

when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural thing. I am not critical

of the medics. I am critical of the culture, and I am not alone.

Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to do with how

she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land or air. She is alive

because of the trajectory of the bullet and the skill of her neurosurgeons. The

manner of transport has nothing to do with it.

The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and there was no

medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any practical reason. Unknown to

you, there has been great and long debate here about overuse of air resources,

and there is an ongoing discussion. This is not the first questionable

incident.

I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many patients in

helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in appropriate

circumstances. This was not one.

I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts. You do

not.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello GG,

I am still working with AzA but serving part time in 911 capacity on the fort;

no codes, no intubations, no significant trauma, no mentorship, feeling way

behind the curve, waiting……. Hmmm, perhaps I should find another job.

Jodi

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Wegandy

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 8:45 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Jodi,

All went to UMC initially and then 5 were transported to St 's and one to

St. Jo.

I don't know the triage order, but I do know that there were ample ground trucks

available and NO reason for 3 helos to be lined up in a row.

The patients could have been taken by taxi and got there as soon.

BTW, how are you doing? Keep me posted.

Gene

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, but you're off base. Nothing I said had anything whatsoever to do with

whether or not the troops on the scene did a great job or not. Of course they

did. Nothing I said even remotely suggested that I do not support my brothers

and sisters in EMS, fire, police, and the water department.

My comments are about a culture of excessive use of helicopter EMS throughout AZ

but particularly in Tucson and Phoenix. It is entirely possible that the troops

on scene were not even the ones who dispatched air. One has to know the ins and

outs of the system here, which I do.

I do know some who were on scene, but I'm not going to talk to them for a while,

for obvious reasons. Sooner or later I'll find out all the details which I may

or may not reveal. This is not about them. It's about the system. Right

now, the question is when helicopter EMS is appropriate. It was not in this

case.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never make a poor

decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer you don't think

anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read that you write about.

You are an old bird that will never change your ways.

Chennault EMT-I/FF

Sent from my iPhone

> , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very much. I am

talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ. The use of helos

when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural thing. I am not critical of

the medics. I am critical of the culture, and I am not alone.

>

> Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to do with how

she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land or air. She is alive

because of the trajectory of the bullet and the skill of her neurosurgeons. The

manner of transport has nothing to do with it.

>

> The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and there was no

medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any practical reason. Unknown to

you, there has been great and long debate here about overuse of air resources,

and there is an ongoing discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

>

> I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many patients in

helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in appropriate

circumstances. This was not one.

>

> I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts. You do

not.

>

> GG

>

> Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never make a poor

decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer you don't think

anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read that you write about.

You are an old bird that will never change your ways.

Chennault EMT-I/FF

Sent from my iPhone

> , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very much. I am

talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ. The use of helos

when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural thing. I am not critical of

the medics. I am critical of the culture, and I am not alone.

>

> Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to do with how

she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land or air. She is alive

because of the trajectory of the bullet and the skill of her neurosurgeons. The

manner of transport has nothing to do with it.

>

> The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and there was no

medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any practical reason. Unknown to

you, there has been great and long debate here about overuse of air resources,

and there is an ongoing discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

>

> I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many patients in

helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in appropriate

circumstances. This was not one.

>

> I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts. You do

not.

>

> GG

>

> Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >