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Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

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Posted
Posted

Two news choppers did crash in Phoenix, and two EMS choppers both approaching

the hospital in Flagstaff ran together and crashed also. Nobody survived.

There is a place for helicopter EMS. I am not against helicopter EMS. What I

am against in useless and dangerous utilization of helicopter EMS. I am not

critical of the ground crews. Matter of fact, due to the way EMS dispatch works

here, it is entirely possible that ground crews were not even the ones to

launched the helos.

In the next few days I will be talking with folks who were there. I'm sure I'll

gain more knowledge from them.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

>>

>

>> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

>>

>

>> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

>

>> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

>

>> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

>

>> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

>

>> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

>

>> for witness statements, etc.

>

>>

>

>> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

>

>> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>>

>

>>> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

>

>> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

>

>> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

>

>> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

>

>> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

>

>> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

>

>> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

>

>> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

>

>> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

>

>> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

>

>> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

>

>> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

>

>> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>> GG

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>

>

>>

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Posted
Posted

:

I'm afraid that you need to take a deep breath, and relax a bit. You were

the one who struck the first blow in this one from my vantage point,

possibly not knowing how long Gene has been in the field, nor really reading

his

account, which covered both his reasoning and some of his experience.

I didn't see where he criticized you or the teams on the scene, but he did

criticize the use of HEMS *in this instance*, the system where HEMS may

have been inappropriately dispatched, and the additional danger on the scene

from three helos in a confined space.

I've also corresponded with Gene and known him long enough to know that he

will change his ways and opinions if given a reasoned argument with at

least some decent evidence.

Unless you were the person who wrote the script requiring the call taker to

automatically dispatch *three* helos into a crowded parking lot less than

10 miles from a Level I trauma center during a time period where traffic

was *not* congested, then you need not take such personal offense to what

he's saying.

ck

retired FP/EP/EMS physician; educator and author

former helo medic (91B2F, Ft Sill MAST program, 1980-83)

In a message dated 01/09/11 22:59:35 Central Standard Time,

charles_chennault@... writes:

Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never make a

poor decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer you don't

think anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read that you write

about. You are an old bird that will never change your ways.

Chennault EMT-I/FF

Sent from my iPhone

> , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very

much. I am talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ. The use

of helos when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural thing. I am

not critical of the medics. I am critical of the culture, and I am not alone.

>

> Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to do

with how she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land or air.

She is alive because of the trajectory of the bullet and the skill of her

neurosurgeons. The manner of transport has nothing to do with it.

>

> The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and there

was no medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any practical reason.

Unknown to you, there has been great and long debate here about overuse of

air resources, and there is an ongoing discussion. This is not the first

questionable incident.

>

> I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many

patients in helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in

appropriate

circumstances. This was not one.

>

> I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts. You

do not.

>

> GG

>

> Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

victim then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

timed to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

for its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Yes. According to the ER supervisor. That's the protocol here.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

GG how can you know the facts about this call when you were not there. Past

problems that they might have have nothing to do with the fact that everyone got

to a hospital and was treated as quickly as possible. You may know the " ins and

outs " of this service area but you do not know the ins and out of this event.

And even when you talk to whomever you know you are still only going to get a

small picture of a very large event. I am very open to both sides of the

conversation however it seems you want to point out only the negative of what

you believe to be right based on history.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 9, 2011, at 22:19, Chennault charles_chennault@...>

wrote:

> Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never make a poor

decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer you don't think

anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read that you write about.

You are an old bird that will never change your ways.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

>

>

> > , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very much. I

am talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ. The use of helos

when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural thing. I am not critical of

the medics. I am critical of the culture, and I am not alone.

> >

> > Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to do with

how she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land or air. She is

alive because of the trajectory of the bullet and the skill of her

neurosurgeons. The manner of transport has nothing to do with it.

> >

> > The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and there was

no medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any practical reason. Unknown to

you, there has been great and long debate here about overuse of air resources,

and there is an ongoing discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

> >

> > I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many patients

in helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in appropriate

circumstances. This was not one.

> >

> > I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts. You do

not.

> >

> > GG

> >

> > Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed

to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for

its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

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Posted
Posted

Sorry you feel that way, . I hope you live long enough to be " an old

bird. " LOL.

Have I been wrong? You bet. Lots. Have I changed my ways of thinking? You

bet. I used to think that the odor of diesel fuel and the whap-whap-whap of

helicopter blades had a magic effect on patient outcome. I was wrong about that

and I changed my ways.

Did I say you're stupid? Nope. Do I think you're stupid? Hell no. Have I

ever made a poor decision on a medical call? You bet. Have I ever made a call

where I didn't think I could have improved? Nope. Never.

Will I continue to raise issues that I believe affect patient care. You bet.

Do I want to hear rational debate? Sure do.

Now the floor is yours once again.

Gene

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

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Posted
Posted

You need some excitement in your life!

Gene

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

You need some excitement in your life!

Gene

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Being childish doesn't help your argument, .

Not that it was a very good argument to begin with...

Chennault wrote:

>

>

> Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never make a

> poor decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer you

> don't think anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read

> that you write about. You are an old bird that will never change your

> ways.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Jan 9, 2011, at 22:00, Wegandy wegandy@...

> > wrote:

>

> > , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very

> much. I am talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ.

> The use of helos when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural

> thing. I am not critical of the medics. I am critical of the culture,

> and I am not alone.

> >

> > Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to

> do with how she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land

> or air. She is alive because of the trajectory of the bullet and the

> skill of her neurosurgeons. The manner of transport has nothing to do

> with it.

> >

> > The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and

> there was no medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any

> practical reason. Unknown to you, there has been great and long debate

> here about overuse of air resources, and there is an ongoing

> discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

> >

> > I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many

> patients in helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in

> appropriate circumstances. This was not one.

> >

> > I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts.

> You do not.

> >

> > GG

> >

> > Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> victim then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had

> many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> everyone there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> to control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where

> she was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

> right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> all traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> timed to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected

> at 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> be on scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> shocking for its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What

> can these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system

> and which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

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Posted
Posted

Y'all are all right being childish isn't going to help but truly what does help

on here everyone seems to think they are right.

Chennault EMT-I/FF

Sent from my iPhone

> Being childish doesn't help your argument, .

>

> Not that it was a very good argument to begin with...

>

> Chennault wrote:

> >

> >

> > Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never make a

> > poor decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer you

> > don't think anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read

> > that you write about. You are an old bird that will never change your

> > ways.

> >

> > Chennault EMT-I/FF

> > Sent from my iPhone

> >

> > On Jan 9, 2011, at 22:00, Wegandy wegandy@...

> > > wrote:

> >

> > > , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very

> > much. I am talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ.

> > The use of helos when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural

> > thing. I am not critical of the medics. I am critical of the culture,

> > and I am not alone.

> > >

> > > Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to

> > do with how she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land

> > or air. She is alive because of the trajectory of the bullet and the

> > skill of her neurosurgeons. The manner of transport has nothing to do

> > with it.

> > >

> > > The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and

> > there was no medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any

> > practical reason. Unknown to you, there has been great and long debate

> > here about overuse of air resources, and there is an ongoing

> > discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

> > >

> > > I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many

> > patients in helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in

> > appropriate circumstances. This was not one.

> > >

> > > I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts.

> > You do not.

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > > Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > > >

> > > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > > >

> > > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> > available

> > > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> > victim then

> > > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> > ambulance

> > > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had

> > many

> > > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> > everyone there

> > > > for witness statements, etc.

> > > >

> > > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> > to control

> > > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> > Oracle, the

> > > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where

> > she was

> > > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

> > right

> > > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> > all traffic

> > > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> > timed to

> > > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected

> > at 1100

> > > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> > lights,

> > > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> > be on scene

> > > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> > shocking for its

> > > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What

> > can these

> > > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system

> > and which

> > > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> > thinking?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > GG

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

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Posted
Posted

Including you, I'd like to point out. But Gene is backing up his

statements with facts and experience.

And in truth, the fact that Mrs. Giffords is still alive is probably *in

spite of* the helicopter transport and not *because* of it. That is,

unless you can prove it was demonstrably faster than ground ambulance.

Uncrowded city streets, less than 8 miles from a trauma center, figuring

in launch time, the flight, landing, packaging and loading, the flight

to the trauma center, landing, offload and transport into the ED (ever

seen a helipad where you could be inside the ED seconds? I haven't.),

I'm betting that the ground crews could have finished their report and

been drinking coffee before the helo arrived.

Seeing as how Gene lives there, teaches there, knows the area

intimately, and is a paramedic well-versed in these issues (as well as

being a reasonable man), I'm going to go with his assessment. You might

do well to consider his statements objectively (and yours), and see if

they have merit. This is how learning is accomplished.

Chennault wrote:

>

>

> Y'all are all right being childish isn't going to help but truly what

> does help on here everyone seems to think they are right.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Jan 10, 2011, at 0:02, Grayson Grayson902@...

> > wrote:

>

> > Being childish doesn't help your argument, .

> >

> > Not that it was a very good argument to begin with...

> >

> > Chennault wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never

> make a

> > > poor decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer

> you

> > > don't think anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read

> > > that you write about. You are an old bird that will never change your

> > > ways.

> > >

> > > Chennault EMT-I/FF

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > On Jan 9, 2011, at 22:00, Wegandy wegandy@...

>

> > > > wrote:

> > >

> > > > , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very

> > > much. I am talking about an issue that is of great concern here in

> AZ.

> > > The use of helos when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural

> > > thing. I am not critical of the medics. I am critical of the culture,

> > > and I am not alone.

> > > >

> > > > Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to

> > > do with how she was transported. I don't know whether she went by

> land

> > > or air. She is alive because of the trajectory of the bullet and the

> > > skill of her neurosurgeons. The manner of transport has nothing to do

> > > with it.

> > > >

> > > > The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and

> > > there was no medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any

> > > practical reason. Unknown to you, there has been great and long

> debate

> > > here about overuse of air resources, and there is an ongoing

> > > discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

> > > >

> > > > I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many

> > > patients in helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in

> > > appropriate circumstances. This was not one.

> > > >

> > > > I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the

> facts.

> > > You do not.

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > > Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > > > >

> > > > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > > > >

> > > > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed

> and

> > > available

> > > > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> > > victim then

> > > > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> > > ambulance

> > > > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely

> had

> > > many

> > > > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> > > everyone there

> > > > > for witness statements, etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> > > to control

> > > > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> > > Oracle, the

> > > > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center

> where

> > > she was

> > > > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and

> two

> > > right

> > > > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> > > all traffic

> > > > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights,

> each

> > > timed to

> > > > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have

> expected

> > > at 1100

> > > > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had

> been

> > > > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all

> green

> > > lights,

> > > > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> > > be on scene

> > > > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> > > shocking for its

> > > > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes.

> What

> > > can these

> > > > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control

> system

> > > and which

> > > > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> > > thinking?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > GG

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

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Posted
Posted

Totally agree with Gene. Helicopters do have there merit in some parts of

our state (i live in phoenix area), especially in very rural areas. In the city

it is definitely a big debate and over/misuse is common.

Sent from my Palm Pixi on the Now Network from Sprint

Including you, I'd like to point out. But Gene is backing up his

statements with facts and experience.

And in truth, the fact that Mrs. Giffords is still alive is probably *in

spite of* the helicopter transport and not *because* of it. That is,

unless you can prove it was demonstrably faster than ground ambulance.

Uncrowded city streets, less than 8 miles from a trauma center, figuring

in launch time, the flight, landing, packaging and loading, the flight

to the trauma center, landing, offload and transport into the ED (ever

seen a helipad where you could be inside the ED seconds? I haven't.),

I'm betting that the ground crews could have finished their report and

been drinking coffee before the helo arrived.

Seeing as how Gene lives there, teaches there, knows the area

intimately, and is a paramedic well-versed in these issues (as well as

being a reasonable man), I'm going to go with his assessment. You might

do well to consider his statements objectively (and yours), and see if

they have merit. This is how learning is accomplished.

Chennault wrote:

>

>

> Y'all are all right being childish isn't going to help but truly what

> does help on here everyone seems to think they are right.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Jan 10, 2011, at 0:02, Grayson <Grayson902@...

> <mailto:Grayson902%40aol.com>> wrote:

>

> > Being childish doesn't help your argument, .

> >

> > Not that it was a very good argument to begin with...

> >

> > Chennault wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never

> make a

> > > poor decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any

longer

> you

> > > don't think anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever

read

> > > that you write about. You are an old bird that will never change

your

> > > ways.

> > >

> > > Chennault EMT-I/FF

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > On Jan 9, 2011, at 22:00, Wegandy <wegandy@...

> <mailto:wegandy%40aol.com>

> > > <mailto:wegandy%40aol.com>> wrote:

> > >

> > > > , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank

you very

> > > much. I am talking about an issue that is of great concern here

in

> AZ.

> > > The use of helos when not medically helpful is an ingrained,

cultural

> > > thing. I am not critical of the medics. I am critical of the

culture,

> > > and I am not alone.

> > > >

> > > > Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing

whatever to

> > > do with how she was transported. I don't know whether she went by

> land

> > > or air. She is alive because of the trajectory of the bullet and

the

> > > skill of her neurosurgeons. The manner of transport has nothing

to do

> > > with it.

> > > >

> > > > The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available

and

> > > there was no medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any

> > > practical reason. Unknown to you, there has been great and long

> debate

> > > here about overuse of air resources, and there is an ongoing

> > > discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

> > > >

> > > > I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported

many

> > > patients in helicopters and called them on numerous occasions,

but in

> > > appropriate circumstances. This was not one.

> > > >

> > > > I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know

the

> facts.

> > > You do not.

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > > Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > > > >

> > > > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it

was an MCI.

> > > > >

> > > > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling

staffed

> and

> > > available

> > > > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single

shooting

> > > victim then

> > > > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in

mind ground

> > > ambulance

> > > > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very

likely

> had

> > > many

> > > > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying

to keep

> > > everyone there

> > > > > for witness statements, etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the

best way

> > > to control

> > > > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina

and North

> > > Oracle, the

> > > > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical

Center

> where

> > > she was

> > > > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left

turns and

> two

> > > right

> > > > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC.

I obeyed

> > > all traffic

> > > > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red

lights,

> each

> > > timed to

> > > > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would

have

> expected

> > > at 1100

> > > > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07.

If I had

> been

> > > > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given

me all

> green

> > > lights,

> > > > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a

helo can

> > > be on scene

> > > > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is

not only

> > > shocking for its

> > > > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient

outcomes.

> What

> > > can these

> > > > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical

control

> system

> > > and which

> > > > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima

County, be

> > > thinking?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > GG

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

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Posted
Posted

Kind of makes scene triage worthless.

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Wegandy

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 11:04 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Yes. According to the ER supervisor. That's the protocol here.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Kind of makes scene triage worthless.

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Wegandy

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 11:04 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Yes. According to the ER supervisor. That's the protocol here.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Absolutely agree with you jane. I always learn from gene's posts and to belittle

him on this post is unwarranted.

Joanna CCEMTP, arizona

Sent from my Palm Pixi on the Now Network from Sprint

On Jan 10, 2011 6:42 AM, Jane Dinsmore

wrote:

Mr. Chennault, I didn't plan to chime in here on this subject. I have been on

both sides of this fence - flying patients out and being on a flight crew. I

understand the issues and even though I am an ex-flightmedic, I do agree that

sometimes EMS people fly patients unnecessarily at great expense to the patient

and at great risk. I also know that there are plenty of times where flight IS

indicated and needed. I don't think Mr. Gandy has ever disagreed with that last

statement because he has also had to call for a helo many times when we worked

in a very rural area and the time savings for the patient for whatever reason

was of benefit.

His statements have to do with overutilization and times when there is

unnecessary utilization of helicopter transport, and he originally popped the

question about whether or not this was the case in this instance. Mr. Gandy is

a excellent teacher as well as a gifted and talented Paramedic who has been

serving the public in this capacity (and in the legal capacity) for most of his

life. He loves to throw questions such as this out to the group to promote

discussion of the issues which, in turn, makes us all think. Some argue one

way, some argue another, but we all learn and develop thanks to discussions such

as this one. Whether or not you agree with Mr. Gandy has never been the point

with him; the discussion was the point. And for you to make denigrating

comments to or about him is extremely offensive and non-productive. Trust me,

Mr. Gandy has more experience, knowledge and education in Paramedicine than most

of the people who serve in Texas EMS today, including me, a

nd I have been doing this actively for 26 years now. While I don't always

agree with Gene on every little point, I have learned more from him than ANYONE

in EMS, Texas or nationwide, and I (and many others) highly respect him. Please

do NOT belittle him because it only makes you look bad. :)

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: Grayson902@...

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:02:23 -0600

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Being childish doesn't help your argument, .

Not that it was a very good argument to begin with...

Chennault wrote:

>

>

> Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never make a

> poor decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer you

> don't think anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read

> that you write about. You are an old bird that will never change your

> ways.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Jan 9, 2011, at 22:00, Wegandy <wegandy@...

> <mailto:wegandy%40aol.com>> wrote:

>

> > , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very

> much. I am talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ.

> The use of helos when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural

> thing. I am not critical of the medics. I am critical of the culture,

> and I am not alone.

> >

> > Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to

> do with how she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land

> or air. She is alive because of the trajectory of the bullet and the

> skill of her neurosurgeons. The manner of transport has nothing to do

> with it.

> >

> > The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and

> there was no medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any

> practical reason. Unknown to you, there has been great and long debate

> here about overuse of air resources, and there is an ongoing

> discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

> >

> > I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many

> patients in helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in

> appropriate circumstances. This was not one.

> >

> > I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts.

> You do not.

> >

> > GG

> >

> > Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an

MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed

and

> available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> victim then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely

had

> many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> everyone there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> to control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center

where

> she was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and

two

> right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> all traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights,

each

> timed to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have

expected

> at 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had

been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all

green

> lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> be on scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> shocking for its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes.

What

> can these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control

system

> and which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

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Posted
Posted

Absolutely agree with you jane. I always learn from gene's posts and to belittle

him on this post is unwarranted.

Joanna CCEMTP, arizona

Sent from my Palm Pixi on the Now Network from Sprint

On Jan 10, 2011 6:42 AM, Jane Dinsmore

wrote:

Mr. Chennault, I didn't plan to chime in here on this subject. I have been on

both sides of this fence - flying patients out and being on a flight crew. I

understand the issues and even though I am an ex-flightmedic, I do agree that

sometimes EMS people fly patients unnecessarily at great expense to the patient

and at great risk. I also know that there are plenty of times where flight IS

indicated and needed. I don't think Mr. Gandy has ever disagreed with that last

statement because he has also had to call for a helo many times when we worked

in a very rural area and the time savings for the patient for whatever reason

was of benefit.

His statements have to do with overutilization and times when there is

unnecessary utilization of helicopter transport, and he originally popped the

question about whether or not this was the case in this instance. Mr. Gandy is

a excellent teacher as well as a gifted and talented Paramedic who has been

serving the public in this capacity (and in the legal capacity) for most of his

life. He loves to throw questions such as this out to the group to promote

discussion of the issues which, in turn, makes us all think. Some argue one

way, some argue another, but we all learn and develop thanks to discussions such

as this one. Whether or not you agree with Mr. Gandy has never been the point

with him; the discussion was the point. And for you to make denigrating

comments to or about him is extremely offensive and non-productive. Trust me,

Mr. Gandy has more experience, knowledge and education in Paramedicine than most

of the people who serve in Texas EMS today, including me, a

nd I have been doing this actively for 26 years now. While I don't always

agree with Gene on every little point, I have learned more from him than ANYONE

in EMS, Texas or nationwide, and I (and many others) highly respect him. Please

do NOT belittle him because it only makes you look bad. :)

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: Grayson902@...

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:02:23 -0600

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Being childish doesn't help your argument, .

Not that it was a very good argument to begin with...

Chennault wrote:

>

>

> Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never make a

> poor decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer you

> don't think anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read

> that you write about. You are an old bird that will never change your

> ways.

>

> Chennault EMT-I/FF

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Jan 9, 2011, at 22:00, Wegandy <wegandy@...

> <mailto:wegandy%40aol.com>> wrote:

>

> > , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very

> much. I am talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ.

> The use of helos when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural

> thing. I am not critical of the medics. I am critical of the culture,

> and I am not alone.

> >

> > Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to

> do with how she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land

> or air. She is alive because of the trajectory of the bullet and the

> skill of her neurosurgeons. The manner of transport has nothing to do

> with it.

> >

> > The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and

> there was no medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any

> practical reason. Unknown to you, there has been great and long debate

> here about overuse of air resources, and there is an ongoing

> discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

> >

> > I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many

> patients in helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in

> appropriate circumstances. This was not one.

> >

> > I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts.

> You do not.

> >

> > GG

> >

> > Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an

MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed

and

> available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> victim then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely

had

> many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> everyone there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> to control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center

where

> she was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and

two

> right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> all traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights,

each

> timed to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have

expected

> at 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had

been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all

green

> lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> be on scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> shocking for its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes.

What

> can these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control

system

> and which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

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Posted
Posted

First of all, I'm in wholehearted agreement with Jane.

Second, is it just me, or does jet fuel seem to cloud all of our best

judgements? Either that, or maybe it's the freebie flight wings that some

services give for attending their free LZ safety classes. ;-)

Seriously, though, there are few reasons in most cases to request a helicopter

scene response in an urban area. More and more EMS services, including the one

I work for, are recognizing this. I wasn't on the scene in Tucson, so I'm not

going to substitute my judgement for the crews on scene, but it appears that

Arizona medics are quick to request helicopters. Part of this, I think, comes

from having a state scope of practice that limits the options available to

paramedics and does not place those same restrictions on flight nurses. As

such, there's probably an inherent bias to call a bird for a " critical " patient

based on the assumption that the flight crew can do " more " for the patient.

However, in the majority of trauma cases, what the patient needs is rapid

transport to a big building with lots of doctors, particularly surgeons.

Anyways, just my opinions.

Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, NREMT-P/Lic.P.

Sent from my iPad

>

> Mr. Chennault, I didn't plan to chime in here on this subject. I have been on

both sides of this fence - flying patients out and being on a flight crew. I

understand the issues and even though I am an ex-flightmedic, I do agree that

sometimes EMS people fly patients unnecessarily at great expense to the patient

and at great risk. I also know that there are plenty of times where flight IS

indicated and needed. I don't think Mr. Gandy has ever disagreed with that last

statement because he has also had to call for a helo many times when we worked

in a very rural area and the time savings for the patient for whatever reason

was of benefit.

>

> His statements have to do with overutilization and times when there is

unnecessary utilization of helicopter transport, and he originally popped the

question about whether or not this was the case in this instance. Mr. Gandy is

a excellent teacher as well as a gifted and talented Paramedic who has been

serving the public in this capacity (and in the legal capacity) for most of his

life. He loves to throw questions such as this out to the group to promote

discussion of the issues which, in turn, makes us all think. Some argue one

way, some argue another, but we all learn and develop thanks to discussions such

as this one. Whether or not you agree with Mr. Gandy has never been the point

with him; the discussion was the point. And for you to make denigrating

comments to or about him is extremely offensive and non-productive. Trust me,

Mr. Gandy has more experience, knowledge and education in Paramedicine than most

of the people who serve in Texas EMS today, including me, and I

> have been doing this actively for 26 years now. While I don't always agree

with Gene on every little point, I have learned more from him than ANYONE in

EMS, Texas or nationwide, and I (and many others) highly respect him. Please do

NOT belittle him because it only makes you look bad. :)

>

> Jane Dinsmore

>

>

>

> To: texasems-l

> From: Grayson902@...

> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:02:23 -0600

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Being childish doesn't help your argument, .

>

> Not that it was a very good argument to begin with...

>

> Chennault wrote:

>>

>>

>> Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never make a

>> poor decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer you

>> don't think anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read

>> that you write about. You are an old bird that will never change your

>> ways.

>>

>> Chennault EMT-I/FF

>> Sent from my iPhone

>>

>> On Jan 9, 2011, at 22:00, Wegandy wegandy@...

>> > wrote:

>>

>>> , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very

>> much. I am talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ.

>> The use of helos when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural

>> thing. I am not critical of the medics. I am critical of the culture,

>> and I am not alone.

>>>

>>> Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to

>> do with how she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land

>> or air. She is alive because of the trajectory of the bullet and the

>> skill of her neurosurgeons. The manner of transport has nothing to do

>> with it.

>>>

>>> The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and

>> there was no medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any

>> practical reason. Unknown to you, there has been great and long debate

>> here about overuse of air resources, and there is an ongoing

>> discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

>>>

>>> I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many

>> patients in helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in

>> appropriate circumstances. This was not one.

>>>

>>> I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts.

>> You do not.

>>>

>>> GG

>>>

>>> Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>>>>

>>>> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>>>>

>>>> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

>> available

>>>> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

>> victim then

>>>> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

>> ambulance

>>>> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had

>> many

>>>> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

>> everyone there

>>>> for witness statements, etc.

>>>>

>>>> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

>> to control

>>>> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

>> Oracle, the

>>>> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where

>> she was

>>>> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

>> right

>>>> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

>> all traffic

>>>> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

>> timed to

>>>> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected

>> at 1100

>>>> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

>>>> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

>> lights,

>>>> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

>> be on scene

>>>> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

>> shocking for its

>>>> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What

>> can these

>>>> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system

>> and which

>>>> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

>> thinking?

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> GG

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

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Posted
Posted

First of all, I'm in wholehearted agreement with Jane.

Second, is it just me, or does jet fuel seem to cloud all of our best

judgements? Either that, or maybe it's the freebie flight wings that some

services give for attending their free LZ safety classes. ;-)

Seriously, though, there are few reasons in most cases to request a helicopter

scene response in an urban area. More and more EMS services, including the one

I work for, are recognizing this. I wasn't on the scene in Tucson, so I'm not

going to substitute my judgement for the crews on scene, but it appears that

Arizona medics are quick to request helicopters. Part of this, I think, comes

from having a state scope of practice that limits the options available to

paramedics and does not place those same restrictions on flight nurses. As

such, there's probably an inherent bias to call a bird for a " critical " patient

based on the assumption that the flight crew can do " more " for the patient.

However, in the majority of trauma cases, what the patient needs is rapid

transport to a big building with lots of doctors, particularly surgeons.

Anyways, just my opinions.

Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, NREMT-P/Lic.P.

Sent from my iPad

>

> Mr. Chennault, I didn't plan to chime in here on this subject. I have been on

both sides of this fence - flying patients out and being on a flight crew. I

understand the issues and even though I am an ex-flightmedic, I do agree that

sometimes EMS people fly patients unnecessarily at great expense to the patient

and at great risk. I also know that there are plenty of times where flight IS

indicated and needed. I don't think Mr. Gandy has ever disagreed with that last

statement because he has also had to call for a helo many times when we worked

in a very rural area and the time savings for the patient for whatever reason

was of benefit.

>

> His statements have to do with overutilization and times when there is

unnecessary utilization of helicopter transport, and he originally popped the

question about whether or not this was the case in this instance. Mr. Gandy is

a excellent teacher as well as a gifted and talented Paramedic who has been

serving the public in this capacity (and in the legal capacity) for most of his

life. He loves to throw questions such as this out to the group to promote

discussion of the issues which, in turn, makes us all think. Some argue one

way, some argue another, but we all learn and develop thanks to discussions such

as this one. Whether or not you agree with Mr. Gandy has never been the point

with him; the discussion was the point. And for you to make denigrating

comments to or about him is extremely offensive and non-productive. Trust me,

Mr. Gandy has more experience, knowledge and education in Paramedicine than most

of the people who serve in Texas EMS today, including me, and I

> have been doing this actively for 26 years now. While I don't always agree

with Gene on every little point, I have learned more from him than ANYONE in

EMS, Texas or nationwide, and I (and many others) highly respect him. Please do

NOT belittle him because it only makes you look bad. :)

>

> Jane Dinsmore

>

>

>

> To: texasems-l

> From: Grayson902@...

> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:02:23 -0600

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Being childish doesn't help your argument, .

>

> Not that it was a very good argument to begin with...

>

> Chennault wrote:

>>

>>

>> Gene your right I'm stupid your the smart one and are god never make a

>> poor decision on a medical call. Sorry I will not speak any longer you

>> don't think anyone but you is correct on any issue I have ever read

>> that you write about. You are an old bird that will never change your

>> ways.

>>

>> Chennault EMT-I/FF

>> Sent from my iPhone

>>

>> On Jan 9, 2011, at 22:00, Wegandy wegandy@...

>> > wrote:

>>

>>> , don't condescend to me. I have worked MCIs, thank you very

>> much. I am talking about an issue that is of great concern here in AZ.

>> The use of helos when not medically helpful is an ingrained, cultural

>> thing. I am not critical of the medics. I am critical of the culture,

>> and I am not alone.

>>>

>>> Whether or not Ms. Giffords is still alive has nothing whatever to

>> do with how she was transported. I don't know whether she went by land

>> or air. She is alive because of the trajectory of the bullet and the

>> skill of her neurosurgeons. The manner of transport has nothing to do

>> with it.

>>>

>>> The fact is that there were plenty of ground units available and

>> there was no medical reason for helicopter transport, nor any

>> practical reason. Unknown to you, there has been great and long debate

>> here about overuse of air resources, and there is an ongoing

>> discussion. This is not the first questionable incident.

>>>

>>> I am neither a helophile nor a helophobe. I have transported many

>> patients in helicopters and called them on numerous occasions, but in

>> appropriate circumstances. This was not one.

>>>

>>> I will debate you on the issues but not the facts. I know the facts.

>> You do not.

>>>

>>> GG

>>>

>>> Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>>>>

>>>> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>>>>

>>>> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

>> available

>>>> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

>> victim then

>>>> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

>> ambulance

>>>> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had

>> many

>>>> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

>> everyone there

>>>> for witness statements, etc.

>>>>

>>>> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

>> to control

>>>> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

>> Oracle, the

>>>> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where

>> she was

>>>> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

>> right

>>>> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

>> all traffic

>>>> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

>> timed to

>>>> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected

>> at 1100

>>>> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

>>>> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

>> lights,

>>>> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

>> be on scene

>>>> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

>> shocking for its

>>>> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What

>> can these

>>>> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system

>> and which

>>>> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

>> thinking?

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> GG

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

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Posted
Posted

Jane,

Well stated and agreed on by this Medic. I have been doing EMS is rural

Texas since 1979, do I get an old geezer patch too?

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> victim then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had

> many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> everyone there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> to control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where

> she was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

> right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> all traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> timed to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected

> at 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> be on scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> shocking for its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What

> can these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system

> and which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

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Posted
Posted

Jane,

Well stated and agreed on by this Medic. I have been doing EMS is rural

Texas since 1979, do I get an old geezer patch too?

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> victim then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had

> many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> everyone there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> to control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where

> she was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

> right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> all traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> timed to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected

> at 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> be on scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> shocking for its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What

> can these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system

> and which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

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Posted
Posted

Very well stated Jane.  Mr. Gandy is one of the most highly respected

individuals in the EMS community, and to belittle him for trying to point out

things, or trying to help others is just flat wrong.  I have only known him for

about 10 years, but during that time, he has taught me more than I could ever

possibly learn from anyone else, and for that, I am grateful.

Thank you for all that you do Gene!

Hobbs 

> >

> > > I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would

> also be

> > > curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients

> both on

> > > scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to

> Northwest? Or

> > > other hospitals?

> > >

> > > Jodi

> > >

> > > From: texasems-l

>

> [mailto:texasems-l

> ] On

> > > Behalf Of Doc P

> > > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> > > To: texasems-l

> > > Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> victim then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had

> many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> everyone there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> to control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where

> she was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

> right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> all traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> timed to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected

> at 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> be on scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> shocking for its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What

> can these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system

> and which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

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Posted
Posted

Very well stated Jane.  Mr. Gandy is one of the most highly respected

individuals in the EMS community, and to belittle him for trying to point out

things, or trying to help others is just flat wrong.  I have only known him for

about 10 years, but during that time, he has taught me more than I could ever

possibly learn from anyone else, and for that, I am grateful.

Thank you for all that you do Gene!

Hobbs 

> >

> > > I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would

> also be

> > > curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients

> both on

> > > scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to

> Northwest? Or

> > > other hospitals?

> > >

> > > Jodi

> > >

> > > From: texasems-l

>

> [mailto:texasems-l

> ] On

> > > Behalf Of Doc P

> > > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> > > To: texasems-l

> > > Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> victim then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had

> many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> everyone there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> to control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where

> she was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

> right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> all traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> timed to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected

> at 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> be on scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> shocking for its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What

> can these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system

> and which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

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Posted
Posted

Hobbs said; " Mr. Gandy is one of the most highly respected individuals in

the EMS community, and to belittle him for trying to point out things, or trying

to help others is just flat wrong. "

I agree gene is respected but ya know to belittle even an EMS newbie for trying

to point things out is also wrong.

We often joke about eating our young and mostly that's said in jest and is fine

but at the sane time we often go overboard on that point here and elsewhere.

One EMS newbie has recently E-Mailed me off list with some very good points

because of this. I dint mind off list conversations but the points she made were

very pertinent to the conversations at hand and the masses lost out on hearing

them and that's a loss.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

LNMolino@...

> Mr. Gandy is one of the most highly respected individuals in the EMS

community, and to belittle him for trying to point out things, or trying to help

others is just flat wrong.

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Posted
Posted

Hobbs said; " Mr. Gandy is one of the most highly respected individuals in

the EMS community, and to belittle him for trying to point out things, or trying

to help others is just flat wrong. "

I agree gene is respected but ya know to belittle even an EMS newbie for trying

to point things out is also wrong.

We often joke about eating our young and mostly that's said in jest and is fine

but at the sane time we often go overboard on that point here and elsewhere.

One EMS newbie has recently E-Mailed me off list with some very good points

because of this. I dint mind off list conversations but the points she made were

very pertinent to the conversations at hand and the masses lost out on hearing

them and that's a loss.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

LNMolino@...

> Mr. Gandy is one of the most highly respected individuals in the EMS

community, and to belittle him for trying to point out things, or trying to help

others is just flat wrong.

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Posted
Posted

Gene knows adolescent hyperbole when he sees it.

Bob

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Louis N. Molino, Sr. lnmolino@...>wrote:

>

>

> Hobbs said; " Mr. Gandy is one of the most highly respected

> individuals in the EMS community, and to belittle him for trying to point

> out things, or trying to help others is just flat wrong. "

>

> I agree gene is respected but ya know to belittle even an EMS newbie for

> trying to point things out is also wrong.

>

> We often joke about eating our young and mostly that's said in jest and is

> fine but at the sane time we often go overboard on that point here and

> elsewhere.

>

> One EMS newbie has recently E-Mailed me off list with some very good points

> because of this. I dint mind off list conversations but the points she made

> were very pertinent to the conversations at hand and the masses lost out on

> hearing them and that's a loss.

>

> Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

> FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

> Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

> Please excuse any typos.

> (Cell)

> LNMolino@...

>

> On Jan 10, 2011, at 10:02, steven Hobbs

stevenhobbs@...>

> wrote:

>

> > Mr. Gandy is one of the most highly respected individuals in the EMS

> community, and to belittle him for trying to point out things, or trying to

> help others is just flat wrong.

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Gene knows adolescent hyperbole when he sees it.

Bob

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Louis N. Molino, Sr. lnmolino@...>wrote:

>

>

> Hobbs said; " Mr. Gandy is one of the most highly respected

> individuals in the EMS community, and to belittle him for trying to point

> out things, or trying to help others is just flat wrong. "

>

> I agree gene is respected but ya know to belittle even an EMS newbie for

> trying to point things out is also wrong.

>

> We often joke about eating our young and mostly that's said in jest and is

> fine but at the sane time we often go overboard on that point here and

> elsewhere.

>

> One EMS newbie has recently E-Mailed me off list with some very good points

> because of this. I dint mind off list conversations but the points she made

> were very pertinent to the conversations at hand and the masses lost out on

> hearing them and that's a loss.

>

> Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

> FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

> Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

> Please excuse any typos.

> (Cell)

> LNMolino@...

>

> On Jan 10, 2011, at 10:02, steven Hobbs

stevenhobbs@...>

> wrote:

>

> > Mr. Gandy is one of the most highly respected individuals in the EMS

> community, and to belittle him for trying to point out things, or trying to

> help others is just flat wrong.

>

>

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