Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

January 11, 2011

At least they can return fire!

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(Office)

(Office Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

" Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds

discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and

the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only

for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential

materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public

domain by the original author.

In a message dated 1/11/2011 11:39:57 A.M. Central Standard Time,

amwoods8644@... writes:

Yes but I suspect that cops are shot at a little bit more and much more

frequently.

Alyssa Woods, NREMT-B

CPR Instructor

(210) 842-6428

> But have you been shot at or had a round hit your truck on a job?

>

> Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

> FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

> Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

> Please excuse any typos.

> (Cell)

> LNMolino@...

>

> > Hey, as I've told many a patient, " I'm not the po-lice. "

> >

> > Alyssa Woods, NREMT-B

> > CPR Instructor

> >

> >> 240

> >>

> >> Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

> >> FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

> >> Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

> >> Please excuse any typos.

> >> (Cell)

> >> LNMolino@...

> >>

> >> On Jan 10, 2011, at 23:36, Alyssa Woods amwoods8644@...>

wrote:

> >>

> >>> Can I get one that says, " N00B " ? Or have I graduated to " Ricky

Rescue " ?

> >>>

> >>> Alyssa Woods, NREMT-B

> >>> CPR Instructor

> >>>

> >>>> And can I get a guess as to the third level? Old #?*!

> >>>>

> >>>> Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

> >>>> FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

> >>>> Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

> >>>> Please excuse any typos.

> >>>> (Cell)

> >>>> LNMolino@...

> >>>>

> >>>>> ,

> >>>>>

> >>>>> I am commissioning a pin, a patch, and a T-shirt for both " old

bird " and " old geezer. " You'll get both!

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Gene

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an

MCI.

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed

and

> >>>>>> available

> >>>>>>>> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single

shooting

> >>>>>> victim then

> >>>>>>>> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind

ground

> >>>>>> ambulance

> >>>>>>>> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely

had

> >>>>>> many

> >>>>>>>> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> >>>>>> everyone there

> >>>>>>>> for witness statements, etc.

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> >>>>>> to control

> >>>>>>>> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> --- In texasems-l

> >>>>>> ;

> >>>>>> ;; ,

> >>>>>>>> wegandy1938@... wrote:

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> >>>>>> Oracle, the

> >>>>>>>> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center

where

> >>>>>> she was

> >>>>>>>> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and

two

> >>>>>> right

> >>>>>>>> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> >>>>>> all traffic

> >>>>>>>> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights,

each

> >>>>>> timed to

> >>>>>>>> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have

expected

> >>>>>> at 1100

> >>>>>>>> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had

been

> >>>>>>>> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all

green

> >>>>>> lights,

> >>>>>>>> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> >>>>>> be on scene

> >>>>>>>> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> >>>>>> shocking for its

> >>>>>>>> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes.

What

> >>>>>> can these

> >>>>>>>> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control

system

> >>>>>> and which

> >>>>>>>> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County,

be

> >>>>>> thinking?

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> GG

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> =

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>> --

> >>>>> Grayson

> >>>>> www.kellygrayson.com

> >>>>>

> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>

> >>>>> ------------------------------------

> >>>>>

January 11, 2011

On Tuesday, January 11, 2011 11:39, " Alyssa Woods " amwoods8644@...> said:

> Yes but I suspect that cops are shot at a little bit more and much more

> frequently.

That's another EMS myth. I have never once been shot at as a police officer.

But I long ago lost track of the number of times I had been shot at as a medic

or fireman.

Of course, they all pale in comparison to Iraq in 06.

Rob

January 11, 2011

On Tuesday, January 11, 2011 11:39, " Alyssa Woods " amwoods8644@...> said:

> Yes but I suspect that cops are shot at a little bit more and much more

> frequently.

That's another EMS myth. I have never once been shot at as a police officer.

But I long ago lost track of the number of times I had been shot at as a medic

or fireman.

Of course, they all pale in comparison to Iraq in 06.

Rob

January 11, 2011

According to _http://www.odmp.org _ (http://www.odmp.org ) there were 59

LEO's killed by gunfire and another 2 by accidental gunfire in 2010 and as

of 5 minutes ago 2 LEO's killed by gunfire in 2011.

So much for myth huh?

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(Office)

(Office Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

" Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds

discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and

the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only

for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential

materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public

domain by the original author.

In a message dated 1/11/2011 4:58:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,

rob.davis@... writes:

On Tuesday, January 11, 2011 11:39, " Alyssa Woods " amwoods8644@...>

said:

> Yes but I suspect that cops are shot at a little bit more and much more

> frequently.

That's another EMS myth. I have never once been shot at as a police

officer. But I long ago lost track of the number of times I had been shot at

as

a medic or fireman.

Of course, they all pale in comparison to Iraq in 06.

Rob

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

January 11, 2011

According to _http://www.odmp.org _ (http://www.odmp.org ) there were 59

LEO's killed by gunfire and another 2 by accidental gunfire in 2010 and as

of 5 minutes ago 2 LEO's killed by gunfire in 2011.

So much for myth huh?

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(Office)

(Office Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

" Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds

discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and

the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only

for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential

materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public

domain by the original author.

In a message dated 1/11/2011 4:58:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,

rob.davis@... writes:

On Tuesday, January 11, 2011 11:39, " Alyssa Woods " amwoods8644@...>

said:

> Yes but I suspect that cops are shot at a little bit more and much more

> frequently.

That's another EMS myth. I have never once been shot at as a police

officer. But I long ago lost track of the number of times I had been shot at

as

a medic or fireman.

Of course, they all pale in comparison to Iraq in 06.

Rob

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

January 12, 2011

not as long as there is an appropriate screening examination, and transfer

arrangements are made.

ck

In a message dated 01/12/11 19:58:38 Central Standard Time,

abaustin+yahoogroups@... writes:

Isn't that an EMTALA problem?

> Yes. According to the ER supervisor. That's the protocol here.

>

> GG

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rick.moore@...

> To: texasems-l

> Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:50 pm

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> Gene,

> All went to UMC first then were transferred to lower level centers?

> Rick

> Sent via Blackberry

>

> From: Wegandy

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 09:45 PM

> To: texasems-l texasems-l >

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> Jodi,

>

> All went to UMC initially and then 5 were transported to St 's and

one to St. Jo.

>

> I don't know the triage order, but I do know that there were ample

ground trucks available and NO reason for 3 helos to be lined up in a row.

>

> The patients could have been taken by taxi and got there as soon.

>

> BTW, how are you doing? Keep me posted.

>

> Gene

>

> -----Original Message-----

> ;

> To: texasems-l ;

> Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:31 am

> Subject: RE: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> other hospitals?

>

> Jodi

>

> From: texasems-l ;

[mailto:texasems-l ;] On

> Behalf Of Doc P

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> To: texasems-l ;

> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed

to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for

its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

thinking?

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> > GG

> >

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

January 12, 2011

not as long as there is an appropriate screening examination, and transfer

arrangements are made.

ck

In a message dated 01/12/11 19:58:38 Central Standard Time,

abaustin+yahoogroups@... writes:

Isn't that an EMTALA problem?

> Yes. According to the ER supervisor. That's the protocol here.

>

> GG

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rick.moore@...

> To: texasems-l

> Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:50 pm

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> Gene,

> All went to UMC first then were transferred to lower level centers?

> Rick

> Sent via Blackberry

>

> From: Wegandy

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 09:45 PM

> To: texasems-l texasems-l >

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> Jodi,

>

> All went to UMC initially and then 5 were transported to St 's and

one to St. Jo.

>

> I don't know the triage order, but I do know that there were ample

ground trucks available and NO reason for 3 helos to be lined up in a row.

>

> The patients could have been taken by taxi and got there as soon.

>

> BTW, how are you doing? Keep me posted.

>

> Gene

>

> -----Original Message-----

> ;

> To: texasems-l ;

> Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:31 am

> Subject: RE: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> other hospitals?

>

> Jodi

>

> From: texasems-l ;

[mailto:texasems-l ;] On

> Behalf Of Doc P

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> To: texasems-l ;

> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed

to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for

its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

thinking?

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> > GG

> >

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

January 12, 2011

not as long as there is an appropriate screening examination, and transfer

arrangements are made.

ck

In a message dated 01/12/11 19:58:38 Central Standard Time,

abaustin+yahoogroups@... writes:

Isn't that an EMTALA problem?

> Yes. According to the ER supervisor. That's the protocol here.

>

> GG

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rick.moore@...

> To: texasems-l

> Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:50 pm

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> Gene,

> All went to UMC first then were transferred to lower level centers?

> Rick

> Sent via Blackberry

>

> From: Wegandy

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 09:45 PM

> To: texasems-l texasems-l >

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> Jodi,

>

> All went to UMC initially and then 5 were transported to St 's and

one to St. Jo.

>

> I don't know the triage order, but I do know that there were ample

ground trucks available and NO reason for 3 helos to be lined up in a row.

>

> The patients could have been taken by taxi and got there as soon.

>

> BTW, how are you doing? Keep me posted.

>

> Gene

>

> -----Original Message-----

> ;

> To: texasems-l ;

> Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:31 am

> Subject: RE: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I have been waiting for someone to bring this issue up. I would also be

> curious to investigate the order of Triage for all the patients both on

> scene and at UMC. I also understand some patients went to Northwest? Or

> other hospitals?

>

> Jodi

>

> From: texasems-l ;

[mailto:texasems-l ;] On

> Behalf Of Doc P

> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:14 AM

> To: texasems-l ;

> Subject: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed

to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for

its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

thinking?

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> > GG

> >

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

January 12, 2011

the usual...the distrust of most physicians of most paramedics and other

field personnel.

Docs who are prior service or who have come up through the ranks generally

trust the triage methods available to medics...many other physicians, who

have never had consistent contact with the medics, are less able to believe

that 'non physicians' can handle the problems. Myopia on the part of those

physicians as much as anything else.

ck

In a message dated 01/12/11 20:06:00 Central Standard Time, rick.moor

e@... writes:

But why create the need to evaluate and transfer when a little scene

triage could send the patients to an appropriate facility to begin with?

Rick