Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

[Guest guest]

Mechanism of injury rules here. That's the first and last of it. MOI. GSW goes

to UMC. Period.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

> then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

> was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

timed

> to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

> 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

for

> its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mechanism of injury rules here. That's the first and last of it. MOI. GSW goes

to UMC. Period.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

> then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

> was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

timed

> to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

> 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

for

> its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mechanism of injury rules here. That's the first and last of it. MOI. GSW goes

to UMC. Period.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

> then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

> was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

timed

> to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

> 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

for

> its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sure wish you would tell us how you really feel Gene.

Rick

Sent via Blackberry

From: wegandy1938@...

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 07:42 PM

To: texasems-l texasems-l >

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Because this is Southern Arizona. Logic plays no part.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed

to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for

its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sure wish you would tell us how you really feel Gene.

Rick

Sent via Blackberry

From: wegandy1938@...

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 07:42 PM

To: texasems-l texasems-l >

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Because this is Southern Arizona. Logic plays no part.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed

to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for

its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sure wish you would tell us how you really feel Gene.

Rick

Sent via Blackberry

From: wegandy1938@...

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 07:42 PM

To: texasems-l texasems-l >

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Because this is Southern Arizona. Logic plays no part.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed

to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for

its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

So if I forget my gun is loaded and shoot myself in the finger I am going to

UMC?

Rick

Sent via Blackberry

From: wegandy1938@...

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 07:44 PM

To: texasems-l texasems-l >

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Mechanism of injury rules here. That's the first and last of it. MOI. GSW goes

to UMC. Period.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

> then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

> was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

timed

> to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

> 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

for

> its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

So if I forget my gun is loaded and shoot myself in the finger I am going to

UMC?

Rick

Sent via Blackberry

From: wegandy1938@...

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 07:44 PM

To: texasems-l texasems-l >

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Mechanism of injury rules here. That's the first and last of it. MOI. GSW goes

to UMC. Period.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

> then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

> was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

timed

> to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

> 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

for

> its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

So if I forget my gun is loaded and shoot myself in the finger I am going to

UMC?

Rick

Sent via Blackberry

From: wegandy1938@...

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 07:44 PM

To: texasems-l texasems-l >

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Mechanism of injury rules here. That's the first and last of it. MOI. GSW goes

to UMC. Period.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

> then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

> was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

timed

> to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

> 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

for

> its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yes.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

> then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

> was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

timed

> to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

> 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

for

> its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yes.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> >

> > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> >

> > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

> then

> > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> there

> > for witness statements, etc.

> >

> > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> control

> > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

> was

> > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

right

> > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> traffic

> > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

timed

> to

> > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

> 1100

> > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> scene

> > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > >

> > >

> > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

for

> its

> > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> these

> > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> which

> > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > >

> > >

> > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > >

> > >

> > > GG

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I think the better question in that scenario is: Should we call in a patient

report & get gone or wait for the chopper?

Cause... MOI is gunshot wound...

Alyssa Woods, NREMT-B

CPR Instructor

Sent from the itty bitty keyboard on my iPhone

> Yes.

>

> GG

>

> Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> > available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

> > then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> > ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> > there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> > control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

> > was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

> right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> > traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> timed

> > to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

> > 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> > lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> > scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

> for

> > its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> > these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> > which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> > thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I think the better question in that scenario is: Should we call in a patient

report & get gone or wait for the chopper?

Cause... MOI is gunshot wound...

Alyssa Woods, NREMT-B

CPR Instructor

Sent from the itty bitty keyboard on my iPhone

> Yes.

>

> GG

>

> Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> > available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim

> > then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> > ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> > there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> > control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she

> > was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

> right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> > traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> timed

> > to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at

> > 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> > lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> > scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

> for

> > its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> > these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> > which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> > thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Reportedly, there is a request out for a " Lessons Learned Lecture " from

some of the personnel involved at the upcoming Las Vegas Trauma Conference

(next month).

ck

In a message dated 01/16/11 01:56:18 Central Standard Time,

wegandy1938@... writes:

All medical dispatch for Pima County comes from the same entity. One will

need to look carefully at what they did and why. This is going to take a

lot of sorting out.

[Guest guest]

Reportedly, there is a request out for a " Lessons Learned Lecture " from

some of the personnel involved at the upcoming Las Vegas Trauma Conference

(next month).

ck

In a message dated 01/16/11 01:56:18 Central Standard Time,

wegandy1938@... writes:

All medical dispatch for Pima County comes from the same entity. One will

need to look carefully at what they did and why. This is going to take a

lot of sorting out.

[Guest guest]

Gene (and others)….

You’ve probably read this, but MSNBC has an interesting story concerning

‘ambulance delays’ in Tucson.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/15/5843330-the-emergency-response\

-in-tucson-timeline-shows-ambulance-delays

Jack

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Wegandy

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:07 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I could go on and on about the deficiencies in our system here, but I'll just

say that living in AZ has made me appreciate just how wonderful Texas EMS is.

All Texans should be proud of the system that has developed over the last 35

years. I was in on it in the beginning, and I helped write many of the rules. We

did the right thing. We chose the maximum amount of freedom for our providers

and medical directors. We all owe Gene Weatherall, Louis Hartley, and many

others for that. There are so many who, like me, went to Austin again and again

for years, struggling with language for the rules, developing testing standards,

and so forth. The skill testing standards were something that we developed that

were, IMHO, a model for the country.

Some think I'm down on the medics at the scene. Nothing could be further from

the truth. It is the system that's bad, not the medics. Heroic things were done

by Northwest Fire, Rural/Metro, Golder Ranch, and Tucson Fire/EMS. But they work

within a framework that, in many ways, makes little sense.

I was asked today why I chose to post my concerns to the Texas list. I will try

to explain why. First, the Texas list is a big list and many people from other

states belond. Second, misuse of helicopter EMS is an issue in Texas as well as

AZ and in many other places. Third, I still know lots of people on the list and

think they might be interested in the problems we have here, as contrasted by

the problems they have.

By pointing out how things work or don't work here, I hope to help Texas folks

appreciate what they have and strive to keep it.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gene (and others)….

You’ve probably read this, but MSNBC has an interesting story concerning

‘ambulance delays’ in Tucson.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/15/5843330-the-emergency-response\

-in-tucson-timeline-shows-ambulance-delays

Jack

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Wegandy

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:07 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I could go on and on about the deficiencies in our system here, but I'll just

say that living in AZ has made me appreciate just how wonderful Texas EMS is.

All Texans should be proud of the system that has developed over the last 35

years. I was in on it in the beginning, and I helped write many of the rules. We

did the right thing. We chose the maximum amount of freedom for our providers

and medical directors. We all owe Gene Weatherall, Louis Hartley, and many

others for that. There are so many who, like me, went to Austin again and again

for years, struggling with language for the rules, developing testing standards,

and so forth. The skill testing standards were something that we developed that

were, IMHO, a model for the country.

Some think I'm down on the medics at the scene. Nothing could be further from

the truth. It is the system that's bad, not the medics. Heroic things were done

by Northwest Fire, Rural/Metro, Golder Ranch, and Tucson Fire/EMS. But they work

within a framework that, in many ways, makes little sense.

I was asked today why I chose to post my concerns to the Texas list. I will try

to explain why. First, the Texas list is a big list and many people from other

states belond. Second, misuse of helicopter EMS is an issue in Texas as well as

AZ and in many other places. Third, I still know lots of people on the list and

think they might be interested in the problems we have here, as contrasted by

the problems they have.

By pointing out how things work or don't work here, I hope to help Texas folks

appreciate what they have and strive to keep it.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gene (and others)….

You’ve probably read this, but MSNBC has an interesting story concerning

‘ambulance delays’ in Tucson.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/15/5843330-the-emergency-response\

-in-tucson-timeline-shows-ambulance-delays

Jack

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Wegandy

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:07 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I could go on and on about the deficiencies in our system here, but I'll just

say that living in AZ has made me appreciate just how wonderful Texas EMS is.

All Texans should be proud of the system that has developed over the last 35

years. I was in on it in the beginning, and I helped write many of the rules. We

did the right thing. We chose the maximum amount of freedom for our providers

and medical directors. We all owe Gene Weatherall, Louis Hartley, and many

others for that. There are so many who, like me, went to Austin again and again

for years, struggling with language for the rules, developing testing standards,

and so forth. The skill testing standards were something that we developed that

were, IMHO, a model for the country.

Some think I'm down on the medics at the scene. Nothing could be further from

the truth. It is the system that's bad, not the medics. Heroic things were done

by Northwest Fire, Rural/Metro, Golder Ranch, and Tucson Fire/EMS. But they work

within a framework that, in many ways, makes little sense.

I was asked today why I chose to post my concerns to the Texas list. I will try

to explain why. First, the Texas list is a big list and many people from other

states belond. Second, misuse of helicopter EMS is an issue in Texas as well as

AZ and in many other places. Third, I still know lots of people on the list and

think they might be interested in the problems we have here, as contrasted by

the problems they have.

By pointing out how things work or don't work here, I hope to help Texas folks

appreciate what they have and strive to keep it.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here’s a start!

http://www.dinosaursofems.com/

Jack

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Wegandy

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 11:26 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

,

I am commissioning a pin, a patch, and a T-shirt for both " old bird " and " old

geezer. " You'll get both!

Gene

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

> > >

> > > I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

> > >

> > > Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> > > HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> victim then

> > > I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> > > ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had

> many

> > > people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep

> everyone there

> > > for witness statements, etc.

> > >

> > > Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way

> to control

> > > it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North

> Oracle, the

> > > scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where

> she was

> > > taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two

> right

> > > turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed

> all traffic

> > > laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> timed to

> > > 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected

> at 1100

> > > this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> > > operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green

> lights,

> > > cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can

> be on scene

> > > and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only

> shocking for its

> > > stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What

> can these

> > > people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system

> and which

> > > dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be

> thinking?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Jack,

I had not seen this. Thank you for sending this.

This may change my position ENTIRELY on the use of medical helicopters in this

incident.

Now, I may focus my efforts on trying to determine why the system took so long

to respond.

Clearly, this was a chaotic scene, but then public safety people are supposed to

be ready to deal with chaotic scenes.

One thing that I will mention is that there are no common frequencies for Pima

County Sheriff and other responders to use. PCSO uses a system that is

incompatible with all the other systems.

It is clear that there was mass confusion, and probably the SO people on the

scene were occupied with trying to figure out whether or not there were other

shooters loose and so forth. But it does seem odd that units were held off for

so long.

There are two stations where ambulances are stationed that are approximately 2

miles from the scene. One is R/M, and the other is Northwest Fire. It is

disturbing to me that they only arrived on scene 8 minutes or 11 minutes after

the call. There seems to be a discrepancy in the MSNBC report that I'll have to

try to sort out.

All medical dispatch for Pima County comes from the same entity. One will need

to look carefully at what they did and why. This is going to take a lot of

sorting out.

We learn from incidents like this, I hope. But then again, maybe not.

Gene Gandy

Tucson

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>Southwest Ambulance (Rural/Metro Corp.) said its standard, under its state

license or so-called " certificate of necessity " issued by the Arizona Department

of Health Services, is for response within 8 minutes in 70 percent of the

medical calls. It said it exceeds those, hitting 8 minutes in at least 90

percent of calls>>

8 minutes? I tend to be on scene 4-5 minutes. Is 8 minutes a typical standard

for other EMS services around the country? I advise Tucsonians to all learn CPR

and buy AEDs.

JM

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Jack Pitcock

Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 11:27 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: RE: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Gene (and others)….

You’ve probably read this, but MSNBC has an interesting story concerning

‘ambulance delays’ in Tucson.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/15/5843330-the-emergency-response\

-in-tucson-timeline-shows-ambulance-delays

Jack

From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Wegandy

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:07 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I could go on and on about the deficiencies in our system here, but I'll just

say that living in AZ has made me appreciate just how wonderful Texas EMS is.

All Texans should be proud of the system that has developed over the last 35

years. I was in on it in the beginning, and I helped write many of the rules. We

did the right thing. We chose the maximum amount of freedom for our providers

and medical directors. We all owe Gene Weatherall, Louis Hartley, and many

others for that. There are so many who, like me, went to Austin again and again

for years, struggling with language for the rules, developing testing standards,

and so forth. The skill testing standards were something that we developed that

were, IMHO, a model for the country.

Some think I'm down on the medics at the scene. Nothing could be further from

the truth. It is the system that's bad, not the medics. Heroic things were done

by Northwest Fire, Rural/Metro, Golder Ranch, and Tucson Fire/EMS. But they work

within a framework that, in many ways, makes little sense.

I was asked today why I chose to post my concerns to the Texas list. I will try

to explain why. First, the Texas list is a big list and many people from other

states belond. Second, misuse of helicopter EMS is an issue in Texas as well as

AZ and in many other places. Third, I still know lots of people on the list and

think they might be interested in the problems we have here, as contrasted by

the problems they have.

By pointing out how things work or don't work here, I hope to help Texas folks

appreciate what they have and strive to keep it.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>Southwest Ambulance (Rural/Metro Corp.) said its standard, under its state

license or so-called " certificate of necessity " issued by the Arizona Department

of Health Services, is for response within 8 minutes in 70 percent of the

medical calls. It said it exceeds those, hitting 8 minutes in at least 90

percent of calls>>

8 minutes? I tend to be on scene 4-5 minutes. Is 8 minutes a typical standard

for other EMS services around the country? I advise Tucsonians to all learn CPR

and buy AEDs.

JM

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Jack Pitcock

Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 11:27 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: RE: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

Gene (and others)….

You’ve probably read this, but MSNBC has an interesting story concerning

‘ambulance delays’ in Tucson.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/15/5843330-the-emergency-response\

-in-tucson-timeline-shows-ambulance-delays

Jack

From: texasems-l

[mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Wegandy

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:07 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I could go on and on about the deficiencies in our system here, but I'll just

say that living in AZ has made me appreciate just how wonderful Texas EMS is.

All Texans should be proud of the system that has developed over the last 35

years. I was in on it in the beginning, and I helped write many of the rules. We

did the right thing. We chose the maximum amount of freedom for our providers

and medical directors. We all owe Gene Weatherall, Louis Hartley, and many

others for that. There are so many who, like me, went to Austin again and again

for years, struggling with language for the rules, developing testing standards,

and so forth. The skill testing standards were something that we developed that

were, IMHO, a model for the country.

Some think I'm down on the medics at the scene. Nothing could be further from

the truth. It is the system that's bad, not the medics. Heroic things were done

by Northwest Fire, Rural/Metro, Golder Ranch, and Tucson Fire/EMS. But they work

within a framework that, in many ways, makes little sense.

I was asked today why I chose to post my concerns to the Texas list. I will try

to explain why. First, the Texas list is a big list and many people from other

states belond. Second, misuse of helicopter EMS is an issue in Texas as well as

AZ and in many other places. Third, I still know lots of people on the list and

think they might be interested in the problems we have here, as contrasted by

the problems they have.

By pointing out how things work or don't work here, I hope to help Texas folks

appreciate what they have and strive to keep it.

GG

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The 8 minute response time is a standard for many EMS systems across the

country, based on the AHA Chain of Survival that suggests ALS care

within 8 minutes of a cardiac arrest.

Of course, without the first two links in the chain, that 8 minute

standard is essentially meaningless, and I have to question the wisdom

of designing an entire EMS system around 1% of our patients...

JMeere wrote:

>

>

> >>Southwest Ambulance (Rural/Metro Corp.) said its standard, under its

> state license or so-called " certificate of necessity " issued by the

> Arizona Department of Health Services, is for response within 8

> minutes in 70 percent of the medical calls. It said it exceeds those,

> hitting 8 minutes in at least 90 percent of calls>>

>

> 8 minutes? I tend to be on scene 4-5 minutes. Is 8 minutes a typical

> standard for other EMS services around the country? I advise

> Tucsonians to all learn CPR and buy AEDs.

>

> JM

>

> From: texasems-l

> [mailto:texasems-l

> ] On Behalf Of Jack Pitcock

> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 11:27 PM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: RE: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> Gene (and others)….

>

> You’ve probably read this, but MSNBC has an interesting story

> concerning ‘ambulance delays’ in Tucson.

>

>

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/15/5843330-the-emergency-response\

-in-tucson-timeline-shows-ambulance-delays

>

> Jack

>

> From: texasems-l

>

> [mailto:texasems-l

>

> ] On Behalf Of Wegandy

> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:07 PM

> To: texasems-l

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I could go on and on about the deficiencies in our system here, but

> I'll just say that living in AZ has made me appreciate just how

> wonderful Texas EMS is. All Texans should be proud of the system that

> has developed over the last 35 years. I was in on it in the beginning,

> and I helped write many of the rules. We did the right thing. We chose

> the maximum amount of freedom for our providers and medical directors.

> We all owe Gene Weatherall, Louis Hartley, and many others for that.

> There are so many who, like me, went to Austin again and again for

> years, struggling with language for the rules, developing testing

> standards, and so forth. The skill testing standards were something

> that we developed that were, IMHO, a model for the country.

>

> Some think I'm down on the medics at the scene. Nothing could be

> further from the truth. It is the system that's bad, not the medics.

> Heroic things were done by Northwest Fire, Rural/Metro, Golder Ranch,

> and Tucson Fire/EMS. But they work within a framework that, in many

> ways, makes little sense.

>

> I was asked today why I chose to post my concerns to the Texas list. I

> will try to explain why. First, the Texas list is a big list and many

> people from other states belond. Second, misuse of helicopter EMS is

> an issue in Texas as well as AZ and in many other places. Third, I

> still know lots of people on the list and think they might be

> interested in the problems we have here, as contrasted by the problems

> they have.

>

> By pointing out how things work or don't work here, I hope to help

> Texas folks appreciate what they have and strive to keep it.

>

> GG

>

> Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> victim then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> timed to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

> for its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

The 8 minute response time is a standard for many EMS systems across the

country, based on the AHA Chain of Survival that suggests ALS care

within 8 minutes of a cardiac arrest.

Of course, without the first two links in the chain, that 8 minute

standard is essentially meaningless, and I have to question the wisdom

of designing an entire EMS system around 1% of our patients...

JMeere wrote:

>

>

> >>Southwest Ambulance (Rural/Metro Corp.) said its standard, under its

> state license or so-called " certificate of necessity " issued by the

> Arizona Department of Health Services, is for response within 8

> minutes in 70 percent of the medical calls. It said it exceeds those,

> hitting 8 minutes in at least 90 percent of calls>>

>

> 8 minutes? I tend to be on scene 4-5 minutes. Is 8 minutes a typical

> standard for other EMS services around the country? I advise

> Tucsonians to all learn CPR and buy AEDs.

>

> JM

>

> From: texasems-l

> [mailto:texasems-l

> ] On Behalf Of Jack Pitcock

> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 11:27 PM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: RE: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> Gene (and others)….

>

> You’ve probably read this, but MSNBC has an interesting story

> concerning ‘ambulance delays’ in Tucson.

>

>

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/15/5843330-the-emergency-response\

-in-tucson-timeline-shows-ambulance-delays

>

> Jack

>

> From: texasems-l

>

> [mailto:texasems-l

>

> ] On Behalf Of Wegandy

> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:07 PM

> To: texasems-l

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I could go on and on about the deficiencies in our system here, but

> I'll just say that living in AZ has made me appreciate just how

> wonderful Texas EMS is. All Texans should be proud of the system that

> has developed over the last 35 years. I was in on it in the beginning,

> and I helped write many of the rules. We did the right thing. We chose

> the maximum amount of freedom for our providers and medical directors.

> We all owe Gene Weatherall, Louis Hartley, and many others for that.

> There are so many who, like me, went to Austin again and again for

> years, struggling with language for the rules, developing testing

> standards, and so forth. The skill testing standards were something

> that we developed that were, IMHO, a model for the country.

>

> Some think I'm down on the medics at the scene. Nothing could be

> further from the truth. It is the system that's bad, not the medics.

> Heroic things were done by Northwest Fire, Rural/Metro, Golder Ranch,

> and Tucson Fire/EMS. But they work within a framework that, in many

> ways, makes little sense.

>

> I was asked today why I chose to post my concerns to the Texas list. I

> will try to explain why. First, the Texas list is a big list and many

> people from other states belond. Second, misuse of helicopter EMS is

> an issue in Texas as well as AZ and in many other places. Third, I

> still know lots of people on the list and think they might be

> interested in the problems we have here, as contrasted by the problems

> they have.

>

> By pointing out how things work or don't work here, I hope to help

> Texas folks appreciate what they have and strive to keep it.

>

> GG

>

> Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

>

> I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

>

> Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and

> available

> HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting

> victim then

> I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground

> ambulance

> ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

> people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone

> there

> for witness statements, etc.

>

> Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to

> control

> it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

>

> >

> > Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

> scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

> taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

> turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all

> traffic

> laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each

> timed to

> 60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

> this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

> operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

> cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on

> scene

> and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

> >

> >

> > The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking

> for its

> stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can

> these

> people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and

> which

> dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

> >

> >

> > I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

> >

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Remember this is just a minimum to remain within the terms of the certificate.

It's sort of like minimum wage; you hope that's not what you get, but at least

you're guaranteed that.

-Brad

Sent via BlackBerry, the office that follows you.

Re: Helicopter EMS Re-Validated?

I might defend the use in this case due to the fact it was an MCI.

Depending on unit availability, distance, etc; calling staffed and available

HEMS might not be unreasonable. If it was just a single shooting victim then

I would agree with you, Gene. You should also keep in mind ground ambulance

ingress/egress issues on this particular call. You very likely had many

people trying to leave the parking lot, police trying to keep everyone there

for witness statements, etc.

Overall, HEMS is an overused resource. I don't know the best way to control

it. I don't think this is an obvious example though.

>

> Earlier tonight I drove the route from West Ina and North Oracle, the

scene of the Giffords shooting, to University Medical Center where she was

taken. The distance is 8.7 miles. There are two left turns and two right

turns between the scene and the ambulance dock at UMC. I obeyed all traffic

laws, drove exactly the speed limit, and caught 6 red lights, each timed to

60 seconds. Traffic was moderate, about what I would have expected at 1100

this morning in that area. My elapsed time was 16:07. If I had been

operating Code 3, the Opticom system would have given me all green lights,

cutting at least 6 minutes off the trip. Tell me that a helo can be on scene

and back at the hospital ready to unload in 10 minutes.

>

>

> The insane misuse of helicopter EMS in Tucson is not only shocking for its

stupidity but cannot possibly contribute to patient outcomes. What can these

people (the people who run Tucson Meds, the medical control system and which

dispatches all helicopters and all ambulances in Pima County, be thinking?

>

>

> I intend to find out. Stay tuned.

>

>

> GG

>

>

>

>