Re: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

December 13, 2010

Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics in Texas?Â

I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always ran paramedic

with a basic or intermediate partner.

Â

McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

Â

Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

To: " A A " emsn-news@...>, texasems-l

Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

Â

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

December 13, 2010

Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics in Texas?Â

I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always ran paramedic

with a basic or intermediate partner.

Â

McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

Â

Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

To: " A A " emsn-news@...>, texasems-l

Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

Â

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

December 13, 2010

As a matter of static staffing policy (and not demand or necessity), I would

speculate that there are very few - if any at all.

Bob

>

> Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics in

> Texas? I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always ran

> paramedic with a basic or intermediate partner.

>

> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

>

> From: Ron Haussecker haussecker87@...

> >

> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> To: " A A " emsn-news@... >,

> texasems-l

> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>

December 13, 2010

I don't think this article was totally correct when it stated that his

had been done before. In the previous model there was BLS and ALS units

on the street. The way I understand the proposal would be to have a

split crew (EMT-B and EMT-P) on the truck so that it would retain ALS

capabilities.

Barry

Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES

Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator

Substance Abuse Services Unit

Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Ron Haussecker

Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:58 AM

To: A A; texasems-l

Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-s

tir-1116081.html

December 13, 2010

If I remember correctly, Lubbock runs dual paramedic trucks. on County

too. I believe that several of the fire-based systems also run dual paramedic.

And several services that I've been around require the primary medic to be a

paramedic and are flexible about the certification level of the second provider.

Wes Ogilvie

Sent from my iPad

> As a matter of static staffing policy (and not demand or necessity), I would

> speculate that there are very few - if any at all.

>

> Bob

>

>>

>> Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics in

>> Texas? I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always ran

>> paramedic with a basic or intermediate partner.

>>

>> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

>>

>> From: Ron Haussecker haussecker87@...

>>>

>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>> To: " A A " emsn-news@... >,

>> texasems-l

>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>>

December 13, 2010

If I remember correctly, Lubbock runs dual paramedic trucks. on County

too. I believe that several of the fire-based systems also run dual paramedic.

And several services that I've been around require the primary medic to be a

paramedic and are flexible about the certification level of the second provider.

Wes Ogilvie

Sent from my iPad

> As a matter of static staffing policy (and not demand or necessity), I would

> speculate that there are very few - if any at all.

>

> Bob

>

>>

>> Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics in

>> Texas? I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always ran

>> paramedic with a basic or intermediate partner.

>>

>> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

>>

>> From: Ron Haussecker haussecker87@...

>>>

>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>> To: " A A " emsn-news@... >,

>> texasems-l

>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>>

December 13, 2010

City of Fredericksburg runs dual paramedics, City of San Angelo runs dual

paramedics, I believe City of Kerrville also.

Rick

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Wes Ogilvie

Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:12 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

If I remember correctly, Lubbock runs dual paramedic trucks. on County

too. I believe that several of the fire-based systems also run dual paramedic.

And several services that I've been around require the primary medic to be a

paramedic and are flexible about the certification level of the second provider.

Wes Ogilvie

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:06, Bob Kellow

kellow.bob@...> wrote:

> As a matter of static staffing policy (and not demand or necessity), I would

> speculate that there are very few - if any at all.

>

> Bob

>

> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:02 AM, McGee

summedic@...> wrote:

>

>>

>> Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics in

>> Texas? I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always ran

>> paramedic with a basic or intermediate partner.

>>

>> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

>>

>> From: Ron Haussecker

haussecker87@...

>>>

>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

>,

>> texasems-l

>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>>

December 13, 2010

City of Fredericksburg runs dual paramedics, City of San Angelo runs dual

paramedics, I believe City of Kerrville also.

Rick

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of Wes Ogilvie

Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:12 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

If I remember correctly, Lubbock runs dual paramedic trucks. on County

too. I believe that several of the fire-based systems also run dual paramedic.

And several services that I've been around require the primary medic to be a

paramedic and are flexible about the certification level of the second provider.

Wes Ogilvie

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:06, Bob Kellow

kellow.bob@...> wrote:

> As a matter of static staffing policy (and not demand or necessity), I would

> speculate that there are very few - if any at all.

>

> Bob

>

> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:02 AM, McGee

summedic@...> wrote:

>

>>

>> Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics in

>> Texas? I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always ran

>> paramedic with a basic or intermediate partner.

>>

>> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

>>

>> From: Ron Haussecker

haussecker87@...

>>>

>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

>,

>> texasems-l

>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>>

December 13, 2010

Since empirical evidence apparently doesn't mean anything (i.e., OPALS), and

governmental payers are paying less and less, thus shifting more of the

unjustified direct cost burden to the local tax base - why not staff

ambulances with residency trained, board certified emergency physicians? Oh

wait, make that two per unit. If some is good and more is better, why stop

with dual paramedic staffing?

>

> City of Fredericksburg runs dual paramedics, City of San Angelo runs dual

> paramedics, I believe City of Kerrville also.

> Rick

>

> From: texasems-l [mailto:

> texasems-l ] On Behalf Of

> Wes Ogilvie

> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:12 AM

> To: texasems-l

> Subject: Re: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>

> If I remember correctly, Lubbock runs dual paramedic trucks. on

> County too. I believe that several of the fire-based systems also run dual

> paramedic.

>

> And several services that I've been around require the primary medic to be

> a paramedic and are flexible about the certification level of the second

> provider.

>

> Wes Ogilvie

>

> Sent from my iPad

>

> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:06, Bob Kellow

kellow.bob@...

> >> wrote:

>

> > As a matter of static staffing policy (and not demand or necessity), I

> would

> > speculate that there are very few - if any at all.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:02 AM, McGee

summedic@...

> >> wrote:

> >

> >>

> >> Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics in

> >> Texas? I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always

> ran

> >> paramedic with a basic or intermediate partner.

> >>

> >> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

> >>

> >> From: Ron Haussecker

haussecker87@...

>

> >

> >>>

> >> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> >> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

emsn-news%40att.net > >,

> >> texasems-l

texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

>

> >> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

> >>

>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

> >>

December 13, 2010

Perhaps board certified trauma surgeons would even be better. They could start

the needed surgeries enroute.

Sent from my iPhone

McGee, EMT-P

> Since empirical evidence apparently doesn't mean anything (i.e., OPALS), and

> governmental payers are paying less and less, thus shifting more of the

> unjustified direct cost burden to the local tax base - why not staff

> ambulances with residency trained, board certified emergency physicians? Oh

> wait, make that two per unit. If some is good and more is better, why stop

> with dual paramedic staffing?

>

>>

>> City of Fredericksburg runs dual paramedics, City of San Angelo runs dual

>> paramedics, I believe City of Kerrville also.

>> Rick

>>

>> From: texasems-l [mailto:

>> texasems-l ] On Behalf Of

>> Wes Ogilvie

>> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:12 AM

>> To: texasems-l

>> Subject: Re: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>>

>> If I remember correctly, Lubbock runs dual paramedic trucks. on

>> County too. I believe that several of the fire-based systems also run dual

>> paramedic.

>>

>> And several services that I've been around require the primary medic to be

>> a paramedic and are flexible about the certification level of the second

>> provider.

>>

>> Wes Ogilvie

>>

>> Sent from my iPad

>>

>> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:06, Bob Kellow

kellow.bob@...

>> >> wrote:

>>

>>> As a matter of static staffing policy (and not demand or necessity), I

>> would

>>> speculate that there are very few - if any at all.

>>>

>>> Bob

>>>

>>> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:02 AM, McGee

summedic@...

>> >> wrote:

>>>

>>>>

>>>> Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics in

>>>> Texas? I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always

>> ran

>>>> paramedic with a basic or intermediate partner.

>>>>

>>>> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

>>>>

>>>> From: Ron Haussecker

haussecker87@...

>>

>>>

>>>>>

>>>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>>>> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

> emsn-news%40att.net > >,

>>>> texasems-l

> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

>>

>>>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>>>

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>>>>

December 13, 2010

Bob,

Respectfully, Rick and I were just mentioning services that do use dual

paramedic staffing. About the only universal truth that I've discovered in my

career as an EMS clinician and educator is that no one solution fits EMS as a

whole.

I've always respected your opinions even when we disagree. Reductio ad absurdum

is not something I'd have expected from you. And for the record, in several EMS

systems in continental Europe, you do get trained physicians for ALS response.

Best,

Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, NREMT-P/Lic.P.

Austin, Texas

Sent from my iPad

> Since empirical evidence apparently doesn't mean anything (i.e., OPALS), and

> governmental payers are paying less and less, thus shifting more of the

> unjustified direct cost burden to the local tax base - why not staff

> ambulances with residency trained, board certified emergency physicians? Oh

> wait, make that two per unit. If some is good and more is better, why stop

> with dual paramedic staffing?

>

>>

>> City of Fredericksburg runs dual paramedics, City of San Angelo runs dual

>> paramedics, I believe City of Kerrville also.

>> Rick

>>

>> From: texasems-l [mailto:

>> texasems-l ] On Behalf Of

>> Wes Ogilvie

>> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:12 AM

>> To: texasems-l

>> Subject: Re: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>>

>> If I remember correctly, Lubbock runs dual paramedic trucks. on

>> County too. I believe that several of the fire-based systems also run dual

>> paramedic.

>>

>> And several services that I've been around require the primary medic to be

>> a paramedic and are flexible about the certification level of the second

>> provider.

>>

>> Wes Ogilvie

>>

>> Sent from my iPad

>>

>> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:06, Bob Kellow

kellow.bob@...

>> >> wrote:

>>

>>> As a matter of static staffing policy (and not demand or necessity), I

>> would

>>> speculate that there are very few - if any at all.

>>>

>>> Bob

>>>

>>> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:02 AM, McGee

summedic@...

>> >> wrote:

>>>

>>>>

>>>> Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics in

>>>> Texas? I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always

>> ran

>>>> paramedic with a basic or intermediate partner.

>>>>

>>>> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

>>>>

>>>> From: Ron Haussecker

haussecker87@...

>>

>>>

>>>>>

>>>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>>>> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

> emsn-news%40att.net > >,

>>>> texasems-l

> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

>>

>>>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>>>

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>>>>

December 13, 2010

Better yet, how about one of each?

>

> Perhaps board certified trauma surgeons would even be better. They could

> start the needed surgeries enroute.

>

> Sent from my iPhone

> McGee, EMT-P

>

> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:41 AM, Bob Kellow

kellow.bob@...>

> wrote:

>

> > Since empirical evidence apparently doesn't mean anything (i.e., OPALS),

> and

> > governmental payers are paying less and less, thus shifting more of the

> > unjustified direct cost burden to the local tax base - why not staff

> > ambulances with residency trained, board certified emergency physicians?

> Oh

> > wait, make that two per unit. If some is good and more is better, why

> stop

> > with dual paramedic staffing?

> >

> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:14 AM,

rick.moore@...>

> wrote:

> >

> >>

> >> City of Fredericksburg runs dual paramedics, City of San Angelo runs

> dual

> >> paramedics, I believe City of Kerrville also.

> >> Rick

> >>

> >> From: texasems-l

40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:

> >> texasems-l

40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of

>

> >> Wes Ogilvie

> >> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:12 AM

> >> To: texasems-l

40yahoogroups.com>

>

> >> Subject: Re: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> >>

> >> If I remember correctly, Lubbock runs dual paramedic trucks. on

> >> County too. I believe that several of the fire-based systems also run

> dual

> >> paramedic.

> >>

> >> And several services that I've been around require the primary medic to

> be

> >> a paramedic and are flexible about the certification level of the second

> >> provider.

> >>

> >> Wes Ogilvie

> >>

> >> Sent from my iPad

> >>

> >> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:06, Bob Kellow

kellow.bob@...

>

> >>

2540gmail.com>>> wrote:

> >>

> >>> As a matter of static staffing policy (and not demand or necessity), I

> >> would

> >>> speculate that there are very few - if any at all.

> >>>

> >>> Bob

> >>>

> >>> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:02 AM, McGee

summedic@...

>

> >>

2540yahoo.com>>> wrote:

> >>>

> >>>>

> >>>> Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics

> in

> >>>> Texas? I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always

> >> ran

> >>>> paramedic with a basic or intermediate partner.

> >>>>

> >>>> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

> >>>>

> >>>> From: Ron Haussecker

haussecker87@...

>

> >>

2540cebridge.net>

>

> >>>

> >>>>>

> >>>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> >>>> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

40att.net>

>> emsn-news%40att.net > >,

> >>>> texasems-l

40yahoogroups.com>

>> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

>

> >>

> >>>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

> >>>>

> >>

>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

> >>>>

December 13, 2010

Even still better, why don't we become a force in trying to prevent the

illness and injuries that cause people to end up in the back of the

truck in the first place? Injury prevention, promoting healthy

lifestyles, seeing your doctor regularly for appropriate care (including

having a medical home)...the list can go on and on.

Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES

Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator

Substance Abuse Services Unit

Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division

Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> >>>> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

40att.net>

>> emsn-news%40att.net >

>,

> >>>> texasems-l

40yahoogroups.com>

>> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

>

> >>

> >>>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

> >>>>

> >>

>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-s

tir-1116081.html

> >>>>

December 13, 2010

We run x2 paramedics when we can get them. Most of the time x1 is a EMT going to

paramedic school. We like to train them up for everyone else. I f you try and

meet the goal of two paramedics the scheduling of sick vacation and holidays off

would certainly be easier to fill and the difference in pay for a EMT vs a

Paramedic is really not that great.

Henry

Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>> To: " A A " emsn-news@... >,

>> texasems-l

>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>>

December 13, 2010

We run x2 paramedics when we can get them. Most of the time x1 is a EMT going to

paramedic school. We like to train them up for everyone else. I f you try and

meet the goal of two paramedics the scheduling of sick vacation and holidays off

would certainly be easier to fill and the difference in pay for a EMT vs a

Paramedic is really not that great.

Henry

Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>> To: " A A " emsn-news@... >,

>> texasems-l

>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>>

December 13, 2010

Wes,

It's not reductio ad absurdum, but rather an extension of the same

" rationale " that has been employed by EMS for decades. The only thing that

matters is clinical outcomes - not preferences, not unions, not politics and

certainly not system cost increases that cannot be justified by measurable

and beneficial clinical outcomes. Using improved clinical outcomes as

the standard will necessarily distill the provision of EMS to its core

components, which in turn will produce economies that are essential to the

industry's survival - which is in my opinion is seriously in doubt.

>

> Bob,

>

> Respectfully, Rick and I were just mentioning services that do use dual

> paramedic staffing. About the only universal truth that I've discovered in

> my career as an EMS clinician and educator is that no one solution fits EMS

> as a whole.

>

> I've always respected your opinions even when we disagree. Reductio ad

> absurdum is not something I'd have expected from you. And for the record, in

> several EMS systems in continental Europe, you do get trained physicians for

> ALS response.

>

> Best,

> Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, NREMT-P/Lic.P.

> Austin, Texas

>

> Sent from my iPad

>

> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:41, Bob Kellow

kellow.bob@...>

> wrote:

>

> > Since empirical evidence apparently doesn't mean anything (i.e., OPALS),

> and

> > governmental payers are paying less and less, thus shifting more of the

> > unjustified direct cost burden to the local tax base - why not staff

> > ambulances with residency trained, board certified emergency physicians?

> Oh

> > wait, make that two per unit. If some is good and more is better, why

> stop

> > with dual paramedic staffing?

> >

> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:14 AM,

rick.moore@...>

> wrote:

> >

> >>

> >> City of Fredericksburg runs dual paramedics, City of San Angelo runs

> dual

> >> paramedics, I believe City of Kerrville also.

> >> Rick

> >>

> >> From: texasems-l

40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:

> >> texasems-l

40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of

> >> Wes Ogilvie

> >> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:12 AM

> >> To: texasems-l

40yahoogroups.com>

> >> Subject: Re: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> >>

> >> If I remember correctly, Lubbock runs dual paramedic trucks. on

> >> County too. I believe that several of the fire-based systems also run

> dual

> >> paramedic.

> >>

> >> And several services that I've been around require the primary medic to

> be

> >> a paramedic and are flexible about the certification level of the second

> >> provider.

> >>

> >> Wes Ogilvie

> >>

> >> Sent from my iPad

> >>

> >> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:06, Bob Kellow

kellow.bob@...

>

> >>

2540gmail.com>>> wrote:

> >>

> >>> As a matter of static staffing policy (and not demand or necessity), I

> >> would

> >>> speculate that there are very few - if any at all.

> >>>

> >>> Bob

> >>>

> >>> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:02 AM, McGee

summedic@...

>

> >>

2540yahoo.com>>> wrote:

> >>>

> >>>>

> >>>> Just out of curiosity, how many major services run double paramedics

> in

> >>>> Texas? I have always worked rural and smaller services and have always

> >> ran

> >>>> paramedic with a basic or intermediate partner.

> >>>>

> >>>> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T

> >>>>

> >>>> From: Ron Haussecker

haussecker87@...

>

> >>

2540cebridge.net>

> >>>

> >>>>>

> >>>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> >>>> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

40att.net>

>> emsn-news%40att.net > >,

> >>>> texasems-l

40yahoogroups.com>

>> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

> >>

> >>>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

> >>>>

> >>

>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

> >>>>

December 13, 2010

Yea but Bob if we follow that reasoning we can work our way back to one guy

in the hearse with no one in the back. We could get there faster than it

took us to get where we are today.

Henry

Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>> >> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

> emsn-news%40att.net > >,

>> >> texasems-l

> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

>>

>> >> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>> >>

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>> >>

December 13, 2010

That's not what I'm suggesting at all, Henry. What I'm saying is keep what

works and toss what doesn't work (along with their accompanying technologies

and costs), based on empirical evidence. Require technology manufacturers to

demonstrate the practicality and overall patient outcome benefits of their

gadgets before they are allowed to be introduced into the EMS marketplace

and all of a sudden become a " standard of care " - not by benefit of

scientific evidence, but rather by means of proliferation and market

saturation. Front line medics have been subsidizing this practice (through

suppressed income growth) for decades.

>

> Yea but Bob if we follow that reasoning we can work our way back to one guy

>

> in the hearse with no one in the back. We could get there faster than it

> took us to get where we are today.

>

> Henry

>

> Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> >> >> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

40att.net>

>> emsn-news%40att.net > >,

> >> >> texasems-l

40yahoogroups.com>

>> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

>

> >>

> >> >> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

> >> >>

> >>

>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

> >> >>

December 13, 2010

Does your empirical formula take into account the added burnout for the

paramedic having to take most every call? Many systems are reluctant to allow a

lower level of certification attend to a patient during transport, based in part

upon concerns of liability.

Wes Ogilvie

Sent from my iPad

> That's not what I'm suggesting at all, Henry. What I'm saying is keep what

> works and toss what doesn't work (along with their accompanying technologies

> and costs), based on empirical evidence. Require technology manufacturers to

> demonstrate the practicality and overall patient outcome benefits of their

> gadgets before they are allowed to be introduced into the EMS marketplace

> and all of a sudden become a " standard of care " - not by benefit of

> scientific evidence, but rather by means of proliferation and market

> saturation. Front line medics have been subsidizing this practice (through

> suppressed income growth) for decades.

>

>>

>> Yea but Bob if we follow that reasoning we can work our way back to one guy

>>

>> in the hearse with no one in the back. We could get there faster than it

>> took us to get where we are today.

>>

>> Henry

>>

>> Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>>>>>> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

> 40att.net>

>>> emsn-news%40att.net > >,

>>>>>> texasems-l

> 40yahoogroups.com>

>>> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

>>

>>>>

>>>>>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>>>>>

>>>>

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>>>>>>

December 13, 2010

not to mention the chance to 'recruit' a driver from the local FD so that

both paramedics can work on the patient in the back of the ambulance...

ck

In a message dated 12/13/10 15:52:01 Central Standard Time,

asclapius@... writes:

I second that opinion, Wes. As someone who has worked for a busy 911

system at times running in excess of 20+ calls in a 24 hour shift, the delirium

that sets in can't be good for a paramedic's well-being, much less the

patient's. I found A/TC's system unique in that not only can the transport

paramedics switch calls, but also bounce ideas off each other.

-Alfonso R. Ochoa, BS, RN, LP

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> From: Ron Haussecker

> >>>>>>

> >>

> >>>>

>> 2540cebridge.net>

> >>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> >>>>>> To: " A A "

>> 40att.net>

>>>> emsn-news%40att.net > >,

> >>>>>> texasems-l

>> 40yahoogroups.com>

>>>> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

> >>

> >>>>

> >>>>>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

> >>>>>>

> >>>>

> >>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>

> >>>>> ------------------------------------

> >>>>>

December 13, 2010

not to mention the chance to 'recruit' a driver from the local FD so that

both paramedics can work on the patient in the back of the ambulance...

ck

In a message dated 12/13/10 15:52:01 Central Standard Time,

asclapius@... writes:

I second that opinion, Wes. As someone who has worked for a busy 911

system at times running in excess of 20+ calls in a 24 hour shift, the delirium

that sets in can't be good for a paramedic's well-being, much less the

patient's. I found A/TC's system unique in that not only can the transport

paramedics switch calls, but also bounce ideas off each other.

-Alfonso R. Ochoa, BS, RN, LP

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> From: Ron Haussecker

> >>>>>>

> >>

> >>>>

>> 2540cebridge.net>

> >>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> >>>>>> To: " A A "

>> 40att.net>

>>>> emsn-news%40att.net > >,

> >>>>>> texasems-l

>> 40yahoogroups.com>

>>>> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

> >>

> >>>>

> >>>>>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

> >>>>>>

> >>>>

> >>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>

> >>>>> ------------------------------------

> >>>>>

December 13, 2010

not to mention the chance to 'recruit' a driver from the local FD so that

both paramedics can work on the patient in the back of the ambulance...

ck

In a message dated 12/13/10 15:52:01 Central Standard Time,

asclapius@... writes:

I second that opinion, Wes. As someone who has worked for a busy 911

system at times running in excess of 20+ calls in a 24 hour shift, the delirium

that sets in can't be good for a paramedic's well-being, much less the

patient's. I found A/TC's system unique in that not only can the transport

paramedics switch calls, but also bounce ideas off each other.

-Alfonso R. Ochoa, BS, RN, LP

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> From: Ron Haussecker

> >>>>>>

> >>

> >>>>

>> 2540cebridge.net>

> >>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

> >>>>>> To: " A A "

>> 40att.net>

>>>> emsn-news%40att.net > >,

> >>>>>> texasems-l

>> 40yahoogroups.com>

>>>> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

> >>

> >>>>

> >>>>>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

> >>>>>>

> >>>>

> >>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>>

> >>>>> ------------------------------------

> >>>>>

December 13, 2010

County (Life Care EMS) runs dual paramedics, or did.

Â

Wayne

>>

>> From: Ron Haussecker haussecker87@...

>>>

>> Subject: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>> To: " A A " emsn-news@... >,

>> texasems-l

>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-stir-1116\

081.html

>>

December 13, 2010

When I worked on a split crew truck, we did split who was in back based

on the patient's needs. If it was definitively BLS, I was in back. If it

was ALS or looked like they could change to ALS during transport, my

partner was in back. It wasn't totally 50/50 split by probably a 40/60

split between BLS and ALS. Barry

Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES

Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator

Substance Abuse Services Unit

Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Wes Ogilvie

Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 10:48 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

Does your empirical formula take into account the added burnout for the

paramedic having to take most every call? Many systems are reluctant to

allow a lower level of certification attend to a patient during

transport, based in part upon concerns of liability.

Wes Ogilvie

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 13, 2010, at 10:34, Bob Kellow kellow.bob@...

> wrote:

> That's not what I'm suggesting at all, Henry. What I'm saying is keep

what

> works and toss what doesn't work (along with their accompanying

technologies

> and costs), based on empirical evidence. Require technology

manufacturers to

> demonstrate the practicality and overall patient outcome benefits of

their

> gadgets before they are allowed to be introduced into the EMS

marketplace

> and all of a sudden become a " standard of care " - not by benefit of

> scientific evidence, but rather by means of proliferation and market

> saturation. Front line medics have been subsidizing this practice

(through

> suppressed income growth) for decades.

>

> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Henry Barber hbarber@...

> wrote:

>

>>

>> Yea but Bob if we follow that reasoning we can work our way back to

one guy

>>

>> in the hearse with no one in the back. We could get there faster than

it

>> took us to get where we are today.

>>

>> Henry

>>

>> Ambulance restaffing talks causing stir

>>>>>> To: " A A " emsn-news@...

> 40att.net>

>>> emsn-news%40att.net >

>,

>>>>>> texasems-l

> 40yahoogroups.com>

>>> texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com >

>>

>>>>

>>>>>> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM

>>>>>>

>>>>

>>

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/ambulance-restaffing-talks-causing-s

tir-1116081.html

>>>>>>

December 13, 2010

In a message dated 12/13/2010 1:11:03 P.M. Central Standard Time,

wes.ogilvie@... writes:

Many systems are reluctant to allow a lower level of certification attend

to a patient during transport, based in part upon concerns of liability.

Are they valid or perceived concerns?

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(Office)

(Office Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

" Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds

discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and

the author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only

for its stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential

materials retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public

domain by the original author.

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