Re: homeopathy and alternative medicine (long)

[Guest guest]

Lets just face it guys, Steve is a homeophobe.

C+

> Hi all

> I wasn't trying to start a major disagreement here, just trying

to

> ask people to keep open minds, based on my (admittedly somewhat

> anecdotal) experience during over 50 years of consulting typical

North

> American doctors, physiotherapists, massage therapists,

chiropractors

> and osteopaths. My main point is that there is, as yet, no

> scientifically accepted long term (25 years or more) proof that

> resurfacing is better than a THR. Logically, it would seem to make

> sense that just replacing the joint and keeping more of an

otherwise

> healthy bone is a good tactic; but, as with statistics, lots of

> dubious " proofs " can be made with logic. However, the majority of

us

> in this group managed to make the necessary " leap of faith " to

choose

> resurfacing, despite the " rigorous scientific " advice of many North

> American orthopedic surgeons. In fact, many of us travelled long

> distances and paid from our own pockets for this " alternative "

> surgery. And so far, many of us are glad we did! It cost me a small

> fortune to go to England for surgery, but it was worth it to get my

> life back. And nine months later, I'm still improving.

>

> Rigorous science needs to be reproducible and work for

everyone.

> Most of us are very happy if we find something that just works for

us

> personally, even if the evidence as to " why " it works has not yet

been

> discovered. New discoveries are made in science everyday (the guy

who

> first postulated that ulcers are caused by a bacteria was treated

like

> a pariah for several years, I've heard, yet now many ulcers are

> quickly cured with the right antibiotic). I am not going to presume

> that just because I can't explain something, or don't believe in it

> myself, it doesn't work for someone else.

>

> And maybe the historical definition of homeopathy isn't totally

> the way that homeopathic doctors operate in Europe today. I have

> certainly read that homeopathic doctors in Germany use a lot of

plant

> preparations as well as the very diluted type of medicines. The

fact

> remains that the medications (rhus tox and arnica) I received

while in

> Dr. McMinn's care were labelled as homeopathic, and the nurse told

me

> that they were such, as well. Whether they fit the classical

> definition, I don't know.

>

> Please excuse me if I make some mistakes in putting my

thoughts

> about medical issues in layman's terms. I'm not a doctor, but I

have

> had to learn a lot about my body in order to relieve pain and keep

> moving. Basically, I've had to take control of my own treatment.

When

> I only saw doctors, they just gave me stronger and stronger

narcotics

> that wrecked my stomach, and caused severe reflux. Plus they told

me

> that I had to wait weeks for diagnostic tests, and years for

surgery.

> One visit to an osteopath made a huge difference to the painful

muscle

> spasms I was getting. He knew a lot more about muscles than most

> doctors (a friend who's a doctor told me she only had two days of

> lectures about muscles in her four years of medical school at a

> prestigious U.S. university).

>

> On the other hand, when I tore a ligament, the osteopath

couldn't

> figure out what was wrong with me. A doctor who had later decided

to

> train as a chiropractor as well, and who specialized in backs, was

the

> first person to actually touch my back instead of just looking at

> Xrays, to watch me move, and to diagnose where I was injured. His

> adjustments helped some, but a registered massage therapist helped

a

> lot more. She was also the one who gave me the best exercises to

do,

> and who convinced me that I should gradually increase them, even

> though doing just two or three repetitions was agony. I would never

> have thought of visiting a massage therapist until some friends

> recommended it, based on their experiences. And at first I was very

> skeptical of her advice, but gradually I was able to exercise more,

> and the pain did reduce considerably (although due to my " locked "

hip,

> it never completely disappeared).

>

> It may be true that the effectiveness of homeopathic

medicine

> depends on the belief system of the patient, or on the fact that a

lot

> of attention is paid to the patient's concerns and stressors

(instead

> of a 10 minute rushed consultation as is common in countries with

> publicly funded medical systems such as Canada where I live).

>

> Certainly belief systems are very important. My brother, who

is a

> Vancouver trained doctor with a lot of experience, spends most of

his

> time practising in Africa. He tells of trying without success to

treat

> a very sick African patient who was on the verge of death, with

lots

> of medically verifiable symptoms. Finally, the relatives insisted

on

> calling in a " witch doctor " to remove the " curse " that someone had

put

> on the man. After the witch doctor's " treatment " , the man

immediately

> started to improve and soon got well.

> Another reason that some alternative treatments may seem to

work

> is that they relieve stress. From personal experience, I know that

> pain gets worse when I'm stressed and worried, especially if I

don't

> know what's causing the pain.

>

> > Don't be so fast to embrace TOM (traditional oriental medicine).

> I have never actually been to a TCM specialist. And I wasn't

> thinking only about their herbal remedies, but also about their

> theories of energy flows, and treatments such as acupuncture. I

> understand that many Canadian doctors and physiotherapists now use

> acupuncture with great success. But I'm not working in the field of

> medicine, so I can't point you to any specific research studies.

> >

> > Bottom line with all this -- only accept it if it works in all

> medical systems.

> Well, that's not necessarily an option, if some medical

systems

> refuse to even test or try certain remedies or practices. And if

they

> WON'T research them just because they can't patent them and make

money

> on them, that doesn't seem to me to be a valid reason to claim that

> such treatments are not valid because they are not supported by a

lot

> of scientific research... It's kind of a vicious circle, isn't it?

>

> >If you can't find a valid reason for it, then be wary.

> I am wary; I read a lot of literature about herbal remedies,

pro

> and con, and some of them I would never try. Some I have tried,

and I

> stopped taking them when they either didn't work or seemed to have

> adverse effects. Others did work well for me, but not for everyone.

> Some that worked for my friends didn't have any effect at all on

me.

>

> However, I believe, like Candace, that we don't yet know

> everything about the body and how it works. We in North America

tend

> to study the physical aspects of disease, without addressing the

whole

> situation the person is actually living in, the way some other

medical

> systems do. I think many North American women are more open to the

> holistic view of medicine (and life) than many men. It's kind of

like

> the different attitude some women have to business: they see their

> employees as complex people with very complicated lives, not just

as

> replaceable inputs to making a profit. (That's just an extreme

> example, guys; let's not get off on another argument about what's

> right or wrong in business attitudes , it's not relevant on this

> board.)

>

> A few people in this group swear by the effectiveness of

> alternative treatments such as rolfing. Others may feel that the

> rolfer is making their injuries and pain worse. Maybe for both of

> them, it's all in their mind, all in their body, or a combination

> thereof. I don't think we can yet prove precisely why some of these

> treatments work for some people, and not for others. So I'm just

> asking those who don't have any use for alternative medicine to be

> more tolerant of those who find that it works for them.

>

> It's true that " snake oil " salesmen caused Americans to be

> skeptical of anything but modern clinical medicine. It's important

to

> study our own history and learn from it. It's also important to

study

> and learn from the history and culture of other parts of the

world. We

> may be defined by our history, but we need not be limited by it...

> n

> rBHR Oct.2003 McMinn

[Guest guest]

-Great post, n! My sentiments exactly! ...and there's no

better forum for a discussion on homeopathy and alternative medicine!

I'll bet all of us have tried some of it at one time or another!

Also, I'll add that my husband frequently travels to Haiti where he

has a medical clinic...I've also been ...and those voodoo docs work

wonders in a country where medical doctors are few and far between.

Susie in Memphis

-- In surfacehippy , " Roche "

wrote:

> Lets just face it guys, Steve is a homeophobe.

> C+

>

>

>

> > Hi all

> > I wasn't trying to start a major disagreement here, just

trying

> to

> > ask people to keep open minds, based on my (admittedly somewhat

> > anecdotal) experience during over 50 years of consulting typical

> North

> > American doctors, physiotherapists, massage therapists,

> chiropractors

> > and osteopaths. My main point is that there is, as yet, no

> > scientifically accepted long term (25 years or more) proof that

> > resurfacing is better than a THR. Logically, it would seem to make

> > sense that just replacing the joint and keeping more of an

> otherwise

> > healthy bone is a good tactic; but, as with statistics, lots of

> > dubious " proofs " can be made with logic. However, the majority of

> us

> > in this group managed to make the necessary " leap of faith " to

> choose

> > resurfacing, despite the " rigorous scientific " advice of many

North

> > American orthopedic surgeons. In fact, many of us travelled long

> > distances and paid from our own pockets for this " alternative "

> > surgery. And so far, many of us are glad we did! It cost me a

small

> > fortune to go to England for surgery, but it was worth it to get

my

> > life back. And nine months later, I'm still improving.

> >

> > Rigorous science needs to be reproducible and work for

> everyone.

> > Most of us are very happy if we find something that just works

for

> us

> > personally, even if the evidence as to " why " it works has not yet

> been

> > discovered. New discoveries are made in science everyday (the guy

> who

> > first postulated that ulcers are caused by a bacteria was treated

> like

> > a pariah for several years, I've heard, yet now many ulcers are

> > quickly cured with the right antibiotic). I am not going to

presume

> > that just because I can't explain something, or don't believe in

it

> > myself, it doesn't work for someone else.

> >

> > And maybe the historical definition of homeopathy isn't

totally

> > the way that homeopathic doctors operate in Europe today. I have

> > certainly read that homeopathic doctors in Germany use a lot of

> plant

> > preparations as well as the very diluted type of medicines. The

> fact

> > remains that the medications (rhus tox and arnica) I received

> while in

> > Dr. McMinn's care were labelled as homeopathic, and the nurse

told

> me

> > that they were such, as well. Whether they fit the classical

> > definition, I don't know.

> >

> > Please excuse me if I make some mistakes in putting my

> thoughts

> > about medical issues in layman's terms. I'm not a doctor, but I

> have

> > had to learn a lot about my body in order to relieve pain and keep

> > moving. Basically, I've had to take control of my own treatment.

> When

> > I only saw doctors, they just gave me stronger and stronger

> narcotics

> > that wrecked my stomach, and caused severe reflux. Plus they told

> me

> > that I had to wait weeks for diagnostic tests, and years for

> surgery.

> > One visit to an osteopath made a huge difference to the painful

> muscle

> > spasms I was getting. He knew a lot more about muscles than most

> > doctors (a friend who's a doctor told me she only had two days of

> > lectures about muscles in her four years of medical school at a

> > prestigious U.S. university).

> >

> > On the other hand, when I tore a ligament, the osteopath

> couldn't

> > figure out what was wrong with me. A doctor who had later decided

> to

> > train as a chiropractor as well, and who specialized in backs,

was

> the

> > first person to actually touch my back instead of just looking at

> > Xrays, to watch me move, and to diagnose where I was injured. His

> > adjustments helped some, but a registered massage therapist

helped

> a

> > lot more. She was also the one who gave me the best exercises to

> do,

> > and who convinced me that I should gradually increase them, even

> > though doing just two or three repetitions was agony. I would

never

> > have thought of visiting a massage therapist until some friends

> > recommended it, based on their experiences. And at first I was

very

> > skeptical of her advice, but gradually I was able to exercise

more,

> > and the pain did reduce considerably (although due to my " locked "

> hip,

> > it never completely disappeared).

> >

> > It may be true that the effectiveness of homeopathic

> medicine

> > depends on the belief system of the patient, or on the fact that

a

> lot

> > of attention is paid to the patient's concerns and stressors

> (instead

> > of a 10 minute rushed consultation as is common in countries with

> > publicly funded medical systems such as Canada where I live).

> >

> > Certainly belief systems are very important. My brother, who

> is a

> > Vancouver trained doctor with a lot of experience, spends most of

> his

> > time practising in Africa. He tells of trying without success to

> treat

> > a very sick African patient who was on the verge of death, with

> lots

> > of medically verifiable symptoms. Finally, the relatives insisted

> on

> > calling in a " witch doctor " to remove the " curse " that someone

had

> put

> > on the man. After the witch doctor's " treatment " , the man

> immediately

> > started to improve and soon got well.

> > Another reason that some alternative treatments may seem to

> work

> > is that they relieve stress. From personal experience, I know that

> > pain gets worse when I'm stressed and worried, especially if I

> don't

> > know what's causing the pain.

> >

> > > Don't be so fast to embrace TOM (traditional oriental medicine).

> > I have never actually been to a TCM specialist. And I

wasn't

> > thinking only about their herbal remedies, but also about their

> > theories of energy flows, and treatments such as acupuncture. I

> > understand that many Canadian doctors and physiotherapists now use

> > acupuncture with great success. But I'm not working in the field

of

> > medicine, so I can't point you to any specific research studies.

> > >

> > > Bottom line with all this -- only accept it if it works in all

> > medical systems.

> > Well, that's not necessarily an option, if some medical

> systems

> > refuse to even test or try certain remedies or practices. And if

> they

> > WON'T research them just because they can't patent them and make

> money

> > on them, that doesn't seem to me to be a valid reason to claim

that

> > such treatments are not valid because they are not supported by a

> lot

> > of scientific research... It's kind of a vicious circle, isn't it?

> >

> > >If you can't find a valid reason for it, then be wary.

> > I am wary; I read a lot of literature about herbal remedies,

> pro

> > and con, and some of them I would never try. Some I have tried,

> and I

> > stopped taking them when they either didn't work or seemed to have

> > adverse effects. Others did work well for me, but not for

everyone.

> > Some that worked for my friends didn't have any effect at all on

> me.

> >

> > However, I believe, like Candace, that we don't yet know

> > everything about the body and how it works. We in North America

> tend

> > to study the physical aspects of disease, without addressing the

> whole

> > situation the person is actually living in, the way some other

> medical

> > systems do. I think many North American women are more open to the

> > holistic view of medicine (and life) than many men. It's kind of

> like

> > the different attitude some women have to business: they see their

> > employees as complex people with very complicated lives, not just

> as

> > replaceable inputs to making a profit. (That's just an extreme

> > example, guys; let's not get off on another argument about what's

> > right or wrong in business attitudes , it's not relevant on

this

> > board.)

> >

> > A few people in this group swear by the effectiveness of

> > alternative treatments such as rolfing. Others may feel that the

> > rolfer is making their injuries and pain worse. Maybe for both of

> > them, it's all in their mind, all in their body, or a combination

> > thereof. I don't think we can yet prove precisely why some of

these

> > treatments work for some people, and not for others. So I'm just

> > asking those who don't have any use for alternative medicine to be

> > more tolerant of those who find that it works for them.

> >

> > It's true that " snake oil " salesmen caused Americans to be

> > skeptical of anything but modern clinical medicine. It's

important

> to

> > study our own history and learn from it. It's also important to

> study

> > and learn from the history and culture of other parts of the

> world. We

> > may be defined by our history, but we need not be limited by it...

> > n

> > rBHR Oct.2003 McMinn

[Guest guest]

-Great post, n! My sentiments exactly! ...and there's no

better forum for a discussion on homeopathy and alternative medicine!

I'll bet all of us have tried some of it at one time or another!

Also, I'll add that my husband frequently travels to Haiti where he

has a medical clinic...I've also been ...and those voodoo docs work

wonders in a country where medical doctors are few and far between.

Susie in Memphis

-- In surfacehippy , " Roche "

wrote:

> Lets just face it guys, Steve is a homeophobe.

> C+

>

>

>

> > Hi all

> > I wasn't trying to start a major disagreement here, just

trying

> to

> > ask people to keep open minds, based on my (admittedly somewhat

> > anecdotal) experience during over 50 years of consulting typical

> North

> > American doctors, physiotherapists, massage therapists,

> chiropractors

> > and osteopaths. My main point is that there is, as yet, no

> > scientifically accepted long term (25 years or more) proof that

> > resurfacing is better than a THR. Logically, it would seem to make

> > sense that just replacing the joint and keeping more of an

> otherwise

> > healthy bone is a good tactic; but, as with statistics, lots of

> > dubious " proofs " can be made with logic. However, the majority of

> us

> > in this group managed to make the necessary " leap of faith " to

> choose

> > resurfacing, despite the " rigorous scientific " advice of many

North

> > American orthopedic surgeons. In fact, many of us travelled long

> > distances and paid from our own pockets for this " alternative "

> > surgery. And so far, many of us are glad we did! It cost me a

small

> > fortune to go to England for surgery, but it was worth it to get

my

> > life back. And nine months later, I'm still improving.

> >

> > Rigorous science needs to be reproducible and work for

> everyone.

> > Most of us are very happy if we find something that just works

for

> us

> > personally, even if the evidence as to " why " it works has not yet

> been

> > discovered. New discoveries are made in science everyday (the guy

> who

> > first postulated that ulcers are caused by a bacteria was treated

> like

> > a pariah for several years, I've heard, yet now many ulcers are

> > quickly cured with the right antibiotic). I am not going to

presume

> > that just because I can't explain something, or don't believe in

it

> > myself, it doesn't work for someone else.

> >

> > And maybe the historical definition of homeopathy isn't

totally

> > the way that homeopathic doctors operate in Europe today. I have

> > certainly read that homeopathic doctors in Germany use a lot of

> plant

> > preparations as well as the very diluted type of medicines. The

> fact

> > remains that the medications (rhus tox and arnica) I received

> while in

> > Dr. McMinn's care were labelled as homeopathic, and the nurse

told

> me

> > that they were such, as well. Whether they fit the classical

> > definition, I don't know.

> >

> > Please excuse me if I make some mistakes in putting my

> thoughts

> > about medical issues in layman's terms. I'm not a doctor, but I

> have

> > had to learn a lot about my body in order to relieve pain and keep

> > moving. Basically, I've had to take control of my own treatment.

> When

> > I only saw doctors, they just gave me stronger and stronger

> narcotics

> > that wrecked my stomach, and caused severe reflux. Plus they told

> me

> > that I had to wait weeks for diagnostic tests, and years for

> surgery.

> > One visit to an osteopath made a huge difference to the painful

> muscle

> > spasms I was getting. He knew a lot more about muscles than most

> > doctors (a friend who's a doctor told me she only had two days of

> > lectures about muscles in her four years of medical school at a

> > prestigious U.S. university).

> >

> > On the other hand, when I tore a ligament, the osteopath

> couldn't

> > figure out what was wrong with me. A doctor who had later decided

> to

> > train as a chiropractor as well, and who specialized in backs,

was

> the

> > first person to actually touch my back instead of just looking at

> > Xrays, to watch me move, and to diagnose where I was injured. His

> > adjustments helped some, but a registered massage therapist

helped

> a

> > lot more. She was also the one who gave me the best exercises to

> do,

> > and who convinced me that I should gradually increase them, even

> > though doing just two or three repetitions was agony. I would

never

> > have thought of visiting a massage therapist until some friends

> > recommended it, based on their experiences. And at first I was

very

> > skeptical of her advice, but gradually I was able to exercise

more,

> > and the pain did reduce considerably (although due to my " locked "

> hip,

> > it never completely disappeared).

> >

> > It may be true that the effectiveness of homeopathic

> medicine

> > depends on the belief system of the patient, or on the fact that

a

> lot

> > of attention is paid to the patient's concerns and stressors

> (instead

> > of a 10 minute rushed consultation as is common in countries with

> > publicly funded medical systems such as Canada where I live).

> >

> > Certainly belief systems are very important. My brother, who

> is a

> > Vancouver trained doctor with a lot of experience, spends most of

> his

> > time practising in Africa. He tells of trying without success to

> treat

> > a very sick African patient who was on the verge of death, with

> lots

> > of medically verifiable symptoms. Finally, the relatives insisted

> on

> > calling in a " witch doctor " to remove the " curse " that someone

had

> put

> > on the man. After the witch doctor's " treatment " , the man

> immediately

> > started to improve and soon got well.

> > Another reason that some alternative treatments may seem to

> work

> > is that they relieve stress. From personal experience, I know that

> > pain gets worse when I'm stressed and worried, especially if I

> don't

> > know what's causing the pain.

> >

> > > Don't be so fast to embrace TOM (traditional oriental medicine).

> > I have never actually been to a TCM specialist. And I

wasn't

> > thinking only about their herbal remedies, but also about their

> > theories of energy flows, and treatments such as acupuncture. I

> > understand that many Canadian doctors and physiotherapists now use

> > acupuncture with great success. But I'm not working in the field

of

> > medicine, so I can't point you to any specific research studies.

> > >

> > > Bottom line with all this -- only accept it if it works in all

> > medical systems.

> > Well, that's not necessarily an option, if some medical

> systems

> > refuse to even test or try certain remedies or practices. And if

> they

> > WON'T research them just because they can't patent them and make

> money

> > on them, that doesn't seem to me to be a valid reason to claim

that

> > such treatments are not valid because they are not supported by a

> lot

> > of scientific research... It's kind of a vicious circle, isn't it?

> >

> > >If you can't find a valid reason for it, then be wary.

> > I am wary; I read a lot of literature about herbal remedies,

> pro

> > and con, and some of them I would never try. Some I have tried,

> and I

> > stopped taking them when they either didn't work or seemed to have

> > adverse effects. Others did work well for me, but not for

everyone.

> > Some that worked for my friends didn't have any effect at all on

> me.

> >

> > However, I believe, like Candace, that we don't yet know

> > everything about the body and how it works. We in North America

> tend

> > to study the physical aspects of disease, without addressing the

> whole

> > situation the person is actually living in, the way some other

> medical

> > systems do. I think many North American women are more open to the

> > holistic view of medicine (and life) than many men. It's kind of

> like

> > the different attitude some women have to business: they see their

> > employees as complex people with very complicated lives, not just

> as

> > replaceable inputs to making a profit. (That's just an extreme

> > example, guys; let's not get off on another argument about what's

> > right or wrong in business attitudes , it's not relevant on

this

> > board.)

> >

> > A few people in this group swear by the effectiveness of

> > alternative treatments such as rolfing. Others may feel that the

> > rolfer is making their injuries and pain worse. Maybe for both of

> > them, it's all in their mind, all in their body, or a combination

> > thereof. I don't think we can yet prove precisely why some of

these

> > treatments work for some people, and not for others. So I'm just

> > asking those who don't have any use for alternative medicine to be

> > more tolerant of those who find that it works for them.

> >

> > It's true that " snake oil " salesmen caused Americans to be

> > skeptical of anything but modern clinical medicine. It's

important

> to

> > study our own history and learn from it. It's also important to

> study

> > and learn from the history and culture of other parts of the

> world. We

> > may be defined by our history, but we need not be limited by it...

> > n

> > rBHR Oct.2003 McMinn