Oil Spill Operations

June 26, 2010

Austin,

The Medics and EMTs operating during the spill are under medical direction of

their agency's MD and licensed in Louisiana.

The reciprocity provided by Jindal's order is a temporary, valid license to

operate in Louisiana, under the terms of the order. NREMTs that are going out to

work are being approved in a emergency fashion in much the same way, but with no

requirement of supervision.

I'm not sure how legality applies 3 miles or more offshore. That's US Federal

Waters and all operations there are being directed by the Coast Guard, with the

vessels paid for by BP, and medics provided by the major carriers. Anyone know

previous law on that? Since there is no Federal standard for EMT, you are

operating as an extension of the medical director... if I remember right, that's

borrowed servant, right legal beagles?

-Brad

>

> > An attorney friend of mine has a technical term for

> someone practicing

> > without a license, especially medics who work

> offshore. The term is

> > " payday " .

> >

> > If you know of anyone who is practicing without a

> license I encourage you to

> > report it to the proper authorities.

>

> ------------------------------------

>

June 26, 2010

Sorry, but you've got it backwards. The NREMT position paper is wrong and has

no legal effect anyway. Licensure implies the privilege of independent practice

and a post-graduate degree. Most states define the licensed professions in

statutes. Paramedics are not allowed independent practice anywhere, and thus

are not licensed.

I realize that this is semantics, but trust me, the licensed professions do not

include Paramedics.

Gene Gandy, JD, LP, NREMT-P

Licensed as a lawyer, certified as a Paramedic

Oil Spill Operations

> > >

> > > Mr. ,

> > >

> > > I am a Nationally Certified Paramedic residing in Arizona and looking

> for

> > > short term work at various Oil Spill locations. I am employed full time

> > but

> > > my employer may provide her blessing to work for your company at

> > > predetermined times.

> > >

> > > I do have a few questions of you:

> > >

> > > 1. Workman's compensation available while serving with Arcadian?

> > >

> > > 2. What are the deployment/redeployment specifics? By flight? By

> > > privately owned vehicle? Compensation?

> > >

> > > 3. Would we be considered to be under the employment of Arcadian or

> > > FEMA?

> > >

> > > 4. Does the week long deployment include travel time or does it begin

> > > upon arrival to assignment?

> > >

> > > 5. Will there be any advanced training courses in conjunction with

> > > deployment?

> > >

> > > J. Meere

> > >

> > > CEP, Arizona Ambulance

> > >

> > > U.S. Army, Retired

> > >

> > > JMeere@...

>

> > >

June 26, 2010

Thanks Gene I thought you made this clear to me at some point in the

past in the past privately.

Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET

FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI

Typed by my fingers on my iPhone.

Please excuse any typos.

(Cell)

LNMolino@...

> Sorry, but you've got it backwards. The NREMT position paper is

> wrong and has no legal effect anyway. Licensure implies the

> privilege of independent practice and a post-graduate degree. Most

> states define the licensed professions in statutes. Paramedics are

> not allowed independent practice anywhere, and thus are not licensed.

>

> I realize that this is semantics, but trust me, the licensed

> professions do not include Paramedics.

>

> Gene Gandy, JD, LP, NREMT-P

> Licensed as a lawyer, certified as a Paramedic

>

> Oil Spill Operations

> > > >

> > > > Mr. ,

> > > >

> > > > I am a Nationally Certified Paramedic residing in Arizona and

> looking

> > for

> > > > short term work at various Oil Spill locations. I am employed

> full time

> > > but

> > > > my employer may provide her blessing to work for your company at

> > > > predetermined times.

> > > >

> > > > I do have a few questions of you:

> > > >

> > > > 1. Workman's compensation available while serving with Arcadian?

> > > >

> > > > 2. What are the deployment/redeployment specifics? By flight? By

> > > > privately owned vehicle? Compensation?

> > > >

> > > > 3. Would we be considered to be under the employment of

> Arcadian or

> > > > FEMA?

> > > >

> > > > 4. Does the week long deployment include travel time or does

> it begin

> > > > upon arrival to assignment?

> > > >

> > > > 5. Will there be any advanced training courses in conjunction

> with

> > > > deployment?

> > > >

> > > > J. Meere

> > > >

> > > > CEP, Arizona Ambulance

> > > >

> > > > U.S. Army, Retired

> > > >

> > > > JMeere@...

> >

> > > >

June 27, 2010

As I said, every state is different in how they define " licensed professionals. "

As I also said, nurses are an aberrancy in the licensing process since they are

described as licensed by the occupations code, but they do not have independent

practice. Yet they are recognized as licensed professionals in TEXAS so far as

their scope of practice is described.

Those of us who worked in the past in Texas to elevate paramedics to real

licensure by having them including in the Occupations Code were thwarted at

every attempt, generally by a coalition of city managers, county commissioners,

fire departments, and private EMS companies who were afraid of the salary

implications of granting such status.

This would not have changed the status of the paramedic to independent

practitioner, but would have made them true licensed professionals under Texas

law, because a " licensed professional " is what the statutes say it is, not what

others may describe it as.

When I talked about " my definition " of a licensed professional, I'm using the

commonly used definition that lawyers and other licensed professionals use when

defining their professions, and that is generally the legal right to engage in

independent practice without supervision. Of course, within professions, rules

of practice do apply, so that even licensed physicians cannot do certain things

within their profession in hospitals without supervision. However, a sole

practitioner in a private practice can do just about anything s/he wants to

within the law, and that has been the tradition for centuries.

Names and definitions can change, I grant you. I simply do not believe that

most lawyers would agree that anyone allowed by a governmental entity to do acts

strictly defined by regulation are " licensed professionals " no matter what you

call them.

I'm not trying to be contrary, just trying to explain how this is viewed by the

legal profession and other licensed professionals.

Gene Gandy

Oil Spill Operations

> > > >

> > > > Mr. ,

> > > >

> > > > I am a Nationally Certified Paramedic residing in Arizona and looking

> > for

> > > > short term work at various Oil Spill locations. I am employed full

> time

> > > but

> > > > my employer may provide her blessing to work for your company at

> > > > predetermined times.

> > > >

> > > > I do have a few questions of you:

> > > >

> > > > 1. Workman's compensation available while serving with Arcadian?

> > > >

> > > > 2. What are the deployment/redeployment specifics? By flight? By

> > > > privately owned vehicle? Compensation?

> > > >

> > > > 3. Would we be considered to be under the employment of Arcadian or

> > > > FEMA?

> > > >

> > > > 4. Does the week long deployment include travel time or does it begin

> > > > upon arrival to assignment?

> > > >

> > > > 5. Will there be any advanced training courses in conjunction with

> > > > deployment?

> > > >

> > > > J. Meere

> > > >

> > > > CEP, Arizona Ambulance

> > > >

> > > > U.S. Army, Retired

> > > >

> > > > JMeere@...

40cox.net>

>

> >

> > > >

June 27, 2010

Alan,

You make some very good points and bring up some thorny issues. You are correct

about the good samaritan laws.

If companies choose to view NREMT certification as a license, that's their

mistake. You are quite correct that it doesn't give anybody the authority to

practice.

I would make this comment about scope of practice. Not all states have

formalized state-wide scope of practice regulations, and there is, as you

correctly state, no federal scope of practice. In some states, such as Texas,

the physician medical director defines scope of practice. When one leaves

territorial waters, a different set of rules kicks in.

Some confuse scope of practice with standard of care. One must be careful not

to do that, since standard of care may well be a national one but a state may

limit one's ability to provide standard of care by limiting scope of practice.

This can get into thorny legal problems.

I'm not an expert on Admiralty and Maritime Law or International Law, but having

been an offshore worker, it is my understanding that outside territorial waters

the Admiralty and Maritime Laws govern. Admiralty cases are properly brought in

the federal courts. The owners of the vessel where the tort occurred, or which

caused the tort, would be liable. The site of the tort may be anywhere in the

world if there is a U.S. citizen involved. Also, in some cases, a dockside tort

may invoke Maritime Law. Also the Longshoremen's Act may be applicable. This

is a very complicated field of law, and I do not pretend to know much about it.

Gene G.

Re: FW: Oil Spill Operations

The problem is that the delegation of authority is in state statutes and the

states authority ends at the end of its territorial waters. The liability

protections that most states have in their statutes also end at that point.

The good samaritan law will not work, good sam laws are state specific,

there is no federal good samaritan law.

The problem is that companies view the National Registry as a license. It

is not a license, it does not give anyone the authority to practice. In all

other professions companies working offshore or internationally require

their employees to be licensed in a state, any state will do - this applies

to physicians, nurses, engineers etc. It is not uncommon to find licensed

professionals in all fields who are licensed by multiple states working on a

job site.

The bigger problem is what scope of practice do these non licensed -

National Registry only EMS professionals use? The scope of practice is

defined by the states, there is no federal national scope of practice. Do

not confuse the National Scope of Practice Model with a state scope of

practice.

What happens when someone does something wrong? What agency or state do you

go to if that EMS professional is not licensed in any state?

AJL

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 8:51 AM, A Austin

abaustin+yahoogroups@...abaustin%2Byahoogroups@...>

> wrote:

>

> This isn't really the point of the exercise. I'm looking for the law,

> convention, or regulation that allows medical doctors the privilege of

> delegating their practice to us in national or international waters. If you

> think about things at their most basic, a physician needs legal

> authorization to work, though I will grant that in the absence of a defined

> method for that authorization few would say they have no right to practice.

> However, delegation of practice is something that is very specific and in

> the absence of a specific legal authorization would be generally assumed not

> to exist, no? I don't really care how it works in reality, because I work

> offshore too along with tens of thousands of other guys, and oftentimes the

> reality doesn't match up with the regulation.

>

> I do agree that at some point it boils down to a doctor authorizing

> 'someone' to do 'something.' However, I'm not sure it has " nothing " to do

> with the master, either, because I don't think if there is any language

> addressing it that it has been brought into the modern era, and failing

> that, it would be customary for the master to be ultimately responsible for

> everything on his vessel.

>

> And if it just boils down to having a " doctor, " don't tell the third

> service companies. 'Medics have been getting pushed off rigs in the parts of

> the world because they can get a " qualified " TCN " doctor " for half the

> day-rate of a medic. However, if what you're saying is the final word, there

> isn't much of a reason they couldn't do it in the Gulf.

>

> Austin

>

> > i work offshore. the ship's master has nothing to do with delegation of

> medial care.

> > a physician delegates medical care to us and we have protocols/standing

> orders just like medics on land have.....

> >

> > jim davis

> >

> >> An attorney friend of mine has a technical term for someone practicing

> >

> >> without a license, especially medics who work offshore. The term is

> >

> >> " payday " .

> >

> >>

> >

> >> If you know of anyone who is practicing without a license I encourage

> you to

> >

> >> report it to the proper authorities.

> >

June 28, 2010

A perfect example of how things can be changed quickly in a disaster but

again never automatic unless someone builds such a thing into their rules. A

Governors executive order may be something that is easy depending on State

law. I know it's more complex in say PA or VA as they are Commonwealths. We

did Governor EO's at the drop of a hat in NJ from the Office of Emergency

Management.

9 out of 10 times we (Staff level folks) wrote them and the OEM boss took

it to the Governor and he signed them poof they were in effect they always

had a sunset provision of some type so we were not seen as writing rules or

legislation.

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

" Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds

discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

In a message dated 6/28/2010 7:06:13 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

lpowell@... writes:

EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. BJ 2010 -9 was signed by Louisiana Governor Bobby

Jindal on June 4th which read as follows:

NOW THEREFORE I, BOBBY JINDAL, Governor of the State of Louisiana, by

virtue of the

authority vested by the Constitution and laws of the State of Louisiana,

do hereby

order and direct as follows:

SECTION 1: Louisiana's statutes, rules, and regulations regarding the

licensure of EMTs, as

required by Revised Statutes Title 40, specifically the EMT-Basic

(EMT-,

EMT-Intermediate (EMT-I), and EMT-Paramedic EMT-P) (Paramedic)

designations, are hereby suspended for EMTs duly licensed to practice in

other

states who wish to provide their services in affected coastal and

offshore areas to

those persons engaged in the ongoing oil spill response, removal,

assessment, and

other cleanup efforts. An individual currently licensed and in good

standing as an

EMT-B, EMT-I, or EMT-P in another state may practice in such geographic

areas

of the State of Louisiana, subject to the following conditions,

qualifications, and

parameters:

A. The individual must be duly licensed and in good standing in another

state.

B. Prior to practicing in Louisiana pursuant to this Order, the

individual shall

submit to the State Health Officer (or his designee) a copy of the

individual's out-of-state license and photo identification. Such

information may be provided by contacting the Department of Public

Health, Bureau of EMS.

C. The individual must submit a reciprocity application for a temporary

timed

permit along with appropriate fees.

D. Under the medical direction of a Louisiana Licensed Physician the

individual may provide pre-hospital services only in local, parish, or

state

declared areas at medical sites specifically operated and designated to

assist with oil spill related activities.

E. The individual may work only alongside a team of other EMTs, and must

be supervised by an EMT-P licensed in Louisiana.

F. The individual must not exceed the applicable scope of practice

applicable

to his license, as provided for by applicable law of the state in which

he is

licensed.

G. The individual must cease practicing in Louisiana upon the

termination or

rescission of this Order or of the declared state of emergency cited

herein,

or any extension thereof.

SECTION 2: This Order is effective upon signature and shall be made

applicable June

4, 2010, and continue in effect until amended, modified, terminated, or

rescinded

by the Governor, or terminated by operation of law.

Hope this helps - or at leasr clearifies things...

Les

NREMT-Paramedic, HM-M, CSST, SAPA, RSO, AHA-TCF

Senior Safety Coordinator / Emergency Response Coordinator

Westlake Chemical

P.O. Box 228

36045 LA 30

Geismar, LA 70734-0228

e-Mail: _lpowell@..._ (mailto:lpowell@...)

Telephone:

Fax:

Cell: 225.439-6552

Captain / Training Officer - 7th District Fire Department -

_http://www.apfire.us/_ (http://www.apfire.us/) <_http://www.apfire.us/_

(http://www.apfire.us/) > e-Mail: _FD707@..._ (mailto:FD707@...)

_%20FD707@..._ (mailto:%20FD707@...) >

Captain / Training Officer - Geismar Fire Department -

_http://www.apfire.us/_ (http://www.apfire.us/) <_http://www.apfire.us/_

(http://www.apfire.us/) >

Industrial Fire World Advisory Board - Industrial Fire World

<_http://www.fireworld.com/_ (http://www.fireworld.com/) >

Secretary - Geismar Area Mutual Aid Association (GAMA) -

http:www.gamaid.org

Affiliate Advisory Council - Texas: National Association of Emergency

Medical Technicians <_http://www.naemt.org/_ (http://www.naemt.org/) >

Board of Directors - Emergency Medical Services Association of Texas

(EMSAT) <_http://www.texasemsat.org/_ (http://www.texasemsat.org/) >

" Next to creating a life, the finest thing a man can do is save one. " -

Abraham Lincoln

________________________________

From: _texasems-l _ (mailto:texasems-l )

[mailto:_texasems-l _ (mailto:texasems-l ) ] On

Behalf Of A Austin

Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 20:15

To: _texasems-l _ (mailto:texasems-l )

Subject: Re: FW: Oil Spill Operations

I don't know how Acadia (no 'r') is handling things, because in a

'disaster' situation, the rules change quite a bit.

Technically, to work within the State of Louisiana, you're supposed to

have a certification from the state. I know of more then a few people

who don't and are working onshore jobs related to oil cleanup, so I'm

not sure if this was officially waived or if noone gives a damn at the

moment. Reciprocity is just a ticket-punch from what I can tell if you

hold registry anyway (I could be wrong, I'm not certified in LA.)

Offshore, it doesn't matter, but most companies limit themselves to

National Registry only. The only actual standard is a USCG Certificate

of Registry, and Paramedics aren't eligible for that. Therefore, the

only thing that matters is what the contract or the company suggest,

along with " best practices. "

So, if you're interested, just apply. They were hurting for people, so I

don't expect they'll give you any trouble unless they got all the spots

filled. Also, you might want to find out what other companies are

paying, $19/hr isn't terribly competitive, IMO, especially since this is

all coming out of BP's pocket anyway.

Austin

> Let's try that again. email posted by Brad Sattler regarding the oil

spill

> operations. If someone could clarify if the request was specific to

Texas

> EMS or out of state responders as well.

>

> From: JMeere [mailto:_JMeere@..._ (mailto:JMeere@...)

]

> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 3:03 PM

> To: _texasems-l _ (mailto:texasems-l )

'

> Subject: FW: Oil Spill Operations

>

> Folks, I am looking for information regarding the email posted by

>

> From: JMeere [mailto:_JMeere@..._ (mailto:JMeere@...)

]

> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 2:59 PM

> To: _jeff.johnson@..._ (mailto:jeff.johnson@...)

'

> Subject: Oil Spill Operations

>

> Mr. ,

>

> I am a Nationally Certified Paramedic residing in Arizona and looking

for

> short term work at various Oil Spill locations. I am employed full

time but

> my employer may provide her blessing to work for your company at

> predetermined times.

>

> I do have a few questions of you:

>

> 1. Workman's compensation available while serving with Arcadian?

>

> 2. What are the deployment/redeployment specifics? By flight? By

> privately owned vehicle? Compensation?

>

> 3. Would we be considered to be under the employment of Arcadian or

> FEMA?

>

> 4. Does the week long deployment include travel time or does it begin

> upon arrival to assignment?

>

> 5. Will there be any advanced training courses in conjunction with

> deployment?

>

> J. Meere

>

> CEP, Arizona Ambulance

>

> U.S. Army, Retired

>

> _JMeere@..._ (mailto:JMeere@...)

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

***** Named to Fortune's 1000 list for 2009****

***** Ranked in Industry Week's " 1000 Largest Manufacturing Companies in

the World " 2009 list. *****

*CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message,* *including any attachments,

is for the sole use of* *the intended recipient(s) and may contain*

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If you are not *

*the intended recipient(s), please contact the* *sender by reply e-mail

and destroy all copies of*

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

June 28, 2010

EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. BJ 2010 -9 was signed by Louisiana Governor Bobby

Jindal on June 4th which read as follows:

NOW THEREFORE I, BOBBY JINDAL, Governor of the State of Louisiana, by

virtue of the

authority vested by the Constitution and laws of the State of Louisiana,

do hereby

order and direct as follows:

SECTION 1: Louisiana's statutes, rules, and regulations regarding the

licensure of EMTs, as

required by Revised Statutes Title 40, specifically the EMT-Basic

(EMT-,

EMT-Intermediate (EMT-I), and EMT-Paramedic EMT-P) (Paramedic)

designations, are hereby suspended for EMTs duly licensed to practice in

other

states who wish to provide their services in affected coastal and

offshore areas to

those persons engaged in the ongoing oil spill response, removal,

assessment, and

other cleanup efforts. An individual currently licensed and in good

standing as an

EMT-B, EMT-I, or EMT-P in another state may practice in such geographic

areas

of the State of Louisiana, subject to the following conditions,

qualifications, and

parameters:

A. The individual must be duly licensed and in good standing in another

state.

B. Prior to practicing in Louisiana pursuant to this Order, the

individual shall

submit to the State Health Officer (or his designee) a copy of the

individual's out-of-state license and photo identification. Such

information may be provided by contacting the Department of Public

Health, Bureau of EMS.

C. The individual must submit a reciprocity application for a temporary

timed

permit along with appropriate fees.

D. Under the medical direction of a Louisiana Licensed Physician the

individual may provide pre-hospital services only in local, parish, or

state

declared areas at medical sites specifically operated and designated to

assist with oil spill related activities.

E. The individual may work only alongside a team of other EMTs, and must

be supervised by an EMT-P licensed in Louisiana.

F. The individual must not exceed the applicable scope of practice

applicable

to his license, as provided for by applicable law of the state in which

he is

licensed.

G. The individual must cease practicing in Louisiana upon the

termination or

rescission of this Order or of the declared state of emergency cited

herein,

or any extension thereof.

SECTION 2: This Order is effective upon signature and shall be made

applicable June

4, 2010, and continue in effect until amended, modified, terminated, or

rescinded

by the Governor, or terminated by operation of law.

Hope this helps - or at leasr clearifies things...

Les

NREMT-Paramedic, HM-M, CSST, SAPA, RSO, AHA-TCF

Senior Safety Coordinator / Emergency Response Coordinator

Westlake Chemical

P.O. Box 228

36045 LA 30

Geismar, LA 70734-0228

e-Mail: lpowell@...

Telephone:

Fax:

Cell: 225.439-6552

Captain / Training Officer - 7th District Fire Department -

http://www.apfire.us/ http://www.apfire.us/> e-Mail: FD707@...

%20FD707@...>

Captain / Training Officer - Geismar Fire Department -

http://www.apfire.us/ http://www.apfire.us/>

Industrial Fire World Advisory Board - Industrial Fire World

http://www.fireworld.com/>

Secretary - Geismar Area Mutual Aid Association (GAMA) -

http:www.gamaid.org

Affiliate Advisory Council - Texas: National Association of Emergency

Medical Technicians http://www.naemt.org/>

Board of Directors - Emergency Medical Services Association of Texas

(EMSAT) http://www.texasemsat.org/>

" Next to creating a life, the finest thing a man can do is save one. " -

Abraham Lincoln

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of A Austin

Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 20:15

To: texasems-l