Guest guest Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 , I can't speak about the teaching but having watched my wife, a former EMT (she let it go after we had kids) who is also a nurse, I can say that her ability to connect to patients on a personal level is far superior to anything that I have seen in most EMS folks, regardless of certification level. My wife is an LVN, so her training focused heavily on direct patient care which provided her the ability to be very comfortable with people and being able to connect with them during times of crisis. I watched this on EMS calls, her nursing care patients and with neighbors who just need to " ask someone medical a question. " And while it's been a few years since I actively ran with EMS/RN on a 9-1-1 service, I do recall that they had similar abilities. In my EMS training over the past three decades, we don't spend the same amount of time perfecting that " warm and fuzzy " patient interaction and, to be frank, most of the time when we need our skills the most we don't have time to be warm and fuzzy with our patients. We tend to focus on the patients psych/social needs as it relates to this particular incident that caused them to call for help. Perhaps the nurses are trained to look a little more holistically and that allows them to exhibit more compassion rather than urgency...I don't know. Did her being an EMT prior to be a nurse enhance her nursing skills, particularly as it relates to assessment and emergency procedures? You bet it did and to this day she still receives compliments from incoming EMS crews about her ability to communicate to them what they need to hear. Did her nursing skills enhance her ability to get information from patients, particularly the medical patients, when she was running EMS? You bet. The comments on this thread about nursing and EMS being two different skill sets is totally correct. But to consider one set superior to the other is a fallacy. They are different because they have a different purpose/focus/history but they can enhance the other. Barry Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator Substance Abuse Services Unit Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division ________________________________ From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of McGee Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:13 AM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: RN to paramedic Ok, I just have to ask; besides changing bed sheets, giving sponge baths, and writing care plans, what exactly are nursing students taught about emergency patient care that is so far superior to what is taught to paramedic students? Please enlighten me. McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T From: rob.davis@... rob.davis@... > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic To: texasems-l Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... said: > You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a nurse > who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field > paramedic? No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate minimum requirements for paramedic registry. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 , I can't speak about the teaching but having watched my wife, a former EMT (she let it go after we had kids) who is also a nurse, I can say that her ability to connect to patients on a personal level is far superior to anything that I have seen in most EMS folks, regardless of certification level. My wife is an LVN, so her training focused heavily on direct patient care which provided her the ability to be very comfortable with people and being able to connect with them during times of crisis. I watched this on EMS calls, her nursing care patients and with neighbors who just need to " ask someone medical a question. " And while it's been a few years since I actively ran with EMS/RN on a 9-1-1 service, I do recall that they had similar abilities. In my EMS training over the past three decades, we don't spend the same amount of time perfecting that " warm and fuzzy " patient interaction and, to be frank, most of the time when we need our skills the most we don't have time to be warm and fuzzy with our patients. We tend to focus on the patients psych/social needs as it relates to this particular incident that caused them to call for help. Perhaps the nurses are trained to look a little more holistically and that allows them to exhibit more compassion rather than urgency...I don't know. Did her being an EMT prior to be a nurse enhance her nursing skills, particularly as it relates to assessment and emergency procedures? You bet it did and to this day she still receives compliments from incoming EMS crews about her ability to communicate to them what they need to hear. Did her nursing skills enhance her ability to get information from patients, particularly the medical patients, when she was running EMS? You bet. The comments on this thread about nursing and EMS being two different skill sets is totally correct. But to consider one set superior to the other is a fallacy. They are different because they have a different purpose/focus/history but they can enhance the other. Barry Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator Substance Abuse Services Unit Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division ________________________________ From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of McGee Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:13 AM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: RN to paramedic Ok, I just have to ask; besides changing bed sheets, giving sponge baths, and writing care plans, what exactly are nursing students taught about emergency patient care that is so far superior to what is taught to paramedic students? Please enlighten me. McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T From: rob.davis@... rob.davis@... > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic To: texasems-l Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... said: > You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a nurse > who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field > paramedic? No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate minimum requirements for paramedic registry. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Perhaps the difference is some practice PATIENT care, while others practice SIGN AND SYMPTOM care. Sharp, Barry wrote: > , I can't speak about the teaching but having watched my wife, a > former EMT (she let it go after we had kids) who is also a nurse, I can > say that her ability to connect to patients on a personal level is far > superior to anything that I have seen in most EMS folks, regardless of > certification level. My wife is an LVN, so her training focused heavily > on direct patient care which provided her the ability to be very > comfortable with people and being able to connect with them during times > of crisis. I watched this on EMS calls, her nursing care patients and > with neighbors who just need to " ask someone medical a question. " And > while it's been a few years since I actively ran with EMS/RN on a 9-1-1 > service, I do recall that they had similar abilities. > > > > In my EMS training over the past three decades, we don't spend the same > amount of time perfecting that " warm and fuzzy " patient interaction and, > to be frank, most of the time when we need our skills the most we don't > have time to be warm and fuzzy with our patients. We tend to focus on > the patients psych/social needs as it relates to this particular > incident that caused them to call for help. Perhaps the nurses are > trained to look a little more holistically and that allows them to > exhibit more compassion rather than urgency...I don't know. > > > > Did her being an EMT prior to be a nurse enhance her nursing skills, > particularly as it relates to assessment and emergency procedures? You > bet it did and to this day she still receives compliments from incoming > EMS crews about her ability to communicate to them what they need to > hear. Did her nursing skills enhance her ability to get information from > patients, particularly the medical patients, when she was running EMS? > You bet. > > > > The comments on this thread about nursing and EMS being two different > skill sets is totally correct. But to consider one set superior to the > other is a fallacy. They are different because they have a different > purpose/focus/history but they can enhance the other. > > > > Barry > > > > Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES > > Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator > > Substance Abuse Services Unit > > Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of McGee > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:13 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic > > > > > > Ok, I just have to ask; besides changing bed sheets, giving sponge > baths, and writing care plans, what exactly are nursing students taught > about emergency patient care that is so far superior to what is taught > to paramedic students? Please enlighten me. > > > McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T > > > > > > From: rob.davis@... > rob.davis@... > > > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic > To: texasems-l > Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM > > > > On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... > said: > > >> You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a >> > nurse > >> who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field >> paramedic? >> > > No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our > profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate > minimum requirements for paramedic registry. > > Rob > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Perhaps the difference is some practice PATIENT care, while others practice SIGN AND SYMPTOM care. Sharp, Barry wrote: > , I can't speak about the teaching but having watched my wife, a > former EMT (she let it go after we had kids) who is also a nurse, I can > say that her ability to connect to patients on a personal level is far > superior to anything that I have seen in most EMS folks, regardless of > certification level. My wife is an LVN, so her training focused heavily > on direct patient care which provided her the ability to be very > comfortable with people and being able to connect with them during times > of crisis. I watched this on EMS calls, her nursing care patients and > with neighbors who just need to " ask someone medical a question. " And > while it's been a few years since I actively ran with EMS/RN on a 9-1-1 > service, I do recall that they had similar abilities. > > > > In my EMS training over the past three decades, we don't spend the same > amount of time perfecting that " warm and fuzzy " patient interaction and, > to be frank, most of the time when we need our skills the most we don't > have time to be warm and fuzzy with our patients. We tend to focus on > the patients psych/social needs as it relates to this particular > incident that caused them to call for help. Perhaps the nurses are > trained to look a little more holistically and that allows them to > exhibit more compassion rather than urgency...I don't know. > > > > Did her being an EMT prior to be a nurse enhance her nursing skills, > particularly as it relates to assessment and emergency procedures? You > bet it did and to this day she still receives compliments from incoming > EMS crews about her ability to communicate to them what they need to > hear. Did her nursing skills enhance her ability to get information from > patients, particularly the medical patients, when she was running EMS? > You bet. > > > > The comments on this thread about nursing and EMS being two different > skill sets is totally correct. But to consider one set superior to the > other is a fallacy. They are different because they have a different > purpose/focus/history but they can enhance the other. > > > > Barry > > > > Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES > > Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator > > Substance Abuse Services Unit > > Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of McGee > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:13 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic > > > > > > Ok, I just have to ask; besides changing bed sheets, giving sponge > baths, and writing care plans, what exactly are nursing students taught > about emergency patient care that is so far superior to what is taught > to paramedic students? Please enlighten me. > > > McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T > > > > > > From: rob.davis@... > rob.davis@... > > > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic > To: texasems-l > Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM > > > > On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... > said: > > >> You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a >> > nurse > >> who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field >> paramedic? >> > > No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our > profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate > minimum requirements for paramedic registry. > > Rob > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Excellent point. Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator Substance Abuse Services Unit Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division ________________________________ From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 11:48 AM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: RN to paramedic Perhaps the difference is some practice PATIENT care, while others practice SIGN AND SYMPTOM care. Sharp, Barry wrote: > , I can't speak about the teaching but having watched my wife, a > former EMT (she let it go after we had kids) who is also a nurse, I can > say that her ability to connect to patients on a personal level is far > superior to anything that I have seen in most EMS folks, regardless of > certification level. My wife is an LVN, so her training focused heavily > on direct patient care which provided her the ability to be very > comfortable with people and being able to connect with them during times > of crisis. I watched this on EMS calls, her nursing care patients and > with neighbors who just need to " ask someone medical a question. " And > while it's been a few years since I actively ran with EMS/RN on a 9-1-1 > service, I do recall that they had similar abilities. > > > > In my EMS training over the past three decades, we don't spend the same > amount of time perfecting that " warm and fuzzy " patient interaction and, > to be frank, most of the time when we need our skills the most we don't > have time to be warm and fuzzy with our patients. We tend to focus on > the patients psych/social needs as it relates to this particular > incident that caused them to call for help. Perhaps the nurses are > trained to look a little more holistically and that allows them to > exhibit more compassion rather than urgency...I don't know. > > > > Did her being an EMT prior to be a nurse enhance her nursing skills, > particularly as it relates to assessment and emergency procedures? You > bet it did and to this day she still receives compliments from incoming > EMS crews about her ability to communicate to them what they need to > hear. Did her nursing skills enhance her ability to get information from > patients, particularly the medical patients, when she was running EMS? > You bet. > > > > The comments on this thread about nursing and EMS being two different > skill sets is totally correct. But to consider one set superior to the > other is a fallacy. They are different because they have a different > purpose/focus/history but they can enhance the other. > > > > Barry > > > > Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES > > Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator > > Substance Abuse Services Unit > > Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of McGee > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:13 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic > > > > > > Ok, I just have to ask; besides changing bed sheets, giving sponge > baths, and writing care plans, what exactly are nursing students taught > about emergency patient care that is so far superior to what is taught > to paramedic students? Please enlighten me. > > > McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T > > > > > > From: rob.davis@... > rob.davis@... > > > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic > To: texasems-l > Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM > > > > On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... > said: > > >> You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a >> > nurse > >> who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field >> paramedic? >> > > No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our > profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate > minimum requirements for paramedic registry. > > Rob > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Excellent point. Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator Substance Abuse Services Unit Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division ________________________________ From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 11:48 AM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: RN to paramedic Perhaps the difference is some practice PATIENT care, while others practice SIGN AND SYMPTOM care. Sharp, Barry wrote: > , I can't speak about the teaching but having watched my wife, a > former EMT (she let it go after we had kids) who is also a nurse, I can > say that her ability to connect to patients on a personal level is far > superior to anything that I have seen in most EMS folks, regardless of > certification level. My wife is an LVN, so her training focused heavily > on direct patient care which provided her the ability to be very > comfortable with people and being able to connect with them during times > of crisis. I watched this on EMS calls, her nursing care patients and > with neighbors who just need to " ask someone medical a question. " And > while it's been a few years since I actively ran with EMS/RN on a 9-1-1 > service, I do recall that they had similar abilities. > > > > In my EMS training over the past three decades, we don't spend the same > amount of time perfecting that " warm and fuzzy " patient interaction and, > to be frank, most of the time when we need our skills the most we don't > have time to be warm and fuzzy with our patients. We tend to focus on > the patients psych/social needs as it relates to this particular > incident that caused them to call for help. Perhaps the nurses are > trained to look a little more holistically and that allows them to > exhibit more compassion rather than urgency...I don't know. > > > > Did her being an EMT prior to be a nurse enhance her nursing skills, > particularly as it relates to assessment and emergency procedures? You > bet it did and to this day she still receives compliments from incoming > EMS crews about her ability to communicate to them what they need to > hear. Did her nursing skills enhance her ability to get information from > patients, particularly the medical patients, when she was running EMS? > You bet. > > > > The comments on this thread about nursing and EMS being two different > skill sets is totally correct. But to consider one set superior to the > other is a fallacy. They are different because they have a different > purpose/focus/history but they can enhance the other. > > > > Barry > > > > Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES > > Tobacco Prevention & Control Program Coordinator > > Substance Abuse Services Unit > > Mental Health and Substance Abuse Division > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On > Behalf Of McGee > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:13 AM > To: texasems-l > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic > > > > > > Ok, I just have to ask; besides changing bed sheets, giving sponge > baths, and writing care plans, what exactly are nursing students taught > about emergency patient care that is so far superior to what is taught > to paramedic students? Please enlighten me. > > > McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T > > > > > > From: rob.davis@... > rob.davis@... > > > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic > To: texasems-l > Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM > > > > On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... > said: > > >> You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a >> > nurse > >> who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field >> paramedic? >> > > No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our > profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate > minimum requirements for paramedic registry. > > Rob > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Thank you Barry, I completely agree with you. My wife is an LVN as well, never in EMS, and is wonderful in her choosen field. Her compassion and nursing skills have made her a great nurse and a respected member of her facility, but she will be the first to state that she was not trained to deal with most emergency situations that are common place daily in EMS. Although she can tend to chronic conditions and has the ability to make patients feel at ease, she would be lost in the back of an ambulance in a true emergency. I both admire and respect her and what she does, not just because she is my wife, but because of what she does. Thank God for all of us involved in healthcare, there is a place for us all.  McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T  From: rob.davis@... rob.davis@... > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic To: texasems-l Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... said: > You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a nurse > who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field > paramedic? No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate minimum requirements for paramedic registry. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 We all do different things in service (hopefully) of the patient. True, many patients must have immediate emergency care that only EMS is equipped to provide. But how many of these critical patients would survive if we never took them anywhere? Is emergency care enough? Of course not. And everyone can't do everything, that's why we have different fields within the healthcare professions. To criticize chronic care professionals for not having as high degree of emergency skills as we have doesn't make sense. Like criticizing the heart because it's not filtering blood as good as the liver! But we all need to do a better job of working with our patients, what used to be called " bedside manner " . They are people, not walking bags of signs and symptoms. When I was a paramedic student, the best compliment I got wasn't for great IV placement or any technical skill. I overheard a nurse in the ER telling another nurse " He's so KIND to his patients " . And ever since, I've tried to remember how important that is (and maybe not so common among students if she felt the need to comment on it, because I wasn't doing anything extraordinary). Sorry to ramble, but this is something of a hot button for me (and any of you who were my students have heard this lecture before!) Steve McGee wrote: > Thank you Barry, I completely agree with you. My wife is an LVN as well, never in EMS, and is wonderful in her choosen field. Her compassion and nursing skills have made her a great nurse and a respected member of her facility, but she will be the first to state that she was not trained to deal with most emergency situations that are common place daily in EMS. Although she can tend to chronic conditions and has the ability to make patients feel at ease, she would be lost in the back of an ambulance in a true emergency. I both admire and respect her and what she does, not just because she is my wife, but because of what she does. Thank God for all of us involved in healthcare, there is a place for us all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T > > > > > > From: rob.davis@... > rob.davis@... > > > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic > To: texasems-l > Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM > > On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... > said: > > >> You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a >> > nurse > >> who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field >> paramedic? >> > > No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our > profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate > minimum requirements for paramedic registry. > > Rob > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 We all do different things in service (hopefully) of the patient. True, many patients must have immediate emergency care that only EMS is equipped to provide. But how many of these critical patients would survive if we never took them anywhere? Is emergency care enough? Of course not. And everyone can't do everything, that's why we have different fields within the healthcare professions. To criticize chronic care professionals for not having as high degree of emergency skills as we have doesn't make sense. Like criticizing the heart because it's not filtering blood as good as the liver! But we all need to do a better job of working with our patients, what used to be called " bedside manner " . They are people, not walking bags of signs and symptoms. When I was a paramedic student, the best compliment I got wasn't for great IV placement or any technical skill. I overheard a nurse in the ER telling another nurse " He's so KIND to his patients " . And ever since, I've tried to remember how important that is (and maybe not so common among students if she felt the need to comment on it, because I wasn't doing anything extraordinary). Sorry to ramble, but this is something of a hot button for me (and any of you who were my students have heard this lecture before!) Steve McGee wrote: > Thank you Barry, I completely agree with you. My wife is an LVN as well, never in EMS, and is wonderful in her choosen field. Her compassion and nursing skills have made her a great nurse and a respected member of her facility, but she will be the first to state that she was not trained to deal with most emergency situations that are common place daily in EMS. Although she can tend to chronic conditions and has the ability to make patients feel at ease, she would be lost in the back of an ambulance in a true emergency. I both admire and respect her and what she does, not just because she is my wife, but because of what she does. Thank God for all of us involved in healthcare, there is a place for us all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T > > > > > > From: rob.davis@... > rob.davis@... > > > Subject: Re: RN to paramedic > To: texasems-l > Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM > > On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... > said: > > >> You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a >> > nurse > >> who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field >> paramedic? >> > > No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our > profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate > minimum requirements for paramedic registry. > > Rob > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 the flip side of that is that folks who give mediocre care at best, but have a good beside manner and great rapport with the family almost never get sued, no matter how bad they screw up and hurt the patient... ck In a message dated 7/21/2010 12:25:09 Central Daylight Time, abaustin+yahoogroups@... writes: Obviously, that isn't a topic I'd be offering to new students ( " you can be a prick if you're really, really good " ) since the ones that are likely to display that behavior already know (and you don't want to introduce that behavior to others.) However closely they may be linked, you can't say patient care and customer service aren't two different animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 the flip side of that is that folks who give mediocre care at best, but have a good beside manner and great rapport with the family almost never get sued, no matter how bad they screw up and hurt the patient... ck In a message dated 7/21/2010 12:25:09 Central Daylight Time, abaustin+yahoogroups@... writes: Obviously, that isn't a topic I'd be offering to new students ( " you can be a prick if you're really, really good " ) since the ones that are likely to display that behavior already know (and you don't want to introduce that behavior to others.) However closely they may be linked, you can't say patient care and customer service aren't two different animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 I think you're confusing patient care and customer service, though.While someone with poor customer service skills will not be delivering GREAT patient care (since patient satisfaction is one of the major metrics for great care) but it is possible that he is delivering appropriate or even above average patient care. A classic fictional example would be " House, " which is a stereotype that's held itself over multiple industries in my experience. I've often run into brilliant pricks who were excellent at their jobs. They'd be BETTER if they weren't complete ______ but they're still doing a superior job (not the best, but superior to most.) Obviously, that isn't a topic I'd be offering to new students ( " you can be a prick if you're really, really good " ) since the ones that are likely to display that behavior already know (and you don't want to introduce that behavior to others.) However closely they may be linked, you can't say patient care and customer service aren't two different animals. Austin > We all do different things in service (hopefully) of the patient. True, > many patients must have immediate emergency care that only EMS is > equipped to provide. But how many of these critical patients would > survive if we never took them anywhere? Is emergency care enough? Of > course not. And everyone can't do everything, that's why we have > different fields within the healthcare professions. To criticize > chronic care professionals for not having as high degree of emergency > skills as we have doesn't make sense. Like criticizing the heart > because it's not filtering blood as good as the liver! > > But we all need to do a better job of working with our patients, what > used to be called " bedside manner " . They are people, not walking bags > of signs and symptoms. When I was a paramedic student, the best > compliment I got wasn't for great IV placement or any technical skill. > I overheard a nurse in the ER telling another nurse " He's so KIND to his > patients " . And ever since, I've tried to remember how important that is > (and maybe not so common among students if she felt the need to comment > on it, because I wasn't doing anything extraordinary). > > Sorry to ramble, but this is something of a hot button for me (and any > of you who were my students have heard this lecture before!) > > Steve > > McGee wrote: >> Thank you Barry, I completely agree with you. My wife is an LVN as well, never in EMS, and is wonderful in her choosen field. Her compassion and nursing skills have made her a great nurse and a respected member of her facility, but she will be the first to state that she was not trained to deal with most emergency situations that are common place daily in EMS. Although she can tend to chronic conditions and has the ability to make patients feel at ease, she would be lost in the back of an ambulance in a true emergency. I both admire and respect her and what she does, not just because she is my wife, but because of what she does. Thank God for all of us involved in healthcare, there is a place for us all. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T >> >> >> >> >> >> From: rob.davis@... >> rob.davis@... >> > >> Subject: Re: RN to paramedic >> To: texasems-l >> Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM >> >> On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... >> said: >> >> >>> You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a >>> >> nurse >> >>> who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field >>> paramedic? >>> >> >> No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our >> profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate >> minimum requirements for paramedic registry. >> >> Rob >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Ah but Austin in a true life and death situation if I or my loved one is the Patient I'd prefer a skilled Provider who was a complete horses ass as far as thier bedside manner was concetened over a great giver of customer service. I know several trauma docs in the above catagory. The reverses of course can be true. I'd love to have a beer with the President but I really don't like his politics. Louis N. Molino, Sr. CET FF/NREMT/FSI/EMSI Typed by my fingers on my iPhone. Please excuse any typos. (Cell) LNMolino@... On Jul 21, 2010, at 12:24, A Austin abaustin+yahoogroups@...> wrote: > > I think you're confusing patient care and customer service, > though.While someone with poor customer service skills will not be > delivering GREAT patient care (since patient satisfaction is one of > the major metrics for great care) but it is possible that he is > delivering appropriate or even above average patient care. > > A classic fictional example would be " House, " which is a stereotype > that's held itself over multiple industries in my experience. I've > often run into brilliant pricks who were excellent at their jobs. > They'd be BETTER if they weren't complete ______ but they're still > doing a superior job (not the best, but superior to most.) > > Obviously, that isn't a topic I'd be offering to new students ( " you > can be a prick if you're really, really good " ) since the ones that > are likely to display that behavior already know (and you don't want > to introduce that behavior to others.) However closely they may be > linked, you can't say patient care and customer service aren't two > different animals. > > Austin > > > > >> We all do different things in service (hopefully) of the patient. >> True, >> many patients must have immediate emergency care that only EMS is >> equipped to provide. But how many of these critical patients would >> survive if we never took them anywhere? Is emergency care enough? >> Of >> course not. And everyone can't do everything, that's why we have >> different fields within the healthcare professions. To criticize >> chronic care professionals for not having as high degree of emergency >> skills as we have doesn't make sense. Like criticizing the heart >> because it's not filtering blood as good as the liver! >> >> But we all need to do a better job of working with our patients, what >> used to be called " bedside manner " . They are people, not walking >> bags >> of signs and symptoms. When I was a paramedic student, the best >> compliment I got wasn't for great IV placement or any technical >> skill. >> I overheard a nurse in the ER telling another nurse " He's so KIND >> to his >> patients " . And ever since, I've tried to remember how important >> that is >> (and maybe not so common among students if she felt the need to >> comment >> on it, because I wasn't doing anything extraordinary). >> >> Sorry to ramble, but this is something of a hot button for me (and >> any >> of you who were my students have heard this lecture before!) >> >> Steve >> >> McGee wrote: >>> Thank you Barry, I completely agree with you. My wife is an LVN >>> as well, never in EMS, and is wonderful in her choosen field. Her >>> compassion and nursing skills have made her a great nurse and a >>> respected member of her facility, but she will be the first to >>> state that she was not trained to deal with most emergency >>> situations that are common place daily in EMS. Although she can >>> tend to chronic conditions and has the ability to make patients >>> feel at ease, she would be lost in the back of an ambulance in a >>> true emergency. I both admire and respect her and what she does, >>> not just because she is my wife, but because of what she does. >>> Thank God for all of us involved in healthcare, there is a place >>> for us all. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: rob.davis@... >>> >>> rob.davis@... >>> > >>> Subject: Re: RN to paramedic >>> To: texasems-l >>> Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:12 PM >>> >>> On Monday, July 19, 2010 15:15, T68b@... >>> said: >>> >>> >>>> You don't think it'd be a huge disservice to the patient allowing a >>>> >>> nurse >>> >>>> who challenged and passed an exam to be allowed to then be a field >>>> paramedic? >>>> >>> >>> No, but we currently do a huge disservice to our patients and our >>> profession by allowing people who complete the pitifully inadequate >>> minimum requirements for paramedic registry. >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 ( I broke this into two messages because there were two different topics. And ugh, I'm a bastard for not trimming out my response to the last post, sorry. ) I have nothing against non-Emergency providers, but with consideration to the topic, it is very relevant. Nurses don't get the right skill set for working on an ambulance (generally speaking), so the thought that they can cross-deck right into the job is very distasteful to me (particularly with all the burdens and high barrier to entry going the other way.) Nurse != Paramedics, and the equation goes both ways. Even your experienced ED nurse is going to be largely out of their comfort zone in an ambulance, if only because nursing is much more of a " team sport " then EMS is. In nursing, if there is a " critical " patient, the help comes out of the woodwork (if you're at a good place, if not, eventually the lawyers come out instead.) In fact, as a nurse, I was often overwhelmed by the amount of " help " I was getting, because I had the " fun " patient, and was sending people away. While we do have teamwork going on in EMS, much of the time, your only other team-member is driving the bus and you're left to your own devices in the back, doing the best you can. It's also important to realize one of the metrics that new nurses are judged by: " Are they going to kill anyone? " There is even scenario-based video testing implemented by many hospitals (PBDS) to determine if a hire is a danger to patients. Yes, I know there are concerns about some new paramedics and their competency (especially after passing the " national standard " testing process, which isn't particularly rigorous) but that is a 10% problem (as in, 10% of every group is a ____.) In nursing, they EXPECT new nurses to be a danger and take precautions to protect the patients from them. And while many get the experience required to be good in their fields, the vast majority of nurses still aren't competent at basic skills such as CPR, much less ACLS. There are some who could give a cardiologist a run for his money, sure, but they're the minority. So no, just because they're not 'emergency' providers doesn't mean they are inept or worthless, it just means they have no place on an ambulance, and shouldn't be " testing " to become paramedics. If they want to become a paramedic, they need to go to school and check the boxes. If someone wants to develop a bridge program to shorten it up, great, but I don't think there is a lot of demand for that. Austin > We all do different things in service (hopefully) of the patient. True, > many patients must have immediate emergency care that only EMS is > equipped to provide. But how many of these critical patients would > survive if we never took them anywhere? Is emergency care enough? Of > course not. And everyone can't do everything, that's why we have > different fields within the healthcare professions. To criticize > chronic care professionals for not having as high degree of emergency > skills as we have doesn't make sense. Like criticizing the heart > because it's not filtering blood as good as the liver! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 ( I broke this into two messages because there were two different topics. And ugh, I'm a bastard for not trimming out my response to the last post, sorry. ) I have nothing against non-Emergency providers, but with consideration to the topic, it is very relevant. Nurses don't get the right skill set for working on an ambulance (generally speaking), so the thought that they can cross-deck right into the job is very distasteful to me (particularly with all the burdens and high barrier to entry going the other way.) Nurse != Paramedics, and the equation goes both ways. Even your experienced ED nurse is going to be largely out of their comfort zone in an ambulance, if only because nursing is much more of a " team sport " then EMS is. In nursing, if there is a " critical " patient, the help comes out of the woodwork (if you're at a good place, if not, eventually the lawyers come out instead.) In fact, as a nurse, I was often overwhelmed by the amount of " help " I was getting, because I had the " fun " patient, and was sending people away. While we do have teamwork going on in EMS, much of the time, your only other team-member is driving the bus and you're left to your own devices in the back, doing the best you can. It's also important to realize one of the metrics that new nurses are judged by: " Are they going to kill anyone? " There is even scenario-based video testing implemented by many hospitals (PBDS) to determine if a hire is a danger to patients. Yes, I know there are concerns about some new paramedics and their competency (especially after passing the " national standard " testing process, which isn't particularly rigorous) but that is a 10% problem (as in, 10% of every group is a ____.) In nursing, they EXPECT new nurses to be a danger and take precautions to protect the patients from them. And while many get the experience required to be good in their fields, the vast majority of nurses still aren't competent at basic skills such as CPR, much less ACLS. There are some who could give a cardiologist a run for his money, sure, but they're the minority. So no, just because they're not 'emergency' providers doesn't mean they are inept or worthless, it just means they have no place on an ambulance, and shouldn't be " testing " to become paramedics. If they want to become a paramedic, they need to go to school and check the boxes. If someone wants to develop a bridge program to shorten it up, great, but I don't think there is a lot of demand for that. Austin > We all do different things in service (hopefully) of the patient. True, > many patients must have immediate emergency care that only EMS is > equipped to provide. But how many of these critical patients would > survive if we never took them anywhere? Is emergency care enough? Of > course not. And everyone can't do everything, that's why we have > different fields within the healthcare professions. To criticize > chronic care professionals for not having as high degree of emergency > skills as we have doesn't make sense. Like criticizing the heart > because it's not filtering blood as good as the liver! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Ah good point Doc! Didn't one study show that even if a screw up that might likely get a Doc sued occurred and the Doc simply apologized in a heartfelt manner the suit was less likely to be filed. Maybe Grand moms were always right in playing nice? Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) In a message dated 7/21/2010 1:32:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, krin135@... writes: the flip side of that is that folks who give mediocre care at best, but have a good beside manner and great rapport with the family almost never get sued, no matter how bad they screw up and hurt the patient... ck In a message dated 7/21/2010 12:25:09 Central Daylight Time, abaustin+yahoogroups@... writes: Obviously, that isn't a topic I'd be offering to new students ( " you can be a prick if you're really, really good " ) since the ones that are likely to display that behavior already know (and you don't want to introduce that behavior to others.) However closely they may be linked, you can't say patient care and customer service aren't two different animals. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Doesn't this make the arguement not on education or how we as medics are capable of treating patients? Or is the emphisis on the education that an RN recieves vs. A medic? I.e. A medic is trained on intubation as a RN isn't, even with EMT training. In the sane aspect a medic isn't trained in 5 day care plans. However how you treat a person isn't how you are trained, it's about who you are as a person. If we as professionals continue to allow nurses to test to do our job without the training other than ab EMT how can we be taken seriously? On the same aspect why can't I take a CNA exam and then challenge the nursing exam? Clinicals are differant, however isn't it the same aspect? And if not mire on our end? Sent from my iPhone Ah good point Doc! Didn't one study show that even if a screw up that might likely get a Doc sued occurred and the Doc simply apologized in a heartfelt manner the suit was less likely to be filed. Maybe Grand moms were always right in playing nice? Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) In a message dated 7/21/2010 1:32:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, krin135@... writes: the flip side of that is that folks who give mediocre care at best, but have a good beside manner and great rapport with the family almost never get sued, no matter how bad they screw up and hurt the patient... ck In a message dated 7/21/2010 12:25:09 Central Daylight Time, abaustin+yahoogroups@... writes: Obviously, that isn't a topic I'd be offering to new students ( " you can be a prick if you're really, really good " ) since the ones that are likely to display that behavior already know (and you don't want to introduce that behavior to others.) However closely they may be linked, you can't say patient care and customer service aren't two different animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Doesn't this make the arguement not on education or how we as medics are capable of treating patients? Or is the emphisis on the education that an RN recieves vs. A medic? I.e. A medic is trained on intubation as a RN isn't, even with EMT training. In the sane aspect a medic isn't trained in 5 day care plans. However how you treat a person isn't how you are trained, it's about who you are as a person. If we as professionals continue to allow nurses to test to do our job without the training other than ab EMT how can we be taken seriously? On the same aspect why can't I take a CNA exam and then challenge the nursing exam? Clinicals are differant, however isn't it the same aspect? And if not mire on our end? Sent from my iPhone Ah good point Doc! Didn't one study show that even if a screw up that might likely get a Doc sued occurred and the Doc simply apologized in a heartfelt manner the suit was less likely to be filed. Maybe Grand moms were always right in playing nice? Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) In a message dated 7/21/2010 1:32:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, krin135@... writes: the flip side of that is that folks who give mediocre care at best, but have a good beside manner and great rapport with the family almost never get sued, no matter how bad they screw up and hurt the patient... ck In a message dated 7/21/2010 12:25:09 Central Daylight Time, abaustin+yahoogroups@... writes: Obviously, that isn't a topic I'd be offering to new students ( " you can be a prick if you're really, really good " ) since the ones that are likely to display that behavior already know (and you don't want to introduce that behavior to others.) However closely they may be linked, you can't say patient care and customer service aren't two different animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 One more thing if the education was a reasoning behind their reasoning, wouldn't it stand to reason if we did pass the test we would be as, if not more competent as they are? Sent from my iPhone Ah good point Doc! Didn't one study show that even if a screw up that might likely get a Doc sued occurred and the Doc simply apologized in a heartfelt manner the suit was less likely to be filed. Maybe Grand moms were always right in playing nice? Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) In a message dated 7/21/2010 1:32:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, krin135@... writes: the flip side of that is that folks who give mediocre care at best, but have a good beside manner and great rapport with the family almost never get sued, no matter how bad they screw up and hurt the patient... ck In a message dated 7/21/2010 12:25:09 Central Daylight Time, abaustin+yahoogroups@... writes: Obviously, that isn't a topic I'd be offering to new students ( " you can be a prick if you're really, really good " ) since the ones that are likely to display that behavior already know (and you don't want to introduce that behavior to others.) However closely they may be linked, you can't say patient care and customer service aren't two different animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 ummm...it's tough to challenge the NCLEX as a CNA....generally takes at least an AS in some subject, as well as passing a passel of ACT type exams, AND doing several days worth of hands on testing and writing care plans...At least that was the case in the 1980s when I was an Army Medic/NREMT-A trying to decide if I wanted to be a nurse or a physician...with the on line courses now, the book work portion is much easier. When the *minimum* requirement for Paramedic involves an AS, THEN you might find it possible to challenge the NCLEX. ck In a message dated 7/21/2010 22:43:16 Central Daylight Time, jeremydriver@... writes: If we as professionals continue to allow nurses to test to do our job without the training other than ab EMT how can we be taken seriously? On the same aspect why can't I take a CNA exam and then challenge the nursing exam? Clinicals are differant, however isn't it the same aspect? And if not mire on our end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 The mere fact of passing an exam does not show competence only subject knowledge. I'm sure we all know someone that is " book smart " , but is possibly not a good clinician in any field. Sent from my iPhone, McGee, EMT-P, EMT-T One more thing if the education was a reasoning behind their reasoning, wouldn't it stand to reason if we did pass the test we would be as, if not more competent as they are? Sent from my iPhone Ah good point Doc! Didn't one study show that even if a screw up that might likely get a Doc sued occurred and the Doc simply apologized in a heartfelt manner the suit was less likely to be filed. Maybe Grand moms were always right in playing nice? Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant LNMolino@... (Cell Phone) " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude " " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962) In a message dated 7/21/2010 1:32:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, krin135@... writes: the flip side of that is that folks who give mediocre care at best, but have a good beside manner and great rapport with the family almost never get sued, no matter how bad they screw up and hurt the patient... ck In a message dated 7/21/2010 12:25:09 Central Daylight Time, abaustin+yahoogroups@... writes: Obviously, that isn't a topic I'd be offering to new students ( " you can be a prick if you're really, really good " ) since the ones that are likely to display that behavior already know (and you don't want to introduce that behavior to others.) However closely they may be linked, you can't say patient care and customer service aren't two different animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 I believe that was the point of his statement. He was comparing EMTs to CNAs and wondering why he couldn't simply get his CNA then challenge to become a nurse. I don't think it's a fair comparison, personally, but I understand the sentiment. The nursing lobby will -never- allow paramedics to challenge the NCLEX, they are tremendously protectionist of their licensure. While similarly to paramedics, the licensing is broken down into various states' requirements (pesky constitution, and all that), the NCSBN does control the licensing exam for every state, and isn't going to let anyone without at least an ASN (and maybe soon a BSN) to sit for that test. NREMT is trying to do the same, but haven't been able to gain the level of control the NCSBN has, and likely never will. Austin > ummm...it's tough to challenge the NCLEX as a CNA....generally takes at > least an AS in some subject, as well as passing a passel of ACT type exams, > AND doing several days worth of hands on testing and writing care > plans...At least that was the case in the 1980s when I was an Army Medic/NREMT-A > trying to decide if I wanted to be a nurse or a physician...with the on line > courses now, the book work portion is much easier. > > When the *minimum* requirement for Paramedic involves an AS, THEN you might > find it possible to challenge the NCLEX. > > ck > > > In a message dated 7/21/2010 22:43:16 Central Daylight Time, > jeremydriver@... writes: > > If we as professionals continue to allow nurses to test to do our job > without the training other than ab EMT how can we be taken seriously? On the > same aspect why can't I take a CNA exam and then challenge the nursing exam? > Clinicals are differant, however isn't it the same aspect? And if not mire > on our end? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 and the Excelsior College route, IIRC, is the one that used to be known as the NY State Board of Regents Program...the program that I was enrolled in before I was accepted into Medical School. those interested can start here: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excelsior_College_Examinations_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excelsior_College_Examinations) those folks who have access to US military facilities can usually take the examinations on the government's nickel. ck In a message dated 7/23/2010 17:55:14 Central Daylight Time, rob.davis@... writes: Not actually true. The Excelsior College route is precisely the same process that you describe for RNs transitioning to Paramedic. In fact, medics going that route get a much better deal than RNs going to medic. Wheras RNs are, as says, not skipping out on any lecture or clinical time necessary to become a paramedic, paramedics are allowed to skip out on a HUGE portion of both lecture and clinical time necessary to complete nursing school. Hell, even EMT-Bs are allowed to do it. And trust me, it shows when those new medic-to-RNs get to their first job. This, however, does not make the transition approach easier, by any stretch of the imagination. If it were easier, we'd see a lot more RNs on this group. Instead, the vastly overwhelming majority of all medics who start that program never even complete their prerequisite courses, much less the challenge process, after spending several years and thousands of dollars trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 Wes, A couple of people have partially answered the question already. I will attempt to enlighten anyone without a complete understanding of the process. A little history first. There has always been a DSHS law regarding " certification through equivalency " which someone posted a link to already. This deals with the certification of EMS personnel based upon their certification/ licensure in another and closely related healthcare discipline. The most closely related field would be nursing. There are two very distinct and separate criteria that must be addressed, education and work experience. The education refers to not only the courses that they would have taken to become an RN but the clinical component associated with that. Their work experience also has a great deal of bearing on their requirements. So then whether they are an RN, LVN or CNA their education and work experience is carefully evaluated. These criteria can only be evaluated by a " regionally accredited post-secondary training institution. " Basically only an institution that grants college credit or is covered under the accreditation of an institution that grants college credit may evaluate a candidate for certification through equivalency. Here is how it would play out. An RN who has worked in the ED for 5 years would only need to sit through about 15-20 hrs of classroom time to address didactic knowledge that they would not have received in the RN classes i.e. EMS operations, lifting and moving, etc. They are also required to test all of the skills that an EMS student at that level would also have to test. They would also only need the 48 hrs (or whatever that institution requires) on the ambulance. RN's do many hours in every department for clinical hours including a lot more hours in OB than the average EMT and Paramedic student gets. Also, this person works in the ED as a preceptor for Paramedic students. They now only lack the clinical experience on the ambulance. They do those hours and are complete. Prior to 2002 an RN could apply to such an institution and receive a deficiency plan for the Paramedic portion only, satisfy that and go straight to testing. The significance of that year is that it is the year that all Paramedic testing in TX went to NR. One of the requirements to test NR Paramedic is that you must currently be certified as an EMT-Basic. So as of then an RN may not simply satisfy the deficiencies and " challenge " the Paramedic exam. The candidate must now complete two separate and distinct evaluations, one for the EMT (which they must then test and pass) and one for the Paramedic. It is important to understand that these RN's are not skipping out on any lecture time or skills testing that would be required of anyone seeking EMS certification. They are not skipping out on any clinical time that would also be required. The misconception is that we could take an RN from med-surg and let them challenge an exam. That is not the case. We are simply filling in the blanks that their nursing school did not cover. When they complete their deficiencies they are better qualified to take care of patients than a brand new EMT/Paramedic with no prior healthcare experience. I suspect that most people who take issue with this do so because the same or similar process is not afforded to Paramedics wishing to become an RN. I cannot say that this does not vex me as well. The fact is, nurses are taught more about patient management, pharmacology and A&P than Paramedics. I realize I am generalizing but for the majority of EMS programs it is the truth. They may not be taught how to intubate but they can do a damn fine assessment. Surely I will have upset some people and for that I apologize. I am not an RN but I work around some very good ones who transitioned from ED to flying in a pre-hospital environment much better than I could have transitioned from EMS to the ICU. Sorry for the length but I hope I answered your question. FP-C, BS Flight Paramedic PHI Air Med 12 -- In texasems-l , Wes Ogilvie wrote: > > Does anyone know much about the current state of things regarding what's involved for an RN to challenge for paramedic? > > Thanks, > Wes Ogilvie > > Sent from my iPad > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 Although I received a backchannel spanking for spurring this discussion on in the first place, I am beyond pleased at the way it has turned out. Steve, Austin, , Lou, and Doc Krin all contributed some excellent observations and thoughts on the matter, as well as addressing all the issues brought up, and nobody got nasty about it. I call that a success. There is, however, one last thing that should be clarified: On Friday, July 23, 2010 14:24, " nrcollinsemtp " nrcollins74@...> said: > I suspect that most people who take issue with this do so because the same or > similar process is not afforded to Paramedics wishing to become an RN. Not actually true. The Excelsior College route is precisely the same process that you describe for RNs transitioning to Paramedic. In fact, medics going that route get a much better deal than RNs going to medic. Wheras RNs are, as says, not skipping out on any lecture or clinical time necessary to become a paramedic, paramedics are allowed to skip out on a HUGE portion of both lecture and clinical time necessary to complete nursing school. Hell, even EMT-Bs are allowed to do it. And trust me, it shows when those new medic-to-RNs get to their first job. This, however, does not make the transition approach easier, by any stretch of the imagination. If it were easier, we'd see a lot more RNs on this group. Instead, the vastly overwhelming majority of all medics who start that program never even complete their prerequisite courses, much less the challenge process, after spending several years and thousands of dollars trying. I would like to clarify for those who do not know me personally. I was a medic first, many years before becoming a nurse. EMS is my first love. I am not on any nursing discussion lists. I went to nursing school only after I was physically disabled from working in EMS by an ambulance wreck. There seems to be some misconception here that I am just a nurse here to antagonise medics with some sense of nursing superiority, and that could not be farther from the truth. When I criticise the state of education and competency in EMS, it is because I love this profession, and would like to see it elevated to the status of a true profession someday, not because I think nursing is superior. Rob RN/EMT-P (Retired), BS, BSc, AAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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