Re: Avosoy/muscles-potassium

[Guest guest]

Just a note of caution...based on personal experience. If you're

taking an ACE inhibitor for blood pressure control, DO NOT TAKE ANY

POTASSIUM without talking to your prescribing doc. A lot of the

folks in this group (my self included) are of an age in which

hypertension is a reality.

As ever... caution. That's the reason I didn't mention potassium

earlier the cramps discussion.

Alan

> > Hi Joyce,

> >

> > In a possible vain effort to explain what I think I learnt about

> muscles

> > last weekend I will try here as it has some relevance to what is

> bothering

> > you........

> >

> > Firstly getting muscles going again has some dependance on the

> starting

> > state thereof. i.e. Your shoulder/arm muscles may be fairly fit

> and okay so

> > you can help move things about whereas the leg muscles are not

> great and

> > will react quite differently to levels of use. Apparently upper

> muscles

> > remain more generally fit than lower muscles which doesn't help

> > either.......

> >

> > When we use a muscle anywhere in the body we do so by setting off

a

> chemical

> > reaction which incidently is very calcium dependant...........

When

> we are

> > talking muscles being forced to go beyond what that particular

> muscle

> > considers 'normal' right then - and the unfit 'normal' is

different

> from

> > more mobile 'normal' so we are talking relatives here - we often

> cause minor

> > stress damage to said muscle....... That is responsible for the

> > soreness............ that is chemical based too............. and

> said

> > soreness has something to do with the calcium leaking out through

> the stress

> > damage and creating mini havoc to the other cells...........

> >

> > The soreness

> > goes when the cleanup cells have eliminated the leakage material,

> repaired

> > the damage etc.......... as I understand it potassium plays a big

> role here

> > and why bananas are often eaten by super athletes...........and

> usually the

> > repair job gives you a marginally stronger muscle, so you can use

> it to

> > that level without it getting sore again i.e. you will be able to

> walk a

> > tiny bit further without encountering soreness.

> >

> > Now in bodies such as mine where atrophy is rampant, i.e. normal

is

> pretty

> > unfit.......... the actual blood vessels etc necessary to go in

and

> do the

> > repairs etc are not necessarily working too well either.........

> i.e. they

> > have gone shrunken with lack of use........... So soreness

doesn't

> vanish

> > as easily as it does in the relatively fitter.........

> >

> > Now at the same time if one stretches or massages said muscle you

> apparently

> > can force the calcium back into where it should be, aid to move

> some now

> > dead cells out into the blood stream, get more blood moving to

site

> etc and

> > that is why stretching helps relieve the soreness...............

> but of

> > course even that happening is still going to be a little

dependant

> on how

> > many well working clean up vessels are functioning in the

> area..........

> >

> > The catch 22 of a human body is that this process seems to be how

> muscles

> > are built up.......... and that they will only build up if one

keeps

> > subjecting them to forces above what they are being maintained

> at....... and

> > to even keep them maintained we have to keep a certain level of

> pressure on

> > them with daily living, walking etc........... leave off that

> pressure and

> > muscles fairly quickly appear to decide to down tools.........

> Anyone who

> > teaches can probably think of this as kids working in a

> class..........

> > leave off the pressure and there isn't much left to call on by

way

> of

> > cooperation.........

> >

> > When I first started using mine again I had a lot of funny weak

> feelings,

> > cramps etc...... With my little bit of maybe misguided knowledge

I

> would say

> > that some of this is because the firing processes were not

> adequate, the

> > body had difficulties moving the necessary chemicals along

channels

> because

> > of lack of use - so not enough was there for the amount of use I

> wanted the

> > muscles to do, and there wasn't enough healthy clean up channels

> open and

> > operating...... It sounds like at least some of your leg/lower

> back muscles

> > were in that atrophied state post op for them to be feeling weak,

> cramping

> > etc. now.

> >

> > Getting from that sort of state to a fairly normally operating

> state takes

> > time and some degree of patience........... I now can see that

> doing it in

> > gradual fashion is far better than rushing at it as

well...........

> which I

> > was inclinded to do first off.......... For that tends to create

> too much

> > soreness, too much for the still not too well functioning clean

up

> brigade

> > to handle - so too much soreness, stiffness etc for too

> long.............. A

> > bodies instinct is to rebuild but there are a heap of variables

in

> the rate

> > as I now appreciate...........a major one being what you consider

> normal and

> > what I consider normal.......... i.e. are we talking getting sore

> after a 3

> > mile hike or sore after a half mile one etc.

> >

> > If that is any help whatever and if there are others who can

> correct that

> > please do so............. i.e. I need to pass this

> course........smile.

> >

> > Edith LBHR Dr. L Walter Syd Aust 8/02

> >

> >

> > > & Alan -- thanks for the feedback. I see, on Dr Theo's

> website,

> > that

> > > there is an Avosoy coming in August -- that also contains

> chondrioton.

> > > Isn't chondroiton the " repair " part of the formula?? Anyway,

> I've order

> > > more and cannot wait for it to get here. did you do any

> sort of

> > > stretching/exercise on your muscles or was this just not a

> problem for

> > you?

> > > I swear, I get discouraged when I try walking and end up in

such

> a muscle

> > > mess. My last project was helping a friend rebuild porch,

deck,

> and

> > steps.

> > > I didn't seize up at all. But walking? Everytime. And hints,

> spells or

> > > incantations you can suggest would be appreciated. Joyce (Dr

> Gross, LHR,

> > > 2/2/04)

> > >

> > > sungold518@e...

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Alan/Susie,

A question for you...........so what happens with the ACE inhibitor for

blood pressure control............ does potassium interfer with it working

by binding to it etc........??? I don't know much about how things like ACE

inhibitors work.......... but it is a known fact that you need potassium in

some quantity to deal with the relax process of a muscle happening..........

otherwise one would simply seize up.......... From what I gather that's how

those clever TV investigators know how long a body has been

dead.............

And thanks Susie, though given how complicated the body mechanism is I

rather fear a little knowledge could become a dangerous thing.........smile.

LBHR Dr. L Walter Syd Aust 8/02

- > Just a note of caution...based on personal experience. If you're

> taking an ACE inhibitor for blood pressure control, DO NOT TAKE ANY

> POTASSIUM without talking to your prescribing doc. A lot of the

> folks in this group (my self included) are of an age in which

> hypertension is a reality.

>

> As ever... caution. That's the reason I didn't mention potassium

> earlier the cramps discussion.

>

> Alan

>

> > Hey Edith! Just want to complement you on that outstanding

> summary!

> > WOW! You touched on all of the points that I had been thinking

> > of ...bananas/potassium, stretching, etc....Thank you! I think

> > you're going to be the valedictorian in your class! Susie in

> Memphis

[Guest guest]

Hi...below is the address of the website that should give you

eveything you need to know about ACE inhibitors and potassium.

http://www.amda.com/m3/ace_potassium.htm

They talk specifically about supplments, so I don't know if organic

sources like bananas would also be a problem. But my understanding

(given that I only know what I read of what smarter people write) is

that ACE inhibitors have what they call a " potassium sparing "

function, which means, I think, that more potassium stays in your

body longer than it should...and, I believe, this is a concern

because it might cause some organ damage.

If there's a doc in the hippy house any time soon, he/she might make

this all more clear. I have only recently learned that there's a new

generation of ACE Inhibitors (I believe they are creatively called

ACE-2 inhibitors. Again, I hope a doc will put me right, if this is

wrong... )

All the best...

Alan

> > > Hey Edith! Just want to complement you on that outstanding

> > summary!

> > > WOW! You touched on all of the points that I had been thinking

> > > of ...bananas/potassium, stretching, etc....Thank you! I think

> > > you're going to be the valedictorian in your class! Susie in

> > Memphis

[Guest guest]

Another note of caution: I you are taking any potassium sparing

medication, including NSAIDs which most of us are using at high doses,

for a long time, Have your doctor check your serum potassium level in

about 2 weeks if you start any supplemental postassium. It's best to

double check with your health care provider or pharmacist to see if

there could be an interaction with any medications or supplements that

you plan to take.

I'm a midwife/women's health nurse-practitioner and we use a new oral

contraceptive (Yasmin) that can cause a build up of potassium so we

give these same precautions to patients on Yasmin.

Marie

> > > Hi Joyce,

> > >

> > > In a possible vain effort to explain what I think I learnt about

> > muscles

> > > last weekend I will try here as it has some relevance to what is

> > bothering

> > > you........

> > >

> > > Firstly getting muscles going again has some dependance on the

> > starting

> > > state thereof. i.e. Your shoulder/arm muscles may be fairly fit

> > and okay so

> > > you can help move things about whereas the leg muscles are not

> > great and

> > > will react quite differently to levels of use. Apparently upper

> > muscles

> > > remain more generally fit than lower muscles which doesn't help

> > > either.......

> > >

> > > When we use a muscle anywhere in the body we do so by setting off

> a

> > chemical

> > > reaction which incidently is very calcium dependant...........

> When

> > we are

> > > talking muscles being forced to go beyond what that particular

> > muscle

> > > considers 'normal' right then - and the unfit 'normal' is

> different

> > from

> > > more mobile 'normal' so we are talking relatives here - we often

> > cause minor

> > > stress damage to said muscle....... That is responsible for the

> > > soreness............ that is chemical based too............. and

> > said

> > > soreness has something to do with the calcium leaking out through

> > the stress

> > > damage and creating mini havoc to the other cells...........

> > >

> > > The soreness

> > > goes when the cleanup cells have eliminated the leakage material,

> > repaired

> > > the damage etc.......... as I understand it potassium plays a big

> > role here

> > > and why bananas are often eaten by super athletes...........and

> > usually the

> > > repair job gives you a marginally stronger muscle, so you can use

> > it to

> > > that level without it getting sore again i.e. you will be able to

> > walk a

> > > tiny bit further without encountering soreness.

> > >

> > > Now in bodies such as mine where atrophy is rampant, i.e. normal

> is

> > pretty

> > > unfit.......... the actual blood vessels etc necessary to go in

> and

> > do the

> > > repairs etc are not necessarily working too well either.........

> > i.e. they

> > > have gone shrunken with lack of use........... So soreness

> doesn't

> > vanish

> > > as easily as it does in the relatively fitter.........

> > >

> > > Now at the same time if one stretches or massages said muscle you

> > apparently

> > > can force the calcium back into where it should be, aid to move

> > some now

> > > dead cells out into the blood stream, get more blood moving to

> site

> > etc and

> > > that is why stretching helps relieve the soreness...............

> > but of

> > > course even that happening is still going to be a little

> dependant

> > on how

> > > many well working clean up vessels are functioning in the

> > area..........

> > >

> > > The catch 22 of a human body is that this process seems to be how

> > muscles

> > > are built up.......... and that they will only build up if one

> keeps

> > > subjecting them to forces above what they are being maintained

> > at....... and

> > > to even keep them maintained we have to keep a certain level of

> > pressure on

> > > them with daily living, walking etc........... leave off that

> > pressure and

> > > muscles fairly quickly appear to decide to down tools.........

> > Anyone who

> > > teaches can probably think of this as kids working in a

> > class..........

> > > leave off the pressure and there isn't much left to call on by

> way

> > of

> > > cooperation.........

> > >

> > > When I first started using mine again I had a lot of funny weak

> > feelings,

> > > cramps etc...... With my little bit of maybe misguided knowledge

> I

> > would say

> > > that some of this is because the firing processes were not

> > adequate, the

> > > body had difficulties moving the necessary chemicals along

> channels

> > because

> > > of lack of use - so not enough was there for the amount of use I

> > wanted the

> > > muscles to do, and there wasn't enough healthy clean up channels

> > open and

> > > operating...... It sounds like at least some of your leg/lower

> > back muscles

> > > were in that atrophied state post op for them to be feeling weak,

> > cramping

> > > etc. now.

> > >

> > > Getting from that sort of state to a fairly normally operating

> > state takes

> > > time and some degree of patience........... I now can see that

> > doing it in

> > > gradual fashion is far better than rushing at it as

> well...........

> > which I

> > > was inclinded to do first off.......... For that tends to create

> > too much

> > > soreness, too much for the still not too well functioning clean

> up

> > brigade

> > > to handle - so too much soreness, stiffness etc for too

> > long.............. A

> > > bodies instinct is to rebuild but there are a heap of variables

> in

> > the rate

> > > as I now appreciate...........a major one being what you consider

> > normal and

> > > what I consider normal.......... i.e. are we talking getting sore

> > after a 3

> > > mile hike or sore after a half mile one etc.

> > >

> > > If that is any help whatever and if there are others who can

> > correct that

> > > please do so............. i.e. I need to pass this

> > course........smile.

> > >

> > > Edith LBHR Dr. L Walter Syd Aust 8/02

> > >

> > >

> > > > & Alan -- thanks for the feedback. I see, on Dr Theo's

> > website,

> > > that

> > > > there is an Avosoy coming in August -- that also contains

> > chondrioton.

> > > > Isn't chondroiton the " repair " part of the formula?? Anyway,

> > I've order

> > > > more and cannot wait for it to get here. did you do any

> > sort of

> > > > stretching/exercise on your muscles or was this just not a

> > problem for

> > > you?

> > > > I swear, I get discouraged when I try walking and end up in

> such

> > a muscle

> > > > mess. My last project was helping a friend rebuild porch,

> deck,

> > and

> > > steps.

> > > > I didn't seize up at all. But walking? Everytime. And hints,

> > spells or

> > > > incantations you can suggest would be appreciated. Joyce (Dr

> > Gross, LHR,

> > > > 2/2/04)

> > > >

> > > > sungold518@e...

> > > >

[Guest guest]

> Hi Alan/Susie,

>

> A question for you...........so what happens with the ACE inhibitor for

> blood pressure control............ does potassium interfer with it

working

> by binding to it etc........???

No, but one of the side effects of ACE inhibitors is increased

retention of potassium which causes blood potassium levels to rise.

Extremely high levels of potassium are just as bad for you as

extremely low potassium levels - potassium overdose can cause muscle

paralysis or even cardiac arrest. In general, people (like me) who

take ACE inhibitors shouldn't take potassium supplements without

consulting a physician.

Steve (bilat C+ 4/20/04, Amstutz)

[Guest guest]

> Hi...below is the address of the website that should give you

> eveything you need to know about ACE inhibitors and potassium.

>

> http://www.amda.com/m3/ace_potassium.htm

>

> They talk specifically about supplments, so I don't know if organic

> sources like bananas would also be a problem.

Depends on how many you eat ;-).

> If there's a doc in the hippy house any time soon, he/she might make

> this all more clear. I have only recently learned that there's a new

> generation of ACE Inhibitors (I believe they are creatively called

> ACE-2 inhibitors.

I think you mean " Angiotensin-2 Receptor Blockers " , or ARBs. ACE

inhibitors prevent your body from making the active form of

angiotensin, ARBs prevent the angiotensin from raising your blood

pressure by blocking the receptors it hooks up to.

Steve

[Guest guest]

> Hi...below is the address of the website that should give you

> eveything you need to know about ACE inhibitors and potassium.

>

> http://www.amda.com/m3/ace_potassium.htm

>

> They talk specifically about supplments, so I don't know if organic

> sources like bananas would also be a problem.

Depends on how many you eat ;-).

> If there's a doc in the hippy house any time soon, he/she might make

> this all more clear. I have only recently learned that there's a new

> generation of ACE Inhibitors (I believe they are creatively called

> ACE-2 inhibitors.

I think you mean " Angiotensin-2 Receptor Blockers " , or ARBs. ACE

inhibitors prevent your body from making the active form of

angiotensin, ARBs prevent the angiotensin from raising your blood

pressure by blocking the receptors it hooks up to.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Steve,

You're right about the new generation of Angiotensin drugs.

Alan

> > Hi...below is the address of the website that should give you

> > eveything you need to know about ACE inhibitors and potassium.

> >

> > http://www.amda.com/m3/ace_potassium.htm

> >

> > They talk specifically about supplments, so I don't know if

organic

> > sources like bananas would also be a problem.

>

> Depends on how many you eat ;-).

>

> > If there's a doc in the hippy house any time soon, he/she might

make

> > this all more clear. I have only recently learned that there's a

new

> > generation of ACE Inhibitors (I believe they are creatively

called

> > ACE-2 inhibitors.

>

> I think you mean " Angiotensin-2 Receptor Blockers " , or ARBs. ACE

> inhibitors prevent your body from making the active form of

> angiotensin, ARBs prevent the angiotensin from raising your blood

> pressure by blocking the receptors it hooks up to.

>

> Steve

[Guest guest]

> Steve,

>

> You're right about the new generation of Angiotensin drugs.

Well, a little over three years ago I had the nearly fatal

" opportunity " to learn an awful lot about hypertension.

Steve (bilat C+ 4/20/04, Amstutz)

[Guest guest]

Edith,

On the X-Files, they had it right: " The truth is out there " .

Sometimes, though, it's damned hard figure where " there " really is...

or even to guess how far out there " there " might be.

Glad the reference was of value. True, in its prime the body is in

fine chemical balance; but the prime lasts such a short time (even a

relatively shorter time, as our average life span grows); and the

range of stressor and environmental assaults that can alter the

balance is long, and growing. Supplements, ideally formulated and

used, should do only what the name suggests: They

should " supplement " , in the literal sense of the word, what our

bodies can produce.

All the best...

Alan

> Hi,

>

> Many thanks and yes well on reading the reference one wouldn't

really be

> wanting to take any potassium supplements with such a drug........

>

> This sort of highlights the interesting issue of just what is safe

to put in

> a human body at any given time.