Guest guest Posted September 3, 2010 Report Share Posted September 3, 2010 do you have a link to that legislation? I'd love to see if Ohio included immunity clauses in it. Done correctly, these clauses would result in something like an infection would result in the suit being against the city/state as long as 'gross negligence' could not be proven on the part of the medic, presuming that the medic was otherwise operating within the scope of his/her training. Similarly, charges of battery (either the crime or the tort) could not be brought against a medic acting otherwise within the scope of his/her training, unless a separate violation of the suspect's civil rights could be shown. Personally, I think that this kind of law is dumb, as there are good charts and graphs to correlate a positive alcohol level at time N with the effective level at some time earlier. And it shouldn't be too difficult to train jailers in forensic phlebotomy, so that the suspect can be subjected to a blood draw as soon as they are booked. Additionally, a properly done field sobriety test, video taped with audio recording, should be sensitive and specific enough to demonstrate impairment, even to a typical juror (ie, someone too bored or dumb to get out of the duty). It has the additional effect of catching impairment due to other drugs than alcohol, including some that are difficult to find acutely otherwise, as well as those that are legal and not tested for. ck In a message dated 09/03/10 22:18:53 Central Daylight Time, wegandy@... writes: The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. This poses some questions I would like to present. Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. Gene Gandy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2010 Report Share Posted September 3, 2010 do you have a link to that legislation? I'd love to see if Ohio included immunity clauses in it. Done correctly, these clauses would result in something like an infection would result in the suit being against the city/state as long as 'gross negligence' could not be proven on the part of the medic, presuming that the medic was otherwise operating within the scope of his/her training. Similarly, charges of battery (either the crime or the tort) could not be brought against a medic acting otherwise within the scope of his/her training, unless a separate violation of the suspect's civil rights could be shown. Personally, I think that this kind of law is dumb, as there are good charts and graphs to correlate a positive alcohol level at time N with the effective level at some time earlier. And it shouldn't be too difficult to train jailers in forensic phlebotomy, so that the suspect can be subjected to a blood draw as soon as they are booked. Additionally, a properly done field sobriety test, video taped with audio recording, should be sensitive and specific enough to demonstrate impairment, even to a typical juror (ie, someone too bored or dumb to get out of the duty). It has the additional effect of catching impairment due to other drugs than alcohol, including some that are difficult to find acutely otherwise, as well as those that are legal and not tested for. ck In a message dated 09/03/10 22:18:53 Central Daylight Time, wegandy@... writes: The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. This poses some questions I would like to present. Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. Gene Gandy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2010 Report Share Posted September 3, 2010 do you have a link to that legislation? I'd love to see if Ohio included immunity clauses in it. Done correctly, these clauses would result in something like an infection would result in the suit being against the city/state as long as 'gross negligence' could not be proven on the part of the medic, presuming that the medic was otherwise operating within the scope of his/her training. Similarly, charges of battery (either the crime or the tort) could not be brought against a medic acting otherwise within the scope of his/her training, unless a separate violation of the suspect's civil rights could be shown. Personally, I think that this kind of law is dumb, as there are good charts and graphs to correlate a positive alcohol level at time N with the effective level at some time earlier. And it shouldn't be too difficult to train jailers in forensic phlebotomy, so that the suspect can be subjected to a blood draw as soon as they are booked. Additionally, a properly done field sobriety test, video taped with audio recording, should be sensitive and specific enough to demonstrate impairment, even to a typical juror (ie, someone too bored or dumb to get out of the duty). It has the additional effect of catching impairment due to other drugs than alcohol, including some that are difficult to find acutely otherwise, as well as those that are legal and not tested for. ck In a message dated 09/03/10 22:18:53 Central Daylight Time, wegandy@... writes: The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. This poses some questions I would like to present. Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. Gene Gandy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2010 Report Share Posted September 3, 2010 I'd be interested to know if the law simply authorises the medic to do this, or if it actually compels him to do so. And what role does/can the provider's medical director play in determining whether his medics can do this or not? If " law " is authorising this practice, then does the provider even need an overseeing medical director in order to perform it? If so, this is encroaching dangerously close to the Medical Practice Act, which most state medical societies would fight vehemently. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 Based solely on opinion since I have very little knowledge in the law field, in my experience anytime we as medical providers get involved in police matters the potential for bad things to happen to us is increased to uncomfortable levels (at least for me). Our two fields, though we are on the same team, tend to be largely contrasting, we as medic focus on a small set of laws that govern our safety and liability and our concern is for the well being of a patient, whereas LE is concerned with enforcing all laws and their concern tends to be towards the greater populous and closing the case (if you will). In general having medics do what are essentially law enforcement tasks without intimate knowledge of penal code seems like a very bad idea. I'm not really even 100% comfortable stating that there is a smell of ETOH on a pt. simply for that fact that I may be asked to prove it while sitting in a court room. Nah! I think it would be much better at least for the interest of the medics to train law enforcement or er staff to draw the blood, in a more controlled environment than the back of an ambulance. So Gene, does te proposed legislation also " allow " the paramedic to opt out of drawing the blood as well? I've seen troopers ready to haul me off to jail for blocking the road, I could only imagine how mad they would be when I told them I didn't want to do a blood draw for them! -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone > The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. > > > This poses some questions I would like to present. > > > Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? > > > Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? > > > If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? > > > There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. > > > Gene Gandy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 Based solely on opinion since I have very little knowledge in the law field, in my experience anytime we as medical providers get involved in police matters the potential for bad things to happen to us is increased to uncomfortable levels (at least for me). Our two fields, though we are on the same team, tend to be largely contrasting, we as medic focus on a small set of laws that govern our safety and liability and our concern is for the well being of a patient, whereas LE is concerned with enforcing all laws and their concern tends to be towards the greater populous and closing the case (if you will). In general having medics do what are essentially law enforcement tasks without intimate knowledge of penal code seems like a very bad idea. I'm not really even 100% comfortable stating that there is a smell of ETOH on a pt. simply for that fact that I may be asked to prove it while sitting in a court room. Nah! I think it would be much better at least for the interest of the medics to train law enforcement or er staff to draw the blood, in a more controlled environment than the back of an ambulance. So Gene, does te proposed legislation also " allow " the paramedic to opt out of drawing the blood as well? I've seen troopers ready to haul me off to jail for blocking the road, I could only imagine how mad they would be when I told them I didn't want to do a blood draw for them! -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone > The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. > > > This poses some questions I would like to present. > > > Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? > > > Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? > > > If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? > > > There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. > > > Gene Gandy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 Based solely on opinion since I have very little knowledge in the law field, in my experience anytime we as medical providers get involved in police matters the potential for bad things to happen to us is increased to uncomfortable levels (at least for me). Our two fields, though we are on the same team, tend to be largely contrasting, we as medic focus on a small set of laws that govern our safety and liability and our concern is for the well being of a patient, whereas LE is concerned with enforcing all laws and their concern tends to be towards the greater populous and closing the case (if you will). In general having medics do what are essentially law enforcement tasks without intimate knowledge of penal code seems like a very bad idea. I'm not really even 100% comfortable stating that there is a smell of ETOH on a pt. simply for that fact that I may be asked to prove it while sitting in a court room. Nah! I think it would be much better at least for the interest of the medics to train law enforcement or er staff to draw the blood, in a more controlled environment than the back of an ambulance. So Gene, does te proposed legislation also " allow " the paramedic to opt out of drawing the blood as well? I've seen troopers ready to haul me off to jail for blocking the road, I could only imagine how mad they would be when I told them I didn't want to do a blood draw for them! -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone > The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. > > > This poses some questions I would like to present. > > > Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? > > > Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? > > > If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? > > > There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. > > > Gene Gandy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 I completely agree with you. I have been looking at evidence for DUI prosecutions for the last 40+ years as an attorney, sometimes a prosecutor and other times as a defense attorney, and I see many pitfalls with a statute such as this Ohio one seems to be. The urge to simplify always drives law enforcement and prosecution, but it's not always the solution. I don't have a link to the Ohio law. This came across the EMED-L list a couple of days ago, when a medical director asked for help in formulating protocols to deal with the Ohio statute. The bad part about suits against cities is that they can also be brought against the individual medics in addition to the services. Texas law says that individuals are not protected by the soverign immunity of the governmental entity. I'm not familiar with how other states address this. So the individual medics can be sued, as happened in a case involving a different set of facts that I worked on that went to the Texas Supreme Court. Whether or not battery charges could be brought depends upon several issues. One, is the medic acting within the scope of his/her practice? That question would have to be answered in view of the actual language of the statute. If the statute made DUI blood draws a part of a medic's scope of practice, then they might be protected, but what if the EMS enabling legislation did not include such blood draws in a state mandated scope of practice? A conflict in laws would result. In a Medical Director driven EMS scope of practice state like Texas, the question arises whether or not a medical director must authorize blood draws but if he/she declines to authorize them, does the statute override their power over medic practice? None of this addresses the ethical conflicts that may be present. If the blood drawee is a prisoner, can a medic legally and ethically inflict an invasive procedure upon him that has only one purpose, his prosecution or non-prosecution, without the requisite procedural due process standards being applied, which generally require the person to have an attorney present, and so forth. Is this person being " treated against his will " which can only be done after a court order, and can a court order for a blood draw be issued on probable cause without the provision of an attorney, and so forth? This is now being done in some cities in Texas, where courts are issuing " search warrants " over the phone for DWI blood draws. I won't comment on the legal validity of those orders, but I will ask the question how an EMT-I or a Paramedic in Texas is affected in terms of scope of practice, standard of care, and ethical duties to a patient to " first do no wrong. " GG Re: EMS blood draws do you have a link to that legislation? I'd love to see if Ohio included immunity clauses in it. Done correctly, these clauses would result in something like an infection would result in the suit being against the city/state as long as 'gross negligence' could not be proven on the part of the medic, presuming that the medic was otherwise operating within the scope of his/her training. Similarly, charges of battery (either the crime or the tort) could not be brought against a medic acting otherwise within the scope of his/her training, unless a separate violation of the suspect's civil rights could be shown. Personally, I think that this kind of law is dumb, as there are good charts and graphs to correlate a positive alcohol level at time N with the effective level at some time earlier. And it shouldn't be too difficult to train jailers in forensic phlebotomy, so that the suspect can be subjected to a blood draw as soon as they are booked. Additionally, a properly done field sobriety test, video taped with audio recording, should be sensitive and specific enough to demonstrate impairment, even to a typical juror (ie, someone too bored or dumb to get out of the duty). It has the additional effect of catching impairment due to other drugs than alcohol, including some that are difficult to find acutely otherwise, as well as those that are legal and not tested for. ck In a message dated 09/03/10 22:18:53 Central Daylight Time, wegandy@... writes: The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. This poses some questions I would like to present. Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. Gene Gandy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 This question was asked by a physician medical director on the EMED-L list, who wanted input for protocol development to implement the Ohio law. I don't know any more than that. GG Re: EMS blood draws I'd be interested to know if the law simply authorises the medic to do this, or if it actually compels him to do so. And what role does/can the provider's medical director play in determining whether his medics can do this or not? If " law " is authorising this practice, then does the provider even need an overseeing medical director in order to perform it? If so, this is encroaching dangerously close to the Medical Practice Act, which most state medical societies would fight vehemently. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 This question was asked by a physician medical director on the EMED-L list, who wanted input for protocol development to implement the Ohio law. I don't know any more than that. GG Re: EMS blood draws I'd be interested to know if the law simply authorises the medic to do this, or if it actually compels him to do so. And what role does/can the provider's medical director play in determining whether his medics can do this or not? If " law " is authorising this practice, then does the provider even need an overseeing medical director in order to perform it? If so, this is encroaching dangerously close to the Medical Practice Act, which most state medical societies would fight vehemently. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 This question was asked by a physician medical director on the EMED-L list, who wanted input for protocol development to implement the Ohio law. I don't know any more than that. GG Re: EMS blood draws I'd be interested to know if the law simply authorises the medic to do this, or if it actually compels him to do so. And what role does/can the provider's medical director play in determining whether his medics can do this or not? If " law " is authorising this practice, then does the provider even need an overseeing medical director in order to perform it? If so, this is encroaching dangerously close to the Medical Practice Act, which most state medical societies would fight vehemently. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 I share your fears. The question that prompted my inquiries was posted on the EMED-L list by a physician who is asking for help in formulating protocols to comply with the Ohio law. I have not read the Ohio law. I will attempt to find it. I think it is a terrible idea for legislators to try to force EMS personnel or any other medical personnel, for that matter, to participate in an invasive process designed for one purpose only from LE's point of view, to convict the person whose blood is being drawn. This brings back into focus the fundamental question that we have debated here over and over. Who are we? Are we medical folks, or are we public safety folks? If we're medical people, I see no way that we can ethically participate in these blood draws. If we're public safety people, then maybe, but that brings up myriad questions about our roles. Emotion often gets in the way of sound judgment. None of us who has been in this business for more than 6 months would seriously contend that ETOH ingestion does not contribute massively to morbidity and mortality. We all know that. But what's our rule in this? Are we to become law enforcers, or are we to remain caregivers? Laws and regulations such as this Ohio one can only lead to conflicts between law enforcement and medical personnel. As a paramedic, I will NOT take orders from a law enforcement officer to do something to my patient that is not medically indicated. That means that I cannot draw blood from him unless there's a medical reason for it, and even if I think that he's ETOH or other-drug intoxicated, my ministrations will be for my patient's wellbeing, not the cop's. I have no idea what this Ohio law provides in terms of mandatory compliance for EMS and what powers LE may have to zap them if they don't follow orders. I'll try to find the references. Gene G. Re: EMS blood draws Based solely on opinion since I have very little knowledge in the law field, in my experience anytime we as medical providers get involved in police matters the potential for bad things to happen to us is increased to uncomfortable levels (at least for me). Our two fields, though we are on the same team, tend to be largely contrasting, we as medic focus on a small set of laws that govern our safety and liability and our concern is for the well being of a patient, whereas LE is concerned with enforcing all laws and their concern tends to be towards the greater populous and closing the case (if you will). In general having medics do what are essentially law enforcement tasks without intimate knowledge of penal code seems like a very bad idea. I'm not really even 100% comfortable stating that there is a smell of ETOH on a pt. simply for that fact that I may be asked to prove it while sitting in a court room. Nah! I think it would be much better at least for the int erest of the medics to train law enforcement or er staff to draw the blood, in a more controlled environment than the back of an ambulance. So Gene, does te proposed legislation also " allow " the paramedic to opt out of drawing the blood as well? I've seen troopers ready to haul me off to jail for blocking the road, I could only imagine how mad they would be when I told them I didn't want to do a blood draw for them! -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone > The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. > > > This poses some questions I would like to present. > > > Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? > > > Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? > > > If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? > > > There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. > > > Gene Gandy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 I share your fears. The question that prompted my inquiries was posted on the EMED-L list by a physician who is asking for help in formulating protocols to comply with the Ohio law. I have not read the Ohio law. I will attempt to find it. I think it is a terrible idea for legislators to try to force EMS personnel or any other medical personnel, for that matter, to participate in an invasive process designed for one purpose only from LE's point of view, to convict the person whose blood is being drawn. This brings back into focus the fundamental question that we have debated here over and over. Who are we? Are we medical folks, or are we public safety folks? If we're medical people, I see no way that we can ethically participate in these blood draws. If we're public safety people, then maybe, but that brings up myriad questions about our roles. Emotion often gets in the way of sound judgment. None of us who has been in this business for more than 6 months would seriously contend that ETOH ingestion does not contribute massively to morbidity and mortality. We all know that. But what's our rule in this? Are we to become law enforcers, or are we to remain caregivers? Laws and regulations such as this Ohio one can only lead to conflicts between law enforcement and medical personnel. As a paramedic, I will NOT take orders from a law enforcement officer to do something to my patient that is not medically indicated. That means that I cannot draw blood from him unless there's a medical reason for it, and even if I think that he's ETOH or other-drug intoxicated, my ministrations will be for my patient's wellbeing, not the cop's. I have no idea what this Ohio law provides in terms of mandatory compliance for EMS and what powers LE may have to zap them if they don't follow orders. I'll try to find the references. Gene G. Re: EMS blood draws Based solely on opinion since I have very little knowledge in the law field, in my experience anytime we as medical providers get involved in police matters the potential for bad things to happen to us is increased to uncomfortable levels (at least for me). Our two fields, though we are on the same team, tend to be largely contrasting, we as medic focus on a small set of laws that govern our safety and liability and our concern is for the well being of a patient, whereas LE is concerned with enforcing all laws and their concern tends to be towards the greater populous and closing the case (if you will). In general having medics do what are essentially law enforcement tasks without intimate knowledge of penal code seems like a very bad idea. I'm not really even 100% comfortable stating that there is a smell of ETOH on a pt. simply for that fact that I may be asked to prove it while sitting in a court room. Nah! I think it would be much better at least for the int erest of the medics to train law enforcement or er staff to draw the blood, in a more controlled environment than the back of an ambulance. So Gene, does te proposed legislation also " allow " the paramedic to opt out of drawing the blood as well? I've seen troopers ready to haul me off to jail for blocking the road, I could only imagine how mad they would be when I told them I didn't want to do a blood draw for them! -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone > The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. > > > This poses some questions I would like to present. > > > Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? > > > Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? > > > If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? > > > There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. > > > Gene Gandy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 I share your fears. The question that prompted my inquiries was posted on the EMED-L list by a physician who is asking for help in formulating protocols to comply with the Ohio law. I have not read the Ohio law. I will attempt to find it. I think it is a terrible idea for legislators to try to force EMS personnel or any other medical personnel, for that matter, to participate in an invasive process designed for one purpose only from LE's point of view, to convict the person whose blood is being drawn. This brings back into focus the fundamental question that we have debated here over and over. Who are we? Are we medical folks, or are we public safety folks? If we're medical people, I see no way that we can ethically participate in these blood draws. If we're public safety people, then maybe, but that brings up myriad questions about our roles. Emotion often gets in the way of sound judgment. None of us who has been in this business for more than 6 months would seriously contend that ETOH ingestion does not contribute massively to morbidity and mortality. We all know that. But what's our rule in this? Are we to become law enforcers, or are we to remain caregivers? Laws and regulations such as this Ohio one can only lead to conflicts between law enforcement and medical personnel. As a paramedic, I will NOT take orders from a law enforcement officer to do something to my patient that is not medically indicated. That means that I cannot draw blood from him unless there's a medical reason for it, and even if I think that he's ETOH or other-drug intoxicated, my ministrations will be for my patient's wellbeing, not the cop's. I have no idea what this Ohio law provides in terms of mandatory compliance for EMS and what powers LE may have to zap them if they don't follow orders. I'll try to find the references. Gene G. Re: EMS blood draws Based solely on opinion since I have very little knowledge in the law field, in my experience anytime we as medical providers get involved in police matters the potential for bad things to happen to us is increased to uncomfortable levels (at least for me). Our two fields, though we are on the same team, tend to be largely contrasting, we as medic focus on a small set of laws that govern our safety and liability and our concern is for the well being of a patient, whereas LE is concerned with enforcing all laws and their concern tends to be towards the greater populous and closing the case (if you will). In general having medics do what are essentially law enforcement tasks without intimate knowledge of penal code seems like a very bad idea. I'm not really even 100% comfortable stating that there is a smell of ETOH on a pt. simply for that fact that I may be asked to prove it while sitting in a court room. Nah! I think it would be much better at least for the int erest of the medics to train law enforcement or er staff to draw the blood, in a more controlled environment than the back of an ambulance. So Gene, does te proposed legislation also " allow " the paramedic to opt out of drawing the blood as well? I've seen troopers ready to haul me off to jail for blocking the road, I could only imagine how mad they would be when I told them I didn't want to do a blood draw for them! -Chris Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was typed on the tiny keyboard on my iPhone > The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. > > > This poses some questions I would like to present. > > > Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? > > > Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? > > > If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? > > > There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. > > > Gene Gandy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 If you still have West, look in New York State for more legal information on this. As I recall there were a number of police-based EMS services in that state that were doing DWI draws as a matter of course during there interactions with drunk drivers. I believe there were a number of legal issues that were raised. In the ED, we have techs and nurses (if we can't find a tech) doing blood draws for police pretty frequently. They don't become anyone's patient, they aren't considered visits to the ED. I don't know of any blood draws that were involuntary (stupid drunk people generally agree to anything.) I've never heard of any issues arising from this practice, either moral or legal. As far as the ethical, legal questions, the fourth amendment rules, right? Other then a question of a breach of civil rights, I don't think it matters who does what or is allowed to do what. I wouldn't suggest a paramedic draw bloods on a patient expressly for the purpose of an EtOH level--that's a pretty clear violation of rights and would raise some ethical problems. However, with a court order or consent, I fail to see the problem--though in practice it would be better if another party (paramedic, nurse, jailor, whatever) were to draw on my patients. Austin > The State of Ohio has enacted legislation " enabling " EMS personnel to draw blood in DWI cases for evidence. > > > This poses some questions I would like to present. > > > Does a person being presented against his will to a medic for a blood draw become that medic's patient? > > > Is there an ethical conflict for the medic if he performs an invasive procedure that is neither intended nor inquired to be treatment for a medical condition? > > > If a medic performs a blood draw and there is a claim of injury (such as infection) resulting therefrom, has the medic been guilty of medical malpractice? > > > There are other questions one might ask, but I would specifically like to hear your thoughts about these. Also feel free to pose any additional questions that come to your mind. > > > Gene Gandy > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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