Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

[Guest guest]

I'm new to this diagnosis - my daughter was diagnosed less than a month ago (although I knew we were heading this direction in late January/early February).I'm not new to thinking about transplants, though, at least from the donor side. On one side of the family I will be the third generation of donors, when my time comes. (With anything that can be used, to be used directly for saving or improving lives, and indirectly for research or teaching to the extent my various pieces and parts are too tired to be directly useful to anyone - the same terms as both generations before me have designated - one deceased and the other still very much alive.) As to presumed consent - I understand and agree with respecting the wishes of the living family members when the wishes of the

deceased are not clear. (And that is a large part of the reasoning for not having such laws in the US)I (personally) would like some blend of presumed consent and our current system for when family members cannot be located in a timely manner (or do not exist), and for when the individual who has died has expressed a clear intent to donate his or her organs - but has family members who would want to override the decision, rather than implement it.In our family, my mother had each of her children, and her husband, sign the donation document a few years ago - the only way in many states to prevent having your wishes overridden. That is not necessarily an easy conversation to have, and if family members have strong feelings against it- but the potential donor (knowing those feelings) still feels strongly in favor of donating I don't think the family members should be able to block the donation. (I felt that way long before

my daughter became a potential recipient.) , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 12:50:37 PMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

Thanks , athan, and all! All your responses were really helpful--and well said. I'm a relative "newbie," (Dec 08 diagnosis) so these questions are still fresh for me. Thanks for your patience and candidness. Having a condition such as this does make one think!

, that bit about the presumed consent makes sense. I can see that's probably the main reason we don't have it.

[Guest guest]

Barb,

 

As and others have said your message appeared blank. But like I went to the website and was able to retreive it and I now copy it;

 

-----Original Message-----> I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when> someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my> opinion.

Am I understanding your position correctly? You're totally against atransplant for your son and won't be seeking one for him? Or only goingto transplant by living donor?My understanding (Christian or not) is once the brain is dead - the body

is also dead - except in certain circumstances where doctors can keepthe already dead organs " alive " by placing/keeping patients on lifesupport. No one is deciding when a patient dies (the patient is dead

once the brain stops functioning) the life support machines merely keepblood moving threw the dead body, keeping organs " alive " although " viable " might be a better word. No one decides when the patient dies,

the patient has already died. Almost all donors (except live donors)are dead and on life support when the patients family makes the decisionto donate. Without these donors - there would be no transplants. UNOS

has very strict rules on brain death that must be followed and theychange and update those rules all the time. Barb in Texas - Together in the Fight - Whatever it Takes!Son Ken (34) UC 91 PSC 99, LTX 6/21 & 6/30 2007 @ Baylor/Dallas

 

-- Ian Cribb  P.Eng.cell:  (6...Enefen - Reviewer/Designerwww.enefen.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb!

Even though you didn't address your email to me, I assume you responded to my email.

Yes and of course I support transplantation. The difference between you and I, is our definition of alive or dead. Where do you get your definition from? Is it your own idea or your feelings? Or perhaps it is from people from the medical field who have told you when a person is dead?

If someone is on life support, they are still living but with help otherwise, why have support on a person who is dead. That is why they call it life support, I think. It may be a lot of help or a little or all. If someone is no longer on life support and they actually die, they are indeed dead. See, the problem I have with your opinion of dead is, where does a person draw the line? How many organs have to be not working? If the brain is dead and everything else is working are they fully dead? You are absolutely entitled to your opinion as everyone else is.

I just wanted to know where you get your definition of dead from? Again, where do you draw the line? What condition, with what age? Which organs? In my opinion a person is dead when they are dead. If no line can be drawn it opens up many opinion's. A person may say a person is dead when their brain is not functioning at all, the next person says, it is when you can't walk, talk, eat, or when someone is severely retarded and can't function at all. I know some people who decide some is dead because they have nothing to offer in this life or can't enjoy life at all so they decide that person is dead by taking their life. If a person is on life support and they remove that support and the patient dies, they are dead and if they are a donor those organs are used.

Am I understanding you correctly, if a person is on life support and their brain is not working at all, you consider them dead and believe it is OK to while they are living or least other parts of them are living (whether with some help or lots of help) take whatever organ is needed?

I fully understand what you are saying and I am not against you for it, I just have different thoughts, opinion's and concerns. I think we agree but we also disagree. The reason I am asking these questions, which I hope you will answer, is because these are questions I have had. I apologize in advance if I am not understanding you correctly and I don't mean any harm. I am just thankful that people donate for those in need.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@...

www.Lori.FirstWeber.com

Click here

To: Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 5:48:01 PMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

Barb,

As and others have said your message appeared blank. But like I went to the website and was able to retreive it and I now copy it;

-----Original Message-----> I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when> someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my> opinion. Am I understanding your position correctly? You're totally against atransplant for your son and won't be seeking one for him? Or only goingto transplant by living donor?My understanding (Christian or not) is once the brain is dead - the bodyis also dead - except in certain circumstances where doctors can keepthe already dead organs "alive" by placing/keeping patients on lifesupport. No one is deciding when a patient dies (the patient is deadonce the brain stops functioning) the life support machines merely keepblood moving threw the dead body, keeping organs "alive" although"viable" might be a better word. No one decides when the patient dies,the patient has already died. Almost all

donors (except live donors)are dead and on life support when the patients family makes the decisionto donate. Without these donors - there would be no transplants. UNOShas very strict rules on brain death that must be followed and theychange and update those rules all the time. Barb in Texas - Together in the Fight - Whatever it Takes!Son Ken (34) UC 91 PSC 99, LTX 6/21 & 6/30 2007 @ Baylor/Dallas

On 4/9/09, Barb Henshaw <barbhenshaw@ peoplescom. net> wrote:

-- Ian Cribb P.Eng.cell: (6...Enefen - Reviewer/Designerwww.enefen.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb!

Even though you didn't address your email to me, I assume you responded to my email.

Yes and of course I support transplantation. The difference between you and I, is our definition of alive or dead. Where do you get your definition from? Is it your own idea or your feelings? Or perhaps it is from people from the medical field who have told you when a person is dead?

If someone is on life support, they are still living but with help otherwise, why have support on a person who is dead. That is why they call it life support, I think. It may be a lot of help or a little or all. If someone is no longer on life support and they actually die, they are indeed dead. See, the problem I have with your opinion of dead is, where does a person draw the line? How many organs have to be not working? If the brain is dead and everything else is working are they fully dead? You are absolutely entitled to your opinion as everyone else is.

I just wanted to know where you get your definition of dead from? Again, where do you draw the line? What condition, with what age? Which organs? In my opinion a person is dead when they are dead. If no line can be drawn it opens up many opinion's. A person may say a person is dead when their brain is not functioning at all, the next person says, it is when you can't walk, talk, eat, or when someone is severely retarded and can't function at all. I know some people who decide some is dead because they have nothing to offer in this life or can't enjoy life at all so they decide that person is dead by taking their life. If a person is on life support and they remove that support and the patient dies, they are dead and if they are a donor those organs are used.

Am I understanding you correctly, if a person is on life support and their brain is not working at all, you consider them dead and believe it is OK to while they are living or least other parts of them are living (whether with some help or lots of help) take whatever organ is needed?

I fully understand what you are saying and I am not against you for it, I just have different thoughts, opinion's and concerns. I think we agree but we also disagree. The reason I am asking these questions, which I hope you will answer, is because these are questions I have had. I apologize in advance if I am not understanding you correctly and I don't mean any harm. I am just thankful that people donate for those in need.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@...

www.Lori.FirstWeber.com

Click here

To: Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 5:48:01 PMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

Barb,

As and others have said your message appeared blank. But like I went to the website and was able to retreive it and I now copy it;

-----Original Message-----> I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when> someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my> opinion. Am I understanding your position correctly? You're totally against atransplant for your son and won't be seeking one for him? Or only goingto transplant by living donor?My understanding (Christian or not) is once the brain is dead - the bodyis also dead - except in certain circumstances where doctors can keepthe already dead organs "alive" by placing/keeping patients on lifesupport. No one is deciding when a patient dies (the patient is deadonce the brain stops functioning) the life support machines merely keepblood moving threw the dead body, keeping organs "alive" although"viable" might be a better word. No one decides when the patient dies,the patient has already died. Almost all

donors (except live donors)are dead and on life support when the patients family makes the decisionto donate. Without these donors - there would be no transplants. UNOShas very strict rules on brain death that must be followed and theychange and update those rules all the time. Barb in Texas - Together in the Fight - Whatever it Takes!Son Ken (34) UC 91 PSC 99, LTX 6/21 & 6/30 2007 @ Baylor/Dallas

On 4/9/09, Barb Henshaw <barbhenshaw@ peoplescom. net> wrote:

-- Ian Cribb P.Eng.cell: (6...Enefen - Reviewer/Designerwww.enefen.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb!

Even though you didn't address your email to me, I assume you responded to my email.

Yes and of course I support transplantation. The difference between you and I, is our definition of alive or dead. Where do you get your definition from? Is it your own idea or your feelings? Or perhaps it is from people from the medical field who have told you when a person is dead?

If someone is on life support, they are still living but with help otherwise, why have support on a person who is dead. That is why they call it life support, I think. It may be a lot of help or a little or all. If someone is no longer on life support and they actually die, they are indeed dead. See, the problem I have with your opinion of dead is, where does a person draw the line? How many organs have to be not working? If the brain is dead and everything else is working are they fully dead? You are absolutely entitled to your opinion as everyone else is.

I just wanted to know where you get your definition of dead from? Again, where do you draw the line? What condition, with what age? Which organs? In my opinion a person is dead when they are dead. If no line can be drawn it opens up many opinion's. A person may say a person is dead when their brain is not functioning at all, the next person says, it is when you can't walk, talk, eat, or when someone is severely retarded and can't function at all. I know some people who decide some is dead because they have nothing to offer in this life or can't enjoy life at all so they decide that person is dead by taking their life. If a person is on life support and they remove that support and the patient dies, they are dead and if they are a donor those organs are used.

Am I understanding you correctly, if a person is on life support and their brain is not working at all, you consider them dead and believe it is OK to while they are living or least other parts of them are living (whether with some help or lots of help) take whatever organ is needed?

I fully understand what you are saying and I am not against you for it, I just have different thoughts, opinion's and concerns. I think we agree but we also disagree. The reason I am asking these questions, which I hope you will answer, is because these are questions I have had. I apologize in advance if I am not understanding you correctly and I don't mean any harm. I am just thankful that people donate for those in need.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@...

www.Lori.FirstWeber.com

Click here

To: Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 5:48:01 PMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

Barb,

As and others have said your message appeared blank. But like I went to the website and was able to retreive it and I now copy it;

-----Original Message-----> I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when> someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my> opinion. Am I understanding your position correctly? You're totally against atransplant for your son and won't be seeking one for him? Or only goingto transplant by living donor?My understanding (Christian or not) is once the brain is dead - the bodyis also dead - except in certain circumstances where doctors can keepthe already dead organs "alive" by placing/keeping patients on lifesupport. No one is deciding when a patient dies (the patient is deadonce the brain stops functioning) the life support machines merely keepblood moving threw the dead body, keeping organs "alive" although"viable" might be a better word. No one decides when the patient dies,the patient has already died. Almost all

donors (except live donors)are dead and on life support when the patients family makes the decisionto donate. Without these donors - there would be no transplants. UNOShas very strict rules on brain death that must be followed and theychange and update those rules all the time. Barb in Texas - Together in the Fight - Whatever it Takes!Son Ken (34) UC 91 PSC 99, LTX 6/21 & 6/30 2007 @ Baylor/Dallas

On 4/9/09, Barb Henshaw <barbhenshaw@ peoplescom. net> wrote:

-- Ian Cribb P.Eng.cell: (6...Enefen - Reviewer/Designerwww.enefen.com

[Guest guest]

Anita Oakley wrote:

>

> I think it’s common practice to take the person off life support and

> let them die, and then harvest the organs. Isn’t it?

>

They have experimented with this some, and it is a viable option, but I

don't think it's the usual practice. They mostly reserve it for cases

where the family has a problem with taking organs while the body is

still " alive " . I think that there's greater risk of damage to the organs

doing it this way, but it can work.

athan

[Guest guest]

Anita Oakley wrote:

>

> I think it’s common practice to take the person off life support and

> let them die, and then harvest the organs. Isn’t it?

>

They have experimented with this some, and it is a viable option, but I

don't think it's the usual practice. They mostly reserve it for cases

where the family has a problem with taking organs while the body is

still " alive " . I think that there's greater risk of damage to the organs

doing it this way, but it can work.

athan

[Guest guest]

Anita Oakley wrote:

>

> I think it’s common practice to take the person off life support and

> let them die, and then harvest the organs. Isn’t it?

>

They have experimented with this some, and it is a viable option, but I

don't think it's the usual practice. They mostly reserve it for cases

where the family has a problem with taking organs while the body is

still " alive " . I think that there's greater risk of damage to the organs

doing it this way, but it can work.

athan