Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

April 9, 2009

I'm new to this diagnosis - my daughter was diagnosed less than a month ago (although I knew we were heading this direction in late January/early February).I'm not new to thinking about transplants, though, at least from the donor side. On one side of the family I will be the third generation of donors, when my time comes. (With anything that can be used, to be used directly for saving or improving lives, and indirectly for research or teaching to the extent my various pieces and parts are too tired to be directly useful to anyone - the same terms as both generations before me have designated - one deceased and the other still very much alive.) As to presumed consent - I understand and agree with respecting the wishes of the living family members when the wishes of the

deceased are not clear. (And that is a large part of the reasoning for not having such laws in the US)I (personally) would like some blend of presumed consent and our current system for when family members cannot be located in a timely manner (or do not exist), and for when the individual who has died has expressed a clear intent to donate his or her organs - but has family members who would want to override the decision, rather than implement it.In our family, my mother had each of her children, and her husband, sign the donation document a few years ago - the only way in many states to prevent having your wishes overridden. That is not necessarily an easy conversation to have, and if family members have strong feelings against it- but the potential donor (knowing those feelings) still feels strongly in favor of donating I don't think the family members should be able to block the donation. (I felt that way long before

my daughter became a potential recipient.) , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 12:50:37 PMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

Thanks , athan, and all! All your responses were really helpful--and well said. I'm a relative "newbie," (Dec 08 diagnosis) so these questions are still fresh for me. Thanks for your patience and candidness. Having a condition such as this does make one think!

, that bit about the presumed consent makes sense. I can see that's probably the main reason we don't have it.

April 9, 2009

,

My two cents.... no one MUST die for you to live. People (many people) die every day. And I know you realize we all will die one day. I believe you are looking at the cause and effect wrong. You Recieve the Gift of a liver from someone's death, you did not cause the death of another for you to live. Does that make sense? For me, It seems tragic to think that other lives couldn't be prolonged from such a process that occurs every day. Wasteful comes to mind. It almost seems as ridiculous to me as dying and being buried with a lottery ticket in your pocket while the one's you left behind are left to sell the family farm!

Just my own personal thoughts on it all!

Jeannie:)

Hi Lori,It looks like your cunnundrum is more difficult than mine: your options are more limited. Do you have a plan for when/if you need a transplant? My understanding was that the sources of the livers available are kept secret from the recipients--can't choose where it came from. I might be wrong.

For myself, I'm curious about these questions because I'm still trying to figure out why I'm troubled by it. I tend to agree with Ian that brain dead is dead, but I still don't feel entirely comfortable. I'm working on formulating exactly why. I'm reasonable enough to realize that people die, and people will continue to die regardless of my condition. However, the idea that someone MUST die for my continued survival is what gets me. Sorry I can't explain it better than that.

>> I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > Lori A. > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! " > > First Weber Group> Cell: > 1507 E. Sunset Drive> Waukesha, WI 53189

> LoriUSA@... > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com> > Click here> > > > > > > ________________________________

> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM> Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

> > > > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.

>

April 9, 2009

,

My two cents.... no one MUST die for you to live. People (many people) die every day. And I know you realize we all will die one day. I believe you are looking at the cause and effect wrong. You Recieve the Gift of a liver from someone's death, you did not cause the death of another for you to live. Does that make sense? For me, It seems tragic to think that other lives couldn't be prolonged from such a process that occurs every day. Wasteful comes to mind. It almost seems as ridiculous to me as dying and being buried with a lottery ticket in your pocket while the one's you left behind are left to sell the family farm!

Just my own personal thoughts on it all!

Jeannie:)

Hi Lori,It looks like your cunnundrum is more difficult than mine: your options are more limited. Do you have a plan for when/if you need a transplant? My understanding was that the sources of the livers available are kept secret from the recipients--can't choose where it came from. I might be wrong.

For myself, I'm curious about these questions because I'm still trying to figure out why I'm troubled by it. I tend to agree with Ian that brain dead is dead, but I still don't feel entirely comfortable. I'm working on formulating exactly why. I'm reasonable enough to realize that people die, and people will continue to die regardless of my condition. However, the idea that someone MUST die for my continued survival is what gets me. Sorry I can't explain it better than that.

>> I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > Lori A. > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! " > > First Weber Group> Cell: > 1507 E. Sunset Drive> Waukesha, WI 53189

> LoriUSA@... > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com> > Click here> > > > > > > ________________________________

> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM> Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

> > > > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.

>

April 9, 2009

,

My two cents.... no one MUST die for you to live. People (many people) die every day. And I know you realize we all will die one day. I believe you are looking at the cause and effect wrong. You Recieve the Gift of a liver from someone's death, you did not cause the death of another for you to live. Does that make sense? For me, It seems tragic to think that other lives couldn't be prolonged from such a process that occurs every day. Wasteful comes to mind. It almost seems as ridiculous to me as dying and being buried with a lottery ticket in your pocket while the one's you left behind are left to sell the family farm!

Just my own personal thoughts on it all!

Jeannie:)

Hi Lori,It looks like your cunnundrum is more difficult than mine: your options are more limited. Do you have a plan for when/if you need a transplant? My understanding was that the sources of the livers available are kept secret from the recipients--can't choose where it came from. I might be wrong.

For myself, I'm curious about these questions because I'm still trying to figure out why I'm troubled by it. I tend to agree with Ian that brain dead is dead, but I still don't feel entirely comfortable. I'm working on formulating exactly why. I'm reasonable enough to realize that people die, and people will continue to die regardless of my condition. However, the idea that someone MUST die for my continued survival is what gets me. Sorry I can't explain it better than that.

>> I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > Lori A. > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! " > > First Weber Group> Cell: > 1507 E. Sunset Drive> Waukesha, WI 53189

> LoriUSA@... > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com> > Click here> > > > > > > ________________________________

> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM> Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

> > > > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.

>

April 10, 2009

Since we are on ethical topics, I wanted to ask everyone's opinion about our

population with cognitive disabilities. They are usually denied the opportunity

to even be listed, no matter how mild there disabilities are. Does this seem

right to anyone? Just wondering, the reasons they cite have no merit. I have

seen this personally, and it is sad. I have been in this field for about 20

years now, and it just seems wrong.

Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical

question

Barb,

As and others have said your message appeared blank. But like I went

to the website and was able to retreive it and I now copy it;

-----Original Message-----

> I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when

> someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my

> opinion.

Am I understanding your position correctly? You're totally against a

transplant for your son and won't be seeking one for him? Or only going

to transplant by living donor?

My understanding (Christian or not) is once the brain is dead - the body

is also dead - except in certain circumstances where doctors can keep

the already dead organs " alive " by placing/keeping patients on life

support. No one is deciding when a patient dies (the patient is dead

once the brain stops functioning) the life support machines merely keep

blood moving threw the dead body, keeping organs " alive " although

" viable " might be a better word. No one decides when the patient dies,

the patient has already died. Almost all donors (except live donors)

are dead and on life support when the patients family makes the decision

to donate. Without these donors - there would be no transplants. UNOS

has very strict rules on brain death that must be followed and they

change and update those rules all the time.

Barb in Texas - Together in the Fight - Whatever it Takes!

Son Ken (34) UC 91 PSC 99, LTX 6/21 & 6/30 2007 @ Baylor/Dallas

--

Ian Cribb P.Eng.

cell: (6...

Enefen - Reviewer/Designer

www.enefen.com

April 10, 2009