Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

[Guest guest]

I've had a transplant (from a brain-dead donor) so I've thought through

this issue quite a bit. I think there are two things that helped me

come to terms with it.

First, people tend to think about it as " someone had to die so I could

get this transplant " . In a way that's true, but it implies a

cause-effect relationship, as in " I was sick, so that person had to

die " . There is a cause-effect relationship, but that's not it. The

actual cause is the person's (and their family's) decision to be an

organ donor. The effect is that someone else gets a transplant instead

of dying. So it's not really right to feel as though your transplant

caused a person's death.

Second, I think about what would have happened if that person hadn't

donated their organs. One of two things could have happened: They

could have been left on life support indefinitely, until their family

ran out of money to pay for it or until their body shut down of it's own

accord, or they would have been taken off life support and their body

would have died (their brain was already dead) then. So even if you

have a hard time looking at someone with a beating heart as dead, its

not like donating their organs has changed anything for them, and in the

absence of our modern medicine, they would have died already (in most

cases).

I guess the only other thing I have to add to this is that almost all

Christian denominations support organ donation. There are a few

Christians who disagree, but that's a very, very small minority. The

Bible doesn't say anything that directly applies to the situation, but

it does have an awful lot to say about helping those in need, and I

think people who agree to be organ donors are fulfilling those commands.

athan

[Guest guest]

The livers would come from someone medically dead (which includes people who are classified as either brain dead and cardiac dead), or you would know that it came from a living donor (who is expected to continue living and thriving and - generally - is required to have a close relationship with the recipient).Harvesting organs is not ethically acceptable (in any circumstance in the US that I am aware of) from someone who is alive but is expected to die soon.So - if your faith's definition of death, doesn't match with the medical definition of death, it may pose a real ethical quandary - particularly since most organs (from what I could find) do currently come from individuals who are declared dead based on brain death. Given the requirements to get on the transplant list -

refusing an organ from someone who is not dead by your faith definition (if you can find it out) might mean a significantly longer wait on the list and might mean the difference between living and dying.Since there is no presumed consent in the US (that I am aware of), you should be able to rest easy with the knowledge that either the donor chose in advance to make his or her organs available based on medical death (like I have both within the state registry and by discussions and written directives with my family), or the donor's family has accepted the medical definition of death (presumably as consistent with their own faith) and consented to the donation. , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 7:58:23 AMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

That is an interesting question. I belong to this group for my Dad who has PSC. Until now I did not think any livers would come from people alive. I thought they came from people who just died or people they expect to die very soon. I do not agree with assisted suicide. I don't want to offend anyone on this site but everyone has their own convictions. I guess, if we don't know that the liver came from someone alive I would not be intentionally sinning or going against my conscience.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@ Yahoo.com

www.Lori.FirstWeber .com

Click here

From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@ verizon.net>To: @ yahoogroups. comSent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 6:26:22 AMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

Hi Lori,It looks like your cunnundrum is more difficult than mine: your options are more limited. Do you have a plan for when/if you need a transplant? My understanding was that the sources of the livers available are kept secret from the recipients-- can't choose where it came from. I might be wrong. For myself, I'm curious about these questions because I'm still trying to figure out why I'm troubled by it. I tend to agree with Ian that brain dead is dead, but I still don't feel entirely comfortable. I'm working on formulating exactly why. I'm reasonable enough to realize that people die, and people will continue to die regardless of my condition. However, the idea that someone MUST die for my continued survival is what gets me. Sorry I can't explain it better than that. >> I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > Lori A. > > "Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"> > First Weber Group> Cell: > 1507 E. Sunset Drive> Waukesha, WI 53189> LoriUSA@ ...> www.Lori.FirstWeber .com> > Click here> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@ ...>> To:

@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM> Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question> > > > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard. >

[Guest guest]

The livers would come from someone medically dead (which includes people who are classified as either brain dead and cardiac dead), or you would know that it came from a living donor (who is expected to continue living and thriving and - generally - is required to have a close relationship with the recipient).Harvesting organs is not ethically acceptable (in any circumstance in the US that I am aware of) from someone who is alive but is expected to die soon.So - if your faith's definition of death, doesn't match with the medical definition of death, it may pose a real ethical quandary - particularly since most organs (from what I could find) do currently come from individuals who are declared dead based on brain death. Given the requirements to get on the transplant list -

refusing an organ from someone who is not dead by your faith definition (if you can find it out) might mean a significantly longer wait on the list and might mean the difference between living and dying.Since there is no presumed consent in the US (that I am aware of), you should be able to rest easy with the knowledge that either the donor chose in advance to make his or her organs available based on medical death (like I have both within the state registry and by discussions and written directives with my family), or the donor's family has accepted the medical definition of death (presumably as consistent with their own faith) and consented to the donation. , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 7:58:23 AMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

That is an interesting question. I belong to this group for my Dad who has PSC. Until now I did not think any livers would come from people alive. I thought they came from people who just died or people they expect to die very soon. I do not agree with assisted suicide. I don't want to offend anyone on this site but everyone has their own convictions. I guess, if we don't know that the liver came from someone alive I would not be intentionally sinning or going against my conscience.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@ Yahoo.com

www.Lori.FirstWeber .com

Click here

From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@ verizon.net>To: @ yahoogroups. comSent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 6:26:22 AMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

Hi Lori,It looks like your cunnundrum is more difficult than mine: your options are more limited. Do you have a plan for when/if you need a transplant? My understanding was that the sources of the livers available are kept secret from the recipients-- can't choose where it came from. I might be wrong. For myself, I'm curious about these questions because I'm still trying to figure out why I'm troubled by it. I tend to agree with Ian that brain dead is dead, but I still don't feel entirely comfortable. I'm working on formulating exactly why. I'm reasonable enough to realize that people die, and people will continue to die regardless of my condition. However, the idea that someone MUST die for my continued survival is what gets me. Sorry I can't explain it better than that. >> I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > Lori A. > > "Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"> > First Weber Group> Cell: > 1507 E. Sunset Drive> Waukesha, WI 53189> LoriUSA@ ...> www.Lori.FirstWeber .com> > Click here> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@ ...>> To:

@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM> Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question> > > > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard. >

[Guest guest]

The livers would come from someone medically dead (which includes people who are classified as either brain dead and cardiac dead), or you would know that it came from a living donor (who is expected to continue living and thriving and - generally - is required to have a close relationship with the recipient).Harvesting organs is not ethically acceptable (in any circumstance in the US that I am aware of) from someone who is alive but is expected to die soon.So - if your faith's definition of death, doesn't match with the medical definition of death, it may pose a real ethical quandary - particularly since most organs (from what I could find) do currently come from individuals who are declared dead based on brain death. Given the requirements to get on the transplant list -

refusing an organ from someone who is not dead by your faith definition (if you can find it out) might mean a significantly longer wait on the list and might mean the difference between living and dying.Since there is no presumed consent in the US (that I am aware of), you should be able to rest easy with the knowledge that either the donor chose in advance to make his or her organs available based on medical death (like I have both within the state registry and by discussions and written directives with my family), or the donor's family has accepted the medical definition of death (presumably as consistent with their own faith) and consented to the donation. , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 7:58:23 AMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

That is an interesting question. I belong to this group for my Dad who has PSC. Until now I did not think any livers would come from people alive. I thought they came from people who just died or people they expect to die very soon. I do not agree with assisted suicide. I don't want to offend anyone on this site but everyone has their own convictions. I guess, if we don't know that the liver came from someone alive I would not be intentionally sinning or going against my conscience.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@ Yahoo.com

www.Lori.FirstWeber .com

Click here

From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@ verizon.net>To: @ yahoogroups. comSent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 6:26:22 AMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

Hi Lori,It looks like your cunnundrum is more difficult than mine: your options are more limited. Do you have a plan for when/if you need a transplant? My understanding was that the sources of the livers available are kept secret from the recipients-- can't choose where it came from. I might be wrong. For myself, I'm curious about these questions because I'm still trying to figure out why I'm troubled by it. I tend to agree with Ian that brain dead is dead, but I still don't feel entirely comfortable. I'm working on formulating exactly why. I'm reasonable enough to realize that people die, and people will continue to die regardless of my condition. However, the idea that someone MUST die for my continued survival is what gets me. Sorry I can't explain it better than that. >> I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > Lori A. > > "Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"> > First Weber Group> Cell: > 1507 E. Sunset Drive> Waukesha, WI 53189> LoriUSA@ ...> www.Lori.FirstWeber .com> > Click here> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@ ...>> To:

@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM> Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question> > > > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard. >

[Guest guest]

Barb,Every once in a while when you post I can't see your message (this is the second or third time). The first time(s) I assumed you'd accidentally hit send before the message was done and would repost with the message. Since it's happened more than once (and I didn't see a follow-up "oops" note) I decided to poke around a bit.Below is what I see of your message from the current post. I went to the on-line group and it is blank there (from my perspective), unless I play with the viewing options. If I choose display source lets me see the message (and a whole bunch of other stuff), but your message still looks blank under normal viewing (which lets me see everyone else's messages).Don't know if anyone else has this problem - but I thought I'd let you

know in case you are aware of something you did differently in how you sent this message from the others that I can see.(Good explanation, by the way, once I found a way to read it!) , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 10:35:22 AMSubject: RE: Re: what does bible say about organ

donation: Ethical question

[Guest guest]

Barb,Every once in a while when you post I can't see your message (this is the second or third time). The first time(s) I assumed you'd accidentally hit send before the message was done and would repost with the message. Since it's happened more than once (and I didn't see a follow-up "oops" note) I decided to poke around a bit.Below is what I see of your message from the current post. I went to the on-line group and it is blank there (from my perspective), unless I play with the viewing options. If I choose display source lets me see the message (and a whole bunch of other stuff), but your message still looks blank under normal viewing (which lets me see everyone else's messages).Don't know if anyone else has this problem - but I thought I'd let you

know in case you are aware of something you did differently in how you sent this message from the others that I can see.(Good explanation, by the way, once I found a way to read it!) , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 10:35:22 AMSubject: RE: Re: what does bible say about organ

donation: Ethical question

[Guest guest]

Hi

I'm far from being religious so for whatever it's worth, I'll give my 2 cents

worth on this issue. Years ago, I signed my organ donor card with the knowledge

that should I die in an untimely manner, and if someone else could benefit from

my demise, then I feel I would've done the right thing. I never felt at all that

I had to die to benefit someone else in signing that card; instead, my death

would facilitate their survival should the need arise. And besides, once I died,

what good would my organs be to me anyway--or so that was my reason for signing

at the time.

Now that the shoe is one the other foot, so to speak, my first reaction after

being diagnosed with PSC, surprisingly, was an extreme reluctance to consider

having a transplant. Fortunately, my health is still considered to be very good

so hopefully I won't need to cross that bridge all that soon. Partly, I think

that fear was based on all of the possible " things that could go wrong " rather

than anything else.

Now that I've had a few years of getting used to living with PSC, I see a

transplant as one of hopefully a number of possible alternative solutions.

[Personally, I'm hoping that if/when I need a new liver, the technology will be

better so that they can grow one from my own cells.] But I realize that unless I

have a living donor, with all its inherent dangers, that someone MUST die for me

to get a transplant. However, I guess what gets me through the day is that I

would not have had a hand in causing their death. And if someone so graciously

gave me an opportunity to live that much longer, I would consider that to be the

single most kindest gift of all.

[Guest guest]

Hi

I'm far from being religious so for whatever it's worth, I'll give my 2 cents

worth on this issue. Years ago, I signed my organ donor card with the knowledge

that should I die in an untimely manner, and if someone else could benefit from

my demise, then I feel I would've done the right thing. I never felt at all that

I had to die to benefit someone else in signing that card; instead, my death

would facilitate their survival should the need arise. And besides, once I died,

what good would my organs be to me anyway--or so that was my reason for signing

at the time.

Now that the shoe is one the other foot, so to speak, my first reaction after

being diagnosed with PSC, surprisingly, was an extreme reluctance to consider

having a transplant. Fortunately, my health is still considered to be very good

so hopefully I won't need to cross that bridge all that soon. Partly, I think

that fear was based on all of the possible " things that could go wrong " rather

than anything else.

Now that I've had a few years of getting used to living with PSC, I see a

transplant as one of hopefully a number of possible alternative solutions.

[Personally, I'm hoping that if/when I need a new liver, the technology will be

better so that they can grow one from my own cells.] But I realize that unless I

have a living donor, with all its inherent dangers, that someone MUST die for me

to get a transplant. However, I guess what gets me through the day is that I

would not have had a hand in causing their death. And if someone so graciously

gave me an opportunity to live that much longer, I would consider that to be the

single most kindest gift of all.

[Guest guest]

Hi

I'm far from being religious so for whatever it's worth, I'll give my 2 cents

worth on this issue. Years ago, I signed my organ donor card with the knowledge

that should I die in an untimely manner, and if someone else could benefit from

my demise, then I feel I would've done the right thing. I never felt at all that

I had to die to benefit someone else in signing that card; instead, my death

would facilitate their survival should the need arise. And besides, once I died,

what good would my organs be to me anyway--or so that was my reason for signing

at the time.

Now that the shoe is one the other foot, so to speak, my first reaction after

being diagnosed with PSC, surprisingly, was an extreme reluctance to consider

having a transplant. Fortunately, my health is still considered to be very good

so hopefully I won't need to cross that bridge all that soon. Partly, I think

that fear was based on all of the possible " things that could go wrong " rather

than anything else.

Now that I've had a few years of getting used to living with PSC, I see a

transplant as one of hopefully a number of possible alternative solutions.

[Personally, I'm hoping that if/when I need a new liver, the technology will be

better so that they can grow one from my own cells.] But I realize that unless I

have a living donor, with all its inherent dangers, that someone MUST die for me

to get a transplant. However, I guess what gets me through the day is that I

would not have had a hand in causing their death. And if someone so graciously

gave me an opportunity to live that much longer, I would consider that to be the

single most kindest gift of all.

[Guest guest]

Thanks , athan, and all! All your responses were really

helpful--and well said. I'm a relative " newbie, " (Dec 08 diagnosis) so these

questions are still fresh for me. Thanks for your patience and candidness.

Having a condition such as this does make one think!

, that bit about the presumed consent makes sense. I can see that's

probably the main reason we don't have it.

>

> Hi

>

> I'm far from being religious so for whatever it's worth, I'll give my 2 cents

worth on this issue. Years ago, I signed my organ donor card with the knowledge

that should I die in an untimely manner, and if someone else could benefit from

my demise, then I feel I would've done the right thing. I never felt at all that

I had to die to benefit someone else in signing that card; instead, my death

would facilitate their survival should the need arise. And besides, once I died,

what good would my organs be to me anyway--or so that was my reason for signing

at the time.

>

> Now that the shoe is one the other foot, so to speak, my first reaction after

being diagnosed with PSC, surprisingly, was an extreme reluctance to consider

having a transplant. Fortunately, my health is still considered to be very good

so hopefully I won't need to cross that bridge all that soon. Partly, I think

that fear was based on all of the possible " things that could go wrong " rather

than anything else.

>

> Now that I've had a few years of getting used to living with PSC, I see a

transplant as one of hopefully a number of possible alternative solutions.

[Personally, I'm hoping that if/when I need a new liver, the technology will be

better so that they can grow one from my own cells.] But I realize that unless I

have a living donor, with all its inherent dangers, that someone MUST die for me

to get a transplant. However, I guess what gets me through the day is that I

would not have had a hand in causing their death. And if someone so graciously

gave me an opportunity to live that much longer, I would consider that to be the

single most kindest gift of all.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks , athan, and all! All your responses were really

helpful--and well said. I'm a relative " newbie, " (Dec 08 diagnosis) so these

questions are still fresh for me. Thanks for your patience and candidness.

Having a condition such as this does make one think!

, that bit about the presumed consent makes sense. I can see that's

probably the main reason we don't have it.

>

> Hi

>

> I'm far from being religious so for whatever it's worth, I'll give my 2 cents

worth on this issue. Years ago, I signed my organ donor card with the knowledge

that should I die in an untimely manner, and if someone else could benefit from

my demise, then I feel I would've done the right thing. I never felt at all that

I had to die to benefit someone else in signing that card; instead, my death

would facilitate their survival should the need arise. And besides, once I died,

what good would my organs be to me anyway--or so that was my reason for signing

at the time.

>

> Now that the shoe is one the other foot, so to speak, my first reaction after

being diagnosed with PSC, surprisingly, was an extreme reluctance to consider

having a transplant. Fortunately, my health is still considered to be very good

so hopefully I won't need to cross that bridge all that soon. Partly, I think

that fear was based on all of the possible " things that could go wrong " rather

than anything else.

>

> Now that I've had a few years of getting used to living with PSC, I see a

transplant as one of hopefully a number of possible alternative solutions.

[Personally, I'm hoping that if/when I need a new liver, the technology will be

better so that they can grow one from my own cells.] But I realize that unless I

have a living donor, with all its inherent dangers, that someone MUST die for me

to get a transplant. However, I guess what gets me through the day is that I

would not have had a hand in causing their death. And if someone so graciously

gave me an opportunity to live that much longer, I would consider that to be the

single most kindest gift of all.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks , athan, and all! All your responses were really

helpful--and well said. I'm a relative " newbie, " (Dec 08 diagnosis) so these

questions are still fresh for me. Thanks for your patience and candidness.

Having a condition such as this does make one think!

, that bit about the presumed consent makes sense. I can see that's

probably the main reason we don't have it.

>

> Hi

>

> I'm far from being religious so for whatever it's worth, I'll give my 2 cents

worth on this issue. Years ago, I signed my organ donor card with the knowledge

that should I die in an untimely manner, and if someone else could benefit from

my demise, then I feel I would've done the right thing. I never felt at all that

I had to die to benefit someone else in signing that card; instead, my death

would facilitate their survival should the need arise. And besides, once I died,

what good would my organs be to me anyway--or so that was my reason for signing

at the time.

>

> Now that the shoe is one the other foot, so to speak, my first reaction after

being diagnosed with PSC, surprisingly, was an extreme reluctance to consider

having a transplant. Fortunately, my health is still considered to be very good

so hopefully I won't need to cross that bridge all that soon. Partly, I think

that fear was based on all of the possible " things that could go wrong " rather

than anything else.

>

> Now that I've had a few years of getting used to living with PSC, I see a

transplant as one of hopefully a number of possible alternative solutions.

[Personally, I'm hoping that if/when I need a new liver, the technology will be

better so that they can grow one from my own cells.] But I realize that unless I

have a living donor, with all its inherent dangers, that someone MUST die for me

to get a transplant. However, I guess what gets me through the day is that I

would not have had a hand in causing their death. And if someone so graciously

gave me an opportunity to live that much longer, I would consider that to be the

single most kindest gift of all.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don’t know if that’s strictly true. There’s a man at my church

who had a heart transplant, and his whole donor family came for a visit. It was

a healing thing for all. I think maybe if both the recipient and donor’s family

want the information some transplant centers will share that info.

Nita

===============

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of scotty73ohio

My understanding was that the sources of the livers available are kept secret

from the recipients--can't choose where it came from. I might be wrong.

[Guest guest]

I don’t know if that’s strictly true. There’s a man at my church

who had a heart transplant, and his whole donor family came for a visit. It was

a healing thing for all. I think maybe if both the recipient and donor’s family

want the information some transplant centers will share that info.

Nita

===============

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf

Of scotty73ohio

My understanding was that the sources of the livers available are kept secret

from the recipients--can't choose where it came from. I might be wrong.

[Guest guest]

Well, I'm starting to work out what my " problem " with transplantation is. And I

promise this will be the last I say on it, and sorry if it seems a little

confusing--I'm confused myself by my own reaction to this seemingly simple

situation. I get the whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to

die anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is still a part

of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on someone else's demise.

(Hence, one of us " must " die--not that I caused it, but that there is no other

way. If nobody else dies, then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that

no one is injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be as

strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of another human

being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ donor and always have been. I'm

starting to think it's more the idea of how the world works: it " feels " wrong to

thrive off of suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it

might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering of Christ in

exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it have been better to have not

been necessary to begin with? And if one believes it, there isn't much of a

choice. (Although that's a theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get

into here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you want.)

Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just need to toughen up. I

will certainly accept a liver when the time comes. Sad but grateful.

Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the ambiguities and such.

It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey areas. In the future maybe we can

throw some ideas back and forth via email. This has been helpful, for me at

least.

Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however, about the " not

knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility, especially if the not knowing is

sort of " chosen. "

in Ohio, PSC

> > >

> > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we

> > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they

> > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the

> > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > >

> > > Lori A.

> > >

> > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! "

> > >

> > > First Weber Group

> > > Cell:

> > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > Waukesha, WI 53189

> > > LoriUSA@

> > > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

> > >

> > > Click here

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: scotty73ohio

> > > To:

> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

> > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation:

> > Ethical question

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain

> > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole

> > situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I'm starting to work out what my " problem " with transplantation is. And I

promise this will be the last I say on it, and sorry if it seems a little

confusing--I'm confused myself by my own reaction to this seemingly simple

situation. I get the whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to

die anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is still a part

of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on someone else's demise.

(Hence, one of us " must " die--not that I caused it, but that there is no other

way. If nobody else dies, then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that

no one is injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be as

strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of another human

being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ donor and always have been. I'm

starting to think it's more the idea of how the world works: it " feels " wrong to

thrive off of suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it

might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering of Christ in

exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it have been better to have not

been necessary to begin with? And if one believes it, there isn't much of a

choice. (Although that's a theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get

into here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you want.)

Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just need to toughen up. I

will certainly accept a liver when the time comes. Sad but grateful.

Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the ambiguities and such.

It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey areas. In the future maybe we can

throw some ideas back and forth via email. This has been helpful, for me at

least.

Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however, about the " not

knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility, especially if the not knowing is

sort of " chosen. "

in Ohio, PSC

> > >

> > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we

> > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they

> > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the

> > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > >

> > > Lori A.

> > >

> > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! "

> > >

> > > First Weber Group

> > > Cell:

> > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > Waukesha, WI 53189

> > > LoriUSA@

> > > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

> > >

> > > Click here

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: scotty73ohio

> > > To:

> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

> > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation:

> > Ethical question

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain

> > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole

> > situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

 

I understand where you are coming from.  I believe the reason why I don't have a problem with organ donation is that I thought long and hard about it before I was diagnosed with PSC.  It was surreal when i got my diagnosis in Jan09 because I am now on the opposite side of " this debate " .  Years ago when I decided to become an organ donor  I had to explain my wishes to family and I have always understood and respected their own ideas about it.  However, my thoughts on it remain the same now that I have PSC ...it is a gift that (right now in the U.S. at least), is FREELY GIVEN.  You aren't TAKING SOMETHING away from someone.  I think this is where the fear for people comes from.  It is such a LOSS when a loved one dies that I believe almost all organ donors (and their families) choose to give such a great gift to another knowing that from one loss comes life for another.  How extremely selfless and loving, don't you think?    May I suggest researching more on this topic by finding organ donor families and recepients and listen to their stories.  I believe both the givers and the recievers feel blessed.  It might help you come to a better decision about your feelings on all of it.

 

In understanding,

Jeannie:)

 

P.s.  I just now thought of this since we are on the topic of organ donation... can PSCer's still be organ donors?  I guess we have other " parts " so to speak that are healthy enough for donation?  Do i need to change my status as an organ donor to let them know I have this disease?  Do any of you carry special cards or something letting emergency personnel know you have PSC?

Well, I'm starting to work out what my " problem " with transplantation is. And I promise this will be the last I say on it, and sorry if it seems a little confusing--I'm confused myself by my own reaction to this seemingly simple situation. I get the whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to die anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is still a part of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on someone else's demise. (Hence, one of us " must " die--not that I caused it, but that there is no other way. If nobody else dies, then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that no one is injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be as strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of another human being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ donor and always have been. I'm starting to think it's more the idea of how the world works: it " feels " wrong to thrive off of suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it have been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if one believes it, there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get into here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just need to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time comes. Sad but grateful.

Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the ambiguities and such. It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey areas. In the future maybe we can throw some ideas back and forth via email. This has been helpful, for me at least.

Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however, about the " not knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility, especially if the not knowing is sort of " chosen. " in Ohio, PSC

> > >> > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we> > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they

> > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the> > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > >> > > Lori A. > > >

> > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! " > > >> > > First Weber Group> > > Cell: > > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > Waukesha, WI 53189> > > LoriUSA@> > > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com <http://www.lori.firstweber.com/> > > >> > > Click here> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ________________________________

> > > From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@>> > > To: <%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM> > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation:> > Ethical question> > >> > >

> > >> > >> > >> > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain> > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole> > situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.> > > > >> >

> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

 

I understand where you are coming from.  I believe the reason why I don't have a problem with organ donation is that I thought long and hard about it before I was diagnosed with PSC.  It was surreal when i got my diagnosis in Jan09 because I am now on the opposite side of " this debate " .  Years ago when I decided to become an organ donor  I had to explain my wishes to family and I have always understood and respected their own ideas about it.  However, my thoughts on it remain the same now that I have PSC ...it is a gift that (right now in the U.S. at least), is FREELY GIVEN.  You aren't TAKING SOMETHING away from someone.  I think this is where the fear for people comes from.  It is such a LOSS when a loved one dies that I believe almost all organ donors (and their families) choose to give such a great gift to another knowing that from one loss comes life for another.  How extremely selfless and loving, don't you think?    May I suggest researching more on this topic by finding organ donor families and recepients and listen to their stories.  I believe both the givers and the recievers feel blessed.  It might help you come to a better decision about your feelings on all of it.

 

In understanding,

Jeannie:)

 

P.s.  I just now thought of this since we are on the topic of organ donation... can PSCer's still be organ donors?  I guess we have other " parts " so to speak that are healthy enough for donation?  Do i need to change my status as an organ donor to let them know I have this disease?  Do any of you carry special cards or something letting emergency personnel know you have PSC?

Well, I'm starting to work out what my " problem " with transplantation is. And I promise this will be the last I say on it, and sorry if it seems a little confusing--I'm confused myself by my own reaction to this seemingly simple situation. I get the whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to die anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is still a part of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on someone else's demise. (Hence, one of us " must " die--not that I caused it, but that there is no other way. If nobody else dies, then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that no one is injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be as strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of another human being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ donor and always have been. I'm starting to think it's more the idea of how the world works: it " feels " wrong to thrive off of suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it have been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if one believes it, there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get into here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just need to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time comes. Sad but grateful.

Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the ambiguities and such. It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey areas. In the future maybe we can throw some ideas back and forth via email. This has been helpful, for me at least.

Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however, about the " not knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility, especially if the not knowing is sort of " chosen. " in Ohio, PSC

> > >> > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we> > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they

> > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the> > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > >> > > Lori A. > > >

> > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! " > > >> > > First Weber Group> > > Cell: > > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > Waukesha, WI 53189> > > LoriUSA@> > > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com <http://www.lori.firstweber.com/> > > >> > > Click here> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ________________________________

> > > From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@>> > > To: <%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM> > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation:> > Ethical question> > >> > >

> > >> > >> > >> > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain> > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole> > situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.> > > > >> >

> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

 

I understand where you are coming from.  I believe the reason why I don't have a problem with organ donation is that I thought long and hard about it before I was diagnosed with PSC.  It was surreal when i got my diagnosis in Jan09 because I am now on the opposite side of " this debate " .  Years ago when I decided to become an organ donor  I had to explain my wishes to family and I have always understood and respected their own ideas about it.  However, my thoughts on it remain the same now that I have PSC ...it is a gift that (right now in the U.S. at least), is FREELY GIVEN.  You aren't TAKING SOMETHING away from someone.  I think this is where the fear for people comes from.  It is such a LOSS when a loved one dies that I believe almost all organ donors (and their families) choose to give such a great gift to another knowing that from one loss comes life for another.  How extremely selfless and loving, don't you think?    May I suggest researching more on this topic by finding organ donor families and recepients and listen to their stories.  I believe both the givers and the recievers feel blessed.  It might help you come to a better decision about your feelings on all of it.

 

In understanding,

Jeannie:)

 

P.s.  I just now thought of this since we are on the topic of organ donation... can PSCer's still be organ donors?  I guess we have other " parts " so to speak that are healthy enough for donation?  Do i need to change my status as an organ donor to let them know I have this disease?  Do any of you carry special cards or something letting emergency personnel know you have PSC?

Well, I'm starting to work out what my " problem " with transplantation is. And I promise this will be the last I say on it, and sorry if it seems a little confusing--I'm confused myself by my own reaction to this seemingly simple situation. I get the whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to die anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is still a part of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on someone else's demise. (Hence, one of us " must " die--not that I caused it, but that there is no other way. If nobody else dies, then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that no one is injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be as strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of another human being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ donor and always have been. I'm starting to think it's more the idea of how the world works: it " feels " wrong to thrive off of suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it have been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if one believes it, there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get into here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just need to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time comes. Sad but grateful.

Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the ambiguities and such. It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey areas. In the future maybe we can throw some ideas back and forth via email. This has been helpful, for me at least.

Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however, about the " not knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility, especially if the not knowing is sort of " chosen. " in Ohio, PSC

> > >> > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we> > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they

> > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the> > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > >> > > Lori A. > > >

> > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! " > > >> > > First Weber Group> > > Cell: > > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > Waukesha, WI 53189> > > LoriUSA@> > > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com <http://www.lori.firstweber.com/> > > >> > > Click here> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ________________________________

> > > From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@>> > > To: <%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM> > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation:> > Ethical question> > >> > >

> > >> > >> > >> > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain> > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole> > situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.> > > > >> >

> >>

[Guest guest]

DAVID MULLEN wrote:

> P.s. I just now thought of this since we are on the topic of organ

> donation... can PSCer's still be organ donors? I guess we have other

> " parts " so to speak that are healthy enough for donation? Do i need

> to change my status as an organ donor to let them know I have this

> disease? Do any of you carry special cards or something letting

> emergency personnel know you have PSC?

No, they'll investigate your health and the suitability of your organs

if and when you do become a donor. It's really impossible for us to

tell what they will and won't be able to use, but they can figure it

out. Sometimes people can even donate if they've had diseases that

would normally preclude them from donating (for instance someone with

HIV might be able to donate to another HIV positive person.) I've

talked to a number of people about organ donation, and heard the

response " I'm sure they wouldn't want anything I've got! " In reality I

bet that most everyone is potentially able to donate something!

athan

> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:41 AM, scotty73ohio

> scottandlizg@... scottandlizg@...>> wrote:

>

>

>

> Well, I'm starting to work out what my " problem " with

> transplantation is. And I promise this will be the last I say on

> it, and sorry if it seems a little confusing--I'm confused myself

> by my own reaction to this seemingly simple situation. I get the

> whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to die

> anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is

> still a part of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on

> someone else's demise. (Hence, one of us " must " die--not that I

> caused it, but that there is no other way. If nobody else dies,

> then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that no one is

> injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be

> as strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of

> another human being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ

> donor and always have been. I'm starting to think it's more the

> idea of how the world works: it " feels " wrong to thrive off of

> suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it

> might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering

> of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it

> have been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if

> one believes it, there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a

> theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get into

> here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you

> want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just

> need to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time

> comes. Sad but grateful.

>

> Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the

> ambiguities and such. It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey

> areas. In the future maybe we can throw some ideas back and forth

> via email. This has been helpful, for me at least.

>

> Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however,

> about the " not knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility,

> especially if the not knowing is sort of " chosen. "

>

> in Ohio, PSC

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous

> ground if we

> > > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead

> or not they

> > > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of

> anywhere in the

> > > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > > >

> > > > Lori A.

> > > >

> > > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! "

> > > >

> > > > First Weber Group

> > > > Cell:

> > > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > > Waukesha, WI 53189

> > > > LoriUSA@

> > > > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

> http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

>

> > > >

> > > > Click here

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________

> > > > From: scotty73ohio

> > > > To:

>

> http://40yahoogroups.com/>>

>

> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

> > > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ

> donation:

> > > Ethical question

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians

> accept brain

> > > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with

> the whole

> > > situation: some other family must lose something for me to

> live. It's hard.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.51/2052 - Release Date: 04/10/09

06:39:00

>

>

[Guest guest]

DAVID MULLEN wrote:

> P.s. I just now thought of this since we are on the topic of organ

> donation... can PSCer's still be organ donors? I guess we have other

> " parts " so to speak that are healthy enough for donation? Do i need

> to change my status as an organ donor to let them know I have this

> disease? Do any of you carry special cards or something letting

> emergency personnel know you have PSC?

No, they'll investigate your health and the suitability of your organs

if and when you do become a donor. It's really impossible for us to

tell what they will and won't be able to use, but they can figure it

out. Sometimes people can even donate if they've had diseases that

would normally preclude them from donating (for instance someone with

HIV might be able to donate to another HIV positive person.) I've

talked to a number of people about organ donation, and heard the

response " I'm sure they wouldn't want anything I've got! " In reality I

bet that most everyone is potentially able to donate something!

athan

> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:41 AM, scotty73ohio

> scottandlizg@... scottandlizg@...>> wrote:

>

>

>

> Well, I'm starting to work out what my " problem " with

> transplantation is. And I promise this will be the last I say on

> it, and sorry if it seems a little confusing--I'm confused myself

> by my own reaction to this seemingly simple situation. I get the

> whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to die

> anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is

> still a part of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on

> someone else's demise. (Hence, one of us " must " die--not that I

> caused it, but that there is no other way. If nobody else dies,

> then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that no one is

> injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be

> as strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of

> another human being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ

> donor and always have been. I'm starting to think it's more the

> idea of how the world works: it " feels " wrong to thrive off of

> suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it

> might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering

> of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it

> have been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if

> one believes it, there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a

> theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get into

> here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you

> want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just

> need to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time

> comes. Sad but grateful.

>

> Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the

> ambiguities and such. It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey

> areas. In the future maybe we can throw some ideas back and forth

> via email. This has been helpful, for me at least.

>

> Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however,

> about the " not knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility,

> especially if the not knowing is sort of " chosen. "

>

> in Ohio, PSC

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous

> ground if we

> > > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead

> or not they

> > > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of

> anywhere in the

> > > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > > >

> > > > Lori A.

> > > >

> > > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! "

> > > >

> > > > First Weber Group

> > > > Cell:

> > > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > > Waukesha, WI 53189

> > > > LoriUSA@

> > > > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

> http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

>

> > > >

> > > > Click here

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________

> > > > From: scotty73ohio

> > > > To:

>

> http://40yahoogroups.com/>>

>

> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

> > > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ

> donation:

> > > Ethical question

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians

> accept brain

> > > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with

> the whole

> > > situation: some other family must lose something for me to

> live. It's hard.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.51/2052 - Release Date: 04/10/09

06:39:00

>

>

[Guest guest]

DAVID MULLEN wrote:

> P.s. I just now thought of this since we are on the topic of organ

> donation... can PSCer's still be organ donors? I guess we have other

> " parts " so to speak that are healthy enough for donation? Do i need

> to change my status as an organ donor to let them know I have this

> disease? Do any of you carry special cards or something letting

> emergency personnel know you have PSC?

No, they'll investigate your health and the suitability of your organs

if and when you do become a donor. It's really impossible for us to

tell what they will and won't be able to use, but they can figure it

out. Sometimes people can even donate if they've had diseases that

would normally preclude them from donating (for instance someone with

HIV might be able to donate to another HIV positive person.) I've

talked to a number of people about organ donation, and heard the

response " I'm sure they wouldn't want anything I've got! " In reality I

bet that most everyone is potentially able to donate something!

athan

> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:41 AM, scotty73ohio

> scottandlizg@... scottandlizg@...>> wrote:

>

>

>

> Well, I'm starting to work out what my " problem " with

> transplantation is. And I promise this will be the last I say on

> it, and sorry if it seems a little confusing--I'm confused myself

> by my own reaction to this seemingly simple situation. I get the

> whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to die

> anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is

> still a part of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on

> someone else's demise. (Hence, one of us " must " die--not that I

> caused it, but that there is no other way. If nobody else dies,

> then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that no one is

> injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be

> as strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of

> another human being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ

> donor and always have been. I'm starting to think it's more the

> idea of how the world works: it " feels " wrong to thrive off of

> suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it

> might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering

> of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it

> have been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if

> one believes it, there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a

> theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get into

> here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you

> want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just

> need to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time

> comes. Sad but grateful.

>

> Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the

> ambiguities and such. It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey

> areas. In the future maybe we can throw some ideas back and forth

> via email. This has been helpful, for me at least.

>

> Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however,

> about the " not knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility,

> especially if the not knowing is sort of " chosen. "

>

> in Ohio, PSC

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous

> ground if we

> > > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead

> or not they

> > > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of

> anywhere in the

> > > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > > >

> > > > Lori A.

> > > >

> > > > " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! "

> > > >

> > > > First Weber Group

> > > > Cell:

> > > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > > Waukesha, WI 53189

> > > > LoriUSA@

> > > > www.Lori.FirstWeber.com http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

> http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

>

> > > >

> > > > Click here

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________

> > > > From: scotty73ohio

> > > > To:

>

> http://40yahoogroups.com/>>

>

> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

> > > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ

> donation:

> > > Ethical question

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians

> accept brain

> > > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with

> the whole

> > > situation: some other family must lose something for me to

> live. It's hard.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.51/2052 - Release Date: 04/10/09

06:39:00

>

>

[Guest guest]

Even if your organs are not useful for transplant, your body can still be used to help save lives by allowing it to be used for research, or to train new physicians. A cure or treatment for PSC might be furthered, for example, by allowing the entire body to be studied post-death to help study things that cannot ethically be studied while we are alive. That process is a bit more complicated, since typically no one reaches out to the family the way that organ donors are approached - but that is what my grandparents did (and what my parents have set up for themselves). , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:27:30 AMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

DAVID MULLEN wrote:

> P.s. I just now thought of this since we are on the topic of organ

> donation... can PSCer's still be organ donors? I guess we have other

> "parts" so to speak that are healthy enough for donation? Do i need

> to change my status as an organ donor to let them know I have this

> disease? Do any of you carry special cards or something letting

> emergency personnel know you have PSC?

No, they'll investigate your health and the suitability of your organs

if and when you do become a donor. It's really impossible for us to

tell what they will and won't be able to use, but they can figure it

out. Sometimes people can even donate if they've had diseases that

would normally preclude them from donating (for instance someone with

HIV might be able to donate to another HIV positive person.) I've

talked to a number of people about organ donation, and heard the

response "I'm sure they wouldn't want anything I've got!" In reality I

bet that most everyone is potentially able to donate something!

athan

> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:41 AM, scotty73ohio

> <scottandlizg@ verizon.net <mailto:scottandlizg@ verizon.net>> wrote:

>

>

>

> Well, I'm starting to work out what my "problem" with

> transplantation is. And I promise this will be the last I say on

> it, and sorry if it seems a little confusing--I' m confused myself

> by my own reaction to this seemingly simple situation. I get the

> whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to die

> anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is

> still a part of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on

> someone else's demise. (Hence, one of us "must" die--not that I

> caused it, but that there is no other way. If nobody else dies,

> then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that no one is

> injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be

> as strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of

> another human being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ

> donor and always have been. I'm starting to think it's more the

> idea of how the world works: it "feels" wrong to thrive off of

> suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it

> might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering

> of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it

> have been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if

> one believes it, there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a

> theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get into

> here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you

> want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just

> need to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time

> comes. Sad but grateful.

>

> Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the

> ambiguities and such. It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey

> areas. In the future maybe we can throw some ideas back and forth

> via email. This has been helpful, for me at least.

>

> Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however,

> about the "not knowing" as a way of absolving responsibility,

> especially if the not knowing is sort of "chosen."

>

> in Ohio, PSC

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous

> ground if we

> > > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead

> or not they

> > > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of

> anywhere in the

> > > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > > >

> > > > Lori A.

> > > >

> > > > "Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

> > > >

> > > > First Weber Group

> > > > Cell:

> > > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > > Waukesha, WI 53189

> > > > LoriUSA@

> > > > www.Lori.FirstWeber .com <http://www.lori. firstweber. com/>

> <http://www.lori. firstweber. com/>

>

> > > >

> > > > Click here

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > > From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@ >

> > > > To: @ yahoogroups. com

> <mailto:psc- support%40yahoog roups.com>

> <% 40yahoogroups. com <http://40yahoogroup s.com/>>

>

> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

> > > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ

> donation:

> > > Ethical question

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians

> accept brain

> > > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with

> the whole

> > > situation: some other family must lose something for me to

> live. It's hard.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.51/2052 - Release Date: 04/10/09 06:39:00

>

>

[Guest guest]

Even if your organs are not useful for transplant, your body can still be used to help save lives by allowing it to be used for research, or to train new physicians. A cure or treatment for PSC might be furthered, for example, by allowing the entire body to be studied post-death to help study things that cannot ethically be studied while we are alive. That process is a bit more complicated, since typically no one reaches out to the family the way that organ donors are approached - but that is what my grandparents did (and what my parents have set up for themselves). , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:27:30 AMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

DAVID MULLEN wrote:

> P.s. I just now thought of this since we are on the topic of organ

> donation... can PSCer's still be organ donors? I guess we have other

> "parts" so to speak that are healthy enough for donation? Do i need

> to change my status as an organ donor to let them know I have this

> disease? Do any of you carry special cards or something letting

> emergency personnel know you have PSC?

No, they'll investigate your health and the suitability of your organs

if and when you do become a donor. It's really impossible for us to

tell what they will and won't be able to use, but they can figure it

out. Sometimes people can even donate if they've had diseases that

would normally preclude them from donating (for instance someone with

HIV might be able to donate to another HIV positive person.) I've

talked to a number of people about organ donation, and heard the

response "I'm sure they wouldn't want anything I've got!" In reality I

bet that most everyone is potentially able to donate something!

athan

> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:41 AM, scotty73ohio

> <scottandlizg@ verizon.net <mailto:scottandlizg@ verizon.net>> wrote:

>

>

>

> Well, I'm starting to work out what my "problem" with

> transplantation is. And I promise this will be the last I say on

> it, and sorry if it seems a little confusing--I' m confused myself

> by my own reaction to this seemingly simple situation. I get the

> whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to die

> anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is

> still a part of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on

> someone else's demise. (Hence, one of us "must" die--not that I

> caused it, but that there is no other way. If nobody else dies,

> then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that no one is

> injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be

> as strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of

> another human being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ

> donor and always have been. I'm starting to think it's more the

> idea of how the world works: it "feels" wrong to thrive off of

> suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it

> might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering

> of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it

> have been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if

> one believes it, there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a

> theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get into

> here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you

> want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just

> need to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time

> comes. Sad but grateful.

>

> Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the

> ambiguities and such. It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey

> areas. In the future maybe we can throw some ideas back and forth

> via email. This has been helpful, for me at least.

>

> Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however,

> about the "not knowing" as a way of absolving responsibility,

> especially if the not knowing is sort of "chosen."

>

> in Ohio, PSC

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous

> ground if we

> > > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead

> or not they

> > > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of

> anywhere in the

> > > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > > >

> > > > Lori A.

> > > >

> > > > "Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

> > > >

> > > > First Weber Group

> > > > Cell:

> > > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > > Waukesha, WI 53189

> > > > LoriUSA@

> > > > www.Lori.FirstWeber .com <http://www.lori. firstweber. com/>

> <http://www.lori. firstweber. com/>

>

> > > >

> > > > Click here

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > > From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@ >

> > > > To: @ yahoogroups. com

> <mailto:psc- support%40yahoog roups.com>

> <% 40yahoogroups. com <http://40yahoogroup s.com/>>

>

> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

> > > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ

> donation:

> > > Ethical question

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians

> accept brain

> > > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with

> the whole

> > > situation: some other family must lose something for me to

> live. It's hard.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.51/2052 - Release Date: 04/10/09 06:39:00

>

>

[Guest guest]

Even if your organs are not useful for transplant, your body can still be used to help save lives by allowing it to be used for research, or to train new physicians. A cure or treatment for PSC might be furthered, for example, by allowing the entire body to be studied post-death to help study things that cannot ethically be studied while we are alive. That process is a bit more complicated, since typically no one reaches out to the family the way that organ donors are approached - but that is what my grandparents did (and what my parents have set up for themselves). , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:27:30 AMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

DAVID MULLEN wrote:

> P.s. I just now thought of this since we are on the topic of organ

> donation... can PSCer's still be organ donors? I guess we have other

> "parts" so to speak that are healthy enough for donation? Do i need

> to change my status as an organ donor to let them know I have this

> disease? Do any of you carry special cards or something letting

> emergency personnel know you have PSC?

No, they'll investigate your health and the suitability of your organs

if and when you do become a donor. It's really impossible for us to

tell what they will and won't be able to use, but they can figure it

out. Sometimes people can even donate if they've had diseases that

would normally preclude them from donating (for instance someone with

HIV might be able to donate to another HIV positive person.) I've

talked to a number of people about organ donation, and heard the

response "I'm sure they wouldn't want anything I've got!" In reality I

bet that most everyone is potentially able to donate something!

athan

> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:41 AM, scotty73ohio

> <scottandlizg@ verizon.net <mailto:scottandlizg@ verizon.net>> wrote:

>

>

>

> Well, I'm starting to work out what my "problem" with

> transplantation is. And I promise this will be the last I say on

> it, and sorry if it seems a little confusing--I' m confused myself

> by my own reaction to this seemingly simple situation. I get the

> whole cause and effect thing. I know people are going to die

> anyway. But if I choose to reject a partial donation, there is

> still a part of me that sees my continued survival as dependent on

> someone else's demise. (Hence, one of us "must" die--not that I

> caused it, but that there is no other way. If nobody else dies,

> then I do.) Although now I can continue to pray that no one is

> injured or killed, when I am suffering more, will my strength be

> as strong? So my problem isn't really accepting the generosity of

> another human being--I myself am happy to be a potential organ

> donor and always have been. I'm starting to think it's more the

> idea of how the world works: it "feels" wrong to thrive off of

> suffering, but there isn't much of a choice. For a Christian, it

> might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous suffering

> of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it

> have been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if

> one believes it, there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a

> theological issue that I'm sure we don't want to get into

> here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email me if you

> want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just

> need to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time

> comes. Sad but grateful.

>

> Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the

> ambiguities and such. It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey

> areas. In the future maybe we can throw some ideas back and forth

> via email. This has been helpful, for me at least.

>

> Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however,

> about the "not knowing" as a way of absolving responsibility,

> especially if the not knowing is sort of "chosen."

>

> in Ohio, PSC

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous

> ground if we

> > > try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead

> or not they

> > > are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of

> anywhere in the

> > > scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> > > >

> > > > Lori A.

> > > >

> > > > "Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

> > > >

> > > > First Weber Group

> > > > Cell:

> > > > 1507 E. Sunset Drive

> > > > Waukesha, WI 53189

> > > > LoriUSA@

> > > > www.Lori.FirstWeber .com <http://www.lori. firstweber. com/>

> <http://www.lori. firstweber. com/>

>

> > > >

> > > > Click here

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > > From: scotty73ohio <scottandlizg@ >

> > > > To: @ yahoogroups. com

> <mailto:psc- support%40yahoog roups.com>

> <% 40yahoogroups. com <http://40yahoogroup s.com/>>

>

> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

> > > > Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ

> donation:

> > > Ethical question

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians

> accept brain

> > > death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

> > > life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with

> the whole

> > > situation: some other family must lose something for me to

> live. It's hard.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.51/2052 - Release Date: 04/10/09 06:39:00

>

>