Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

[Guest guest]

scotty73ohio wrote:

> I'm starting to think it's more the idea of how the world works: it " feels "

wrong to thrive off of suffering, but there isn't much of a choice.

I know how you feel. I thought I'd worked through all this, but then I

had my transplant and I had to work through my feelings on it all over

again. It was especially hard because I wrote a thank you letter to the

family of my donor, and it took me about six months to work out how to

approach that.

athan

> For a Christian, it might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous

suffering of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it have

been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if one believes it,

there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a theological issue that I'm sure

we don't want to get into here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email

me if you want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just need

to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time comes. Sad but

grateful.

>

> Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the ambiguities and such.

It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey areas. In the future maybe we can

throw some ideas back and forth via email. This has been helpful, for me at

least.

>

> Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however, about the " not

knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility, especially if the not knowing is

sort of " chosen. "

>

> in Ohio, PSC

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>>

>>>> I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we

>>>>

>>> try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they

>>> are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the

>>> scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

>>>

>>>> Lori A.

>>>>

>>>> " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! "

>>>>

>>>> First Weber Group

>>>> Cell:

>>>> 1507 E. Sunset Drive

>>>> Waukesha, WI 53189

>>>> LoriUSA@

>>>> www.Lori.FirstWeber.com http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

>>>>

>>>> Click here

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> ________________________________

>>>> From: scotty73ohio

>>>> To:

>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

>>>> Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation:

>>>>

>>> Ethical question

>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain

>>>>

>>> death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

>>> life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole

>>> situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.

>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

scotty73ohio wrote:

> I'm starting to think it's more the idea of how the world works: it " feels "

wrong to thrive off of suffering, but there isn't much of a choice.

I know how you feel. I thought I'd worked through all this, but then I

had my transplant and I had to work through my feelings on it all over

again. It was especially hard because I wrote a thank you letter to the

family of my donor, and it took me about six months to work out how to

approach that.

athan

> For a Christian, it might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous

suffering of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it have

been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if one believes it,

there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a theological issue that I'm sure

we don't want to get into here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email

me if you want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just need

to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time comes. Sad but

grateful.

>

> Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the ambiguities and such.

It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey areas. In the future maybe we can

throw some ideas back and forth via email. This has been helpful, for me at

least.

>

> Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however, about the " not

knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility, especially if the not knowing is

sort of " chosen. "

>

> in Ohio, PSC

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>>

>>>> I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we

>>>>

>>> try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they

>>> are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the

>>> scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

>>>

>>>> Lori A.

>>>>

>>>> " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! "

>>>>

>>>> First Weber Group

>>>> Cell:

>>>> 1507 E. Sunset Drive

>>>> Waukesha, WI 53189

>>>> LoriUSA@

>>>> www.Lori.FirstWeber.com http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

>>>>

>>>> Click here

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> ________________________________

>>>> From: scotty73ohio

>>>> To:

>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

>>>> Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation:

>>>>

>>> Ethical question

>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain

>>>>

>>> death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

>>> life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole

>>> situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.

>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

scotty73ohio wrote:

> I'm starting to think it's more the idea of how the world works: it " feels "

wrong to thrive off of suffering, but there isn't much of a choice.

I know how you feel. I thought I'd worked through all this, but then I

had my transplant and I had to work through my feelings on it all over

again. It was especially hard because I wrote a thank you letter to the

family of my donor, and it took me about six months to work out how to

approach that.

athan

> For a Christian, it might be similar to the idea of accepting the horrendous

suffering of Christ in exchange for life: it must be good, but wouldn't it have

been better to have not been necessary to begin with? And if one believes it,

there isn't much of a choice. (Although that's a theological issue that I'm sure

we don't want to get into here--just an analogy I wanted to use. But hey, email

me if you want.) Perhaps the whole thing is just depressing me and I just need

to toughen up. I will certainly accept a liver when the time comes. Sad but

grateful.

>

> Cheryl, I totally get where you're coming from about the ambiguities and such.

It gets tricky when there are a lot of grey areas. In the future maybe we can

throw some ideas back and forth via email. This has been helpful, for me at

least.

>

> Lori, thanks for all your input! I have to disagree, however, about the " not

knowing " as a way of absolving responsibility, especially if the not knowing is

sort of " chosen. "

>

> in Ohio, PSC

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>>

>>>> I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we

>>>>

>>> try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they

>>> are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the

>>> scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

>>>

>>>> Lori A.

>>>>

>>>> " Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs! "

>>>>

>>>> First Weber Group

>>>> Cell:

>>>> 1507 E. Sunset Drive

>>>> Waukesha, WI 53189

>>>> LoriUSA@

>>>> www.Lori.FirstWeber.com http://www.lori.firstweber.com/>

>>>>

>>>> Click here

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> ________________________________

>>>> From: scotty73ohio

>>>> To:

>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:37:50 PM

>>>> Subject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation:

>>>>

>>> Ethical question

>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Thanks, Ian. It didn't occur to me that most Christians accept brain

>>>>

>>> death as actual death. It seemed incongruent with other fights for

>>> life--even for those without brains. I've been struggling with the whole

>>> situation: some other family must lose something for me to live. It's hard.

>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Message from Barb came in blank, so I went to the website and copied,

 

>>>>The difference between you and I, is our definition of alive or deadIMHO, brain dead is total body death. When the brain dies, it no longercontrols " the activities necessary to sustain life " . When to breath in

and out, when the heart beats and pumps blood through the veins andarteries, when or how to digest food, how to get rid of waste products.All of these things and much more are necessary for life and if thecontrol center of the body (brain) stops, these functions that support

life also stop = dead. >>>>why have support on a person who is deadIn order to save the organs for donation, blood and oxygen must keepmoving through the body (as long as possible while they find an organ

recipent), to keep organs viable for transplant. >>>Am I understanding you correctly, if a person is on life support andtheir brain is not working at all, you consider them dead Yes, I do, so does the US Government and UNOS. Some rainy afternoon

when you've got nothing to do ;-) as if we ever have free time! readthis -http://www.bioethics.gov/reports/past_commissions/defining_death.pdf

HTH Barb in Texas - Together in the Fight - Whatever it Takes!Son Ken (34) UC 91 PSC 99, LTX 6/21 & 6/30 2007 @ Baylor/Dallas  

-- Ian Cribb  P.Eng.cell:  (6...Enefen - Reviewer/Designerwww.enefen.com

[Guest guest]

Message from Barb came in blank, so I went to the website and copied,

 

>>>>The difference between you and I, is our definition of alive or deadIMHO, brain dead is total body death. When the brain dies, it no longercontrols " the activities necessary to sustain life " . When to breath in

and out, when the heart beats and pumps blood through the veins andarteries, when or how to digest food, how to get rid of waste products.All of these things and much more are necessary for life and if thecontrol center of the body (brain) stops, these functions that support

life also stop = dead. >>>>why have support on a person who is deadIn order to save the organs for donation, blood and oxygen must keepmoving through the body (as long as possible while they find an organ

recipent), to keep organs viable for transplant. >>>Am I understanding you correctly, if a person is on life support andtheir brain is not working at all, you consider them dead Yes, I do, so does the US Government and UNOS. Some rainy afternoon

when you've got nothing to do ;-) as if we ever have free time! readthis -http://www.bioethics.gov/reports/past_commissions/defining_death.pdf

HTH Barb in Texas - Together in the Fight - Whatever it Takes!Son Ken (34) UC 91 PSC 99, LTX 6/21 & 6/30 2007 @ Baylor/Dallas  

-- Ian Cribb  P.Eng.cell:  (6...Enefen - Reviewer/Designerwww.enefen.com

[Guest guest]

Lori,

 

Looking at it from the other side. If I am brain dead (not yet, although some may think so ) ), I would rather they use what ever organs of mine they can rather than they keep my lifeless body alive for years after which time my organs may not be useable. I believe my all powerful God is capable of resurrecting me after I am brain dead and is still capable of resurrecting me even if I have donated all my vital organs. Please don't deny me the chance to donate life.

 

Ian (53) PSC 89 

Message from Barb came in blank, so I went to the website and copied,

 

>>>>The difference between you and I, is our definition of alive or deadIMHO, brain dead is total body death. When the brain dies, it no longercontrols " the activities necessary to sustain life " . When to breath in

and out, when the heart beats and pumps blood through the veins andarteries, when or how to digest food, how to get rid of waste products.All of these things and much more are necessary for life and if thecontrol center of the body (brain) stops, these functions that support

life also stop = dead. >>>>why have support on a person who is deadIn order to save the organs for donation, blood and oxygen must keepmoving through the body (as long as possible while they find an organ

recipent), to keep organs viable for transplant. >>>Am I understanding you correctly, if a person is on life support andtheir brain is not working at all, you consider them dead Yes, I do, so does the US Government and UNOS. Some rainy afternoon

when you've got nothing to do ;-) as if we ever have free time! readthis -http://www.bioethics.gov/reports/past_commissions/defining_death.pdf

HTH Barb in Texas - Together in the Fight - Whatever it Takes!Son Ken (34) UC 91 PSC 99, LTX 6/21 & 6/30 2007 @ Baylor/Dallas  

-- Ian Cribb  P.Eng.cell:  (6...Enefen - Reviewer/Designerwww.enefen.com

-- Ian Cribb  P.Eng.cell: Enefen - Reviewer/Designerwww.enefen.com

[Guest guest]

Lori,

 

Looking at it from the other side. If I am brain dead (not yet, although some may think so ) ), I would rather they use what ever organs of mine they can rather than they keep my lifeless body alive for years after which time my organs may not be useable. I believe my all powerful God is capable of resurrecting me after I am brain dead and is still capable of resurrecting me even if I have donated all my vital organs. Please don't deny me the chance to donate life.

 

Ian (53) PSC 89 

Message from Barb came in blank, so I went to the website and copied,

 

>>>>The difference between you and I, is our definition of alive or deadIMHO, brain dead is total body death. When the brain dies, it no longercontrols " the activities necessary to sustain life " . When to breath in

and out, when the heart beats and pumps blood through the veins andarteries, when or how to digest food, how to get rid of waste products.All of these things and much more are necessary for life and if thecontrol center of the body (brain) stops, these functions that support

life also stop = dead. >>>>why have support on a person who is deadIn order to save the organs for donation, blood and oxygen must keepmoving through the body (as long as possible while they find an organ

recipent), to keep organs viable for transplant. >>>Am I understanding you correctly, if a person is on life support andtheir brain is not working at all, you consider them dead Yes, I do, so does the US Government and UNOS. Some rainy afternoon

when you've got nothing to do ;-) as if we ever have free time! readthis -http://www.bioethics.gov/reports/past_commissions/defining_death.pdf

HTH Barb in Texas - Together in the Fight - Whatever it Takes!Son Ken (34) UC 91 PSC 99, LTX 6/21 & 6/30 2007 @ Baylor/Dallas  

-- Ian Cribb  P.Eng.cell:  (6...Enefen - Reviewer/Designerwww.enefen.com

-- Ian Cribb  P.Eng.cell: Enefen - Reviewer/Designerwww.enefen.com

[Guest guest]

Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??

If someone is brain dead, doesn't their heart stop, but the only reason it doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator, the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.

I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members (parents) and human rights groups).

Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's certainly a possibility.

Kim PSC 01/04 & UC

_________________________________________________

I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents. Lori A.

[Guest guest]

Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??

If someone is brain dead, doesn't their heart stop, but the only reason it doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator, the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.

I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members (parents) and human rights groups).

Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's certainly a possibility.

Kim PSC 01/04 & UC

_________________________________________________

I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents. Lori A.

[Guest guest]

Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??

If someone is brain dead, doesn't their heart stop, but the only reason it doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator, the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.

I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members (parents) and human rights groups).

Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's certainly a possibility.

Kim PSC 01/04 & UC

_________________________________________________

I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents. Lori A.

[Guest guest]

Lori wrote:(snip)"Am I understanding you correctly, if a person is on life support and their brain is not working at all, you consider them dead and believe it is OK to while they are living or least other parts of them are living (whether with some help or lots of help) take whatever organ is needed?"

and

(snip) "A person may say a person is dead when their brain is not functioning at all, the next person says, it is when you can't walk, talk, eat, or when someone is severely retarded and can't function at all. I know some people who decide some is dead because they have nothing to offer in this life or can't enjoy life at all so they decide that person is dead by taking their life. If a person is on life support and they remove that support and the patient dies, they are dead and if they are a donor those organs are used."

_______________________________________________

If the life support is removed and the patient "dies", isn't it too late to do a transplant as their organs die when the heart stops? Isn't that why they keep a brain dead patient alive with life support, so they can prepare for the transplant (or if there is to be no transplant, until family members can say their goodbyes)? I can't swear to this, but it sounds logical to me!

I think brain dead is not comparable to not being able to walk, talk, eat or being severely retarded. I don't think it's legal (at least I hope not) to take organs from someone just because they can't walk, talk, eat or are severely retarded.

(I better shut up now, I think I used my posting quota up for this year!)

Kim

PSC 01/04 & UC

[Guest guest]

Lori wrote:(snip)"Am I understanding you correctly, if a person is on life support and their brain is not working at all, you consider them dead and believe it is OK to while they are living or least other parts of them are living (whether with some help or lots of help) take whatever organ is needed?"

and

(snip) "A person may say a person is dead when their brain is not functioning at all, the next person says, it is when you can't walk, talk, eat, or when someone is severely retarded and can't function at all. I know some people who decide some is dead because they have nothing to offer in this life or can't enjoy life at all so they decide that person is dead by taking their life. If a person is on life support and they remove that support and the patient dies, they are dead and if they are a donor those organs are used."

_______________________________________________

If the life support is removed and the patient "dies", isn't it too late to do a transplant as their organs die when the heart stops? Isn't that why they keep a brain dead patient alive with life support, so they can prepare for the transplant (or if there is to be no transplant, until family members can say their goodbyes)? I can't swear to this, but it sounds logical to me!

I think brain dead is not comparable to not being able to walk, talk, eat or being severely retarded. I don't think it's legal (at least I hope not) to take organs from someone just because they can't walk, talk, eat or are severely retarded.

(I better shut up now, I think I used my posting quota up for this year!)

Kim

PSC 01/04 & UC

[Guest guest]

Lori wrote:(snip)"Am I understanding you correctly, if a person is on life support and their brain is not working at all, you consider them dead and believe it is OK to while they are living or least other parts of them are living (whether with some help or lots of help) take whatever organ is needed?"

and

(snip) "A person may say a person is dead when their brain is not functioning at all, the next person says, it is when you can't walk, talk, eat, or when someone is severely retarded and can't function at all. I know some people who decide some is dead because they have nothing to offer in this life or can't enjoy life at all so they decide that person is dead by taking their life. If a person is on life support and they remove that support and the patient dies, they are dead and if they are a donor those organs are used."

_______________________________________________

If the life support is removed and the patient "dies", isn't it too late to do a transplant as their organs die when the heart stops? Isn't that why they keep a brain dead patient alive with life support, so they can prepare for the transplant (or if there is to be no transplant, until family members can say their goodbyes)? I can't swear to this, but it sounds logical to me!

I think brain dead is not comparable to not being able to walk, talk, eat or being severely retarded. I don't think it's legal (at least I hope not) to take organs from someone just because they can't walk, talk, eat or are severely retarded.

(I better shut up now, I think I used my posting quota up for this year!)

Kim

PSC 01/04 & UC

[Guest guest]

There is a big difference between being in a coma/vegatative state and brain

death. That is why there are extenstive medical test that are done to determine

if the pt is actually brain dead. I do not want to go into the details here. It

has nothing to do with the pt's functional ability either mentally or

physically.

Not not to open another can of worms, but cardiac death where the heart stops

beating because the pt has expressed wishes to not have life extending

treatment does happen because the body shuts down but the pt is not brain dead.

So when the pt's heart stops than the organ donation has to take place

immediatly. These pt's are generally already in the hospital and know they are

going to die without treatment. This really limits the organs available as

mentioned in another post.

So it is a very complicated issue either way you look at it.

PSC 5/07 Listed

[Guest guest]

There is a big difference between being in a coma/vegatative state and brain

death. That is why there are extenstive medical test that are done to determine

if the pt is actually brain dead. I do not want to go into the details here. It

has nothing to do with the pt's functional ability either mentally or

physically.

Not not to open another can of worms, but cardiac death where the heart stops

beating because the pt has expressed wishes to not have life extending

treatment does happen because the body shuts down but the pt is not brain dead.

So when the pt's heart stops than the organ donation has to take place

immediatly. These pt's are generally already in the hospital and know they are

going to die without treatment. This really limits the organs available as

mentioned in another post.

So it is a very complicated issue either way you look at it.

PSC 5/07 Listed

[Guest guest]

There is a big difference between being in a coma/vegatative state and brain

death. That is why there are extenstive medical test that are done to determine

if the pt is actually brain dead. I do not want to go into the details here. It

has nothing to do with the pt's functional ability either mentally or

physically.

Not not to open another can of worms, but cardiac death where the heart stops

beating because the pt has expressed wishes to not have life extending

treatment does happen because the body shuts down but the pt is not brain dead.

So when the pt's heart stops than the organ donation has to take place

immediatly. These pt's are generally already in the hospital and know they are

going to die without treatment. This really limits the organs available as

mentioned in another post.

So it is a very complicated issue either way you look at it.

PSC 5/07 Listed

[Guest guest]

If/When the time comes for my transplant. If it is God's will for me to have a

transplant than a suitable liver will be available and everything will line up

for the transplant to take place. That is why I decided to get listed even

though I have a hard time getting my pea size brain around the whole idea. I

figure that way I have done what I need to do to be ready for whatever God's

plan for me is.

Life and death are in the hand of the Father. Sometimes I struggle with where

His hand is taking me, but I totally trust His heart and love for me.

Hope everyone has a wonderful Easter.

PSC 5/07 Listed

[Guest guest]

You have misunderstood me. My whole point was ones definition of dead and of brain dead. What about the people who are actually dead not those that are being kept alive? Can they be donors, those who die naturally in the hospital or someone else.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@...

www.Lori.FirstWeber.com

Click here

To: Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 4:14:25 PMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

I hope you never need an organ transplant or have a family member or loved one who needs one Lori. If brain dead people are kept on life support forever, there would be no organs available for anyone. If a person is brain dead, everything you love about that person is gone... already in whatever you consider your heaven. To force someone's body to keep breathing by a machine is just not right after a very short time. That is not living that is death. That is not a coma that you can come back from.My opinion....>> > Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??> > If someone is brain dead, doesn't their

heart stop, but the only reason it doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator, the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.> > I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members (parents) and human rights groups).> > Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's certainly a possibility.> > Kim PSC 01/04 & UC> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I

can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > Lori A. >

[Guest guest]

You have misunderstood me. My whole point was ones definition of dead and of brain dead. What about the people who are actually dead not those that are being kept alive? Can they be donors, those who die naturally in the hospital or someone else.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@...

www.Lori.FirstWeber.com

Click here

To: Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 4:14:25 PMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

I hope you never need an organ transplant or have a family member or loved one who needs one Lori. If brain dead people are kept on life support forever, there would be no organs available for anyone. If a person is brain dead, everything you love about that person is gone... already in whatever you consider your heaven. To force someone's body to keep breathing by a machine is just not right after a very short time. That is not living that is death. That is not a coma that you can come back from.My opinion....>> > Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??> > If someone is brain dead, doesn't their

heart stop, but the only reason it doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator, the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.> > I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members (parents) and human rights groups).> > Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's certainly a possibility.> > Kim PSC 01/04 & UC> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I

can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > Lori A. >

[Guest guest]

You have misunderstood me. My whole point was ones definition of dead and of brain dead. What about the people who are actually dead not those that are being kept alive? Can they be donors, those who die naturally in the hospital or someone else.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@...

www.Lori.FirstWeber.com

Click here

To: Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 4:14:25 PMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

I hope you never need an organ transplant or have a family member or loved one who needs one Lori. If brain dead people are kept on life support forever, there would be no organs available for anyone. If a person is brain dead, everything you love about that person is gone... already in whatever you consider your heaven. To force someone's body to keep breathing by a machine is just not right after a very short time. That is not living that is death. That is not a coma that you can come back from.My opinion....>> > Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??> > If someone is brain dead, doesn't their

heart stop, but the only reason it doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator, the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.> > I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members (parents) and human rights groups).> > Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's certainly a possibility.> > Kim PSC 01/04 & UC> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I

can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > Lori A. >

[Guest guest]

Generally not - if by "actually dead" you mean cardiac death.Cardiac death (the old medical and legal standard for death) most often destroys the organs in the process, or degrades them enough that they are not useable. When oxygen no longer reaches the organs, they generally degrade fairly quickly - it is respiration and blood pumping that gets the oxygen to the organs. There are a few organs that can still be used after cardiac death, if harvested quickly enough, but most cannot.Actually dead, by medical and legal standards (as well as by the standards expressed in Christian article you posted a link to earlier), includes people who are brain dead but whose organs are kept viable for transplant by (1) medication to keep the heart beating and moving around the body and

(2) artificial respiration to keep oxygen in the blood that is kept artificially flowing after death. , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 10:03:23 PMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

What about the people who are actually dead not those that are being kept alive? Can they be donors, those who die naturally in the hospital or someone else.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@ Yahoo.com

www.Lori.FirstWeber .com

Click here

From: Karyn <trackar (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca>To: @ yahoogroups. comSent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 4:14:25 PMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

I hope you never need an organ transplant or have a family member or loved one who needs one Lori. If brain dead people are kept on life support forever, there would be no organs available for anyone. If a person is brain dead, everything you love about that person is gone... already in whatever you consider your heaven. To force someone's body to keep breathing by a machine is just not right after a very short time. That is not living that is death. That is not a coma that you can come back from.My opinion....>> > Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??> > If someone is brain dead, doesn't

their

heart stop, but the only reason it doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator, the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.> > I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members (parents) and human rights groups).> > Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's certainly a possibility.> > Kim PSC 01/04 & UC> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I

can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > Lori A. >

[Guest guest]

Generally not - if by "actually dead" you mean cardiac death.Cardiac death (the old medical and legal standard for death) most often destroys the organs in the process, or degrades them enough that they are not useable. When oxygen no longer reaches the organs, they generally degrade fairly quickly - it is respiration and blood pumping that gets the oxygen to the organs. There are a few organs that can still be used after cardiac death, if harvested quickly enough, but most cannot.Actually dead, by medical and legal standards (as well as by the standards expressed in Christian article you posted a link to earlier), includes people who are brain dead but whose organs are kept viable for transplant by (1) medication to keep the heart beating and moving around the body and

(2) artificial respiration to keep oxygen in the blood that is kept artificially flowing after death. , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 10:03:23 PMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

What about the people who are actually dead not those that are being kept alive? Can they be donors, those who die naturally in the hospital or someone else.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@ Yahoo.com

www.Lori.FirstWeber .com

Click here

From: Karyn <trackar (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca>To: @ yahoogroups. comSent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 4:14:25 PMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

I hope you never need an organ transplant or have a family member or loved one who needs one Lori. If brain dead people are kept on life support forever, there would be no organs available for anyone. If a person is brain dead, everything you love about that person is gone... already in whatever you consider your heaven. To force someone's body to keep breathing by a machine is just not right after a very short time. That is not living that is death. That is not a coma that you can come back from.My opinion....>> > Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??> > If someone is brain dead, doesn't

their

heart stop, but the only reason it doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator, the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.> > I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members (parents) and human rights groups).> > Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's certainly a possibility.> > Kim PSC 01/04 & UC> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I

can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > Lori A. >

[Guest guest]

Generally not - if by "actually dead" you mean cardiac death.Cardiac death (the old medical and legal standard for death) most often destroys the organs in the process, or degrades them enough that they are not useable. When oxygen no longer reaches the organs, they generally degrade fairly quickly - it is respiration and blood pumping that gets the oxygen to the organs. There are a few organs that can still be used after cardiac death, if harvested quickly enough, but most cannot.Actually dead, by medical and legal standards (as well as by the standards expressed in Christian article you posted a link to earlier), includes people who are brain dead but whose organs are kept viable for transplant by (1) medication to keep the heart beating and moving around the body and

(2) artificial respiration to keep oxygen in the blood that is kept artificially flowing after death. , Mom to 18 yo daughter UC 6/95, PSC 3/09To: Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 10:03:23 PMSubject: Re: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

What about the people who are actually dead not those that are being kept alive? Can they be donors, those who die naturally in the hospital or someone else.

Lori A.

"Aggressively Pursuing Solutions To Your Real Estate Needs!"

First Weber Group

Cell:

1507 E. Sunset Drive

Waukesha, WI 53189

LoriUSA@ Yahoo.com

www.Lori.FirstWeber .com

Click here

From: Karyn <trackar (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca>To: @ yahoogroups. comSent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 4:14:25 PMSubject: Re: what does bible say about organ donation: Ethical question

I hope you never need an organ transplant or have a family member or loved one who needs one Lori. If brain dead people are kept on life support forever, there would be no organs available for anyone. If a person is brain dead, everything you love about that person is gone... already in whatever you consider your heaven. To force someone's body to keep breathing by a machine is just not right after a very short time. That is not living that is death. That is not a coma that you can come back from.My opinion....>> > Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??> > If someone is brain dead, doesn't

their

heart stop, but the only reason it doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator, the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.> > I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members (parents) and human rights groups).> > Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's certainly a possibility.> > Kim PSC 01/04 & UC> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are still alive in my opinion. I

can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.> > Lori A. >

[Guest guest]

Sorry Lori if I misunderstood you. For all of us who will need an organ in the

future, let's hope one becomes available to each and everyone of us. Let's also

hope the donor of the organs has the least amount of suffering possible before

their gift of life.

> >

> >

> > Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am

confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??

> >

> > If someone is brain dead, doesn't their heart stop, but the only reason it

doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator,

the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a

patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.

> >

> > I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the

past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to

remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members

(parents) and human rights groups).

> >

> > Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's

certainly a possibility.

> >

> > Kim PSC 01/04 & UC

> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> >

> > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we

try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are

still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures

that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> >

> > Lori A.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry Lori if I misunderstood you. For all of us who will need an organ in the

future, let's hope one becomes available to each and everyone of us. Let's also

hope the donor of the organs has the least amount of suffering possible before

their gift of life.

> >

> >

> > Lori, I was thinking the same thing, but then I wondered if maybe I am

confusing brain dead with being in a coma/ vegetative state??

> >

> > If someone is brain dead, doesn't their heart stop, but the only reason it

doesn't is because the patient is on a ventilator? So if not for the ventilator,

the patient dies (or am I wrong about that?). I wouldn't think removing a

patient from a ventilator (if they are brain dead) would be playing God.

> >

> > I do think it's wrong to withhold food though (I think I was thinking of the

past high profile cases where a spouse of someone in a coma/veg state wants to

remove the feeding tube, but is blocked by the patient's other family members

(parents) and human rights groups).

> >

> > Or maybe I am just confused all around...been feeling bad lately, so it's

certainly a possibility.

> >

> > Kim PSC 01/04 & UC

> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> >

> > I am a christian and I disagree. I think we are on dangerous ground if we

try to play God and decide when someone should die. Brain dead or not they are

still alive in my opinion. I can't really think of anywhere in the scriptures

that would disagree with me. Just my 2 cents.

> >

> > Lori A.

> >

>