Re: t4 storage-buildup in the blood

[Guest guest]

Thanks . I knew my dr sure wasn't up for answering anything about either

of those two when I mentioned them. He had promised me 'ANYTHING' I wanted for

thyroid replacement, then decided later that Armour couldn't be 'one of those

thyroid meds' and that I didn't need anything. sigh.

SandyE~Houston

Re: Re: t4 storage-buildup in the blood

Not sure if this is a real scientific source, but body builders use T2.

Supposedly they get the muscle building power and weight loss effects without

the hyper of too much thyroid, like if they took T3 for the same effect. T1 I

haven't a clue!

*Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

Thanks . I knew my dr sure wasn't up for answering anything about either

of those two when I mentioned them. He had promised me 'ANYTHING' I wanted for

thyroid replacement, then decided later that Armour couldn't be 'one of those

thyroid meds' and that I didn't need anything. sigh.

SandyE~Houston

Re: Re: t4 storage-buildup in the blood

Not sure if this is a real scientific source, but body builders use T2.

Supposedly they get the muscle building power and weight loss effects without

the hyper of too much thyroid, like if they took T3 for the same effect. T1 I

haven't a clue!

*Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/16/2005 8:48:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,

gnattygrl@... writes:

> T4 is actually what is

> used in the brain - T3 cannot cross the blood brain barrier

but i thought i had read - that the thyroid gland does produce some T3 on its

own...and that's why folks with psychiatric symptoms do well on armour -

because it has T3 that can be used by the brain.

anyone know more about this - about the brain and using straight T3 as

opposed to conversion. from some reason, i thought the brain could not convert.

cindi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/16/2005 8:48:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,

gnattygrl@... writes:

> T4 is actually what is

> used in the brain - T3 cannot cross the blood brain barrier

but i thought i had read - that the thyroid gland does produce some T3 on its

own...and that's why folks with psychiatric symptoms do well on armour -

because it has T3 that can be used by the brain.

anyone know more about this - about the brain and using straight T3 as

opposed to conversion. from some reason, i thought the brain could not convert.

cindi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/16/2005 8:48:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,

gnattygrl@... writes:

> T4 is actually what is

> used in the brain - T3 cannot cross the blood brain barrier

but i thought i had read - that the thyroid gland does produce some T3 on its

own...and that's why folks with psychiatric symptoms do well on armour -

because it has T3 that can be used by the brain.

anyone know more about this - about the brain and using straight T3 as

opposed to conversion. from some reason, i thought the brain could not convert.

cindi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/16/2005 10:46:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,

gnattygrl@... writes:

> From the

> paper I sent to Janie to post in the files section:

>

> " The T4 hormone merely serves as a pro_hormone or pre-hormone, with

> the possible exception of brain-function, which may require a

> significant amount of T4 for its optimal function because T4 is

> transported through the choroid plexus and T3 is not (Whybrow

well this gets more confusing...because i'm reading it different in different

places...but i note this does say " May " ...so i'm wondering if they really

know?

cindi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/16/2005 12:17:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, npm@...

writes:

> I have a huge respect for modern medicine in many regards, but dang,

> they've really muffed this one up.

>

great post...and a gal after my heart by using " dang " ....and i like " muffed "

it up too. you southern?

cindi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/16/2005 12:17:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, npm@...

writes:

> I have a huge respect for modern medicine in many regards, but dang,

> they've really muffed this one up.

>

great post...and a gal after my heart by using " dang " ....and i like " muffed "

it up too. you southern?

cindi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/16/2005 12:17:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, npm@...

writes:

> I have a huge respect for modern medicine in many regards, but dang,

> they've really muffed this one up.

>

great post...and a gal after my heart by using " dang " ....and i like " muffed "

it up too. you southern?

cindi

[Guest guest]

> Kerry, that was supposed to be 1/4 grain right? I'm thinking that

the feeling better sooner actually comes from the T3 which is in the

here and now.

It can't be just the T3, T4 plays a part. T4 is actually what is

used in the brain - T3 cannot cross the blood brain barrier, but T4

can, and it gets converted there into T3. I know when I was first

diagnosed I was put on only T4 meds and told I wouldn't notcie

anything for weeks, because it's so slow acting. I noticed a

difference the next day; no more constant headaches, the brain fog

lifted a little and the dizziness stopped.

[Guest guest]

> Kerry, that was supposed to be 1/4 grain right? I'm thinking that

the feeling better sooner actually comes from the T3 which is in the

here and now.

It can't be just the T3, T4 plays a part. T4 is actually what is

used in the brain - T3 cannot cross the blood brain barrier, but T4

can, and it gets converted there into T3. I know when I was first

diagnosed I was put on only T4 meds and told I wouldn't notcie

anything for weeks, because it's so slow acting. I noticed a

difference the next day; no more constant headaches, the brain fog

lifted a little and the dizziness stopped.

[Guest guest]

I know when I was first

> diagnosed I was put on only T4 meds and told I wouldn't notcie

> anything for weeks, because it's so slow acting. I noticed a

> difference the next day; no more constant headaches, the brain fog

> lifted a little and the dizziness stopped.

This is a very interesting subjective observation which seems to

confirm the T4 action to T3 in the brain. Glad you shared it.

Janie

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 3/16/2005 8:48:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> gnattygrl@y... writes:

>

> > T4 is actually what is

> > used in the brain - T3 cannot cross the blood brain barrier

>

> but i thought i had read - that the thyroid gland does produce

some T3 on its

> own...and that's why folks with psychiatric symptoms do well on

armour -

> because it has T3 that can be used by the brain.

> anyone know more about this - about the brain and using straight

T3 as

> opposed to conversion. from some reason, i thought the brain

could not convert.

> cindi

Yep, that's what I thought as well - however that's now how it

works. At least according to Dr. Dommisse's research. From the

paper I sent to Janie to post in the files section:

" The T4 hormone merely serves as a pro_hormone or pre-hormone, with

the possible exception of brain-function, which may require a

significant amount of T4 for its optimal function because T4 is

transported through the choroid plexus and T3 is not (Whybrow,

1991; Whybrow, 1994). "

[Guest guest]

OK, a big gold star on your report card for finding these

interesting research articles.

As far as the statement " The in vivo T4 to T3 conversion, as a

function of weight, accounted for 21% of cerebellum needs and 43% of

brain needs. The rest was provided by T3 uptake. " ---if only 21% of

cerebellum's needs and 43% of the brain's needs come from the

conversion, it also shows the great need for the " direct " T3.

Because if I am reading it right, that would mean that 79% of the

cerebellum's needs and 57% of the brains needs are for the direct T3.

Makes you wonder once again why any doc could defend the practice of

giving a patient ONLY T4-only meds........

Janie

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11094382&dopt=Abstract

>

>

[Guest guest]

OK, a big gold star on your report card for finding these

interesting research articles.

As far as the statement " The in vivo T4 to T3 conversion, as a

function of weight, accounted for 21% of cerebellum needs and 43% of

brain needs. The rest was provided by T3 uptake. " ---if only 21% of

cerebellum's needs and 43% of the brain's needs come from the

conversion, it also shows the great need for the " direct " T3.

Because if I am reading it right, that would mean that 79% of the

cerebellum's needs and 57% of the brains needs are for the direct T3.

Makes you wonder once again why any doc could defend the practice of

giving a patient ONLY T4-only meds........

Janie

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11094382&dopt=Abstract

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> OK, a big gold star on your report card for finding these

> interesting research articles.

>

> As far as the statement " The in vivo T4 to T3 conversion, as a

> function of weight, accounted for 21% of cerebellum needs and 43%

of

> brain needs. The rest was provided by T3 uptake. " ---if only 21% of

> cerebellum's needs and 43% of the brain's needs come from the

> conversion, it also shows the great need for the " direct " T3.

>

> Because if I am reading it right, that would mean that 79% of the

> cerebellum's needs and 57% of the brains needs are for the direct

T3.

>

> Makes you wonder once again why any doc could defend the practice

of

> giving a patient ONLY T4-only meds........

>

> Janie

>

>

> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11094382&dopt=Abstract

> >

I cring when I hear about how someone is doing 'great' on just

synthroid. I also cring when I hear how someone is doing 'great' on

cytomel alone. We need them both - otherwise our bodies wouldn't

make them.

ONTH, The problem with these studies is you can find one to back up

just about anything (I once found one that wherein athsma inhallers

were made out of chocolate to ensure they were used):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6470136

In hypothyroidism, the Cx is protected by an increase in the

efficiency of T4 to T3 conversion and a prolong residence time of T3

in the tissue, whereas the Cm is protected only by the latter.

Because of the large fraction of the T3 produced locally and the

active turnover rate of T3 in the brain, reductions in T3 removal

rate are of utmost importance for T3 homeostasis in these tissues.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=4017962

Although there were no regional differences between the total T3

levels in the brain, the relative contribution of locally converted

T3(T4) was 65% in the cerebral cortex and only 22% in the spinal cord

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3766050

From these data the concentrations of T4, total T3 and T3 derived

from local T4 to T3 conversion (LcT3(T4)) in tissue could be

calculated. The relative mean contribution of LcT3(T4) to the total

T3 in Cerebral cotex (75%), thymus (31%), testis (43%) and brown

adipose tissue (65%) from hypothyroid rats was higher than that

determined for euthyroid animals (66%, 19%, 29% and 27%,

respectively). The reverse was found for the liver (15% vs 39%).

[Guest guest]

> well this gets more confusing...because i'm reading it different in

different

> places...but i note this does say " May " ...so i'm wondering if they

really

> know?

> cindi

I have a feeling that medical researchers got really smug about their

knowledge of thyroid once they started using TSH labs and few people

are bothering to research it further. The story that hypothyroidism

is " easy to treat " took root and has blossomed into an industry of

lousy half-treatment and a lot of entrepeneurial doctors making lots

of quick cash for treating hypothyroidism like they used to do, before

the stupid TSH test and synthetic thyroid hormones.

The entrepeneurial doctors are writing books and trying to win the

acceptance of their stodgier colleauges and lend credibility to their

treatments for their patients comfort. Who knows if they're right or

not, I don't think the basic science has been done yet to really

understand it. They're not scientists, they're doctors.

The sum is, we still don't know squat about thyroid and most doctors

might as well be bleeding you with leeches for all they know about it.

Meanwhile the few doctors who caught on to the fact that

hypothyroidism is being badly treated are raking in the cash by

treating it like it was 100 years ago and charging a premium for it!

I have a huge respect for modern medicine in many regards, but dang,

they've really muffed this one up.

[Guest guest]

Ok. This is a perfect example of how wonderful the internet can be.

I read this and my brain went " click, Aahhhaaa! " Thanks Nat! and Janie!!

In 1990, for almost 2 months, I tried a trial of 2 Prozac pills per week

for chronic acute " depression " (another way to spell Low Thyroid!) and

I started getting dizzy spells which were thoroughly (I thought at the time)

checked out by specialists. I see, now, the anti-thyroid, anti-adrenal effects

of the flourine and tin that make up the huge flouoxetine hydrochloride

molecule!

My brain was begging for T3!!

Gosh I'm glad I didn't keep taking that toxic waste!

....

I know when I was first

> diagnosed I was put on only T4 meds and told I wouldn't notcie

> anything for weeks, because it's so slow acting. I noticed a

> difference the next day; no more constant headaches, the brain fog

> lifted a little and the ***dizziness*** stopped.

This is a very interesting subjective observation which seems to

confirm the T4 action to T3 in the brain. Glad you shared it.

Janie

[Guest guest]

On the subject of half life, it is as its name says, the time for one

half of the drug, or what ever to be reduced by one half. At 2 half

life intervals, there woudl be 1/4 of what you started with. It

progresses, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128, 1/256, etc. It is a

standard binary regression.

>

> Hi Kerry. You are actually talking about two totally different

> processes.

>

> Half life refers to the amount of time to takes for a drug to be

> metabolized or eliminated by your normal biological processes...i.e.

> if you stop taking a med, the effective amount you will have left in

> your system " 7 days later " . Some half lifes are shorter, some longer.

>

> On the other hand, meds like T4 can take several weeks to build in

> the system to it's full effective amount, perhaps because you are

> using it as you go along...so it takes awhile for the excess to

> build....it's like eating 2000 calories a day for many days--your

> body uses 1500 of those calories each day, leaving an excess of 500

> calories.....and that excess builds and builds over time, until you

> eventually find yourself 10 lbs overweight!! Simplified explanation,

> but it works. LOL.

>

> Janie

>

> > I did a little reading and found the T4 has a half

> > life of 6-7 days. So, exactly what that means to this

> > " wait 4-6 weeks until we test again " thing, can

> > someone explain? Shouldn't it build up faster than 4-6

> > weeks?

> >

> > Kerry

> >

[Guest guest]

I think you have it backward. T4 is broken down into T3, which the

body can use. Where T4 comes into play is, the patuitary gland

" monitors " T4, when it gets low, it signals the thyroid, through TSH

to make more homones, which are 4 parts T4, and 1 part T3. Over time

the body either breaks down the T4 into T3 and free iodine, or it

disposes of it over time.

T3 is what the body realy needs. That is why teh T3 preperations

bring you up so fast Days or hours insted of many days or weeks.

This is my understanding. If you have information to the contrayr,

post it, please.

> > Kerry, that was supposed to be 1/4 grain right? I'm thinking that

> the feeling better sooner actually comes from the T3 which is in the

> here and now.

>

> It can't be just the T3, T4 plays a part. T4 is actually what is

> used in the brain - T3 cannot cross the blood brain barrier, but T4

> can, and it gets converted there into T3. I know when I was first

> diagnosed I was put on only T4 meds and told I wouldn't notcie

> anything for weeks, because it's so slow acting. I noticed a

> difference the next day; no more constant headaches, the brain fog

> lifted a little and the dizziness stopped.

[Guest guest]

> Makes you wonder once again why any doc could defend the practice of

> giving a patient ONLY T4-only meds........

>

They either got snckered by the pharmas, or they sold out to them.

> Janie

>

>

> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11094382&dopt=Abstract

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>

> I think you have it backward. T4 is broken down into T3, which the

> body can use. Where T4 comes into play is, the patuitary gland

> " monitors " T4, when it gets low, it signals the thyroid, through

TSH

> to make more homones, which are 4 parts T4, and 1 part T3. Over

time

> the body either breaks down the T4 into T3 and free iodine, or it

> disposes of it over time.

>

> T3 is what the body realy needs. That is why teh T3 preperations

> bring you up so fast Days or hours insted of many days or weeks.

>

>

> This is my understanding. If you have information to the contrayr,

> post it, please.

I posted about 4 times previously with links and info.

[Guest guest]

>

> I think you have it backward. T4 is broken down into T3, which the

> body can use. Where T4 comes into play is, the patuitary gland

> " monitors " T4, when it gets low, it signals the thyroid, through

TSH

> to make more homones, which are 4 parts T4, and 1 part T3. Over

time

> the body either breaks down the T4 into T3 and free iodine, or it

> disposes of it over time.

>

> T3 is what the body realy needs. That is why teh T3 preperations

> bring you up so fast Days or hours insted of many days or weeks.

>

>

> This is my understanding. If you have information to the contrayr,

> post it, please.

I posted about 4 times previously with links and info.

[Guest guest]

>

> I think you have it backward. T4 is broken down into T3, which the

> body can use. Where T4 comes into play is, the patuitary gland

> " monitors " T4, when it gets low, it signals the thyroid, through

TSH

> to make more homones, which are 4 parts T4, and 1 part T3. Over

time

> the body either breaks down the T4 into T3 and free iodine, or it

> disposes of it over time.

>

> T3 is what the body realy needs. That is why teh T3 preperations

> bring you up so fast Days or hours insted of many days or weeks.

>

>

> This is my understanding. If you have information to the contrayr,

> post it, please.

I posted about 4 times previously with links and info.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/17/2005 10:41:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,

klb58@... writes:

> When I read this kind of thing, my mind totally shuts

> down. I don't know if that is a hypo thing that will

> change with increases or if I just don't get math.

>

it's sorta a hypo thing. it took months and months before i could comprehend

some stuff.

cindi