Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 1:34:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > http://www.hotthyroidology.com/editorial_135.html > Okay...what exactly did this say? It seemed to indicate that TSH suppression is bad. In any case. But why? why is suppressing TSH a bad thing? because when they are saying that - they are meaning that the person is getting too much thyroid hormone...and then they go on to say that they can't measure it in the tissues...because It also said that tissue response is different that TSH...and that there needed to be a marker for tissue response. So in other words ...it's saying that TSH doesn't really tell the story because a person could have tissue hypo. Geez, we could have told them that right off the bat. It also seemed to say " you're cooked any way you go " . And i for one, rather be cooked feeling 1/2 way decent than 1/2 way bad. Any other comments anybody on this? the conclusions are below: Despite 100 years of thyroid hormone replacement, controversy still exists about the optimum replacement therapy for hypothyroid patients. Several recent studies have given insight in to the complex thyroid hormone metabolism. These support the hypothesis that serum and tissue levels of thyroid hormones may diverge significantly and vary between tissues. The dissatisfaction experienced by some individuals on thyroxine replacement despite normal TSH levels may in part relate to this. If so, it should be seen as a pointer to greater understanding of the action of thyroid hormone and its predisposing effects on morbidity in many conditions rather than an unwelcome clinical frustration. If so, we are the beginning of a road of discovery rather than at the end of an unsuccessful chapter in thyroid hormone replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 1:34:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > http://www.hotthyroidology.com/editorial_135.html > Okay...what exactly did this say? It seemed to indicate that TSH suppression is bad. In any case. But why? why is suppressing TSH a bad thing? because when they are saying that - they are meaning that the person is getting too much thyroid hormone...and then they go on to say that they can't measure it in the tissues...because It also said that tissue response is different that TSH...and that there needed to be a marker for tissue response. So in other words ...it's saying that TSH doesn't really tell the story because a person could have tissue hypo. Geez, we could have told them that right off the bat. It also seemed to say " you're cooked any way you go " . And i for one, rather be cooked feeling 1/2 way decent than 1/2 way bad. Any other comments anybody on this? the conclusions are below: Despite 100 years of thyroid hormone replacement, controversy still exists about the optimum replacement therapy for hypothyroid patients. Several recent studies have given insight in to the complex thyroid hormone metabolism. These support the hypothesis that serum and tissue levels of thyroid hormones may diverge significantly and vary between tissues. The dissatisfaction experienced by some individuals on thyroxine replacement despite normal TSH levels may in part relate to this. If so, it should be seen as a pointer to greater understanding of the action of thyroid hormone and its predisposing effects on morbidity in many conditions rather than an unwelcome clinical frustration. If so, we are the beginning of a road of discovery rather than at the end of an unsuccessful chapter in thyroid hormone replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 1:34:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > http://www.hotthyroidology.com/editorial_135.html > Okay...what exactly did this say? It seemed to indicate that TSH suppression is bad. In any case. But why? why is suppressing TSH a bad thing? because when they are saying that - they are meaning that the person is getting too much thyroid hormone...and then they go on to say that they can't measure it in the tissues...because It also said that tissue response is different that TSH...and that there needed to be a marker for tissue response. So in other words ...it's saying that TSH doesn't really tell the story because a person could have tissue hypo. Geez, we could have told them that right off the bat. It also seemed to say " you're cooked any way you go " . And i for one, rather be cooked feeling 1/2 way decent than 1/2 way bad. Any other comments anybody on this? the conclusions are below: Despite 100 years of thyroid hormone replacement, controversy still exists about the optimum replacement therapy for hypothyroid patients. Several recent studies have given insight in to the complex thyroid hormone metabolism. These support the hypothesis that serum and tissue levels of thyroid hormones may diverge significantly and vary between tissues. The dissatisfaction experienced by some individuals on thyroxine replacement despite normal TSH levels may in part relate to this. If so, it should be seen as a pointer to greater understanding of the action of thyroid hormone and its predisposing effects on morbidity in many conditions rather than an unwelcome clinical frustration. If so, we are the beginning of a road of discovery rather than at the end of an unsuccessful chapter in thyroid hormone replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hey, Janie, do you have a source I can give my doc to tell her it's OKAY to ignore TSH when you have antibodies? She agreed to give me Armour (yay!). I was on 4 grains of TCL, and she put me on 3 grains Armour (because my TSH was suppressed) Actually, I think I come out ahead, since Armour is more potent. She SAID she tested free T3 & T4, but what I got was TOTAL T3. Free T4 was mid-range, and total T3 was over the top - I'm assuming that FREE T3 would have been at the top or over, also. What I'm looking for is a credible source to show her that she can IGNORE the TSH and dose totally by free T3 and T4 when a patient has tested positive for antibodies, like I have.. I have the feeling she can't stray too far from " established standards " because this is an HMO and she has to account for what she does. What helps is...she's hypo, too! And she takes Synthroid. I've heard from her staff that she's off a lot. I keep thinking I ought to tell her to give herself a trial of Armour to see if she feels a difference, but I don't quite know how to broach it. I think if I had reputable sources to cite, she might be more open to alternative treatment approaches. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 How far along are you into the treatment process? I have some very crediable sources that say to ignore TSH for something like the first 6 months until the body resets its compensating factors. > Hey, Janie, do you have a source I can give my doc to tell her it's OKAY to ignore TSH when you have antibodies? She agreed to give me Armour (yay!). I was on 4 grains of TCL, and she put me on 3 grains Armour (because my TSH was suppressed) Actually, I think I come out ahead, since Armour is more potent. She SAID she tested free T3 & T4, but what I got was TOTAL T3. Free T4 was mid-range, and total T3 was over the top - I'm assuming that FREE T3 would have been at the top or over, also. What I'm looking for is a credible source to show her that she can IGNORE the TSH and dose totally by free T3 and T4 when a patient has tested positive for antibodies, like I have.. I have the feeling she can't stray too far from " established standards " because this is an HMO and she has to account for what she does. What helps is...she's hypo, too! And she takes Synthroid. I've heard from her staff that she's off a lot. I keep thinking I ought to tell her to give herself a trial of Armour to see if she feels a difference, but I don't quite know how to broach it. I think if I had reputable sources to cite, she might be more open to alternative treatment approaches. > > Laurie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 How far along are you into the treatment process? I have some very crediable sources that say to ignore TSH for something like the first 6 months until the body resets its compensating factors. > Hey, Janie, do you have a source I can give my doc to tell her it's OKAY to ignore TSH when you have antibodies? She agreed to give me Armour (yay!). I was on 4 grains of TCL, and she put me on 3 grains Armour (because my TSH was suppressed) Actually, I think I come out ahead, since Armour is more potent. She SAID she tested free T3 & T4, but what I got was TOTAL T3. Free T4 was mid-range, and total T3 was over the top - I'm assuming that FREE T3 would have been at the top or over, also. What I'm looking for is a credible source to show her that she can IGNORE the TSH and dose totally by free T3 and T4 when a patient has tested positive for antibodies, like I have.. I have the feeling she can't stray too far from " established standards " because this is an HMO and she has to account for what she does. What helps is...she's hypo, too! And she takes Synthroid. I've heard from her staff that she's off a lot. I keep thinking I ought to tell her to give herself a trial of Armour to see if she feels a difference, but I don't quite know how to broach it. I think if I had reputable sources to cite, she might be more open to alternative treatment approaches. > > Laurie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 >How far along are you into the treatment process? I have some very >crediable sources that say to ignore TSH for something like the first >6 months until the body resets its compensating factors. I was diagnosed as hypo around three years ago. Undertreated for over two - gee, if my TSH is less than 6, I *must* be okay! Started self-treating with TCL last August, I think, when i found this group. Janie has started a fledgling movement here, I think. I hope we can make it grow and grow! Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 >How far along are you into the treatment process? I have some very >crediable sources that say to ignore TSH for something like the first >6 months until the body resets its compensating factors. I was diagnosed as hypo around three years ago. Undertreated for over two - gee, if my TSH is less than 6, I *must* be okay! Started self-treating with TCL last August, I think, when i found this group. Janie has started a fledgling movement here, I think. I hope we can make it grow and grow! Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 >How far along are you into the treatment process? I have some very >crediable sources that say to ignore TSH for something like the first >6 months until the body resets its compensating factors. I was diagnosed as hypo around three years ago. Undertreated for over two - gee, if my TSH is less than 6, I *must* be okay! Started self-treating with TCL last August, I think, when i found this group. Janie has started a fledgling movement here, I think. I hope we can make it grow and grow! Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > Depending on how bad the thyroid has been damaged > by the antibodies it is very possible that what it could produce at a > TSH of 1 when it was healthy it cannot produce that same amount any > longer with that same TSH. > ah..got it. very interesting. cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > Depending on how bad the thyroid has been damaged > by the antibodies it is very possible that what it could produce at a > TSH of 1 when it was healthy it cannot produce that same amount any > longer with that same TSH. > ah..got it. very interesting. cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > The amount of D-T4 > contamination is kept to a minimum of less than 2% but it is still > very possible that the samll amounts of D-T4 in the meds will cause > your TSH to come down quicker than it should which is why " they " say that only a little bit of synthroid effectively lowers TSH...which might not mean a thing as to the actual thyroid hormone levels? cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > The amount of D-T4 > contamination is kept to a minimum of less than 2% but it is still > very possible that the samll amounts of D-T4 in the meds will cause > your TSH to come down quicker than it should which is why " they " say that only a little bit of synthroid effectively lowers TSH...which might not mean a thing as to the actual thyroid hormone levels? cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > The amount of D-T4 > contamination is kept to a minimum of less than 2% but it is still > very possible that the samll amounts of D-T4 in the meds will cause > your TSH to come down quicker than it should which is why " they " say that only a little bit of synthroid effectively lowers TSH...which might not mean a thing as to the actual thyroid hormone levels? cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > See I am still nuts!!!!!!LOL > if you've been studying thyroidal stuff all this time, it's understandable. cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > See I am still nuts!!!!!!LOL > if you've been studying thyroidal stuff all this time, it's understandable. cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > See I am still nuts!!!!!!LOL > if you've been studying thyroidal stuff all this time, it's understandable. cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > We both know that ultimately the thyroid is loseing its > ability to produce hormone the way it should be. What I think > happens in some people that are kept in normal TSH range is that if > there is still TSH in the blood then the thyroid is being told to > produce hormone. Depending on how bad the thyroid has been damaged > by the antibodies it is very possible that what it could produce at a > TSH of 1 when it was healthy it cannot produce that same amount any > longer with that same TSH. > which i could actually be a perfect example of....in my 30s...after 10 years of fatigue and now known hypo things...the TSH was only slightly over 2. it took another 10 years with increasing severity of symptoms to go to 6. so either my pituitary was affected in some way - or like you are saying - the body adjusted...and my TSH didn't mean what someone elses TSH means. cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > We both know that ultimately the thyroid is loseing its > ability to produce hormone the way it should be. What I think > happens in some people that are kept in normal TSH range is that if > there is still TSH in the blood then the thyroid is being told to > produce hormone. Depending on how bad the thyroid has been damaged > by the antibodies it is very possible that what it could produce at a > TSH of 1 when it was healthy it cannot produce that same amount any > longer with that same TSH. > which i could actually be a perfect example of....in my 30s...after 10 years of fatigue and now known hypo things...the TSH was only slightly over 2. it took another 10 years with increasing severity of symptoms to go to 6. so either my pituitary was affected in some way - or like you are saying - the body adjusted...and my TSH didn't mean what someone elses TSH means. cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 In a message dated 3/12/2005 6:05:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeneric46324@... writes: > We both know that ultimately the thyroid is loseing its > ability to produce hormone the way it should be. What I think > happens in some people that are kept in normal TSH range is that if > there is still TSH in the blood then the thyroid is being told to > produce hormone. Depending on how bad the thyroid has been damaged > by the antibodies it is very possible that what it could produce at a > TSH of 1 when it was healthy it cannot produce that same amount any > longer with that same TSH. > which i could actually be a perfect example of....in my 30s...after 10 years of fatigue and now known hypo things...the TSH was only slightly over 2. it took another 10 years with increasing severity of symptoms to go to 6. so either my pituitary was affected in some way - or like you are saying - the body adjusted...and my TSH didn't mean what someone elses TSH means. cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Give her a copy of this. http://www.hotthyroidology.com/editorial_135.html > >How far along are you into the treatment process? I have some very > >crediable sources that say to ignore TSH for something like the first > >6 months until the body resets its compensating factors. > > I was diagnosed as hypo around three years ago. Undertreated for over two - gee, if my TSH is less than 6, I *must* be okay! Started self-treating with TCL last August, I think, when i found this group. Janie has started a fledgling movement here, I think. I hope we can make it grow and grow! > > Laurie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Give her a copy of this. http://www.hotthyroidology.com/editorial_135.html > >How far along are you into the treatment process? I have some very > >crediable sources that say to ignore TSH for something like the first > >6 months until the body resets its compensating factors. > > I was diagnosed as hypo around three years ago. Undertreated for over two - gee, if my TSH is less than 6, I *must* be okay! Started self-treating with TCL last August, I think, when i found this group. Janie has started a fledgling movement here, I think. I hope we can make it grow and grow! > > Laurie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Give her a copy of this. http://www.hotthyroidology.com/editorial_135.html > >How far along are you into the treatment process? I have some very > >crediable sources that say to ignore TSH for something like the first > >6 months until the body resets its compensating factors. > > I was diagnosed as hypo around three years ago. Undertreated for over two - gee, if my TSH is less than 6, I *must* be okay! Started self-treating with TCL last August, I think, when i found this group. Janie has started a fledgling movement here, I think. I hope we can make it grow and grow! > > Laurie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 > Okay...what exactly did this say? I didn't see anything about TSH suppression in there, i did read it quite quickly though. I think the conclusion says it all, thyroid hormone treatment is far from straight foreward as they once thought espically with some new findings they have made. I espically like table 1 where they broke down quite specifically the reasons of why a normal TSH means nearly nothing about how the body is useing the hormone. There is also some very damning evidence for the idiot T4 only docs that do nothing but TSH and T4 tests, free or total, to monitor their patients. Basically it is just saying that they are not as advanced with treatment as they perceieve to be. Now if you remeber me Cindi you know my thought process does not exactly follow theirs. As much as I like to see a paper like this come out there are still two ideas that have never been talked about, not even by some of the good docs we all would like to get treated by. I first have to explain something......there has been some convincing work done on how the system will chgange to compensate for hypothyroidism, some of them are discussed in this paper. Basically all of them have to do with hormone ratios and changes in enzyme levels so that the body can keep the the hormone coming but still operate quite efficanciletaly on lower amounts of it. The first area they just skip over logical thought is in the actual amount the thyropid can secrete, this is espically important with hashi's. We both know that ultimately the thyroid is loseing its ability to produce hormone the way it should be. What I think happens in some people that are kept in normal TSH range is that if there is still TSH in the blood then the thyroid is being told to produce hormone. Depending on how bad the thyroid has been damaged by the antibodies it is very possible that what it could produce at a TSH of 1 when it was healthy it cannot produce that same amount any longer with that same TSH. Now the other area that no one has touched yet is with the T4 meds themselves. What happens when they make T4 in the lab is that not all the hormone is made correctly. What happens is that some of the molecules do not bind correctly and they make a product called D-T4, L-T4 is the naturally occuring T4 that the body uses, D-T4 is essiantialy a mirror image of L-T4. What happens is that all the molecules bind in the exact opposite way that it does with L-T4. What happens is that the only thyroid hormone receptors that can use this T4 are in the hypothyalimus and pituartary. These are the receptors that shut off TSH production. The amount of D-T4 contamination is kept to a minimum of less than 2% but it is still very possible that the samll amounts of D-T4 in the meds will cause your TSH to come down quicker than it should. D-T4 is actually a medication used in the treatment of people who are hyper because they have a tumor on their pituaritary that secretes TSH, what D-T4 does is lower the TSH without affecting the rest of the body, look up choloxin(sp?). See I am still nuts!!!!!!LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 > Okay...what exactly did this say? I didn't see anything about TSH suppression in there, i did read it quite quickly though. I think the conclusion says it all, thyroid hormone treatment is far from straight foreward as they once thought espically with some new findings they have made. I espically like table 1 where they broke down quite specifically the reasons of why a normal TSH means nearly nothing about how the body is useing the hormone. There is also some very damning evidence for the idiot T4 only docs that do nothing but TSH and T4 tests, free or total, to monitor their patients. Basically it is just saying that they are not as advanced with treatment as they perceieve to be. Now if you remeber me Cindi you know my thought process does not exactly follow theirs. As much as I like to see a paper like this come out there are still two ideas that have never been talked about, not even by some of the good docs we all would like to get treated by. I first have to explain something......there has been some convincing work done on how the system will chgange to compensate for hypothyroidism, some of them are discussed in this paper. Basically all of them have to do with hormone ratios and changes in enzyme levels so that the body can keep the the hormone coming but still operate quite efficanciletaly on lower amounts of it. The first area they just skip over logical thought is in the actual amount the thyropid can secrete, this is espically important with hashi's. We both know that ultimately the thyroid is loseing its ability to produce hormone the way it should be. What I think happens in some people that are kept in normal TSH range is that if there is still TSH in the blood then the thyroid is being told to produce hormone. Depending on how bad the thyroid has been damaged by the antibodies it is very possible that what it could produce at a TSH of 1 when it was healthy it cannot produce that same amount any longer with that same TSH. Now the other area that no one has touched yet is with the T4 meds themselves. What happens when they make T4 in the lab is that not all the hormone is made correctly. What happens is that some of the molecules do not bind correctly and they make a product called D-T4, L-T4 is the naturally occuring T4 that the body uses, D-T4 is essiantialy a mirror image of L-T4. What happens is that all the molecules bind in the exact opposite way that it does with L-T4. What happens is that the only thyroid hormone receptors that can use this T4 are in the hypothyalimus and pituartary. These are the receptors that shut off TSH production. The amount of D-T4 contamination is kept to a minimum of less than 2% but it is still very possible that the samll amounts of D-T4 in the meds will cause your TSH to come down quicker than it should. D-T4 is actually a medication used in the treatment of people who are hyper because they have a tumor on their pituaritary that secretes TSH, what D-T4 does is lower the TSH without affecting the rest of the body, look up choloxin(sp?). See I am still nuts!!!!!!LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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