Re: Using ice on face

[Guest guest]

I spray ice water on my face and it really relieves the redness

and " burning " (although I experience a mild burning sensation, much

like when you open an oven and the warm heat touches your skin). I

don't think ice directly on the face is a good idea, since too much

of anything can cause irritation on a rosacea face, at least that is

my experience. I haven't read Dr. Nase's book, so I can't help you

on that department.

Hope this helps!

Eliza

> Several people on this board have discussed using icepacks for

facial

> burning.

>

> In Dr. Nase's book, he discourages " freezing " the face ...

unfortunately I can't

> find the page because there's no index in his book, but I

distinctly recall Nase

> using the term " freezing. " Is this the same as applying ice? What

is the

> current wisdom on this?

>

> BTW, is Dr. Nase still practicing? Does he respond to e-mails at

his web site?

>

> Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I spray ice water on my face and it really relieves the redness

and " burning " (although I experience a mild burning sensation, much

like when you open an oven and the warm heat touches your skin). I

don't think ice directly on the face is a good idea, since too much

of anything can cause irritation on a rosacea face, at least that is

my experience. I haven't read Dr. Nase's book, so I can't help you

on that department.

Hope this helps!

Eliza

> Several people on this board have discussed using icepacks for

facial

> burning.

>

> In Dr. Nase's book, he discourages " freezing " the face ...

unfortunately I can't

> find the page because there's no index in his book, but I

distinctly recall Nase

> using the term " freezing. " Is this the same as applying ice? What

is the

> current wisdom on this?

>

> BTW, is Dr. Nase still practicing? Does he respond to e-mails at

his web site?

>

> Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I spray ice water on my face and it really relieves the redness

and " burning " (although I experience a mild burning sensation, much

like when you open an oven and the warm heat touches your skin). I

don't think ice directly on the face is a good idea, since too much

of anything can cause irritation on a rosacea face, at least that is

my experience. I haven't read Dr. Nase's book, so I can't help you

on that department.

Hope this helps!

Eliza

> Several people on this board have discussed using icepacks for

facial

> burning.

>

> In Dr. Nase's book, he discourages " freezing " the face ...

unfortunately I can't

> find the page because there's no index in his book, but I

distinctly recall Nase

> using the term " freezing. " Is this the same as applying ice? What

is the

> current wisdom on this?

>

> BTW, is Dr. Nase still practicing? Does he respond to e-mails at

his web site?

>

> Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I agree, Eliza, ice on the face can be traumatic to the skin. The

basic rule of thumb (so to speak ) is that the temperature applied

to any injured part of the body should be as comfortable as if

applied to the fingertips (assuming normal sensation) for the same

amount of time. For example, if you're going to apply something cold

to the face for five minutes, you should be able to comfortably hold

it in your hand for the same length of time. When applied properly,

cool temperatures are as effective as cold, and far less traumatic.

Spraying ice water on the face sounds refreshing, but remember that

water itself is a mild irritant to the face. Also, using water means

reapplying sunblock and/or moisturizer which means more facial

manipulation, when the goal is to keep as few things off the face as

possible. Finally, the goal is not just momentary cooling, but at

least 10 minutes of constant cooling. That's a lot of respraying.

It's less convenient than a spray bottle in some situations, but

here's a possible alternative: in the ER, we use those refreezable

ammonium nitrate ice packs for acute inflammation or injury. They are

generally safe when applied directly to the skin on the insulated

side. New ammonium nitrate packs can be kept at room temperature

(they are activated by breaking the inner packet seal), then can be

reused after about 20 minutes in the refrig.

Even if just a portion of the face is flushing, I would recommend a

large enough pack to cover, or other mechanism to cool, the entire

central portion of the face. The goal is to both decrease

neurosensory sensitivity but also divert blood flow away from the

entire central face (rather than redistribute it to the forehead or

chin). I would also recommend maintaining the cool temperature for 10-

20 minutes, to give the outside temperature time to fully equilibrate

with the skin and lower structures. (If the pack feels too cold at

first, so try putting it in a pillow case, which can provide one or

three insulating layers of cotton.) After 10-20 minutes, remove the

pack or stop spraying or whatever is being used, and rest the face

for an equivalent 10-20 minutes, then decide if you need to reapply

for another 10-20 minutes.

Has anyone tried prophylactic cooling (for example, 10 minutes with

an ammonium nitrate pack before exercising?) Theoretically, it makes

sense to divert blood flow away from the face beforehand, but I don't

know if it has practical benefits.

Also, has anyone tried the personal cooling device that applies cool

aluminum plates against the sides of the neck. I've seen it sold by

Sharper Image

(http://www.sharperimage.com/us/en/catalog/productview.jhtml?

pid=26726800&pcatid=1&catid=112). I've not seen or tested one, but I

assume it cools the blood flowing up the external carotid arteries on

either side of the neck, which is destined for the face. I don't know

if it works, but it theoretically might help deter flushing if worn

when exercising, cooking, or when driving to an appointment or date

or something, or even as one feels one's face getting red. Once the

flush is in full force, I don't believe devices like this would help,

although they might shorten the course. I don't know.

Not recommendations, just some thoughts.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> > Several people on this board have discussed using icepacks for

> facial

> > burning.

> >

> > In Dr. Nase's book, he discourages " freezing " the face ...

> unfortunately I can't

> > find the page because there's no index in his book, but I

> distinctly recall Nase

> > using the term " freezing. " Is this the same as applying ice? What

> is the

> > current wisdom on this?

> >

> > BTW, is Dr. Nase still practicing? Does he respond to e-mails at

> his web site?

> >

> > Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I agree, Eliza, ice on the face can be traumatic to the skin. The

basic rule of thumb (so to speak ) is that the temperature applied

to any injured part of the body should be as comfortable as if

applied to the fingertips (assuming normal sensation) for the same

amount of time. For example, if you're going to apply something cold

to the face for five minutes, you should be able to comfortably hold

it in your hand for the same length of time. When applied properly,

cool temperatures are as effective as cold, and far less traumatic.

Spraying ice water on the face sounds refreshing, but remember that

water itself is a mild irritant to the face. Also, using water means

reapplying sunblock and/or moisturizer which means more facial

manipulation, when the goal is to keep as few things off the face as

possible. Finally, the goal is not just momentary cooling, but at

least 10 minutes of constant cooling. That's a lot of respraying.

It's less convenient than a spray bottle in some situations, but

here's a possible alternative: in the ER, we use those refreezable

ammonium nitrate ice packs for acute inflammation or injury. They are

generally safe when applied directly to the skin on the insulated

side. New ammonium nitrate packs can be kept at room temperature

(they are activated by breaking the inner packet seal), then can be

reused after about 20 minutes in the refrig.

Even if just a portion of the face is flushing, I would recommend a

large enough pack to cover, or other mechanism to cool, the entire

central portion of the face. The goal is to both decrease

neurosensory sensitivity but also divert blood flow away from the

entire central face (rather than redistribute it to the forehead or

chin). I would also recommend maintaining the cool temperature for 10-

20 minutes, to give the outside temperature time to fully equilibrate

with the skin and lower structures. (If the pack feels too cold at

first, so try putting it in a pillow case, which can provide one or

three insulating layers of cotton.) After 10-20 minutes, remove the

pack or stop spraying or whatever is being used, and rest the face

for an equivalent 10-20 minutes, then decide if you need to reapply

for another 10-20 minutes.

Has anyone tried prophylactic cooling (for example, 10 minutes with

an ammonium nitrate pack before exercising?) Theoretically, it makes

sense to divert blood flow away from the face beforehand, but I don't

know if it has practical benefits.

Also, has anyone tried the personal cooling device that applies cool

aluminum plates against the sides of the neck. I've seen it sold by

Sharper Image

(http://www.sharperimage.com/us/en/catalog/productview.jhtml?

pid=26726800&pcatid=1&catid=112). I've not seen or tested one, but I

assume it cools the blood flowing up the external carotid arteries on

either side of the neck, which is destined for the face. I don't know

if it works, but it theoretically might help deter flushing if worn

when exercising, cooking, or when driving to an appointment or date

or something, or even as one feels one's face getting red. Once the

flush is in full force, I don't believe devices like this would help,

although they might shorten the course. I don't know.

Not recommendations, just some thoughts.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> > Several people on this board have discussed using icepacks for

> facial

> > burning.

> >

> > In Dr. Nase's book, he discourages " freezing " the face ...

> unfortunately I can't

> > find the page because there's no index in his book, but I

> distinctly recall Nase

> > using the term " freezing. " Is this the same as applying ice? What

> is the

> > current wisdom on this?

> >

> > BTW, is Dr. Nase still practicing? Does he respond to e-mails at

> his web site?

> >

> > Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I agree, Eliza, ice on the face can be traumatic to the skin. The

basic rule of thumb (so to speak ) is that the temperature applied

to any injured part of the body should be as comfortable as if

applied to the fingertips (assuming normal sensation) for the same

amount of time. For example, if you're going to apply something cold

to the face for five minutes, you should be able to comfortably hold

it in your hand for the same length of time. When applied properly,

cool temperatures are as effective as cold, and far less traumatic.

Spraying ice water on the face sounds refreshing, but remember that

water itself is a mild irritant to the face. Also, using water means

reapplying sunblock and/or moisturizer which means more facial

manipulation, when the goal is to keep as few things off the face as

possible. Finally, the goal is not just momentary cooling, but at

least 10 minutes of constant cooling. That's a lot of respraying.

It's less convenient than a spray bottle in some situations, but

here's a possible alternative: in the ER, we use those refreezable

ammonium nitrate ice packs for acute inflammation or injury. They are

generally safe when applied directly to the skin on the insulated

side. New ammonium nitrate packs can be kept at room temperature

(they are activated by breaking the inner packet seal), then can be

reused after about 20 minutes in the refrig.

Even if just a portion of the face is flushing, I would recommend a

large enough pack to cover, or other mechanism to cool, the entire

central portion of the face. The goal is to both decrease

neurosensory sensitivity but also divert blood flow away from the

entire central face (rather than redistribute it to the forehead or

chin). I would also recommend maintaining the cool temperature for 10-

20 minutes, to give the outside temperature time to fully equilibrate

with the skin and lower structures. (If the pack feels too cold at

first, so try putting it in a pillow case, which can provide one or

three insulating layers of cotton.) After 10-20 minutes, remove the

pack or stop spraying or whatever is being used, and rest the face

for an equivalent 10-20 minutes, then decide if you need to reapply

for another 10-20 minutes.

Has anyone tried prophylactic cooling (for example, 10 minutes with

an ammonium nitrate pack before exercising?) Theoretically, it makes

sense to divert blood flow away from the face beforehand, but I don't

know if it has practical benefits.

Also, has anyone tried the personal cooling device that applies cool

aluminum plates against the sides of the neck. I've seen it sold by

Sharper Image

(http://www.sharperimage.com/us/en/catalog/productview.jhtml?

pid=26726800&pcatid=1&catid=112). I've not seen or tested one, but I

assume it cools the blood flowing up the external carotid arteries on

either side of the neck, which is destined for the face. I don't know

if it works, but it theoretically might help deter flushing if worn

when exercising, cooking, or when driving to an appointment or date

or something, or even as one feels one's face getting red. Once the

flush is in full force, I don't believe devices like this would help,

although they might shorten the course. I don't know.

Not recommendations, just some thoughts.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> > Several people on this board have discussed using icepacks for

> facial

> > burning.

> >

> > In Dr. Nase's book, he discourages " freezing " the face ...

> unfortunately I can't

> > find the page because there's no index in his book, but I

> distinctly recall Nase

> > using the term " freezing. " Is this the same as applying ice? What

> is the

> > current wisdom on this?

> >

> > BTW, is Dr. Nase still practicing? Does he respond to e-mails at

> his web site?

> >

> > Thanks.

[Guest guest]

> Has anyone tried applying " normal saline " to the skin? It's

> isotonic with blood and body fluids, so I wonder if it might be

> less stressful to the skin. On the other hand some ceans might

> be sensitive to the salt present - 0.9% sodium chloride.

I don't know, but I wouldn't think the irritant nature of water is

due to its hypotonicity. An intact epidermis is a physical barrier

protecting the cells underneath; the skin cells on the top are dead,

even if there's inflammation, so there are no exposed living cells

that would require an isotonic environment (are there?) Normal saline

is used for wound irrigation because it's isotonic, that's true, but

that's because it is exposed directly to living cells.

Something somewhat related that I've been thinking about: the skin

surface has an acid mantle that helps maintain skin integrity and

function. I wonder how many of our favorite cleansers and

moisturizers respect that, by having an appropriately acidic pH. Or

maybe the pH of a product isn't important? Or maybe chronically

inflamed and/or flushed skin has different pH needs?

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

> Has anyone tried applying " normal saline " to the skin? It's

> isotonic with blood and body fluids, so I wonder if it might be

> less stressful to the skin. On the other hand some ceans might

> be sensitive to the salt present - 0.9% sodium chloride.

I don't know, but I wouldn't think the irritant nature of water is

due to its hypotonicity. An intact epidermis is a physical barrier

protecting the cells underneath; the skin cells on the top are dead,

even if there's inflammation, so there are no exposed living cells

that would require an isotonic environment (are there?) Normal saline

is used for wound irrigation because it's isotonic, that's true, but

that's because it is exposed directly to living cells.

Something somewhat related that I've been thinking about: the skin

surface has an acid mantle that helps maintain skin integrity and

function. I wonder how many of our favorite cleansers and

moisturizers respect that, by having an appropriately acidic pH. Or

maybe the pH of a product isn't important? Or maybe chronically

inflamed and/or flushed skin has different pH needs?

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

> Has anyone tried applying " normal saline " to the skin? It's

> isotonic with blood and body fluids, so I wonder if it might be

> less stressful to the skin. On the other hand some ceans might

> be sensitive to the salt present - 0.9% sodium chloride.

I don't know, but I wouldn't think the irritant nature of water is

due to its hypotonicity. An intact epidermis is a physical barrier

protecting the cells underneath; the skin cells on the top are dead,

even if there's inflammation, so there are no exposed living cells

that would require an isotonic environment (are there?) Normal saline

is used for wound irrigation because it's isotonic, that's true, but

that's because it is exposed directly to living cells.

Something somewhat related that I've been thinking about: the skin

surface has an acid mantle that helps maintain skin integrity and

function. I wonder how many of our favorite cleansers and

moisturizers respect that, by having an appropriately acidic pH. Or

maybe the pH of a product isn't important? Or maybe chronically

inflamed and/or flushed skin has different pH needs?

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

Marjorie,

What about chlorine and other chemicals in tap water. Couldn't they

irritate the already sensitive skin of rosaceans, too?

Take care,

Matija

> > Has anyone tried applying " normal saline " to the skin? It's

> > isotonic with blood and body fluids, so I wonder if it might be

> > less stressful to the skin. On the other hand some ceans

might

> > be sensitive to the salt present - 0.9% sodium chloride.

>

> I don't know, but I wouldn't think the irritant nature of water is

> due to its hypotonicity. An intact epidermis is a physical barrier

> protecting the cells underneath; the skin cells on the top are

dead,

> even if there's inflammation, so there are no exposed living cells

> that would require an isotonic environment (are there?) Normal

saline

> is used for wound irrigation because it's isotonic, that's true,

but

> that's because it is exposed directly to living cells.

>

> Something somewhat related that I've been thinking about: the skin

> surface has an acid mantle that helps maintain skin integrity and

> function. I wonder how many of our favorite cleansers and

> moisturizers respect that, by having an appropriately acidic pH. Or

> maybe the pH of a product isn't important? Or maybe chronically

> inflamed and/or flushed skin has different pH needs?

>

> Marjorie

>

> Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

> The most wonderful relief I've ever had was at the derms office

about 15

> years ago. I had a " flush attack " and the nurse used the stuff in

the flask

> that they " freeze " moles and such with. She set the nozzle on a

really wide

> fan and then just barely cracked the knob open. I tried to take

the bottle

> home but she wouldn't let me. She said she used it when she had hot

> flashes.

, if it was silver nitrate, wouldn't your face cracked off?

Seriously, I suspect she used a type of local anesthetic spray

that " freezes " the skin temporarily prior to needlestick. I don't

know what it's called (I'm sure " that freezing stuff, " isn't its

official name ). Its active ingredient is ethyl chloride, which is

extraordinarily flammable; by law, in the ER it has to be stored in a

special place. Its effects are shortlived -- once the skin is

prepared, the needlestick needs to be given within 5 seconds. When

working, it leaves a white substance that near-immediately

dissipates; by the time the white is gone, so is the effect. I use it

only on normal epidermis below the neck since overuse can cause

blistering and other burning-type skin reactions. I can't imagine

what torture would result if it accidently got into the eyes. But

normally the spray nozzle is very narrow, because the spray is

directed at the anticipated needlestick point.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

> What about chlorine and other chemicals in tap water. Couldn't they

> irritate the already sensitive skin of rosaceans, too?

Sure, Matija. But pure water itself can also be a direct irritant.

Marjorie

[Guest guest]

> What about chlorine and other chemicals in tap water. Couldn't they

> irritate the already sensitive skin of rosaceans, too?

Sure, Matija. But pure water itself can also be a direct irritant.

Marjorie

[Guest guest]

> What about chlorine and other chemicals in tap water. Couldn't they

> irritate the already sensitive skin of rosaceans, too?

Sure, Matija. But pure water itself can also be a direct irritant.

Marjorie

[Guest guest]

was it liquid Nitrogen?

>

> > The most wonderful relief I've ever had was at the derms office

> about 15

> > years ago. I had a " flush attack " and the nurse used the stuff

in

> the flask

> > that they " freeze " moles and such with. She set the nozzle on a

> really wide

> > fan and then just barely cracked the knob open. I tried to take

> the bottle

> > home but she wouldn't let me. She said she used it when she had

hot

> > flashes.

>

> , if it was silver nitrate, wouldn't your face cracked off?

>

> Seriously, I suspect she used a type of local anesthetic spray

> that " freezes " the skin temporarily prior to needlestick. I don't

> know what it's called (I'm sure " that freezing stuff, " isn't its

> official name ). Its active ingredient is ethyl chloride, which

is

> extraordinarily flammable; by law, in the ER it has to be stored in

a

> special place. Its effects are shortlived -- once the skin is

> prepared, the needlestick needs to be given within 5 seconds. When

> working, it leaves a white substance that near-immediately

> dissipates; by the time the white is gone, so is the effect. I use

it

> only on normal epidermis below the neck since overuse can cause

> blistering and other burning-type skin reactions. I can't imagine

> what torture would result if it accidently got into the eyes. But

> normally the spray nozzle is very narrow, because the spray is

> directed at the anticipated needlestick point.

>

> Marjorie

>

> Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

was it liquid Nitrogen?

>

> > The most wonderful relief I've ever had was at the derms office

> about 15

> > years ago. I had a " flush attack " and the nurse used the stuff

in

> the flask

> > that they " freeze " moles and such with. She set the nozzle on a

> really wide

> > fan and then just barely cracked the knob open. I tried to take

> the bottle

> > home but she wouldn't let me. She said she used it when she had

hot

> > flashes.

>

> , if it was silver nitrate, wouldn't your face cracked off?

>

> Seriously, I suspect she used a type of local anesthetic spray

> that " freezes " the skin temporarily prior to needlestick. I don't

> know what it's called (I'm sure " that freezing stuff, " isn't its

> official name ). Its active ingredient is ethyl chloride, which

is

> extraordinarily flammable; by law, in the ER it has to be stored in

a

> special place. Its effects are shortlived -- once the skin is

> prepared, the needlestick needs to be given within 5 seconds. When

> working, it leaves a white substance that near-immediately

> dissipates; by the time the white is gone, so is the effect. I use

it

> only on normal epidermis below the neck since overuse can cause

> blistering and other burning-type skin reactions. I can't imagine

> what torture would result if it accidently got into the eyes. But

> normally the spray nozzle is very narrow, because the spray is

> directed at the anticipated needlestick point.

>

> Marjorie

>

> Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

was it liquid Nitrogen?

>

> > The most wonderful relief I've ever had was at the derms office

> about 15

> > years ago. I had a " flush attack " and the nurse used the stuff

in

> the flask

> > that they " freeze " moles and such with. She set the nozzle on a

> really wide

> > fan and then just barely cracked the knob open. I tried to take

> the bottle

> > home but she wouldn't let me. She said she used it when she had

hot

> > flashes.

>

> , if it was silver nitrate, wouldn't your face cracked off?

>

> Seriously, I suspect she used a type of local anesthetic spray

> that " freezes " the skin temporarily prior to needlestick. I don't

> know what it's called (I'm sure " that freezing stuff, " isn't its

> official name ). Its active ingredient is ethyl chloride, which

is

> extraordinarily flammable; by law, in the ER it has to be stored in

a

> special place. Its effects are shortlived -- once the skin is

> prepared, the needlestick needs to be given within 5 seconds. When

> working, it leaves a white substance that near-immediately

> dissipates; by the time the white is gone, so is the effect. I use

it

> only on normal epidermis below the neck since overuse can cause

> blistering and other burning-type skin reactions. I can't imagine

> what torture would result if it accidently got into the eyes. But

> normally the spray nozzle is very narrow, because the spray is

> directed at the anticipated needlestick point.

>

> Marjorie

>

> Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

> was it liquid Nitrogen?

Of course -- not silver nitrate. Thanks.

Marjorie

[Guest guest]

> was it liquid Nitrogen?

Of course -- not silver nitrate. Thanks.

Marjorie

[Guest guest]

> was it liquid Nitrogen?

Of course -- not silver nitrate. Thanks.

Marjorie

[Guest guest]

Yes, I often rinse my face with the same saline solution I use for my

contacts. I experience no irritation whatsoever and, in fact, I find

it soothing, particularly when my skin is itchy or irritated. Many

on this site have used Dead Sea Salts without irritation. I find

neither those nor regular saline solution irritating.

> Re: Using ice on face

>

>

>

> Spraying ice water on the face sounds refreshing, but remember that

> water itself is a mild irritant to the face.

>

>

>

>

>

> Has anyone tried applying " normal saline " to the skin? It's

isotonic with

> blood and body fluids, so I wonder if it might be less stressful to

the

> skin. On the other hand some ceans might be sensitive to the

salt

> present - 0.9% sodium chloride.

>

> Barry