Re: Immune System (quote from Nase book)

May 20, 2002

, I find these references confusing. In particular, the

abstract to the second reference doesn't support what's Dr. Nase's

saying.

The statistics described in the study are confusing, but at a minumum

the authors found that 12 of the study's 24 rosaceans had tissue

biopsy evidence of altered immune function, and 6 of the 24 had

laboratory evidence of auto-immunity (remember, evidence of

autoantibodies isn't enough to call a condition auto-immune). The

abstract doesn't say how many of the controls had similiar findings,

but Dr. Nase's " ...The average rosacea sufferer has a perfectly

health immune system. " contradicts the authors' closing

statement, " It is suggested that altered immune function plays a

significant role in the pathogenesis of the disease.

That study is published in a respected journal but it's 20 years old -

- frankly, that's just too old to reference in this area, whatever

the study found or didn't find. And the first reference comes from a

15 year old Proceedings. A proceeding is a short, non-peer-reviewed

entry or presentation for a specific conference (each conference puts

out its own Proceeding). Proceedings are used to keep everyone

abreast of completed research during the year or two it takes for the

study to be officially published in peer-review journal. Proceedings

that are 1-3 years old are credible references, but referencing a 15

year old Proceeding doesn't carry the same credibility.

Here's the second abstract. It does support what we've been talking

about -- rosacea has features of a primary immune-mediated condition,

and there is an association between rosacea and other auto-immune

disorders:

Br J Dermatol 1982 Aug;107(2):203-8

Involvement of immune mechanisms in the pathogenesis of rosacea.

Manna V, Marks R, Holt P.

Twenty-five patients with rosacea were compared with twenty-five

control subjects for previous medical history and tests of immune

function. cea patients were found to have a higher incidence of

disorders of the auto-immune type and were significantly more

difficult to sensitize to DNCB than the controls. In addition, twelve

of the rosacea patients and eleven other rosacea patients had

biopsies which were examined by the direct immunofluorescence

technique. In only five was the test negative. In the remainder

deposits of IgM and/or IgG and/or complement were found at the dermo-

epidermal junction and/or in the dermal collagen. Serum from the

rosacea patients was also examined by the indirect technique and in

six cases a circulating antinuclear antibody of IgM type was found.

It is suggested that altered immune function plays a significant role

in the pathogenesis of the disease.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> Hi,

>

> While we're on the topic of rosacea / auto-immune disease, there is

a

> snippet in Dr. Nase's book (http://www.drnase.com) on page 93 which

> gives the flip-side of the coin. I'll quote the main point here.

>

> " It is important for rosacea sufferers and general physicians to

> understand that rosacea is _NOT_ an auto-immune disease (242,

243).

> The immune system does _NOT_ produce antibodies or

> specifically " attack " the facial skin and blood vessels. The

average

> rosacea sufferer has a perfectly health immune system. (242, 243)

>

> [emphasis in book is bold and underlined lower-case where I have

used

> _THIS_ format]

>

> The references are as follows:

>

> 242: Marks, R. " cea: hopeless hypotheses, marvellous myths and

> dermal disorganisation " . In: Proceedings of an international

> symposium, Cardiff, edited by R. Marks and G. Plewid. Cardiff:

> Dunitz Ltd, 1988, p.293-299

>

> 243: Manna, V., R. Marks, and P. Hold. Involvement of immune

> mechanisms in the pathogenesis of rosacea. Br J Dermatol 107:203-

> 208, 1982

>

> .

May 20, 2002

Dr. Lazoff,

Thanks very much for this post. I'm probably one of the biggest supporters

of Dr. Nase's book around (as far as I'm concerned it blows away anything

else I've ever read on the subject of cea) but I've never been

particularly excited about his section where he rules out alot of various

disorders that seem like they play a part in cea. And I have to say

this made alot more sense than what I read in his book.

I'm curious though, when the abstract says:

" In the remainder, deposits of IgM and/or IgG and/or complement were found

at the dermo-

epidermal junction and/or in the dermal collagen. Serum from the

rosacea patients was also examined by the indirect technique and in

six cases a circulating antinuclear antibody of IgM type was found "

Isnt this what is found when they test for sub-clinical food intolerances,

or am I confusing it with IgE or Igsomethingelse? Dietary alterations seem

to be at least as effective in many people as the leading prescription

drugs.. wouldn't it be funny if all cea was is a type of food

intolerance? Like Lactose Intolerance only different?

P.S. My take when I read Dr. Nase's book on this part (although I must

admit I was a little confused myself) when he said that most cea

sufferers have perfectly healthy immune systems, he meant that cea was

not some type of Lupus-like auto-immune disorder, but he didn't say that

cea sufferers didn't have any type of immune-mediated involvement at all

(I dont think) Or I guess there's the possibility that the book was just

flat-out wrong on this point.

Re: Immune System (quote from Nase book)

>

> , I find these references confusing. In particular, the

> abstract to the second reference doesn't support what's Dr. Nase's

> saying.

>

> The statistics described in the study are confusing, but at a minumum

> the authors found that 12 of the study's 24 rosaceans had tissue

> biopsy evidence of altered immune function, and 6 of the 24 had

> laboratory evidence of auto-immunity (remember, evidence of

> autoantibodies isn't enough to call a condition auto-immune). The

> abstract doesn't say how many of the controls had similiar findings,

> but Dr. Nase's " ...The average rosacea sufferer has a perfectly

> health immune system. " contradicts the authors' closing

> statement, " It is suggested that altered immune function plays a

> significant role in the pathogenesis of the disease.

>

> That study is published in a respected journal but it's 20 years old -

> - frankly, that's just too old to reference in this area, whatever

> the study found or didn't find. And the first reference comes from a

> 15 year old Proceedings. A proceeding is a short, non-peer-reviewed

> entry or presentation for a specific conference (each conference puts

> out its own Proceeding). Proceedings are used to keep everyone

> abreast of completed research during the year or two it takes for the

> study to be officially published in peer-review journal. Proceedings

> that are 1-3 years old are credible references, but referencing a 15

> year old Proceeding doesn't carry the same credibility.

>

> Here's the second abstract. It does support what we've been talking

> about -- rosacea has features of a primary immune-mediated condition,

> and there is an association between rosacea and other auto-immune

> disorders:

>

> Br J Dermatol 1982 Aug;107(2):203-8

>

> Involvement of immune mechanisms in the pathogenesis of rosacea.

>

> Manna V, Marks R, Holt P.

>

> Twenty-five patients with rosacea were compared with twenty-five

> control subjects for previous medical history and tests of immune

> function. cea patients were found to have a higher incidence of

> disorders of the auto-immune type and were significantly more

> difficult to sensitize to DNCB than the controls. In addition, twelve

> of the rosacea patients and eleven other rosacea patients had

> biopsies which were examined by the direct immunofluorescence

> technique. In only five was the test negative. In the remainder

> deposits of IgM and/or IgG and/or complement were found at the dermo-

> epidermal junction and/or in the dermal collagen. Serum from the

> rosacea patients was also examined by the indirect technique and in

> six cases a circulating antinuclear antibody of IgM type was found.

> It is suggested that altered immune function plays a significant role

> in the pathogenesis of the disease.

>

> Marjorie

>

> Marjorie Lazoff, MD

>

> > Hi,

> >

> > While we're on the topic of rosacea / auto-immune disease, there is

> a

> > snippet in Dr. Nase's book (http://www.drnase.com) on page 93 which

> > gives the flip-side of the coin. I'll quote the main point here.

> >

> > " It is important for rosacea sufferers and general physicians to

> > understand that rosacea is _NOT_ an auto-immune disease (242,

> 243).

> > The immune system does _NOT_ produce antibodies or

> > specifically " attack " the facial skin and blood vessels. The

> average

> > rosacea sufferer has a perfectly health immune system. (242, 243)

> >

> > [emphasis in book is bold and underlined lower-case where I have

> used

> > _THIS_ format]

> >

> > The references are as follows:

> >

> > 242: Marks, R. " cea: hopeless hypotheses, marvellous myths and

> > dermal disorganisation " . In: Proceedings of an international

> > symposium, Cardiff, edited by R. Marks and G. Plewid. Cardiff:

>

> > Dunitz Ltd, 1988, p.293-299

> >

> > 243: Manna, V., R. Marks, and P. Hold. Involvement of immune

> > mechanisms in the pathogenesis of rosacea. Br J Dermatol 107:203-

> > 208, 1982

> >

> > .

>

> --

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>

> See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

>

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May 20, 2002