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Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments

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Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well

be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or

imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic

science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities

as well.

I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime

a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

compared to another good theory.

Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily

a vascular disorder.

Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin

to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems -

- your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being

stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep

or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work --

and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

disorder.

A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was

something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules

would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary

vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory

agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules

but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or

problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

from others to account for these difference, for example.

But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this,

some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

sytem.

Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people,

but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to

immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other

factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder

also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co-

pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but

may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not*

be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many

people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well

be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or

imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic

science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities

as well.

I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime

a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

compared to another good theory.

Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily

a vascular disorder.

Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin

to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems -

- your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being

stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep

or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work --

and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

disorder.

A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was

something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules

would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary

vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory

agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules

but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or

problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

from others to account for these difference, for example.

But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this,

some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

sytem.

Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people,

but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to

immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other

factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder

also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co-

pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but

may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not*

be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many

people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well

be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or

imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic

science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities

as well.

I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime

a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

compared to another good theory.

Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily

a vascular disorder.

Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin

to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems -

- your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being

stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep

or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work --

and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

disorder.

A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was

something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules

would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary

vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory

agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules

but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or

problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

from others to account for these difference, for example.

But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this,

some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

sytem.

Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people,

but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to

immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other

factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder

also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co-

pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but

may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not*

be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many

people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

This theory really interests me. My earliest symptom of rosacea was

telangiectasia. I had it (them?) for years before any other symptoms. My

mother had them also, as a result of the scleroderma she had, an auto-immune

disease which eventually killed her. When she saw my skin she became worried

that I was in the early stages of scleroderma. I have wondered whether they

indicate that I have some auto-immune involvement.

Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments

Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well

be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or

imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic

science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities

as well.

I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime

a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

compared to another good theory.

Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily

a vascular disorder.

Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin

to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems -

- your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being

stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep

or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work --

and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

disorder.

A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was

something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules

would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary

vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory

agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules

but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or

problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

from others to account for these difference, for example.

But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this,

some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

sytem.

Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people,

but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to

immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other

factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder

also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co-

pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but

may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not*

be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many

people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

--

Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't give a

meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the subject when

replying to a digest !

See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

This theory really interests me. My earliest symptom of rosacea was

telangiectasia. I had it (them?) for years before any other symptoms. My

mother had them also, as a result of the scleroderma she had, an auto-immune

disease which eventually killed her. When she saw my skin she became worried

that I was in the early stages of scleroderma. I have wondered whether they

indicate that I have some auto-immune involvement.

Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments

Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well

be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or

imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic

science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities

as well.

I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime

a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

compared to another good theory.

Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily

a vascular disorder.

Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin

to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems -

- your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being

stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep

or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work --

and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

disorder.

A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was

something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules

would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary

vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory

agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules

but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or

problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

from others to account for these difference, for example.

But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this,

some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

sytem.

Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people,

but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to

immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other

factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder

also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co-

pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but

may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not*

be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many

people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

--

Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't give a

meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the subject when

replying to a digest !

See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

This theory really interests me. My earliest symptom of rosacea was

telangiectasia. I had it (them?) for years before any other symptoms. My

mother had them also, as a result of the scleroderma she had, an auto-immune

disease which eventually killed her. When she saw my skin she became worried

that I was in the early stages of scleroderma. I have wondered whether they

indicate that I have some auto-immune involvement.

Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments

Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well

be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or

imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic

science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities

as well.

I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime

a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

compared to another good theory.

Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily

a vascular disorder.

Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin

to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems -

- your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being

stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep

or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work --

and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

disorder.

A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was

something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules

would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary

vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory

agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules

but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or

problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

from others to account for these difference, for example.

But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this,

some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

sytem.

Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people,

but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to

immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other

factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder

also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co-

pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but

may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not*

be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many

people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

--

Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't give a

meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the subject when

replying to a digest !

See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe

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I corresponded with Ethan a while ago on his work. Here is one of

his responses:

----------------------------------------------------

Reply to: Re: rosacea and nitric oxide

Rick,

I am catching up on lots of things so here goes: First, thank you for

the information. Could you direct me to a couple of the internet

forums that are discussing nitric oxide and rosacea? There are

several

issues with regard to how effective a molecule may be in therapy of

rosacea, or facial redness for that matter. These include:

1) Does the molecule get through the skin?

2) How much gets through?

3) Is it altered as a result?

4) is the altered version active?

5) How potent an inhibitor of the enzyme nitric oxide synthase is the

molecule?

6) There are several different forms of the enzyme. Are they all

important?

7) Does the molecule work on all of only one form of the enzyme?

8) How much of the enzyme is made?

9) If a lot is made, how often does the inhibitor need to be applied?

10) If the inhibitor works will it start a cycle such that more

enzyme

is made to compensate and thus make the redness worse?

11) What happens if you stop applying the inhibitor - will the

redness

get markedly worse?

12) Are there either local or systemic side effects?

13) How effective is laser doppler in evaluating blood flow in people

with rosacea - how critical is it to have the probe in the 'right'

place?

14) Is the theory that NO is involved correct?

Regarding the specific molecule in which we are interested, L-NAME,

it

is 'reasonably' active against all forms of the enzyme. The 'E "

stands

for ester and these molecules usually get through the skin fairly

well. At the same time, once through, esters are often cleaved, which

may be OK here as the molecule may still be active. We would like to

lable the molecule with 14-Carbon to make it radioactive (which costs

about $10,000) and then test it in a human skin model (excess skin

from surgery) to see how much gets through ($15,000).

That's were we are.

EAL

--------------------------------------------------------------------

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Guest guest

I corresponded with Ethan a while ago on his work. Here is one of

his responses:

----------------------------------------------------

Reply to: Re: rosacea and nitric oxide

Rick,

I am catching up on lots of things so here goes: First, thank you for

the information. Could you direct me to a couple of the internet

forums that are discussing nitric oxide and rosacea? There are

several

issues with regard to how effective a molecule may be in therapy of

rosacea, or facial redness for that matter. These include:

1) Does the molecule get through the skin?

2) How much gets through?

3) Is it altered as a result?

4) is the altered version active?

5) How potent an inhibitor of the enzyme nitric oxide synthase is the

molecule?

6) There are several different forms of the enzyme. Are they all

important?

7) Does the molecule work on all of only one form of the enzyme?

8) How much of the enzyme is made?

9) If a lot is made, how often does the inhibitor need to be applied?

10) If the inhibitor works will it start a cycle such that more

enzyme

is made to compensate and thus make the redness worse?

11) What happens if you stop applying the inhibitor - will the

redness

get markedly worse?

12) Are there either local or systemic side effects?

13) How effective is laser doppler in evaluating blood flow in people

with rosacea - how critical is it to have the probe in the 'right'

place?

14) Is the theory that NO is involved correct?

Regarding the specific molecule in which we are interested, L-NAME,

it

is 'reasonably' active against all forms of the enzyme. The 'E "

stands

for ester and these molecules usually get through the skin fairly

well. At the same time, once through, esters are often cleaved, which

may be OK here as the molecule may still be active. We would like to

lable the molecule with 14-Carbon to make it radioactive (which costs

about $10,000) and then test it in a human skin model (excess skin

from surgery) to see how much gets through ($15,000).

That's were we are.

EAL

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

I corresponded with Ethan a while ago on his work. Here is one of

his responses:

----------------------------------------------------

Reply to: Re: rosacea and nitric oxide

Rick,

I am catching up on lots of things so here goes: First, thank you for

the information. Could you direct me to a couple of the internet

forums that are discussing nitric oxide and rosacea? There are

several

issues with regard to how effective a molecule may be in therapy of

rosacea, or facial redness for that matter. These include:

1) Does the molecule get through the skin?

2) How much gets through?

3) Is it altered as a result?

4) is the altered version active?

5) How potent an inhibitor of the enzyme nitric oxide synthase is the

molecule?

6) There are several different forms of the enzyme. Are they all

important?

7) Does the molecule work on all of only one form of the enzyme?

8) How much of the enzyme is made?

9) If a lot is made, how often does the inhibitor need to be applied?

10) If the inhibitor works will it start a cycle such that more

enzyme

is made to compensate and thus make the redness worse?

11) What happens if you stop applying the inhibitor - will the

redness

get markedly worse?

12) Are there either local or systemic side effects?

13) How effective is laser doppler in evaluating blood flow in people

with rosacea - how critical is it to have the probe in the 'right'

place?

14) Is the theory that NO is involved correct?

Regarding the specific molecule in which we are interested, L-NAME,

it

is 'reasonably' active against all forms of the enzyme. The 'E "

stands

for ester and these molecules usually get through the skin fairly

well. At the same time, once through, esters are often cleaved, which

may be OK here as the molecule may still be active. We would like to

lable the molecule with 14-Carbon to make it radioactive (which costs

about $10,000) and then test it in a human skin model (excess skin

from surgery) to see how much gets through ($15,000).

That's were we are.

EAL

--------------------------------------------------------------------

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

Thanks for the reply. I agree. I think the immune system plays an

important role in cea. I didn't realize that this was a prevelent

theory in the medical community. While the ultimate problem is anything

that causes blood vessel dilation, I think the immune system can be a cause

of this. I mean it seems to me that Zyrtec helps the facial flushing of

cea in almost as many people as Clonidine does... thats got to mean

something right? Plus my theory on antibiotic use and rosacea has always

been that the reason they stop working over time is because of what they do

to the immune system. I mean bacterial resistance is common, but it doesn't

seem like our skin would build up an anti-inflammatory resistance as well

right? Yet somehow antibiotics stop working after a while. I always

figured that this was because while the anti-inflammatory properties of

systemic antibiotics helped, the antibiotics also were doing something over

time in the body that worsened cea a little bit that eventually begins

to counter-act the benefits. And it is known that in the long-term

antibiotics can cause a low wbc, and I guess that would make the immune

system become partially dependent on the antibiotics.. or something.. (dont

know if this makes sense medically... just the way i've always explained it

to myself) :)

I was just sorta hoping that no matter what the cause, NOIs might be able to

help. (Was hoping that even if Nitric Oxide is just a chemical that occurs

mid-way through the cea process, regardless of the cause, blocking NO

and other vasodilating chemicals might still prevent the flush) But if after

several years there's been no success, I guess that means we may be back to

square 1. (although i'm still hoping that these experiments work out!)

Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments

> Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well

> be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

> originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or

> imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic

> science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities

> as well.

>

> I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

> my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

> That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime

> a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

> compared to another good theory.

>

> Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

> reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

> thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

> that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily

> a vascular disorder.

>

> Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

> hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

> would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin

> to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

> something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems -

> - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being

> stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

>

> Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep

> or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

> You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

> weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work --

> and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

> disorder.

>

> A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was

> something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

> What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

> the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

> painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

> release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

> inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

> area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

> responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules

> would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary

> vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

> immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

>

> What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

> immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

> immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

> starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

> people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

> here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

> generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

> respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

> anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory

> agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

> individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

> with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules

> but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or

> problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

> from others to account for these difference, for example.

>

> But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this,

> some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

> dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

> sytem.

>

> Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

> skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

> not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people,

> but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to

> immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

> to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other

> factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder

> also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co-

> pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

> which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

>

> So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

> doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but

> may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not*

> be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

> immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

> the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

> immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

> to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

> other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

> synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

> decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

> too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

> completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

> mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

>

> I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many

> people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

> thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

> didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

> disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

> so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

>

> Marjorie

>

> Marjorie Lazoff, MD

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't

give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the

subject when replying to a digest !

>

> See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

>

> To leave the list send an email to

rosacea-support-unsubscribe

>

>

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Guest guest

Since the subject of auto-immune has come up does any one else have

vitilligo? I only have it on my face and neck - so without makeup to even

out my skin color I look strange - red (rosacea) patches and white

(vitilligo) patches. Luckily I have fair completion.

Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments

>

>

> > Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well

> > be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

> > originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or

> > imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic

> > science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities

> > as well.

> >

> > I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

> > my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

> > That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime

> > a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

> > compared to another good theory.

> >

> > Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

> > reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

> > thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

> > that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily

> > a vascular disorder.

> >

> > Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

> > hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

> > would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin

> > to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

> > something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems -

> > - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being

> > stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

> >

> > Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep

> > or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

> > You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

> > weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work --

> > and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

> > disorder.

> >

> > A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was

> > something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

> > What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

> > the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

> > painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

> > release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

> > inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

> > area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

> > responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules

> > would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary

> > vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

> > immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

> >

> > What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

> > immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

> > immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

> > starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

> > people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

> > here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

> > generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

> > respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

> > anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory

> > agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

> > individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

> > with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules

> > but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or

> > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

> > from others to account for these difference, for example.

> >

> > But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this,

> > some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

> > dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

> > sytem.

> >

> > Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

> > skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

> > not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people,

> > but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to

> > immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

> > to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other

> > factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder

> > also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co-

> > pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

> > which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

> >

> > So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

> > doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but

> > may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not*

> > be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

> > immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

> > the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

> > immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

> > to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

> > other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

> > synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

> > decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

> > too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

> > completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

> > mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

> >

> > I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many

> > people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

> > thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

> > didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

> > disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

> > so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

> >

> > Marjorie

> >

> > Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

> (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't

> give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the

> subject when replying to a digest !

> >

> > See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

> >

> > To leave the list send an email to

> rosacea-support-unsubscribe

> >

> >

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Last semester I had a teacher who had a fair case of psoriasis, and I

worked up the courage to ask her about the condition without making

myself look like too much of a jackass. She said she has taken

medication that lessens the immune system's response ( forget the

name ) and that her skin is now much improved. Anyone else doing the

same for rosacea? Perhaps if we find enough people that have taken

any of these type medications against the immune system we'll be

closer to drawing a correlation.

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rosacea has two primary components, vascular AND immunologic.

superimposed as complicating factors on these components is the

infective component. (either p. acnes, staph (epidermis or aureus),

yeasts or fungi, or gram negatives, or possibly demodex, or some

combination -- depending on the individual)

as topical therapy sulfoxyl covers all infective components and acts

as an anti-inflammatory. plus the vehicle is non comedogenic.

as oral therapy, minocycline and zithromax cover the greatest range

of the infective components and provide anti-inflammatory/immunologic

suppression in the skin action.

Dapsone is the highest anti-inflammatory of all the oral therapy sans

steriods. Yet, its anti-infective spectrum is lacking so it should

be supplemented with either minocycline or zithromax.

Adam, that's an intellectually

sophisticated observation. It may well

> be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

> originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research

and/or

> imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from

basic

> science to practical clinical benefits. There are other

possibilities

> as well.

>

> I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

> my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

> That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a

dime

> a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

> compared to another good theory.

>

> Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

> reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

> thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

> that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not

primarily

> a vascular disorder.

>

> Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

> hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

> would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would

begin

> to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

> something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular

problems -

> - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin

being

> stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

>

> Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were

asleep

> or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

> You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

> weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at

work --

> and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

> disorder.

>

> A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there

was

> something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

> What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

> the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

> painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

> release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

> inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

> area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

> responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and

papules

> would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a

primary

> vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

> immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

>

> What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

> immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

> immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

> starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

> people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

> here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

> generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

> respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

> anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-

inflammatory

> agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

> individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

> with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with

papules

> but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food

or

> problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

> from others to account for these difference, for example.

>

> But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all

this,

> some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

> dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

> sytem.

>

> Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

> skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

> not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many

people,

> but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive

to

> immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

> to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by

other

> factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic

disorder

> also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed

co-

> pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

> which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

>

> So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

> doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved

but

> may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may

*not*

> be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

> immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

> the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

> immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

> to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

> other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

> synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

> decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

> too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

> completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

> mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

>

> I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know

many

> people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

> thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

> didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

> disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

> so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

>

> Marjorie

>

> Marjorie Lazoff, MD

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you

don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must

change the subject when replying to a digest !

>

> See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

>

> To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe@y...

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

rosacea has two primary components, vascular AND immunologic.

superimposed as complicating factors on these components is the

infective component. (either p. acnes, staph (epidermis or aureus),

yeasts or fungi, or gram negatives, or possibly demodex, or some

combination -- depending on the individual)

as topical therapy sulfoxyl covers all infective components and acts

as an anti-inflammatory. plus the vehicle is non comedogenic.

as oral therapy, minocycline and zithromax cover the greatest range

of the infective components and provide anti-inflammatory/immunologic

suppression in the skin action.

Dapsone is the highest anti-inflammatory of all the oral therapy sans

steriods. Yet, its anti-infective spectrum is lacking so it should

be supplemented with either minocycline or zithromax.

Adam, that's an intellectually

sophisticated observation. It may well

> be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

> originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research

and/or

> imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from

basic

> science to practical clinical benefits. There are other

possibilities

> as well.

>

> I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

> my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

> That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a

dime

> a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

> compared to another good theory.

>

> Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

> reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

> thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

> that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not

primarily

> a vascular disorder.

>

> Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

> hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

> would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would

begin

> to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

> something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular

problems -

> - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin

being

> stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

>

> Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were

asleep

> or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

> You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

> weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at

work --

> and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

> disorder.

>

> A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there

was

> something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

> What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

> the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

> painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

> release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

> inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

> area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

> responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and

papules

> would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a

primary

> vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

> immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

>

> What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

> immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

> immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

> starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

> people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

> here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

> generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

> respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

> anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-

inflammatory

> agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

> individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

> with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with

papules

> but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food

or

> problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

> from others to account for these difference, for example.

>

> But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all

this,

> some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

> dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

> sytem.

>

> Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

> skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

> not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many

people,

> but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive

to

> immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

> to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by

other

> factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic

disorder

> also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed

co-

> pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

> which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

>

> So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

> doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved

but

> may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may

*not*

> be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

> immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

> the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

> immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

> to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

> other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

> synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

> decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

> too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

> completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

> mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

>

> I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know

many

> people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

> thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

> didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

> disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

> so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

>

> Marjorie

>

> Marjorie Lazoff, MD

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you

don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must

change the subject when replying to a digest !

>

> See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

>

> To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe@y...

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

rosacea has two primary components, vascular AND immunologic.

superimposed as complicating factors on these components is the

infective component. (either p. acnes, staph (epidermis or aureus),

yeasts or fungi, or gram negatives, or possibly demodex, or some

combination -- depending on the individual)

as topical therapy sulfoxyl covers all infective components and acts

as an anti-inflammatory. plus the vehicle is non comedogenic.

as oral therapy, minocycline and zithromax cover the greatest range

of the infective components and provide anti-inflammatory/immunologic

suppression in the skin action.

Dapsone is the highest anti-inflammatory of all the oral therapy sans

steriods. Yet, its anti-infective spectrum is lacking so it should

be supplemented with either minocycline or zithromax.

Adam, that's an intellectually

sophisticated observation. It may well

> be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as

> originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research

and/or

> imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from

basic

> science to practical clinical benefits. There are other

possibilities

> as well.

>

> I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of

> my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong.

> That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a

dime

> a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing

> compared to another good theory.

>

> Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after

> reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and

> thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe

> that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not

primarily

> a vascular disorder.

>

> Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face

> hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek

> would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would

begin

> to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't

> something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular

problems -

> - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin

being

> stimulated, " injured " by my slaps.

>

> Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were

asleep

> or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek.

> You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the

> weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at

work --

> and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing

> disorder.

>

> A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there

was

> something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious?

> What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of

> the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but

> painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would

> release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be-

> inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local

> area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores

> responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and

papules

> would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a

primary

> vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an

> immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation.

>

> What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is

> immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the

> immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For

> starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned

> people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities

> here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a

> generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would

> respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be

> anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-

inflammatory

> agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by

> individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some

> with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with

papules

> but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food

or

> problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ

> from others to account for these difference, for example.

>

> But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all

this,

> some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the

> dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune

> sytem.

>

> Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control

> skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but

> not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many

people,

> but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive

to

> immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected

> to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by

other

> factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic

disorder

> also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed

co-

> pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of

> which are also thought to have a genetic basis.

>

> So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides

> doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved

but

> may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may

*not*

> be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing

> immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into

> the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around --

> immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase

> to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the

> other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO

> synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just

> decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in

> too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down

> completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory

> mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation.

>

> I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know

many

> people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with

> thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I

> didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is

> disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory

> so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much.

>

> Marjorie

>

> Marjorie Lazoff, MD

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you

don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must

change the subject when replying to a digest !

>

> See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

>

> To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe@y...

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

> > " None of these sound like problems with food or

> > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't

> > differ from others to account for these difference, for example " .

> I agree to a point, but also disagree with the part that food or

> stress management don't play much of a role in this condition...

Eliza, my point was that fair-skinned people don't eat differently or

suffer/deal with stress differently than their darker-skinned

rosaceans (unless it's really true that blondes have more fun ).

Seriously, if they did eat or stress out differently, then that might

account for the difference in incidence of rosacea in fair vs darker

skinned individuals. But they don't, so it doesn't seem likely to me

that food or stress are major factors in rosacea. See my point now?

I've not read anyone doubting that stress decreases immune function,

just not to the extent that many believe it does.

> ...A recent theroy

> has linked ITP to H. pilory infection...

What you said about ITP is very clear. It was fashionable a few years

ago to attribute everything to H. pylori infections (including

rosacea). Now, it's fashionable to denounce the connection. For

example:

-=-=-=

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11843840&dopt=Abstract

Br J Haematol 2001 Dec;115(4):1002-3

Absence of platelet response after eradication of Helicobacter pylori

infection in patients with chronic idiopathic thrombocytopenic

purpura.

Jarque I, Andreu R, Llopis I, De la Rubia J, Gomis F, Senent L,

Jimenez C, G, ez JA, Sanz GF, Ponce J, Sanz MA.

Haematology Services, Hospital Universitario La Fe, Av. Campanar. 21,

46009 Valencia, Spain.

Eradication of Helicobacter pylori infection has been associated with

the correction of thrombocytopenia in patients with idiopathic

thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP). We have analysed the response to

eradication of H. pylori in a series of 56 adult patients with

chronic ITP. Forty patients had H. pylori infection (71%) that was

eradicated in 23 of 32 evaluable patients (72%). Platelet counts did

not significantly vary according to H. pylori treatment outcome.

Three of 56 patients (5%) achieved a partial response attributable to

H. pylori eradication. Therefore, detection of H. pylori infection

should not be routinely included in the initial work-up of ITP.

-=-=-=

My understanding is that H. pylori is one of the causes of refractory

ITP (and perhaps rosacea that is refractory to all therapy as well),

but not something to be considered for the majority with mainstream

ITP (or rosacea, or any of the other illnesses that are being

attributed to H. pylori infection nowadays -- except ulcers ).

> About food, I believe the gastrointestinal tract acts as a

> secretory organ...

I'm not sure what you mean by " believe. " The stomach and small

intestines secretes hormones, neuropeptides, enzymes...that's fact,

not belief.

>...and an immune sensing device responsible for immunization

> against incoming antigens and tolerance to frequently appearing

> antigens.

Right, that's normal functioning, transient large molecule

permeability as part of all GI cell turnover and also permanently

with specific portions of the GI tract (Peyer's patch, if I recall

correctly).

> The permeability of the GIT determines how much antigenic

> material get inside, and maybe this plays a role as to how food

> triggers vary so much amongst rosacea sufferers.

I think it's important not to exaggerate this normal phenomenon out

of proportion, and attribute health problems to GI permeability as if

the ideal is GI impermeability.

I don't appreciate the link between food and rosacea. I do think a

subset of diagnosed rosaceas suffer from food allergies/intolerances

that manifest as dermatitis on their face, with or without an

underlying rosacea. Why can't we attribute the development of food

intolerance to the normal transient permeability of food molecules

through the gut -- why postulate increased permeability or think that

changing the GI's permeability will improve health, is there?

(That's not to say that people on antibiotics shouldn't replenish

their GI flora with lactobacilli with, for example, yogurt. That will

help much of the diarrhea and candida infections, and some of the

interference in metabolizing other drugs used with antibiotics.)

> It could very well be an aberrant substance, but it can be as

> simple

> as differences between people in the gene coding for GIT

> permeability, hence, for some the response is not as harmless as it

> is supposed to be.

I doubt it, since increased GI permeability would primarily manifest

as malabsorption with lots of diarrhea, failure to thrive, etc. Even

if a more subtle manifestation, diarrhea and other GI symptoms would

be expected to play some part of the symptom complex of rosacea, and

they clearly aren't; rosacea is a local disease.

> Or maybe a gene coding for the auto-antibody

> directed specifically towards, lets say, the vascular bed of the

> face (such as in the autoimmune vasculitis.

I don't think rosacea is an autoimmune disorder, since there are not

(to my knowledge) a specific autoantibody or increase in the antibody

portion of the blood test (gamma globulins), which is a necessary --

though not sufficient -- condition to call something an autoimmune

disorder. I think it's associated with autoimmune conditions (such as

ITP), but why isn't clear.

Also, consider that a localized inflammatory vasculitis would not

manifest as rosacea. For example, think of how temporal arteritis

presents. Hypersensitivity vasculitis, which is a small vessel

vasculitis (though systemic, not local like TA), has a skin

manifestiation, but it's urticarial.

> I find it unlikely to

> be an immune damage due to substances applied to surface of the

skin

> of the face mainly because the lysozymes that the skin secrete are

> the main substances responsible for antigen protection and not

> antibodies. Again, I am just theorizing here.

Sounds interesting, but I'm really not following what you're saying

here. cea is a dermal disease, not an epidermal disease. The

biopsies demonstrate a dermal infiltration of chronic inflammation

(see http://medlib.med.utah.edu/kw/derm/pages/ac23_2.htm), not an

epidermal infiltration as one would find in, for example, hives.

You're closer to all this physiology stuff than I am, so I don't

remember lysozymes and the skin, but aren't the lysozymes you're

referring to secreted in the epidermis?

An allergic dermatitis on the surface of the skin -- a true allergy

such as in persons with an allergy to nickle-containing eyeglasses --

may look like rosacea, but it isn't. An irritation from an ingredient

in a skin care product can produce an inflammation too -- unlike an

allergy that's not an immune process, and it also isn't rosacea. Both

can worsen an underlying rosacea, of course.

> Could you get some funding to start a research project on this

> hypothesis? (I'm kind of kidding, but it would be great if this

> became true!)

You're just looking for an easy fourth-year elective that will give

you some research experience for your residency applications. You

know I'd be an easy Honors grade for you.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

> > " None of these sound like problems with food or

> > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't

> > differ from others to account for these difference, for example " .

> I agree to a point, but also disagree with the part that food or

> stress management don't play much of a role in this condition...

Eliza, my point was that fair-skinned people don't eat differently or

suffer/deal with stress differently than their darker-skinned

rosaceans (unless it's really true that blondes have more fun ).

Seriously, if they did eat or stress out differently, then that might

account for the difference in incidence of rosacea in fair vs darker

skinned individuals. But they don't, so it doesn't seem likely to me

that food or stress are major factors in rosacea. See my point now?

I've not read anyone doubting that stress decreases immune function,

just not to the extent that many believe it does.

> ...A recent theroy

> has linked ITP to H. pilory infection...

What you said about ITP is very clear. It was fashionable a few years

ago to attribute everything to H. pylori infections (including

rosacea). Now, it's fashionable to denounce the connection. For

example:

-=-=-=

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11843840&dopt=Abstract

Br J Haematol 2001 Dec;115(4):1002-3

Absence of platelet response after eradication of Helicobacter pylori

infection in patients with chronic idiopathic thrombocytopenic

purpura.

Jarque I, Andreu R, Llopis I, De la Rubia J, Gomis F, Senent L,

Jimenez C, G, ez JA, Sanz GF, Ponce J, Sanz MA.

Haematology Services, Hospital Universitario La Fe, Av. Campanar. 21,

46009 Valencia, Spain.

Eradication of Helicobacter pylori infection has been associated with

the correction of thrombocytopenia in patients with idiopathic

thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP). We have analysed the response to

eradication of H. pylori in a series of 56 adult patients with

chronic ITP. Forty patients had H. pylori infection (71%) that was

eradicated in 23 of 32 evaluable patients (72%). Platelet counts did

not significantly vary according to H. pylori treatment outcome.

Three of 56 patients (5%) achieved a partial response attributable to

H. pylori eradication. Therefore, detection of H. pylori infection

should not be routinely included in the initial work-up of ITP.

-=-=-=

My understanding is that H. pylori is one of the causes of refractory

ITP (and perhaps rosacea that is refractory to all therapy as well),

but not something to be considered for the majority with mainstream

ITP (or rosacea, or any of the other illnesses that are being

attributed to H. pylori infection nowadays -- except ulcers ).

> About food, I believe the gastrointestinal tract acts as a

> secretory organ...

I'm not sure what you mean by " believe. " The stomach and small

intestines secretes hormones, neuropeptides, enzymes...that's fact,

not belief.

>...and an immune sensing device responsible for immunization

> against incoming antigens and tolerance to frequently appearing

> antigens.

Right, that's normal functioning, transient large molecule

permeability as part of all GI cell turnover and also permanently

with specific portions of the GI tract (Peyer's patch, if I recall

correctly).

> The permeability of the GIT determines how much antigenic

> material get inside, and maybe this plays a role as to how food

> triggers vary so much amongst rosacea sufferers.

I think it's important not to exaggerate this normal phenomenon out

of proportion, and attribute health problems to GI permeability as if

the ideal is GI impermeability.

I don't appreciate the link between food and rosacea. I do think a

subset of diagnosed rosaceas suffer from food allergies/intolerances

that manifest as dermatitis on their face, with or without an

underlying rosacea. Why can't we attribute the development of food

intolerance to the normal transient permeability of food molecules

through the gut -- why postulate increased permeability or think that

changing the GI's permeability will improve health, is there?

(That's not to say that people on antibiotics shouldn't replenish

their GI flora with lactobacilli with, for example, yogurt. That will

help much of the diarrhea and candida infections, and some of the

interference in metabolizing other drugs used with antibiotics.)

> It could very well be an aberrant substance, but it can be as

> simple

> as differences between people in the gene coding for GIT

> permeability, hence, for some the response is not as harmless as it

> is supposed to be.

I doubt it, since increased GI permeability would primarily manifest

as malabsorption with lots of diarrhea, failure to thrive, etc. Even

if a more subtle manifestation, diarrhea and other GI symptoms would

be expected to play some part of the symptom complex of rosacea, and

they clearly aren't; rosacea is a local disease.

> Or maybe a gene coding for the auto-antibody

> directed specifically towards, lets say, the vascular bed of the

> face (such as in the autoimmune vasculitis.

I don't think rosacea is an autoimmune disorder, since there are not

(to my knowledge) a specific autoantibody or increase in the antibody

portion of the blood test (gamma globulins), which is a necessary --

though not sufficient -- condition to call something an autoimmune

disorder. I think it's associated with autoimmune conditions (such as

ITP), but why isn't clear.

Also, consider that a localized inflammatory vasculitis would not

manifest as rosacea. For example, think of how temporal arteritis

presents. Hypersensitivity vasculitis, which is a small vessel

vasculitis (though systemic, not local like TA), has a skin

manifestiation, but it's urticarial.

> I find it unlikely to

> be an immune damage due to substances applied to surface of the

skin

> of the face mainly because the lysozymes that the skin secrete are

> the main substances responsible for antigen protection and not

> antibodies. Again, I am just theorizing here.

Sounds interesting, but I'm really not following what you're saying

here. cea is a dermal disease, not an epidermal disease. The

biopsies demonstrate a dermal infiltration of chronic inflammation

(see http://medlib.med.utah.edu/kw/derm/pages/ac23_2.htm), not an

epidermal infiltration as one would find in, for example, hives.

You're closer to all this physiology stuff than I am, so I don't

remember lysozymes and the skin, but aren't the lysozymes you're

referring to secreted in the epidermis?

An allergic dermatitis on the surface of the skin -- a true allergy

such as in persons with an allergy to nickle-containing eyeglasses --

may look like rosacea, but it isn't. An irritation from an ingredient

in a skin care product can produce an inflammation too -- unlike an

allergy that's not an immune process, and it also isn't rosacea. Both

can worsen an underlying rosacea, of course.

> Could you get some funding to start a research project on this

> hypothesis? (I'm kind of kidding, but it would be great if this

> became true!)

You're just looking for an easy fourth-year elective that will give

you some research experience for your residency applications. You

know I'd be an easy Honors grade for you.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

> > " None of these sound like problems with food or

> > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't

> > differ from others to account for these difference, for example " .

> I agree to a point, but also disagree with the part that food or

> stress management don't play much of a role in this condition...

Eliza, my point was that fair-skinned people don't eat differently or

suffer/deal with stress differently than their darker-skinned

rosaceans (unless it's really true that blondes have more fun ).

Seriously, if they did eat or stress out differently, then that might

account for the difference in incidence of rosacea in fair vs darker

skinned individuals. But they don't, so it doesn't seem likely to me

that food or stress are major factors in rosacea. See my point now?

I've not read anyone doubting that stress decreases immune function,

just not to the extent that many believe it does.

> ...A recent theroy

> has linked ITP to H. pilory infection...

What you said about ITP is very clear. It was fashionable a few years

ago to attribute everything to H. pylori infections (including

rosacea). Now, it's fashionable to denounce the connection. For

example:

-=-=-=

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11843840&dopt=Abstract

Br J Haematol 2001 Dec;115(4):1002-3

Absence of platelet response after eradication of Helicobacter pylori

infection in patients with chronic idiopathic thrombocytopenic

purpura.

Jarque I, Andreu R, Llopis I, De la Rubia J, Gomis F, Senent L,

Jimenez C, G, ez JA, Sanz GF, Ponce J, Sanz MA.

Haematology Services, Hospital Universitario La Fe, Av. Campanar. 21,

46009 Valencia, Spain.

Eradication of Helicobacter pylori infection has been associated with

the correction of thrombocytopenia in patients with idiopathic

thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP). We have analysed the response to

eradication of H. pylori in a series of 56 adult patients with

chronic ITP. Forty patients had H. pylori infection (71%) that was

eradicated in 23 of 32 evaluable patients (72%). Platelet counts did

not significantly vary according to H. pylori treatment outcome.

Three of 56 patients (5%) achieved a partial response attributable to

H. pylori eradication. Therefore, detection of H. pylori infection

should not be routinely included in the initial work-up of ITP.

-=-=-=

My understanding is that H. pylori is one of the causes of refractory

ITP (and perhaps rosacea that is refractory to all therapy as well),

but not something to be considered for the majority with mainstream

ITP (or rosacea, or any of the other illnesses that are being

attributed to H. pylori infection nowadays -- except ulcers ).

> About food, I believe the gastrointestinal tract acts as a

> secretory organ...

I'm not sure what you mean by " believe. " The stomach and small

intestines secretes hormones, neuropeptides, enzymes...that's fact,

not belief.

>...and an immune sensing device responsible for immunization

> against incoming antigens and tolerance to frequently appearing

> antigens.

Right, that's normal functioning, transient large molecule

permeability as part of all GI cell turnover and also permanently

with specific portions of the GI tract (Peyer's patch, if I recall

correctly).

> The permeability of the GIT determines how much antigenic

> material get inside, and maybe this plays a role as to how food

> triggers vary so much amongst rosacea sufferers.

I think it's important not to exaggerate this normal phenomenon out

of proportion, and attribute health problems to GI permeability as if

the ideal is GI impermeability.

I don't appreciate the link between food and rosacea. I do think a

subset of diagnosed rosaceas suffer from food allergies/intolerances

that manifest as dermatitis on their face, with or without an

underlying rosacea. Why can't we attribute the development of food

intolerance to the normal transient permeability of food molecules

through the gut -- why postulate increased permeability or think that

changing the GI's permeability will improve health, is there?

(That's not to say that people on antibiotics shouldn't replenish

their GI flora with lactobacilli with, for example, yogurt. That will

help much of the diarrhea and candida infections, and some of the

interference in metabolizing other drugs used with antibiotics.)

> It could very well be an aberrant substance, but it can be as

> simple

> as differences between people in the gene coding for GIT

> permeability, hence, for some the response is not as harmless as it

> is supposed to be.

I doubt it, since increased GI permeability would primarily manifest

as malabsorption with lots of diarrhea, failure to thrive, etc. Even

if a more subtle manifestation, diarrhea and other GI symptoms would

be expected to play some part of the symptom complex of rosacea, and

they clearly aren't; rosacea is a local disease.

> Or maybe a gene coding for the auto-antibody

> directed specifically towards, lets say, the vascular bed of the

> face (such as in the autoimmune vasculitis.

I don't think rosacea is an autoimmune disorder, since there are not

(to my knowledge) a specific autoantibody or increase in the antibody

portion of the blood test (gamma globulins), which is a necessary --

though not sufficient -- condition to call something an autoimmune

disorder. I think it's associated with autoimmune conditions (such as

ITP), but why isn't clear.

Also, consider that a localized inflammatory vasculitis would not

manifest as rosacea. For example, think of how temporal arteritis

presents. Hypersensitivity vasculitis, which is a small vessel

vasculitis (though systemic, not local like TA), has a skin

manifestiation, but it's urticarial.

> I find it unlikely to

> be an immune damage due to substances applied to surface of the

skin

> of the face mainly because the lysozymes that the skin secrete are

> the main substances responsible for antigen protection and not

> antibodies. Again, I am just theorizing here.

Sounds interesting, but I'm really not following what you're saying

here. cea is a dermal disease, not an epidermal disease. The

biopsies demonstrate a dermal infiltration of chronic inflammation

(see http://medlib.med.utah.edu/kw/derm/pages/ac23_2.htm), not an

epidermal infiltration as one would find in, for example, hives.

You're closer to all this physiology stuff than I am, so I don't

remember lysozymes and the skin, but aren't the lysozymes you're

referring to secreted in the epidermis?

An allergic dermatitis on the surface of the skin -- a true allergy

such as in persons with an allergy to nickle-containing eyeglasses --

may look like rosacea, but it isn't. An irritation from an ingredient

in a skin care product can produce an inflammation too -- unlike an

allergy that's not an immune process, and it also isn't rosacea. Both

can worsen an underlying rosacea, of course.

> Could you get some funding to start a research project on this

> hypothesis? (I'm kind of kidding, but it would be great if this

> became true!)

You're just looking for an easy fourth-year elective that will give

you some research experience for your residency applications. You

know I'd be an easy Honors grade for you.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

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