Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities as well. I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing compared to another good theory. Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily a vascular disorder. Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing disorder. A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ from others to account for these difference, for example. But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune sytem. Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of which are also thought to have a genetic basis. So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities as well. I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing compared to another good theory. Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily a vascular disorder. Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing disorder. A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ from others to account for these difference, for example. But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune sytem. Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of which are also thought to have a genetic basis. So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities as well. I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing compared to another good theory. Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily a vascular disorder. Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing disorder. A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ from others to account for these difference, for example. But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune sytem. Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of which are also thought to have a genetic basis. So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 This theory really interests me. My earliest symptom of rosacea was telangiectasia. I had it (them?) for years before any other symptoms. My mother had them also, as a result of the scleroderma she had, an auto-immune disease which eventually killed her. When she saw my skin she became worried that I was in the early stages of scleroderma. I have wondered whether they indicate that I have some auto-immune involvement. Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities as well. I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing compared to another good theory. Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily a vascular disorder. Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing disorder. A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ from others to account for these difference, for example. But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune sytem. Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of which are also thought to have a genetic basis. So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD -- Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the subject when replying to a digest ! See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 This theory really interests me. My earliest symptom of rosacea was telangiectasia. I had it (them?) for years before any other symptoms. My mother had them also, as a result of the scleroderma she had, an auto-immune disease which eventually killed her. When she saw my skin she became worried that I was in the early stages of scleroderma. I have wondered whether they indicate that I have some auto-immune involvement. Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities as well. I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing compared to another good theory. Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily a vascular disorder. Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing disorder. A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ from others to account for these difference, for example. But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune sytem. Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of which are also thought to have a genetic basis. So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD -- Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the subject when replying to a digest ! See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 This theory really interests me. My earliest symptom of rosacea was telangiectasia. I had it (them?) for years before any other symptoms. My mother had them also, as a result of the scleroderma she had, an auto-immune disease which eventually killed her. When she saw my skin she became worried that I was in the early stages of scleroderma. I have wondered whether they indicate that I have some auto-immune involvement. Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities as well. I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing compared to another good theory. Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily a vascular disorder. Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing disorder. A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ from others to account for these difference, for example. But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune sytem. Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of which are also thought to have a genetic basis. So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD -- Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the subject when replying to a digest ! See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 I corresponded with Ethan a while ago on his work. Here is one of his responses: ---------------------------------------------------- Reply to: Re: rosacea and nitric oxide Rick, I am catching up on lots of things so here goes: First, thank you for the information. Could you direct me to a couple of the internet forums that are discussing nitric oxide and rosacea? There are several issues with regard to how effective a molecule may be in therapy of rosacea, or facial redness for that matter. These include: 1) Does the molecule get through the skin? 2) How much gets through? 3) Is it altered as a result? 4) is the altered version active? 5) How potent an inhibitor of the enzyme nitric oxide synthase is the molecule? 6) There are several different forms of the enzyme. Are they all important? 7) Does the molecule work on all of only one form of the enzyme? 8) How much of the enzyme is made? 9) If a lot is made, how often does the inhibitor need to be applied? 10) If the inhibitor works will it start a cycle such that more enzyme is made to compensate and thus make the redness worse? 11) What happens if you stop applying the inhibitor - will the redness get markedly worse? 12) Are there either local or systemic side effects? 13) How effective is laser doppler in evaluating blood flow in people with rosacea - how critical is it to have the probe in the 'right' place? 14) Is the theory that NO is involved correct? Regarding the specific molecule in which we are interested, L-NAME, it is 'reasonably' active against all forms of the enzyme. The 'E " stands for ester and these molecules usually get through the skin fairly well. At the same time, once through, esters are often cleaved, which may be OK here as the molecule may still be active. We would like to lable the molecule with 14-Carbon to make it radioactive (which costs about $10,000) and then test it in a human skin model (excess skin from surgery) to see how much gets through ($15,000). That's were we are. EAL -------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 I corresponded with Ethan a while ago on his work. Here is one of his responses: ---------------------------------------------------- Reply to: Re: rosacea and nitric oxide Rick, I am catching up on lots of things so here goes: First, thank you for the information. Could you direct me to a couple of the internet forums that are discussing nitric oxide and rosacea? There are several issues with regard to how effective a molecule may be in therapy of rosacea, or facial redness for that matter. These include: 1) Does the molecule get through the skin? 2) How much gets through? 3) Is it altered as a result? 4) is the altered version active? 5) How potent an inhibitor of the enzyme nitric oxide synthase is the molecule? 6) There are several different forms of the enzyme. Are they all important? 7) Does the molecule work on all of only one form of the enzyme? 8) How much of the enzyme is made? 9) If a lot is made, how often does the inhibitor need to be applied? 10) If the inhibitor works will it start a cycle such that more enzyme is made to compensate and thus make the redness worse? 11) What happens if you stop applying the inhibitor - will the redness get markedly worse? 12) Are there either local or systemic side effects? 13) How effective is laser doppler in evaluating blood flow in people with rosacea - how critical is it to have the probe in the 'right' place? 14) Is the theory that NO is involved correct? Regarding the specific molecule in which we are interested, L-NAME, it is 'reasonably' active against all forms of the enzyme. The 'E " stands for ester and these molecules usually get through the skin fairly well. At the same time, once through, esters are often cleaved, which may be OK here as the molecule may still be active. We would like to lable the molecule with 14-Carbon to make it radioactive (which costs about $10,000) and then test it in a human skin model (excess skin from surgery) to see how much gets through ($15,000). That's were we are. EAL -------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 I corresponded with Ethan a while ago on his work. Here is one of his responses: ---------------------------------------------------- Reply to: Re: rosacea and nitric oxide Rick, I am catching up on lots of things so here goes: First, thank you for the information. Could you direct me to a couple of the internet forums that are discussing nitric oxide and rosacea? There are several issues with regard to how effective a molecule may be in therapy of rosacea, or facial redness for that matter. These include: 1) Does the molecule get through the skin? 2) How much gets through? 3) Is it altered as a result? 4) is the altered version active? 5) How potent an inhibitor of the enzyme nitric oxide synthase is the molecule? 6) There are several different forms of the enzyme. Are they all important? 7) Does the molecule work on all of only one form of the enzyme? 8) How much of the enzyme is made? 9) If a lot is made, how often does the inhibitor need to be applied? 10) If the inhibitor works will it start a cycle such that more enzyme is made to compensate and thus make the redness worse? 11) What happens if you stop applying the inhibitor - will the redness get markedly worse? 12) Are there either local or systemic side effects? 13) How effective is laser doppler in evaluating blood flow in people with rosacea - how critical is it to have the probe in the 'right' place? 14) Is the theory that NO is involved correct? Regarding the specific molecule in which we are interested, L-NAME, it is 'reasonably' active against all forms of the enzyme. The 'E " stands for ester and these molecules usually get through the skin fairly well. At the same time, once through, esters are often cleaved, which may be OK here as the molecule may still be active. We would like to lable the molecule with 14-Carbon to make it radioactive (which costs about $10,000) and then test it in a human skin model (excess skin from surgery) to see how much gets through ($15,000). That's were we are. EAL -------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 Thanks for the reply. I agree. I think the immune system plays an important role in cea. I didn't realize that this was a prevelent theory in the medical community. While the ultimate problem is anything that causes blood vessel dilation, I think the immune system can be a cause of this. I mean it seems to me that Zyrtec helps the facial flushing of cea in almost as many people as Clonidine does... thats got to mean something right? Plus my theory on antibiotic use and rosacea has always been that the reason they stop working over time is because of what they do to the immune system. I mean bacterial resistance is common, but it doesn't seem like our skin would build up an anti-inflammatory resistance as well right? Yet somehow antibiotics stop working after a while. I always figured that this was because while the anti-inflammatory properties of systemic antibiotics helped, the antibiotics also were doing something over time in the body that worsened cea a little bit that eventually begins to counter-act the benefits. And it is known that in the long-term antibiotics can cause a low wbc, and I guess that would make the immune system become partially dependent on the antibiotics.. or something.. (dont know if this makes sense medically... just the way i've always explained it to myself) I was just sorta hoping that no matter what the cause, NOIs might be able to help. (Was hoping that even if Nitric Oxide is just a chemical that occurs mid-way through the cea process, regardless of the cause, blocking NO and other vasodilating chemicals might still prevent the flush) But if after several years there's been no success, I guess that means we may be back to square 1. (although i'm still hoping that these experiments work out!) Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments > Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well > be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as > originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or > imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic > science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities > as well. > > I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of > my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. > That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime > a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing > compared to another good theory. > > Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after > reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and > thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe > that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily > a vascular disorder. > > Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face > hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek > would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin > to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't > something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - > - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being > stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. > > Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep > or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. > You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the > weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- > and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing > disorder. > > A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was > something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? > What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of > the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but > painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would > release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- > inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local > area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores > responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules > would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary > vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an > immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. > > What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is > immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the > immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For > starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned > people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities > here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a > generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would > respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be > anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory > agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by > individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some > with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules > but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ > from others to account for these difference, for example. > > But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, > some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the > dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune > sytem. > > Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control > skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but > not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, > but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to > immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected > to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other > factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder > also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- > pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of > which are also thought to have a genetic basis. > > So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides > doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but > may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* > be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing > immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into > the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- > immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase > to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the > other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO > synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just > decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in > too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down > completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory > mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. > > I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many > people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with > thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I > didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is > disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory > so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD > > > > > > -- > Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the subject when replying to a digest ! > > See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 Since the subject of auto-immune has come up does any one else have vitilligo? I only have it on my face and neck - so without makeup to even out my skin color I look strange - red (rosacea) patches and white (vitilligo) patches. Luckily I have fair completion. Re: Dr. Lerner and Nitric Oxide Experiments > > > > Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well > > be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as > > originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or > > imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic > > science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities > > as well. > > > > I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of > > my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. > > That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime > > a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing > > compared to another good theory. > > > > Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after > > reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and > > thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe > > that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily > > a vascular disorder. > > > > Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face > > hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek > > would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin > > to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't > > something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - > > - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being > > stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. > > > > Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep > > or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. > > You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the > > weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- > > and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing > > disorder. > > > > A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was > > something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? > > What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of > > the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but > > painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would > > release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- > > inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local > > area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores > > responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules > > would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary > > vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an > > immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. > > > > What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is > > immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the > > immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For > > starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned > > people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities > > here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a > > generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would > > respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be > > anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti-inflammatory > > agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by > > individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some > > with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules > > but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or > > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ > > from others to account for these difference, for example. > > > > But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, > > some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the > > dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune > > sytem. > > > > Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control > > skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but > > not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, > > but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to > > immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected > > to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other > > factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder > > also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- > > pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of > > which are also thought to have a genetic basis. > > > > So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides > > doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but > > may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* > > be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing > > immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into > > the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- > > immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase > > to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the > > other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO > > synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just > > decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in > > too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down > > completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory > > mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. > > > > I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many > > people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with > > thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I > > didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is > > disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory > > so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. > > > > Marjorie > > > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group > (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't > give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the > subject when replying to a digest ! > > > > See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. > > > > To leave the list send an email to > rosacea-support-unsubscribe > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 Last semester I had a teacher who had a fair case of psoriasis, and I worked up the courage to ask her about the condition without making myself look like too much of a jackass. She said she has taken medication that lessens the immune system's response ( forget the name ) and that her skin is now much improved. Anyone else doing the same for rosacea? Perhaps if we find enough people that have taken any of these type medications against the immune system we'll be closer to drawing a correlation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2002 Report Share Posted May 18, 2002 rosacea has two primary components, vascular AND immunologic. superimposed as complicating factors on these components is the infective component. (either p. acnes, staph (epidermis or aureus), yeasts or fungi, or gram negatives, or possibly demodex, or some combination -- depending on the individual) as topical therapy sulfoxyl covers all infective components and acts as an anti-inflammatory. plus the vehicle is non comedogenic. as oral therapy, minocycline and zithromax cover the greatest range of the infective components and provide anti-inflammatory/immunologic suppression in the skin action. Dapsone is the highest anti-inflammatory of all the oral therapy sans steriods. Yet, its anti-infective spectrum is lacking so it should be supplemented with either minocycline or zithromax. Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well > be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as > originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or > imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic > science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities > as well. > > I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of > my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. > That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime > a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing > compared to another good theory. > > Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after > reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and > thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe > that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily > a vascular disorder. > > Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face > hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek > would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin > to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't > something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - > - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being > stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. > > Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep > or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. > You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the > weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- > and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing > disorder. > > A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was > something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? > What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of > the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but > painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would > release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- > inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local > area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores > responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules > would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary > vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an > immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. > > What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is > immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the > immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For > starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned > people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities > here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a > generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would > respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be > anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti- inflammatory > agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by > individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some > with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules > but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ > from others to account for these difference, for example. > > But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, > some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the > dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune > sytem. > > Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control > skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but > not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, > but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to > immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected > to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other > factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder > also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- > pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of > which are also thought to have a genetic basis. > > So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides > doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but > may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* > be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing > immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into > the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- > immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase > to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the > other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO > synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just > decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in > too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down > completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory > mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. > > I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many > people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with > thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I > didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is > disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory > so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD > > > > > > -- > Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the subject when replying to a digest ! > > See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe@y... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2002 Report Share Posted May 18, 2002 rosacea has two primary components, vascular AND immunologic. superimposed as complicating factors on these components is the infective component. (either p. acnes, staph (epidermis or aureus), yeasts or fungi, or gram negatives, or possibly demodex, or some combination -- depending on the individual) as topical therapy sulfoxyl covers all infective components and acts as an anti-inflammatory. plus the vehicle is non comedogenic. as oral therapy, minocycline and zithromax cover the greatest range of the infective components and provide anti-inflammatory/immunologic suppression in the skin action. Dapsone is the highest anti-inflammatory of all the oral therapy sans steriods. Yet, its anti-infective spectrum is lacking so it should be supplemented with either minocycline or zithromax. Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well > be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as > originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or > imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic > science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities > as well. > > I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of > my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. > That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime > a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing > compared to another good theory. > > Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after > reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and > thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe > that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily > a vascular disorder. > > Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face > hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek > would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin > to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't > something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - > - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being > stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. > > Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep > or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. > You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the > weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- > and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing > disorder. > > A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was > something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? > What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of > the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but > painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would > release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- > inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local > area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores > responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules > would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary > vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an > immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. > > What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is > immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the > immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For > starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned > people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities > here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a > generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would > respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be > anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti- inflammatory > agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by > individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some > with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules > but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ > from others to account for these difference, for example. > > But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, > some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the > dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune > sytem. > > Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control > skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but > not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, > but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to > immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected > to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other > factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder > also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- > pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of > which are also thought to have a genetic basis. > > So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides > doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but > may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* > be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing > immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into > the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- > immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase > to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the > other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO > synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just > decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in > too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down > completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory > mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. > > I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many > people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with > thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I > didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is > disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory > so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD > > > > > > -- > Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the subject when replying to a digest ! > > See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe@y... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2002 Report Share Posted May 18, 2002 rosacea has two primary components, vascular AND immunologic. superimposed as complicating factors on these components is the infective component. (either p. acnes, staph (epidermis or aureus), yeasts or fungi, or gram negatives, or possibly demodex, or some combination -- depending on the individual) as topical therapy sulfoxyl covers all infective components and acts as an anti-inflammatory. plus the vehicle is non comedogenic. as oral therapy, minocycline and zithromax cover the greatest range of the infective components and provide anti-inflammatory/immunologic suppression in the skin action. Dapsone is the highest anti-inflammatory of all the oral therapy sans steriods. Yet, its anti-infective spectrum is lacking so it should be supplemented with either minocycline or zithromax. Adam, that's an intellectually sophisticated observation. It may well > be that NO isn't as involved in rosacea-induced flushing as > originally hypothesized, or it may be that imperfect research and/or > imperfect topical preparations are delaying the transition from basic > science to practical clinical benefits. There are other possibilities > as well. > > I have another theory, although I say this with full realization of > my limited knowledge base, that I'm probably totally wrong. > That's the thing with theories -- they sound great but they're a dime > a dozen to create, and unless they're proven they mean nothing > compared to another good theory. > > Anyway, with that disclaimer, here's my thinking at present: after > reading the stories here, learning more on a number of levels, and > thinking about it over the past few months, I'm coming to believe > that rosacea is primarily an immune-mediated disorder, not primarily > a vascular disorder. > > Let me explain by way of this example: if I were to hit your face > hard, strike your cheek several times, in short order your cheek > would turn red and begin to hurt: the skin on your cheek would begin > to flush and burn. We both know that the cause of the flush wasn't > something out of the blue, wasn't something due to vascular problems - > - your cheek's flush and pain is a normal response to the skin being > stimulated, " injured " by my slaps. > > Now, imagine if you didn't know that I slapped you -- you were asleep > or drunk or something -- and woke up with a flushed, painful cheek. > You would try to attribute that flush to something -- food, the > weather, the UV lights in the club the night before, stress at work -- > and, failing to do that, you would think you had a primary flushing > disorder. > > A slap is a pretty obvious stimuli to a flush, but what if there was > something just as likely to induce a flush but wasn't so obvious? > What if an immune-related substance was inside the dermis layer of > the cheek -- something that would irritate like a slap, but > painlessly at first and from within? This unknown substance would > release a cascade of chemical reactions typical for soon-to-be- > inflammed skin: it would attract increased blood flow to the local > area, pain and swelling and itching might develop, and as the pores > responded to the inflammation within a day or so pustules and papules > would develop as well. The cheek would flush not because of a primary > vascular abnormality but because of something that tripped an > immunologic reaction, a reaction that included vascular dilation. > > What are the features of this hidden substance that we theorize is > immunologically active (meaning that it capable of initiating the > immunologic cascade, as described in the above paragraph)? For > starters, it would be disproportionally represented in fair skinned > people -- others could get it too, but we're talking generalities > here. It would slowly manifest over one or more decades -- again a > generality, but typically true. Also as a generality, many would > respond to 6-12 week course of antibiotics which is thought to be > anti-inflammatory; indeed, it's responsive to many anti- inflammatory > agents. Finally, the myriad of manifestations could be explained by > individual variance within the common immune active pathway -- some > with more flushing than others, some with itching, many with papules > but not everyone, etc. None of these sound like problems with food or > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't differ > from others to account for these difference, for example. > > But a genetic cause for the inflammation could account for all this, > some aberrant gene that now codes for a substance that goes to the > dermis of the central face and stimulates some part of the immune > sytem. > > Perhaps the gene is located close enough to the genes that control > skin pigment so that the two traits would travel together most but > not all of the time. Or, the aberrant gene is present in many people, > but those with fair skin are for some reason especially sensitive to > immune aberration. The gene need not, in fact would not be expected > to follow classic Mendelian genetics. It might be inducible by other > factors, or only partially expressed. A primary immunologic disorder > also nicely accounts for the association (not causal, but observed co- > pairing) of rosacea with other immune-related disorders, many of > which are also thought to have a genetic basis. > > So, that's how I would explain why the research on neuropeptides > doesn't seem to be panning out. Neuropeptides are likely involved but > may not be the primary culprit causing facial flushing, it may *not* > be that repeated dilations lead to vascular wall injury, causing > immune active substances already present in the blood to leak into > the dermis of the central face. It may be the other way around -- > immune active substances already in the dermis activate NO synthase > to increase NO production and cause vasodilation, along with the > other immune responses. As a dependent rather than causal agent, NO > synthase would probably have to be completely shut down, not just > decreased as would be the case if it were more active or present in > too high amounts, as the vascular theory explains. Shutting it down > completely may be very hard to do, because of all the compensatory > mechanisms that would prevent complete breakdown of vasodilation. > > I don't have nearly enough knowledge to defend this, but I know many > people favor rosacea as primarily an immunologic disorder with > thinking along this line. When I first learned about rosacea I > didn't buy it, but now, increasingly, I do. This group is > disproportionally, almost exclusively, favoring the vascular theory > so we don't talk about other mainstream medical theories much. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD > > > > > > -- > Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the subject when replying to a digest ! > > See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support-unsubscribe@y... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2002 Report Share Posted May 18, 2002 > > " None of these sound like problems with food or > > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't > > differ from others to account for these difference, for example " . > I agree to a point, but also disagree with the part that food or > stress management don't play much of a role in this condition... Eliza, my point was that fair-skinned people don't eat differently or suffer/deal with stress differently than their darker-skinned rosaceans (unless it's really true that blondes have more fun ). Seriously, if they did eat or stress out differently, then that might account for the difference in incidence of rosacea in fair vs darker skinned individuals. But they don't, so it doesn't seem likely to me that food or stress are major factors in rosacea. See my point now? I've not read anyone doubting that stress decreases immune function, just not to the extent that many believe it does. > ...A recent theroy > has linked ITP to H. pilory infection... What you said about ITP is very clear. It was fashionable a few years ago to attribute everything to H. pylori infections (including rosacea). Now, it's fashionable to denounce the connection. For example: -=-=-= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11843840&dopt=Abstract Br J Haematol 2001 Dec;115(4):1002-3 Absence of platelet response after eradication of Helicobacter pylori infection in patients with chronic idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura. Jarque I, Andreu R, Llopis I, De la Rubia J, Gomis F, Senent L, Jimenez C, G, ez JA, Sanz GF, Ponce J, Sanz MA. Haematology Services, Hospital Universitario La Fe, Av. Campanar. 21, 46009 Valencia, Spain. Eradication of Helicobacter pylori infection has been associated with the correction of thrombocytopenia in patients with idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP). We have analysed the response to eradication of H. pylori in a series of 56 adult patients with chronic ITP. Forty patients had H. pylori infection (71%) that was eradicated in 23 of 32 evaluable patients (72%). Platelet counts did not significantly vary according to H. pylori treatment outcome. Three of 56 patients (5%) achieved a partial response attributable to H. pylori eradication. Therefore, detection of H. pylori infection should not be routinely included in the initial work-up of ITP. -=-=-= My understanding is that H. pylori is one of the causes of refractory ITP (and perhaps rosacea that is refractory to all therapy as well), but not something to be considered for the majority with mainstream ITP (or rosacea, or any of the other illnesses that are being attributed to H. pylori infection nowadays -- except ulcers ). > About food, I believe the gastrointestinal tract acts as a > secretory organ... I'm not sure what you mean by " believe. " The stomach and small intestines secretes hormones, neuropeptides, enzymes...that's fact, not belief. >...and an immune sensing device responsible for immunization > against incoming antigens and tolerance to frequently appearing > antigens. Right, that's normal functioning, transient large molecule permeability as part of all GI cell turnover and also permanently with specific portions of the GI tract (Peyer's patch, if I recall correctly). > The permeability of the GIT determines how much antigenic > material get inside, and maybe this plays a role as to how food > triggers vary so much amongst rosacea sufferers. I think it's important not to exaggerate this normal phenomenon out of proportion, and attribute health problems to GI permeability as if the ideal is GI impermeability. I don't appreciate the link between food and rosacea. I do think a subset of diagnosed rosaceas suffer from food allergies/intolerances that manifest as dermatitis on their face, with or without an underlying rosacea. Why can't we attribute the development of food intolerance to the normal transient permeability of food molecules through the gut -- why postulate increased permeability or think that changing the GI's permeability will improve health, is there? (That's not to say that people on antibiotics shouldn't replenish their GI flora with lactobacilli with, for example, yogurt. That will help much of the diarrhea and candida infections, and some of the interference in metabolizing other drugs used with antibiotics.) > It could very well be an aberrant substance, but it can be as > simple > as differences between people in the gene coding for GIT > permeability, hence, for some the response is not as harmless as it > is supposed to be. I doubt it, since increased GI permeability would primarily manifest as malabsorption with lots of diarrhea, failure to thrive, etc. Even if a more subtle manifestation, diarrhea and other GI symptoms would be expected to play some part of the symptom complex of rosacea, and they clearly aren't; rosacea is a local disease. > Or maybe a gene coding for the auto-antibody > directed specifically towards, lets say, the vascular bed of the > face (such as in the autoimmune vasculitis. I don't think rosacea is an autoimmune disorder, since there are not (to my knowledge) a specific autoantibody or increase in the antibody portion of the blood test (gamma globulins), which is a necessary -- though not sufficient -- condition to call something an autoimmune disorder. I think it's associated with autoimmune conditions (such as ITP), but why isn't clear. Also, consider that a localized inflammatory vasculitis would not manifest as rosacea. For example, think of how temporal arteritis presents. Hypersensitivity vasculitis, which is a small vessel vasculitis (though systemic, not local like TA), has a skin manifestiation, but it's urticarial. > I find it unlikely to > be an immune damage due to substances applied to surface of the skin > of the face mainly because the lysozymes that the skin secrete are > the main substances responsible for antigen protection and not > antibodies. Again, I am just theorizing here. Sounds interesting, but I'm really not following what you're saying here. cea is a dermal disease, not an epidermal disease. The biopsies demonstrate a dermal infiltration of chronic inflammation (see http://medlib.med.utah.edu/kw/derm/pages/ac23_2.htm), not an epidermal infiltration as one would find in, for example, hives. You're closer to all this physiology stuff than I am, so I don't remember lysozymes and the skin, but aren't the lysozymes you're referring to secreted in the epidermis? An allergic dermatitis on the surface of the skin -- a true allergy such as in persons with an allergy to nickle-containing eyeglasses -- may look like rosacea, but it isn't. An irritation from an ingredient in a skin care product can produce an inflammation too -- unlike an allergy that's not an immune process, and it also isn't rosacea. Both can worsen an underlying rosacea, of course. > Could you get some funding to start a research project on this > hypothesis? (I'm kind of kidding, but it would be great if this > became true!) You're just looking for an easy fourth-year elective that will give you some research experience for your residency applications. You know I'd be an easy Honors grade for you. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2002 Report Share Posted May 18, 2002 > > " None of these sound like problems with food or > > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't > > differ from others to account for these difference, for example " . > I agree to a point, but also disagree with the part that food or > stress management don't play much of a role in this condition... Eliza, my point was that fair-skinned people don't eat differently or suffer/deal with stress differently than their darker-skinned rosaceans (unless it's really true that blondes have more fun ). Seriously, if they did eat or stress out differently, then that might account for the difference in incidence of rosacea in fair vs darker skinned individuals. But they don't, so it doesn't seem likely to me that food or stress are major factors in rosacea. See my point now? I've not read anyone doubting that stress decreases immune function, just not to the extent that many believe it does. > ...A recent theroy > has linked ITP to H. pilory infection... What you said about ITP is very clear. It was fashionable a few years ago to attribute everything to H. pylori infections (including rosacea). Now, it's fashionable to denounce the connection. For example: -=-=-= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11843840&dopt=Abstract Br J Haematol 2001 Dec;115(4):1002-3 Absence of platelet response after eradication of Helicobacter pylori infection in patients with chronic idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura. Jarque I, Andreu R, Llopis I, De la Rubia J, Gomis F, Senent L, Jimenez C, G, ez JA, Sanz GF, Ponce J, Sanz MA. Haematology Services, Hospital Universitario La Fe, Av. Campanar. 21, 46009 Valencia, Spain. Eradication of Helicobacter pylori infection has been associated with the correction of thrombocytopenia in patients with idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP). We have analysed the response to eradication of H. pylori in a series of 56 adult patients with chronic ITP. Forty patients had H. pylori infection (71%) that was eradicated in 23 of 32 evaluable patients (72%). Platelet counts did not significantly vary according to H. pylori treatment outcome. Three of 56 patients (5%) achieved a partial response attributable to H. pylori eradication. Therefore, detection of H. pylori infection should not be routinely included in the initial work-up of ITP. -=-=-= My understanding is that H. pylori is one of the causes of refractory ITP (and perhaps rosacea that is refractory to all therapy as well), but not something to be considered for the majority with mainstream ITP (or rosacea, or any of the other illnesses that are being attributed to H. pylori infection nowadays -- except ulcers ). > About food, I believe the gastrointestinal tract acts as a > secretory organ... I'm not sure what you mean by " believe. " The stomach and small intestines secretes hormones, neuropeptides, enzymes...that's fact, not belief. >...and an immune sensing device responsible for immunization > against incoming antigens and tolerance to frequently appearing > antigens. Right, that's normal functioning, transient large molecule permeability as part of all GI cell turnover and also permanently with specific portions of the GI tract (Peyer's patch, if I recall correctly). > The permeability of the GIT determines how much antigenic > material get inside, and maybe this plays a role as to how food > triggers vary so much amongst rosacea sufferers. I think it's important not to exaggerate this normal phenomenon out of proportion, and attribute health problems to GI permeability as if the ideal is GI impermeability. I don't appreciate the link between food and rosacea. I do think a subset of diagnosed rosaceas suffer from food allergies/intolerances that manifest as dermatitis on their face, with or without an underlying rosacea. Why can't we attribute the development of food intolerance to the normal transient permeability of food molecules through the gut -- why postulate increased permeability or think that changing the GI's permeability will improve health, is there? (That's not to say that people on antibiotics shouldn't replenish their GI flora with lactobacilli with, for example, yogurt. That will help much of the diarrhea and candida infections, and some of the interference in metabolizing other drugs used with antibiotics.) > It could very well be an aberrant substance, but it can be as > simple > as differences between people in the gene coding for GIT > permeability, hence, for some the response is not as harmless as it > is supposed to be. I doubt it, since increased GI permeability would primarily manifest as malabsorption with lots of diarrhea, failure to thrive, etc. Even if a more subtle manifestation, diarrhea and other GI symptoms would be expected to play some part of the symptom complex of rosacea, and they clearly aren't; rosacea is a local disease. > Or maybe a gene coding for the auto-antibody > directed specifically towards, lets say, the vascular bed of the > face (such as in the autoimmune vasculitis. I don't think rosacea is an autoimmune disorder, since there are not (to my knowledge) a specific autoantibody or increase in the antibody portion of the blood test (gamma globulins), which is a necessary -- though not sufficient -- condition to call something an autoimmune disorder. I think it's associated with autoimmune conditions (such as ITP), but why isn't clear. Also, consider that a localized inflammatory vasculitis would not manifest as rosacea. For example, think of how temporal arteritis presents. Hypersensitivity vasculitis, which is a small vessel vasculitis (though systemic, not local like TA), has a skin manifestiation, but it's urticarial. > I find it unlikely to > be an immune damage due to substances applied to surface of the skin > of the face mainly because the lysozymes that the skin secrete are > the main substances responsible for antigen protection and not > antibodies. Again, I am just theorizing here. Sounds interesting, but I'm really not following what you're saying here. cea is a dermal disease, not an epidermal disease. The biopsies demonstrate a dermal infiltration of chronic inflammation (see http://medlib.med.utah.edu/kw/derm/pages/ac23_2.htm), not an epidermal infiltration as one would find in, for example, hives. You're closer to all this physiology stuff than I am, so I don't remember lysozymes and the skin, but aren't the lysozymes you're referring to secreted in the epidermis? An allergic dermatitis on the surface of the skin -- a true allergy such as in persons with an allergy to nickle-containing eyeglasses -- may look like rosacea, but it isn't. An irritation from an ingredient in a skin care product can produce an inflammation too -- unlike an allergy that's not an immune process, and it also isn't rosacea. Both can worsen an underlying rosacea, of course. > Could you get some funding to start a research project on this > hypothesis? (I'm kind of kidding, but it would be great if this > became true!) You're just looking for an easy fourth-year elective that will give you some research experience for your residency applications. You know I'd be an easy Honors grade for you. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2002 Report Share Posted May 18, 2002 > > " None of these sound like problems with food or > > problems with stress management -- fair-skinned people don't > > differ from others to account for these difference, for example " . > I agree to a point, but also disagree with the part that food or > stress management don't play much of a role in this condition... Eliza, my point was that fair-skinned people don't eat differently or suffer/deal with stress differently than their darker-skinned rosaceans (unless it's really true that blondes have more fun ). Seriously, if they did eat or stress out differently, then that might account for the difference in incidence of rosacea in fair vs darker skinned individuals. But they don't, so it doesn't seem likely to me that food or stress are major factors in rosacea. See my point now? I've not read anyone doubting that stress decreases immune function, just not to the extent that many believe it does. > ...A recent theroy > has linked ITP to H. pilory infection... What you said about ITP is very clear. It was fashionable a few years ago to attribute everything to H. pylori infections (including rosacea). Now, it's fashionable to denounce the connection. For example: -=-=-= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11843840&dopt=Abstract Br J Haematol 2001 Dec;115(4):1002-3 Absence of platelet response after eradication of Helicobacter pylori infection in patients with chronic idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura. Jarque I, Andreu R, Llopis I, De la Rubia J, Gomis F, Senent L, Jimenez C, G, ez JA, Sanz GF, Ponce J, Sanz MA. Haematology Services, Hospital Universitario La Fe, Av. Campanar. 21, 46009 Valencia, Spain. Eradication of Helicobacter pylori infection has been associated with the correction of thrombocytopenia in patients with idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP). We have analysed the response to eradication of H. pylori in a series of 56 adult patients with chronic ITP. Forty patients had H. pylori infection (71%) that was eradicated in 23 of 32 evaluable patients (72%). Platelet counts did not significantly vary according to H. pylori treatment outcome. Three of 56 patients (5%) achieved a partial response attributable to H. pylori eradication. Therefore, detection of H. pylori infection should not be routinely included in the initial work-up of ITP. -=-=-= My understanding is that H. pylori is one of the causes of refractory ITP (and perhaps rosacea that is refractory to all therapy as well), but not something to be considered for the majority with mainstream ITP (or rosacea, or any of the other illnesses that are being attributed to H. pylori infection nowadays -- except ulcers ). > About food, I believe the gastrointestinal tract acts as a > secretory organ... I'm not sure what you mean by " believe. " The stomach and small intestines secretes hormones, neuropeptides, enzymes...that's fact, not belief. >...and an immune sensing device responsible for immunization > against incoming antigens and tolerance to frequently appearing > antigens. Right, that's normal functioning, transient large molecule permeability as part of all GI cell turnover and also permanently with specific portions of the GI tract (Peyer's patch, if I recall correctly). > The permeability of the GIT determines how much antigenic > material get inside, and maybe this plays a role as to how food > triggers vary so much amongst rosacea sufferers. I think it's important not to exaggerate this normal phenomenon out of proportion, and attribute health problems to GI permeability as if the ideal is GI impermeability. I don't appreciate the link between food and rosacea. I do think a subset of diagnosed rosaceas suffer from food allergies/intolerances that manifest as dermatitis on their face, with or without an underlying rosacea. Why can't we attribute the development of food intolerance to the normal transient permeability of food molecules through the gut -- why postulate increased permeability or think that changing the GI's permeability will improve health, is there? (That's not to say that people on antibiotics shouldn't replenish their GI flora with lactobacilli with, for example, yogurt. That will help much of the diarrhea and candida infections, and some of the interference in metabolizing other drugs used with antibiotics.) > It could very well be an aberrant substance, but it can be as > simple > as differences between people in the gene coding for GIT > permeability, hence, for some the response is not as harmless as it > is supposed to be. I doubt it, since increased GI permeability would primarily manifest as malabsorption with lots of diarrhea, failure to thrive, etc. Even if a more subtle manifestation, diarrhea and other GI symptoms would be expected to play some part of the symptom complex of rosacea, and they clearly aren't; rosacea is a local disease. > Or maybe a gene coding for the auto-antibody > directed specifically towards, lets say, the vascular bed of the > face (such as in the autoimmune vasculitis. I don't think rosacea is an autoimmune disorder, since there are not (to my knowledge) a specific autoantibody or increase in the antibody portion of the blood test (gamma globulins), which is a necessary -- though not sufficient -- condition to call something an autoimmune disorder. I think it's associated with autoimmune conditions (such as ITP), but why isn't clear. Also, consider that a localized inflammatory vasculitis would not manifest as rosacea. For example, think of how temporal arteritis presents. Hypersensitivity vasculitis, which is a small vessel vasculitis (though systemic, not local like TA), has a skin manifestiation, but it's urticarial. > I find it unlikely to > be an immune damage due to substances applied to surface of the skin > of the face mainly because the lysozymes that the skin secrete are > the main substances responsible for antigen protection and not > antibodies. Again, I am just theorizing here. Sounds interesting, but I'm really not following what you're saying here. cea is a dermal disease, not an epidermal disease. The biopsies demonstrate a dermal infiltration of chronic inflammation (see http://medlib.med.utah.edu/kw/derm/pages/ac23_2.htm), not an epidermal infiltration as one would find in, for example, hives. You're closer to all this physiology stuff than I am, so I don't remember lysozymes and the skin, but aren't the lysozymes you're referring to secreted in the epidermis? An allergic dermatitis on the surface of the skin -- a true allergy such as in persons with an allergy to nickle-containing eyeglasses -- may look like rosacea, but it isn't. An irritation from an ingredient in a skin care product can produce an inflammation too -- unlike an allergy that's not an immune process, and it also isn't rosacea. Both can worsen an underlying rosacea, of course. > Could you get some funding to start a research project on this > hypothesis? (I'm kind of kidding, but it would be great if this > became true!) You're just looking for an easy fourth-year elective that will give you some research experience for your residency applications. You know I'd be an easy Honors grade for you. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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