Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 Hi, I only scan this forum on occasion these days, but today happened to be the day. Here is link to my final post about experiences with photoderm and Zenda -Lat: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rosacea-support/message/28520 Net: I was very pleased with her approach and committment to treating me, but I do not believe I saw any substantial improvement. /begin{tirade} I will say that I am quite negative on photoderm, in general, based on the experiences of people on this board. My rough take is that well over 50% of the posts about photoderm indicate a fair level of dissatisfaction. (There are notable success stories: JimC, Beth, come to mind). I have also corresponded with or seen two rosacea experts (one at Yale and one at Harvard), both of whom have expressed a degree of cynicism about the procedure, specifically the unpublished claims of flushing mitigation as a result of somehow miraculously zapping the feeder vessels. ESC physicists can argue all they want about deeper penetration at higher wavelengths above the pulsed dye 585 nm, but this doesn't mean necessarily that it does anything useful. Yale guy literally wrote the book on microcirculation, and after I gave him a quick white-board lecture on these arguments and left him some papers, he emailed me back saying he could not accept any of this (essential argument: destroying feeder vessels will cause other problems more serious than flushing). I've posted in the past (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rosacea-support/message/28705) about total lack of rigor in any photoderm studies to date. But the photoderm practititioners are too busy making money to bother with mundane science. For example, one woman here posted that she has had 14 treatements, and her doctor keeps telling her that, in the end, it will all work out. When will the end be: when she runs out of money, or he retires? Two other people I know who did 5 photoderms with -Lat voted with their feet: they both subsequently decided to do pulsed dye, because they were willing to take the 10-day+ downtime to get some clearance. Again, this is a statement about photoderm, not Zenda. \end{tirade} My answer: if you really want to give photoderm a fair shake, I highly recommend Zenda. If you want save some money, and want potentially quicker results (and can tolerate the bruising, a tough call for anyone), skip the photoderm and do pulsed dye (others here have gone to Ross Levy in Mt Kisco, NY.) Rick > HI, Wondering what the outcome was from Rick's photoderm treatments > in Paramus with Dr -Lat, or anyone else who has been treated by > this Dr. Have had 5 photoderm treatments done around 2 years ago > with no success. Also have had 2 pulsed dye laser treatments done > this year with successful clearing of some of the redness. I have had > rosacea for 9 years. After reading Dr Nase's book I am wondering if > I should try photoderm again. Any info on this Dr would be > appreciated. Also does anyone know how I can reach Rick? THANKS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 Hi, I only scan this forum on occasion these days, but today happened to be the day. Here is link to my final post about experiences with photoderm and Zenda -Lat: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rosacea-support/message/28520 Net: I was very pleased with her approach and committment to treating me, but I do not believe I saw any substantial improvement. /begin{tirade} I will say that I am quite negative on photoderm, in general, based on the experiences of people on this board. My rough take is that well over 50% of the posts about photoderm indicate a fair level of dissatisfaction. (There are notable success stories: JimC, Beth, come to mind). I have also corresponded with or seen two rosacea experts (one at Yale and one at Harvard), both of whom have expressed a degree of cynicism about the procedure, specifically the unpublished claims of flushing mitigation as a result of somehow miraculously zapping the feeder vessels. ESC physicists can argue all they want about deeper penetration at higher wavelengths above the pulsed dye 585 nm, but this doesn't mean necessarily that it does anything useful. Yale guy literally wrote the book on microcirculation, and after I gave him a quick white-board lecture on these arguments and left him some papers, he emailed me back saying he could not accept any of this (essential argument: destroying feeder vessels will cause other problems more serious than flushing). I've posted in the past (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rosacea-support/message/28705) about total lack of rigor in any photoderm studies to date. But the photoderm practititioners are too busy making money to bother with mundane science. For example, one woman here posted that she has had 14 treatements, and her doctor keeps telling her that, in the end, it will all work out. When will the end be: when she runs out of money, or he retires? Two other people I know who did 5 photoderms with -Lat voted with their feet: they both subsequently decided to do pulsed dye, because they were willing to take the 10-day+ downtime to get some clearance. Again, this is a statement about photoderm, not Zenda. \end{tirade} My answer: if you really want to give photoderm a fair shake, I highly recommend Zenda. If you want save some money, and want potentially quicker results (and can tolerate the bruising, a tough call for anyone), skip the photoderm and do pulsed dye (others here have gone to Ross Levy in Mt Kisco, NY.) Rick > HI, Wondering what the outcome was from Rick's photoderm treatments > in Paramus with Dr -Lat, or anyone else who has been treated by > this Dr. Have had 5 photoderm treatments done around 2 years ago > with no success. Also have had 2 pulsed dye laser treatments done > this year with successful clearing of some of the redness. I have had > rosacea for 9 years. After reading Dr Nase's book I am wondering if > I should try photoderm again. Any info on this Dr would be > appreciated. Also does anyone know how I can reach Rick? THANKS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 Hi, I know Rick has really done a lot of research on Photoderm, much more than myself. I too would like some more rigorous studies done on it just because of the many people who haven't had relief from their symptoms. I remember in mid 1999 we had a poster, who lived in the midwest, who traveled to see Dr. Bitter, Sr., in Los Gatos, CA for a series of six or so photoderm treatments. The poster told me that they had no relief of symptoms after these treatments. I felt so bad because I know how expensive photoderm is coupled with traveling costs and time off from work. On the other hand, there are lots of success stories in our archives. I don't know why some people are successful and some aren't. With no studies on this subject, I don't think we'll ever know. It's like betting with 1 in 2 odds in favor. I know some people who've been unsuccessful with photoderm have had success with vbeam or pulse-dye technologies. When you hear stories like that, it doesn't make me believe that Photoderm is one of the better " laser-type " technologies for rosacea out there. I know the reasons that Dr. Nase gives in his book for Photoderm being the superior treatment, but I think this is open to debate and deserves a rigorous study like Rick suggests. Personally, I didn't have the extra money to do Photoderm back when Dr. Nase first started posting about it. Now I do, and I've been able to control my rosacea through his other non-invasive methods like using gentle cleansers, the right oils and sunblock. Mark Bushauer's diet and Dr. Sy's anti-swelling treatment have all helped me as well. With the body of knowledge as it is now, if I felt I needed laser treatments, I would try Vbeam or pulsed-dye. I don't think I'd try photoderm. I know that Dr. Sy mentioned that she has reservations about laser- type treatments, and did mention a dermatologist friend of her's who performs pulsed-dye treatments on her rosacea patients. Her friend didn't think photoderm was helpful. Anyway, it's good to bring this subject up because photoderm is too expensive to take lightly. Take care, Matija > > HI, Wondering what the outcome was from Rick's photoderm treatments > > in Paramus with Dr -Lat, or anyone else who has been treated > by > > this Dr. Have had 5 photoderm treatments done around 2 years ago > > with no success. Also have had 2 pulsed dye laser treatments done > > this year with successful clearing of some of the redness. I have > had > > rosacea for 9 years. After reading Dr Nase's book I am wondering > if > > I should try photoderm again. Any info on this Dr would be > > appreciated. Also does anyone know how I can reach Rick? THANKS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 Are there anybody who has Dr Bitter's success rate ? I will be travelling from Sweden to Dr Bitter was my thougt to do photoderm, but now Im confused what to do... //Kajsa --- ruizdelvizo ruizdelvizo@...> skrev: > Hi, > > I know Rick has really done a lot of research on > Photoderm, much more > than myself. I too would like some more rigorous > studies done on it > just because of the many people who haven't had > relief from their > symptoms. > > I remember in mid 1999 we had a poster, who lived in > the midwest, who > traveled to see Dr. Bitter, Sr., in Los Gatos, CA > for a series of six > or so photoderm treatments. The poster told me that > they had no > relief of symptoms after these treatments. I felt so > bad because I > know how expensive photoderm is coupled with > traveling costs and time > off from work. > > On the other hand, there are lots of success stories > in our archives. > I don't know why some people are successful and some > aren't. With no > studies on this subject, I don't think we'll ever > know. It's like > betting with 1 in 2 odds in favor. > > I know some people who've been unsuccessful with > photoderm have had > success with vbeam or pulse-dye technologies. When > you hear stories > like that, it doesn't make me believe that Photoderm > is one of the > better " laser-type " technologies for rosacea out > there. I know the > reasons that Dr. Nase gives in his book for > Photoderm being the > superior treatment, but I think this is open to > debate and deserves a > rigorous study like Rick suggests. > > Personally, I didn't have the extra money to do > Photoderm back when > Dr. Nase first started posting about it. Now I do, > and I've been able > to control my rosacea through his other non-invasive > methods like > using gentle cleansers, the right oils and sunblock. > Mark Bushauer's > diet and Dr. Sy's anti-swelling treatment have all > helped me as > well. With the body of knowledge as it is now, if I > felt I needed > laser treatments, I would try Vbeam or pulsed-dye. I > don't think I'd > try photoderm. > > I know that Dr. Sy mentioned that she has > reservations about laser- > type treatments, and did mention a dermatologist > friend of her's who > performs pulsed-dye treatments on her rosacea > patients. Her friend > didn't think photoderm was helpful. > > Anyway, it's good to bring this subject up because > photoderm is too > expensive to take lightly. > > Take care, > Matija > > > > > > > HI, Wondering what the outcome was from Rick's > photoderm > treatments > > > in Paramus with Dr -Lat, or anyone else > who has been > treated > > by > > > this Dr. Have had 5 photoderm treatments done > around 2 years ago > > > with no success. Also have had 2 pulsed dye > laser treatments done > > > this year with successful clearing of some of > the redness. I have > > had > > > rosacea for 9 years. After reading Dr Nase's > book I am wondering > > if > === message truncated === _____________________________________________________ Hitta snörapporter... från 500 olika skidorter i Europa på http://se.snow.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 Are there anybody who has Dr Bitter's success rate ? I will be travelling from Sweden to Dr Bitter was my thougt to do photoderm, but now Im confused what to do... //Kajsa --- ruizdelvizo ruizdelvizo@...> skrev: > Hi, > > I know Rick has really done a lot of research on > Photoderm, much more > than myself. I too would like some more rigorous > studies done on it > just because of the many people who haven't had > relief from their > symptoms. > > I remember in mid 1999 we had a poster, who lived in > the midwest, who > traveled to see Dr. Bitter, Sr., in Los Gatos, CA > for a series of six > or so photoderm treatments. The poster told me that > they had no > relief of symptoms after these treatments. I felt so > bad because I > know how expensive photoderm is coupled with > traveling costs and time > off from work. > > On the other hand, there are lots of success stories > in our archives. > I don't know why some people are successful and some > aren't. With no > studies on this subject, I don't think we'll ever > know. It's like > betting with 1 in 2 odds in favor. > > I know some people who've been unsuccessful with > photoderm have had > success with vbeam or pulse-dye technologies. When > you hear stories > like that, it doesn't make me believe that Photoderm > is one of the > better " laser-type " technologies for rosacea out > there. I know the > reasons that Dr. Nase gives in his book for > Photoderm being the > superior treatment, but I think this is open to > debate and deserves a > rigorous study like Rick suggests. > > Personally, I didn't have the extra money to do > Photoderm back when > Dr. Nase first started posting about it. Now I do, > and I've been able > to control my rosacea through his other non-invasive > methods like > using gentle cleansers, the right oils and sunblock. > Mark Bushauer's > diet and Dr. Sy's anti-swelling treatment have all > helped me as > well. With the body of knowledge as it is now, if I > felt I needed > laser treatments, I would try Vbeam or pulsed-dye. I > don't think I'd > try photoderm. > > I know that Dr. Sy mentioned that she has > reservations about laser- > type treatments, and did mention a dermatologist > friend of her's who > performs pulsed-dye treatments on her rosacea > patients. Her friend > didn't think photoderm was helpful. > > Anyway, it's good to bring this subject up because > photoderm is too > expensive to take lightly. > > Take care, > Matija > > > > > > > HI, Wondering what the outcome was from Rick's > photoderm > treatments > > > in Paramus with Dr -Lat, or anyone else > who has been > treated > > by > > > this Dr. Have had 5 photoderm treatments done > around 2 years ago > > > with no success. Also have had 2 pulsed dye > laser treatments done > > > this year with successful clearing of some of > the redness. I have > > had > > > rosacea for 9 years. After reading Dr Nase's > book I am wondering > > if > === message truncated === _____________________________________________________ Hitta snörapporter... från 500 olika skidorter i Europa på http://se.snow.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 Are there anybody who has Dr Bitter's success rate ? I will be travelling from Sweden to Dr Bitter was my thougt to do photoderm, but now Im confused what to do... //Kajsa --- ruizdelvizo ruizdelvizo@...> skrev: > Hi, > > I know Rick has really done a lot of research on > Photoderm, much more > than myself. I too would like some more rigorous > studies done on it > just because of the many people who haven't had > relief from their > symptoms. > > I remember in mid 1999 we had a poster, who lived in > the midwest, who > traveled to see Dr. Bitter, Sr., in Los Gatos, CA > for a series of six > or so photoderm treatments. The poster told me that > they had no > relief of symptoms after these treatments. I felt so > bad because I > know how expensive photoderm is coupled with > traveling costs and time > off from work. > > On the other hand, there are lots of success stories > in our archives. > I don't know why some people are successful and some > aren't. With no > studies on this subject, I don't think we'll ever > know. It's like > betting with 1 in 2 odds in favor. > > I know some people who've been unsuccessful with > photoderm have had > success with vbeam or pulse-dye technologies. When > you hear stories > like that, it doesn't make me believe that Photoderm > is one of the > better " laser-type " technologies for rosacea out > there. I know the > reasons that Dr. Nase gives in his book for > Photoderm being the > superior treatment, but I think this is open to > debate and deserves a > rigorous study like Rick suggests. > > Personally, I didn't have the extra money to do > Photoderm back when > Dr. Nase first started posting about it. Now I do, > and I've been able > to control my rosacea through his other non-invasive > methods like > using gentle cleansers, the right oils and sunblock. > Mark Bushauer's > diet and Dr. Sy's anti-swelling treatment have all > helped me as > well. With the body of knowledge as it is now, if I > felt I needed > laser treatments, I would try Vbeam or pulsed-dye. I > don't think I'd > try photoderm. > > I know that Dr. Sy mentioned that she has > reservations about laser- > type treatments, and did mention a dermatologist > friend of her's who > performs pulsed-dye treatments on her rosacea > patients. Her friend > didn't think photoderm was helpful. > > Anyway, it's good to bring this subject up because > photoderm is too > expensive to take lightly. > > Take care, > Matija > > > > > > > HI, Wondering what the outcome was from Rick's > photoderm > treatments > > > in Paramus with Dr -Lat, or anyone else > who has been > treated > > by > > > this Dr. Have had 5 photoderm treatments done > around 2 years ago > > > with no success. Also have had 2 pulsed dye > laser treatments done > > > this year with successful clearing of some of > the redness. I have > > had > > > rosacea for 9 years. After reading Dr Nase's > book I am wondering > > if > === message truncated === _____________________________________________________ Hitta snörapporter... från 500 olika skidorter i Europa på http://se.snow.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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