Guest guest Posted March 18, 2002 Report Share Posted March 18, 2002 (from brady) > There is enough evidence that a diet high in sugar and > carbohydrates is a significant tripwire for rosacea even though the > National cea Society does not recognize this, nor do medical > authorities. However, one day a clinical study will prove this > beyond doubt, if someone with the credentials who has money, power > and courage will objectively investigate this. The > cea Diet Users Support Group gives enough evidence of this. > Most rosaceans do not want to change their diet lifestyle, but > prefer pills, topical treatments, IPL, and any treatment allowing > them to keep eating and drinking their current food and drink, so > this does not appeal to the vast majority of rosaceans. But, you > may be interested in researching this yourself. I don't know about your diet in particular, Brady -- please let me know if I'm missing something -- but in general the relationship between diet and the immune system is fairly well documented in the medical literature, both as a way of modulating the inflammatory response and in the area of food allergens. While certainly effective in decreasing chronic inflammation like rosacea, immune modulating diets (that strongly limit sugars, among other things) are notoriously difficult to stay on. ly, it's also easy to imagine untold long term health effects if these diets work by causing a decrease in general immune response, not just chronic inflammation. A person on an immune modulating diet who eats chocolate, for example, may well experience increased inflammation, but I wouldn't call that a rosacea trigger. I would view that as a return to normal manifestion of inflammation. Foods, drinks, and manner of cooking that increase facial flushing are rosacea triggers, and avoiding them makes obvious sense. That's not a food allergy, since allergies are stereotypic responses. Allergic rashes can sometimes be difficult to diagnose, especially when several rashes are present at the same time. But good allergists can tell with only a glance what's an allergic reaction on the face and what isn't. Thank you for your email, and I appreciate your letting me know about your diet. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 I agree that the extreme high protein low carb diets are not good. I have adhered to a modified Sugar Busters type diet for about 3 years now, because I was having serious blood sugar drops and felt tired all the time on the standard high carb diet. Most people don't realize how toxic processed simple carbs (white bread, pastries, even bagels) are. I do eat whole grain carbs and avoid any enriched or bleached flours. But I also eat fewer servings than I previously had. I believe this diet has improved, not compromised my immune system. In the 3 years I've been following it, I have not had one single illness, not even a cold. I tend to agree with those who think yeast has a negative impact on rosacea. > Hi, > > I was reading through your response below and was interested in your > saying that a high protein, low carbohydrate diet decreases general > immune response. I know that following such a diet causes ketosis. > Were you referring to that? I've tried following a high protein, low > carb diet and felt terrible. I think I was going through ketosis - > felt very dizzy and constipated. It was horrible. I didn't notice > much of change in my skin. > > Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate > diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my > height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also > eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my > calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 > times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my > meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- > 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I > follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to > gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first > place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed > the role of simple sugars triggering flares. > > Some people do have issues with food allergies triggering rosacea > flares. For me, I don't think this is an issue. I believe if I had > food allergies, I would get more symptoms than a flare on my face. I > might get swollen lips, eyes, tongue or worse suffer from > Anaphylaxis. (I have had those symptoms occur in the past, and my > skin has looked great.) I believe food allergies are caused by > histamine being released and causing IgE antibodies to form. I think > most people who react to histamine releasing foods with rosacea don't > have IgE antibodies forming and don't have food allergies. I think > that the damaged blood vessels in their face get dilated with the > extra amount of histamine in their bodies. If they didn't have > damaged blood vessels, they would not see a problem at all like non- > rosaceans do. The flushing would not occur. Some people are bothered > by histamine-releasing foods (the NRS and the NIH have lists) causing > flares. Some of those foods do that for me while some don't. For some > people, they aren't bothered by any foods at all. They have other > triggers - cold temperatures, excessive heat, etc. > > Taking all of these issues into consideration, I'm looking at page > 101 of Dr. Nase's book where he discusses " Substances Can Cause > Widespread Dilation and Trigger Facial Flushing...Foods,beverages, > medications and supplements contain natural dilator substances, and > can release dilators after being broken down in the gastrointestinal > tract. These are both normal events which occur in all humans. If > these substances reach high enough concentrations, they can cause > widespread dilation of blood vessels and trigger facial flushing. > This form of food flushing is, by far, the most common in rosacea > sufferers(normal byproducts of ingested substances causing dilation). > The hyper-reactive facial blood vessels of rosacea sufferers just > can't handle these substances, even at normal concentrations. Some of > the most important foods, beverages, medications, supplements that > can cause dilation include: Foods that contain or release histamine > (a potent dilator)...;foods or supplements that contain or release > dilator prostaglandins. The most common example is niacin...;eating > large amounts of simple sugars...can cause glucose levels in the > blood stream to rise quickly and trigger skin flushing... > > Anyway, sorry to go off on this tangent. There's been discussion on > this board about food allergies and rosacea. Some people have it, > but you don't have to have food allergies to react to histamines- > releasing foods as Dr. Nase points out. I would guess the majority of > people with rosacea who react to foods (many with rosacea don't react > to any foods at all) do not have food allergies. The minority > probably can list food allergies as a trigger. There's also been > discussion of simple sugars causing flares. I've noticed it in myself > and Dr. Nase does discuss this. > > Take care, > Matija > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 I agree that the extreme high protein low carb diets are not good. I have adhered to a modified Sugar Busters type diet for about 3 years now, because I was having serious blood sugar drops and felt tired all the time on the standard high carb diet. Most people don't realize how toxic processed simple carbs (white bread, pastries, even bagels) are. I do eat whole grain carbs and avoid any enriched or bleached flours. But I also eat fewer servings than I previously had. I believe this diet has improved, not compromised my immune system. In the 3 years I've been following it, I have not had one single illness, not even a cold. I tend to agree with those who think yeast has a negative impact on rosacea. > Hi, > > I was reading through your response below and was interested in your > saying that a high protein, low carbohydrate diet decreases general > immune response. I know that following such a diet causes ketosis. > Were you referring to that? I've tried following a high protein, low > carb diet and felt terrible. I think I was going through ketosis - > felt very dizzy and constipated. It was horrible. I didn't notice > much of change in my skin. > > Nonetheless, I do follow a moderate protein and moderate carbohydrate > diet. I get about 60 grams of protein a day (which is the rda for my > height and weight) and eat 6-7 servings of whole grains a day. I also > eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, along with 25% of my > calories coming from fat, mostly olive oil and nuts. I eat salmon 3 > times a week. I also try to abstain from sugar. I don't add any to my > meals and avoid processed foods with them. I do eat desserts about 2- > 3 times a week. I do notice that my skin is less reactive when I > follow that type of diet. I am also hypothyroid, and eat like this to > gain more energy. That's why I started eating this way in the first > place, and I did notice a change in my skin. Dr. Nase has discussed > the role of simple sugars triggering flares. > > Some people do have issues with food allergies triggering rosacea > flares. For me, I don't think this is an issue. I believe if I had > food allergies, I would get more symptoms than a flare on my face. I > might get swollen lips, eyes, tongue or worse suffer from > Anaphylaxis. (I have had those symptoms occur in the past, and my > skin has looked great.) I believe food allergies are caused by > histamine being released and causing IgE antibodies to form. I think > most people who react to histamine releasing foods with rosacea don't > have IgE antibodies forming and don't have food allergies. I think > that the damaged blood vessels in their face get dilated with the > extra amount of histamine in their bodies. If they didn't have > damaged blood vessels, they would not see a problem at all like non- > rosaceans do. The flushing would not occur. Some people are bothered > by histamine-releasing foods (the NRS and the NIH have lists) causing > flares. Some of those foods do that for me while some don't. For some > people, they aren't bothered by any foods at all. They have other > triggers - cold temperatures, excessive heat, etc. > > Taking all of these issues into consideration, I'm looking at page > 101 of Dr. Nase's book where he discusses " Substances Can Cause > Widespread Dilation and Trigger Facial Flushing...Foods,beverages, > medications and supplements contain natural dilator substances, and > can release dilators after being broken down in the gastrointestinal > tract. These are both normal events which occur in all humans. If > these substances reach high enough concentrations, they can cause > widespread dilation of blood vessels and trigger facial flushing. > This form of food flushing is, by far, the most common in rosacea > sufferers(normal byproducts of ingested substances causing dilation). > The hyper-reactive facial blood vessels of rosacea sufferers just > can't handle these substances, even at normal concentrations. Some of > the most important foods, beverages, medications, supplements that > can cause dilation include: Foods that contain or release histamine > (a potent dilator)...;foods or supplements that contain or release > dilator prostaglandins. The most common example is niacin...;eating > large amounts of simple sugars...can cause glucose levels in the > blood stream to rise quickly and trigger skin flushing... > > Anyway, sorry to go off on this tangent. There's been discussion on > this board about food allergies and rosacea. Some people have it, > but you don't have to have food allergies to react to histamines- > releasing foods as Dr. Nase points out. I would guess the majority of > people with rosacea who react to foods (many with rosacea don't react > to any foods at all) do not have food allergies. The minority > probably can list food allergies as a trigger. There's also been > discussion of simple sugars causing flares. I've noticed it in myself > and Dr. Nase does discuss this. > > Take care, > Matija > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 Hi Dr. Lazoff, About IgG, I was simply asking the poster for more information about it. I tried to look up information on it and just found something from a researcher from the National Institutes of Health. It seems you didn't read my reply that closely. From what you say below, you misinterpreted my reply to the poster. I think you need to ask the original poster about it rather than myself. About the eating plan I have, I wasn't asking for feedback from you. I was simply saying that the eating plan I was following for another reason seemed to help decrease the pinkness on my face. It is anecdotal, I know. However, it does work for me. Take care, Matija > Regarding another thread -- my understanding is that delayed > hypersensitivity reactions are mediated through T cells, not IgG. > Perhaps I missed what you were referring to? (This was in reference > to another poster expressing his belief that rosacea is a delayed > hypersensitivity to food allergy.) > > Matija, I truly regret if my reluctance to provide feedback on > personal information is disappointing. I hope you understand. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 Hi Dr. Lazoff, About IgG, I was simply asking the poster for more information about it. I tried to look up information on it and just found something from a researcher from the National Institutes of Health. It seems you didn't read my reply that closely. From what you say below, you misinterpreted my reply to the poster. I think you need to ask the original poster about it rather than myself. About the eating plan I have, I wasn't asking for feedback from you. I was simply saying that the eating plan I was following for another reason seemed to help decrease the pinkness on my face. It is anecdotal, I know. However, it does work for me. Take care, Matija > Regarding another thread -- my understanding is that delayed > hypersensitivity reactions are mediated through T cells, not IgG. > Perhaps I missed what you were referring to? (This was in reference > to another poster expressing his belief that rosacea is a delayed > hypersensitivity to food allergy.) > > Matija, I truly regret if my reluctance to provide feedback on > personal information is disappointing. I hope you understand. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 Hi Dr. Lazoff, I don't understand the connection with flushing related to food allergies and celiac disease. In Dr. Nase's book, he tends to discuss food allergies and celiac disease as being able to dilate damaged blood vessels. He does state that the majority of rosaceans don't have either issue. I don't think he had any references on how food allergies/celiac sprue could cause this. I don't have my book with me so I can't check. I will when I get home. I believe there are references to how histamine-releasing foods can cause flushing in some rosaceans. I know some rosaceans are lucky enough not to flush from histamine- releasing foods. I respect your point of view as a physician to question some of the things I and other people on the board say. I do like hearing all the opinions and anecdotes though I may not believe them based on my own experience or they may ring true with me. I'm grateful people have taken the trouble to let me know. In the medical community, much is unknown about rosacea and there are contradictions. When I was first diagnosed with rosacea in '94, I requested to be put on the NRS mailing list. I remember how they used to say that they didn't believe food had anything to do with rosacea flares, but some of their respondents did have the problem. Now, they do say it can happen probably because a study proved it in the interim. Just a quick search of Medline will give you one journal article on how the eradication of h. pylori does relieves the symptoms of rosacea and another article on how the eradication of h. pylori does nothing to relieve rosacea. Further, I've been told and heard that derms suggest using mild cleansers for rosacea like Cetaphil or Purpose. Both those burned my skin. I looked to this board for any suggestions and I received a few that were helpful. I asked my derm for any suggestions and he didn't know what else to tell me if those cleansers caused problems. I know you would agree that medical science does not have all the answers. I hope that medicine can provide the answers for rosaceans someday. I welcome that and want it. But I don't see many studies out there about rosacea and the facets of it that are discussed here. If I followed my derm's advice about Metrogel and the cleansers, my face would be pertually red and feel like it was burning. I don't have that anymore due to some suggestions that I read here. I'm glad to hear anecdotal stories because they might help. If the poster has it wrong or is completely offbase, that's ok. Sometimes they hit the mark with me. Sometimes not with me, but with others. If it's something that can harm a person's health, then I will speak up. If it doesn't cause any harm and can help the person with rosacea, then that's great. Anyway, I hope you get Dr. Nase's book soon and let us know what you think of it. Take care, Matija > > > About IgG, I was simply asking the poster for more information > > about it. I tried to look up information on it and just found > > something from a researcher from the National Institutes of Health. > > I'm with you, then, because I'm not familiar with IgG-related delayed > food allergies either. I don't really understand the connection > between allergies and rosacea. Whether the presence of histamine or > other immune-mediated substances triggers rosacea flare or facial > flush, it seems to me an allergy or food intolerance should be > identified if possible in its own right. > > If my ignorance is due to lack of factual knowledge I hope someone > will point me (all of us) to online references. > > It's hard to discuss beliefs that are based on gut feelings or > personal experience, because even when everyone is thoughtful and > polite it can feel hurtful when others don't validate those beliefs. > That goes for me as well -- my beliefs are based on what I've > experienced in science and medicine, so it's hard for me to > understand others who don't prioritize factual information or logical > deduction as a basis for knowledge. It's not the only kind of > knowledge, of course, but we're discussing here real things in the > material world. But I know many people don't. > > Humans are by nature imaginative beings, and a few isolated facts and > unexplained connections can sometimes take our imagination to > insightful ventures, though not always. I'm in an email discussion > group where sometimes we talk about conspiracy theories for fun, but > I know there are people in the group who seriously believe them. (I > always tease them extra hard. ) Some of what gets posted here > reminds me of that kind of creative energy, though of course this > topic is very serious to many people here. > > > It seems you didn't read my reply that closely. > > I did mess up the IgG reference, I'm sorry. Some of my replies to you > (like the above) are intended as general comments and not directed to > you specifically, I hope you know that. It's my way -- I enjoy e- > groups, but it's not a comfortable medium for me as a physician, > there's so much potential for misunderstanding, in all directions, > and worse if I make personal replies. And I don't always have the > free time I've had the past few days. > > It's nice to know that your diet works so well for you. > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 Hi, I wanted to add some comments to some of the ideas and sentiments expressed in the " rosacea diet " thread that's been going on (comments below to two posts): --- ruizdelvizo ruizdelvizo@...> wrote: > I do like hearing all the > opinions and anecdotes though I may not believe > them based on my own > experience or they may ring true with me. I'm > grateful people have > taken the trouble to let me know. I would second this. " Anecdotal " experience and opinions are exactly why I am on this list and why I stay here. What the medical community so often calls fact, to me, has not much to do with what is true or effective in treating rosacea. facts and figures and conclusion based on studies are subject to change. > In the medical community, much is unknown about > rosacea and there are > contradictions. When I was first diagnosed with > rosacea in '94, I > requested to be put on the NRS mailing list. I > remember how they used > to say that they didn't believe food had > anything to do with rosacea > flares, but some of their respondents did have > the problem. Now, > they do say it can happen probably because a > study proved it in the > interim. Just a quick search of Medline will > give you one journal > article on how the eradication of h. pylori > does relieves the > symptoms of rosacea and another article on how > the eradication of h. > pylori does nothing to relieve rosacea. > > Further, I've been told and heard that derms > suggest using mild > cleansers for rosacea like Cetaphil or Purpose. > Both those burned my > skin. I looked to this board for any > suggestions and I received a few > that were helpful. I asked my derm for any > suggestions and he didn't > know what else to tell me if those cleansers > caused problems. I had a very similar experience. The derm I saw prescribed Metrocream, antibiotics and said I would be on them for life. When I told her that Metrocream burned my face and made it sting, she said I was wrong and that Metrocream simply would not do that. A more holistic approach to the problem of rosacea seemed beyond her. Cetaphil one of the most frequently touted cleansers for sensitive skin makes my skin turn red almost immediately. Suggestions and other rosaceans " anecdotal " experiencs have led me to a simple skin care routine that is reliable, effective and most importantly, does not worsen my skin! All that I have learned and applied to control and in fact greatly improve my rosacea has been through my own investigation and application of what I've learned either on my own, or via this list. > I know you would agree that medical science > does not have all the > answers. I hope that medicine can provide the > answers for rosaceans > someday. I welcome that and want it. But I > don't see many studies out > there about rosacea and the facets of it that > are discussed here. If > I followed my derm's advice about Metrogel and > the cleansers, my face > would be pertually red and feel like it was > burning. I don't have > that anymore due to some suggestions that I > read here. I'm glad to > hear anecdotal stories because they might help. > If the poster has it > wrong or is completely offbase, that's ok. > Sometimes they hit the > mark with me. Sometimes not with me, but with > others. If it's > something that can harm a person's health, then > I will speak up. If > it doesn't cause any harm and can help the > person with rosacea, then > that's great. Again, I agree on this point. One of the things about the list that I most value is the freedom with which we all post suggestions, questions, findings, experiences, good, bad and otherwise at anytime. I love that fact that alot of the posts are brief, almost random comments - we are all pretty " up " on rosacea treatments around here and what is so great about all the posts is that you can look further into them or disregard them whatever you want. While I am interested in the current status of rosacea and it's treatment in the medical community, I by no means consider it the " real " source of information. It's my distinct impression that many of us would not be here on this list if they were that satisfied with what dermatologists and the medical community in general had to say. > > > It's hard to discuss beliefs that are based > on gut feelings or > > personal experience, because even when > everyone is thoughtful and > > polite it can feel hurtful when others don't > validate those > beliefs. Discussing personal experiences and feelings are a large part of the discussion on this list. It's not hard for me and it's not my impression that it is hard for others here on the list either. to restate once again, it's a big part of why I am part of this group. > > That goes for me as well -- my beliefs are > based on what I've > > experienced in science and medicine, so it's > hard for me to > > understand others who don't prioritize > factual information or > logical > > deduction as a basis for knowledge. It's not > the only kind of > > knowledge, of course, but we're discussing > here real things in the > > material world. But I know many people don't. this comment comes across as very condescending and arrogant. is it appropriate here? I'm not sure...how do you propose to know how other list members prioritize information? > > Humans are by nature imaginative beings, and > a few isolated facts > and > > unexplained connections can sometimes take > our imagination to > > insightful ventures, though not always. I'm > in an email discussion > > group where sometimes we talk about > conspiracy theories for fun, > but > > I know there are people in the group who > seriously believe them. (I > > always tease them extra hard. ) Some of > what gets posted here > > reminds me of that kind of creative energy, > though of course this > > topic is very serious to many people here. to this I would say thanks for your opinion on imagination and it's place in the world, but is this tack appropriate for this list? go ahead and state your opinion, but making some sort of connection between your personal views and the views you assume people on this list have, are not really your business nor of course are they necessarily correct. > > you specifically, I hope you know that. It's > my way -- I enjoy e- > > groups, but it's not a comfortable medium for > me as a physician, > > there's so much potential for > misunderstanding, in all directions, > > and worse if I make personal replies. And I > don't always have the > > free time I've had the past few days. How about not worrying about what other people understand or don't? Post an opinion, offer a suggestion, detail an experience, clue other members into an interesting article, development, whatever, ask questions that you are dealing with or answer a question and leave it at that. No one has to justify themselves here and everyone on the list is free to take or leave whatever information they may come across. > > It's nice to know that your diet works so > well for you. > > > > Marjorie > > > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD thanks, __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 Hi, I wanted to add some comments to some of the ideas and sentiments expressed in the " rosacea diet " thread that's been going on (comments below to two posts): --- ruizdelvizo ruizdelvizo@...> wrote: > I do like hearing all the > opinions and anecdotes though I may not believe > them based on my own > experience or they may ring true with me. I'm > grateful people have > taken the trouble to let me know. I would second this. " Anecdotal " experience and opinions are exactly why I am on this list and why I stay here. What the medical community so often calls fact, to me, has not much to do with what is true or effective in treating rosacea. facts and figures and conclusion based on studies are subject to change. > In the medical community, much is unknown about > rosacea and there are > contradictions. When I was first diagnosed with > rosacea in '94, I > requested to be put on the NRS mailing list. I > remember how they used > to say that they didn't believe food had > anything to do with rosacea > flares, but some of their respondents did have > the problem. Now, > they do say it can happen probably because a > study proved it in the > interim. Just a quick search of Medline will > give you one journal > article on how the eradication of h. pylori > does relieves the > symptoms of rosacea and another article on how > the eradication of h. > pylori does nothing to relieve rosacea. > > Further, I've been told and heard that derms > suggest using mild > cleansers for rosacea like Cetaphil or Purpose. > Both those burned my > skin. I looked to this board for any > suggestions and I received a few > that were helpful. I asked my derm for any > suggestions and he didn't > know what else to tell me if those cleansers > caused problems. I had a very similar experience. The derm I saw prescribed Metrocream, antibiotics and said I would be on them for life. When I told her that Metrocream burned my face and made it sting, she said I was wrong and that Metrocream simply would not do that. A more holistic approach to the problem of rosacea seemed beyond her. Cetaphil one of the most frequently touted cleansers for sensitive skin makes my skin turn red almost immediately. Suggestions and other rosaceans " anecdotal " experiencs have led me to a simple skin care routine that is reliable, effective and most importantly, does not worsen my skin! All that I have learned and applied to control and in fact greatly improve my rosacea has been through my own investigation and application of what I've learned either on my own, or via this list. > I know you would agree that medical science > does not have all the > answers. I hope that medicine can provide the > answers for rosaceans > someday. I welcome that and want it. But I > don't see many studies out > there about rosacea and the facets of it that > are discussed here. If > I followed my derm's advice about Metrogel and > the cleansers, my face > would be pertually red and feel like it was > burning. I don't have > that anymore due to some suggestions that I > read here. I'm glad to > hear anecdotal stories because they might help. > If the poster has it > wrong or is completely offbase, that's ok. > Sometimes they hit the > mark with me. Sometimes not with me, but with > others. If it's > something that can harm a person's health, then > I will speak up. If > it doesn't cause any harm and can help the > person with rosacea, then > that's great. Again, I agree on this point. One of the things about the list that I most value is the freedom with which we all post suggestions, questions, findings, experiences, good, bad and otherwise at anytime. I love that fact that alot of the posts are brief, almost random comments - we are all pretty " up " on rosacea treatments around here and what is so great about all the posts is that you can look further into them or disregard them whatever you want. While I am interested in the current status of rosacea and it's treatment in the medical community, I by no means consider it the " real " source of information. It's my distinct impression that many of us would not be here on this list if they were that satisfied with what dermatologists and the medical community in general had to say. > > > It's hard to discuss beliefs that are based > on gut feelings or > > personal experience, because even when > everyone is thoughtful and > > polite it can feel hurtful when others don't > validate those > beliefs. Discussing personal experiences and feelings are a large part of the discussion on this list. It's not hard for me and it's not my impression that it is hard for others here on the list either. to restate once again, it's a big part of why I am part of this group. > > That goes for me as well -- my beliefs are > based on what I've > > experienced in science and medicine, so it's > hard for me to > > understand others who don't prioritize > factual information or > logical > > deduction as a basis for knowledge. It's not > the only kind of > > knowledge, of course, but we're discussing > here real things in the > > material world. But I know many people don't. this comment comes across as very condescending and arrogant. is it appropriate here? I'm not sure...how do you propose to know how other list members prioritize information? > > Humans are by nature imaginative beings, and > a few isolated facts > and > > unexplained connections can sometimes take > our imagination to > > insightful ventures, though not always. I'm > in an email discussion > > group where sometimes we talk about > conspiracy theories for fun, > but > > I know there are people in the group who > seriously believe them. (I > > always tease them extra hard. ) Some of > what gets posted here > > reminds me of that kind of creative energy, > though of course this > > topic is very serious to many people here. to this I would say thanks for your opinion on imagination and it's place in the world, but is this tack appropriate for this list? go ahead and state your opinion, but making some sort of connection between your personal views and the views you assume people on this list have, are not really your business nor of course are they necessarily correct. > > you specifically, I hope you know that. It's > my way -- I enjoy e- > > groups, but it's not a comfortable medium for > me as a physician, > > there's so much potential for > misunderstanding, in all directions, > > and worse if I make personal replies. And I > don't always have the > > free time I've had the past few days. How about not worrying about what other people understand or don't? Post an opinion, offer a suggestion, detail an experience, clue other members into an interesting article, development, whatever, ask questions that you are dealing with or answer a question and leave it at that. No one has to justify themselves here and everyone on the list is free to take or leave whatever information they may come across. > > It's nice to know that your diet works so > well for you. > > > > Marjorie > > > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD thanks, __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2002 Report Share Posted March 21, 2002 > > > You know, I *thought* your name looked familiar! I needed to see the > EMT after it. Some other initials too, NPR-EMT, or something? Did > you ever post on EMED-L when it first started in the mid 90s? There's > something your name was associated with on the ER boards or Web site, > no? No, never did post on EMED-L, or ER boards or Web site.... > > You're right, your diet sounds nothing like immune modulating diet. > (Yet another reason to regret ever having brought that $##!$%* diet > up! ) > Glad you cleared that up.....it is not an immune modulating diet > You insure everyone on your diet is under a doctor's care, right? > Theoretically what you suggest doesn't sound unsafe for 30 days for a > young healthy person, but what about people with undiagnosed > problems? Together we can create lots of nightmare emergency > scenarios: someone with subclinical renal disease who goes into CHF > or hypertensive crisis because they can't excrete all the water > they're drinking....arrhythmias from borderline electrolyte > abnormalities that gets kicked over the edge with temporary blood > dilution.... My legal disclaimer that everyone accepts before purchasing the diet states, " You should consult with your doctor or health care provider before changing your current diet. " I actually recommend eight 12 oz glasses of water a day, and if possible ten glasses in the book. My math was a bit wild when I wrote you before, so the actual total per day is 96 to 120 ounces of water per day. Sorry for the incorrect math, good thing you caught me on that one! As to possible undiagnosed problems, I am not a physician, I am the author of a diet. I state in the book and in my legal disclaimer, " cea seems to be an individual case by case disease, and the cea Diet © by diet alone may not control your rosacea. Your rosacea may require additional or other treatment from a qualified physician, including prescription medication, or treatment from a qualified health care practioner using some other method. " > > It's based on a theory, as you say, and either you accept the theory > or not. But I'm not clear why the extreme approach is needed. Why not > work backwards, first eliminate the worst offenders, then continue > eliminating other foods month after month until the rosacea is well- > managed? Aren't you teaching a new dietary lifestyle to manage a > chronic disease? Why not use behavior modification tools and > gradually move forward, instead of fighting behavior modification > with an initial extreme deprivation, setting up hopeful people for > yet another disappointment and failure? After all, the diet isn't > really for thirty days, it just advances after thirty days, right? > They really can't eat whatever they want -- they can't go back to > their old diets, for example? For millenniums, mankind mostly ate meat, fish, dairy, fruits and vegetables. Only in the past couple of hundred years or so has mankind eaten sugar in such enormous amounts. If you were a physican living in the dark ages, the typical American diet would be considered a new dietary lifestyle and extreme approach. My point is that the typical American eats 149 pounds of sugar a year, and you say that eliminating it for thirty days is extreme? I clearly state that after the thirty days you eat whatever you want. This is simply a method to control rosacea that works. A rosacean does what he or she wants with the information. I do not know at this point what to do after the thirty days, except to modify its use depending on each rosacean's individual disease. It clearly does not cure rosacea, but it controls it just as tetracycline or metrogel does. What about the long term effects with continued use of antibiotics or prescription drug therapy? That is less of a risk? Each rosacean can determine the benefit risk ratio and decide. The cea Diet gives a rosacean another alternative to control rosacea. > > Your explanation was very clear, thanks very much for taking the time > to explain your diet. I will check out your sites and the review. So I am assuming that the Protein Power and Sugar Busters! diets are also not immune modulating diets, right? Brady Barrows > > Marjorie > > Marjorie Lazoff, MD > > > > -- > Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group > (http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you > don't give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must > change the subject when replying to a digest ! > > See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book. > > To leave the list send an email to rosacea-support- > unsubscribe > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2002 Report Share Posted March 22, 2002 > My point is that the typical American eats 149 pounds of sugar a > year, and you say that eliminating it for thirty days is extreme? Give me a break, you know I don't think that eliminating sugar is what's extreme about your diet! > I clearly state that after the thirty days you eat whatever you > want. This is simply a method to control rosacea that works. A > rosacean does what he or she wants with the information. > I do not know at this point what to do after the thirty days, > except to modify its use depending on each rosacean's individual > disease. Fair enough. What do you hope your customers will have learned after the 30 day diet that will help them to better manage their rosacea? > It clearly does not cure rosacea, but it controls it just as > tetracycline or metrogel does. Right, nothing cures rosacea. But antibiotics are treatment. > What about the long term effects with continued use > of antibiotics or prescription drug therapy? I don't know of any long term effects from topical antibiotics. > The cea Diet gives a rosacean another alternative to control > rosacea. I don't think in terms of controlling any chronic condition. I think in terms of management. Control is false empowerment because no one truly controls a medical disorder. Imagine telling a person to control their multiple sclerosis, to consider their remissions and exacerbations as if they were in control and out-of-control? Sometimes we talk about a drug controlling the number of seizures, or a diabetic controlling his blood sugar. But epilepsy and diabetes as conditions are managed, not controlled. Likewise, we talk about controlling triggers, but rosacea itself is managed. I don't think it's a subtle difference. Management is a more realistic description of what it's like to live with a chronic condition, day in and day out. A chronic condition can't always be controlled, but it can always be managed. > So I am assuming that the Protein Power and Sugar Busters! diets > are also not immune modulating diets, right? I doubt it. Marjorie Marjorie Lazoff, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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