Guest guest Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Your first priority is drinking two quarts of water every day for the rest of your life. It is essential to your weight loss and continued good health. You MUST have 120-160 grams of protein supplement and all of your vitamin and mineral supplements each day to maintain adequate protein, vitamin and mineral levels for optimum weight loss. You may consume up to three ounces of the following high protein foods 5 times a day. ****NOTE**** I am a distal RNY HIGH PROTEIN FOODS: MEAT Beef Pork Chicken Turkey Lamb Fish OTHER SOURCES Eggs Cheese (low fat) Cottage cheese Yogurt (plain or artificially sweetened) peanut butter Beans You may also have: Sugar free popsicles (avoid Welches or all-fruit juice pops). Stick to artificially sweetened varieties. Tea or coffee sugar free sodas sugar free Jell-O Broths and Bouillons Crystal Lite Drinks If it is not on the list, you may not have it!!!! If you feel hungry between meals, try hot soup stock. Swanson's chicken or beef broth with the fat skimmed off is a good choice. Add your favorite herbs and spices. If you want to add fresh vegetables for flavor, strain before serving. For interesting beverages, try mixing flavored herbal teas with Crystal Lte or diet sodas for new flavors. Keep a diary to keep you on track. Do your best to get 30 minutes of aerobic exercise daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Thanks to all who responded to me with the " jump start " plan! You are all so great! Love Ya'! bobbie Here is the diet. > Your first priority is drinking two quarts of water every day for the > rest of your life. It is essential to your weight loss and continued > good health. You MUST have 120-160 grams of protein supplement and > all > of your vitamin and mineral supplements each day to maintain adequate > protein, vitamin and mineral levels for optimum weight loss. You > may > consume up to three ounces of the following high protein foods 5 > times a > day. ****NOTE**** I am a distal RNY > > HIGH PROTEIN FOODS: > > MEAT > Beef > Pork > Chicken > Turkey > Lamb Fish > > OTHER SOURCES > Eggs > Cheese (low fat) > Cottage cheese > Yogurt (plain or artificially sweetened) > peanut butter > Beans > > You may also have: > Sugar free popsicles (avoid Welches or all-fruit juice pops). Stick > to > artificially sweetened varieties. > > Tea or coffee > sugar free sodas > sugar free Jell-O > Broths and Bouillons > Crystal Lite Drinks > > If it is not on the list, you may not have it!!!! > > If you feel hungry between meals, try hot soup stock. Swanson's > chicken or beef broth with the fat skimmed off is a good choice. Add > your favorite herbs and spices. If you want to add fresh vegetables > for > flavor, strain before serving. For interesting beverages, try > mixing > flavored herbal teas with Crystal Lte or diet sodas for new flavors. > > Keep a diary to keep you on track. Do your best to get 30 minutes of > aerobic exercise daily. > > > > > Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG > > Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 <<****NOTE**** I am a distal RNY>> First of all, Vicki, the requirements of a distal, and one with malabsorption are vastly different from others. 15 ounces of protein (3 ounces, 5X a day) is 425 grams! I couldn't eat that much protein on my best day. MY dietary requirements, if I had NO WLS, would only be about 60 grams. And that's about what I get. Thank you for clarifying that you are a distal. It makes a world of difference in your needs. Jac mailto:jholdaway@... http://www.pictureitdigitaldesigns.com/ http://members.cox.net/xxxfarmpaints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Here is another " If it doesn't have a mother " Fay Bayuk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Jac, I am the one that originally posted the Jump Start plan that my surgeon recommends just as a temporary measure to break a plateau. However, you have misunderstood the directions (OR I typed them wrong). I am required 150 grams a day of protein supplement. That is five shakes a day of 30 grams protein. I do NOT get my protein from food, as I am a distal, however, this plan is also fine to use for proximals and also for medials. Your protein SUPPLEMENT (shakes) requirement would, however, be less. This plan recommends you consume no more than 3 ounces of food protein at a sitting, five times a day, and have protein shakes in between. Do the plan for not more than 10 days at a time. I know of several people who have done this " jump start " to " jumpstart " their weight loss after hitting a plateau for a few weeks, and have been very successful, with then adding in the carbs, fruits, and veggies. I was only trying to be helpful in posting this plan, and everyone is different. I, myself, have not used the jump start for longer than a day or two as I was too sick (due to protein malnutrition) to actually stick to it. YMMV B Distal RNY 12/27/95 275/152 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 The docs actual words are: if it doesn't walk, fly or swim, do not eat it. LOL! Thanks, Vitalady T www.vitalady.com If you are interested in PayPal, please click here: https://secure.paypal.com/affil/pal=vitalady%40bigfoot.com Re: Here is the diet. > Jac, > I am the one that originally posted the Jump Start plan that my surgeon recommends just as a temporary measure to break a plateau. > > However, you have misunderstood the directions (OR I typed them wrong). > > I am required 150 grams a day of protein supplement. That is five shakes a day of 30 grams protein. I do NOT get my protein from food, as I am a distal, however, this plan is also fine to use for proximals and also for medials. Your protein SUPPLEMENT (shakes) requirement would, however, be less. > > This plan recommends you consume no more than 3 ounces of food protein at a sitting, five times a day, and have protein shakes in between. Do the plan for not more than 10 days at a time. I know of several people who have done this " jump start " to " jumpstart " their weight loss after hitting a plateau for a few weeks, and have been very successful, with then adding in the carbs, fruits, and veggies. > > I was only trying to be helpful in posting this plan, and everyone is different. I, myself, have not used the jump start for longer than a day or two as I was too sick (due to protein malnutrition) to actually stick to it. > > YMMV > > B > Distal RNY 12/27/95 > 275/152 > > Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG > > Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 In a message dated 12/18/2002 5:19:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, jholdaway@... writes: > And I don't know why they aren't still doing the > surgery that I and my mother had. It appears that there are a lot of things > that I don't know or understand. What I DO understand is, if it works > for > you, then do it!!! > > What surgery did you and your mother have? Do you not need protein or vitamins? B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 In a message dated 12/18/2002 5:20:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, jholdaway@... writes: > What I do not understand is why doctors are still performing surgeries that > cause malabsorption. Restricted quantities are not enough to manage my metabolism into losing or maintaining a weight loss while giving me what I consider a quality of life at the same time. In order to lose weight, I need to consume less than 800 calories a day, and exercise vigorously at least 5 times a week. To maintain a weight level, I can bring my calories to 1000 a day, with the same exercise level. I was unable to do either of these regimes for any lengthy period of time. I needed a malabsorptive procedure in order to ensure loss and maintenance. Kate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 <> MIS understanding is one of my strongest points! LOL (as an aside---when I was growing up, my mother always called me Miss Information. I was in my 20's before I found out that she wasn't calling me " Miss Information. " She was calling me Misinformation. LOL) I understand that your dietary needs are different than mine. Honest I do. What I do not understand is why doctors are still performing surgeries that cause malabsorption. And I don't know why they aren't still doing the surgery that I and my mother had. It appears that there are a lot of things that I don't know or understand. What I DO understand is, if it works for you, then do it!!! Jac mailto:jholdaway@... http://www.pictureitdigitaldesigns.com/ http://members.cox.net/xxxfarmpaints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 << What surgery did you and your mother have? Do you not need protein or vitamins? B >> We had what was called a Mason By-Pass. From what I have read, it is the immediate predecessor of RNY. My stomach was reduced, with 4 rows of surgical steel staples, to a 3 ounce capacity. None of my stomach was actually removed. This was explained to me as being necessary for my stomach to keep producing gastric acids, necessary for digestion. This is the only part of my surgery that has caused me problems, because it produces too much. THEN my surgeon took my small intestine and moved the connection to the side of my stomach, from the bottom. He said that NONE of my intestinal tract was removed, to PREVENT malabsorption. I guess it worked! I have NEVER had to have a protein drink or any other supplement. I SHOULD take a vitamin daily, but I have such an aversion to pills that I usually " forget. " I get all the protein I need thru normal dietary venues...meat (not a lot), cheese, yogurt and beans/peas/legumes. I eat carbohydrates. To be blunt, I CRAVE carbohydrates. And, with all this discussion of cutting carbs, I have to ask, at least from a maintenance standpoint, " WHY??? " I mean, don't overload yourself on simple sugars. That's sure failure. But, carbs are your energy source. Not protein. Complex carbs are good for you! And they are usually tied to fiber. All of you with poopy problems know that you have to increase your fiber...what do you think Metamucil is? I eat vegetables. A lot of vegetables. Cooked, of course, I don't tolerate a lot of raw. But, I don't have excremental problems either. I go, every morning, within 30 minutes of getting up (it seems that the first sip of coffee stimulates my system). I USED to go every 3 days. It doesn't float, it doesn't stink, and I only flush one time. What I don't eat? Fatty or fried foods. My tummy will tell me in very short order that I screwed up. I am going to be sick. Puking my guts up, taking my teeth out (I have dentures), slam the bathroom door. Sick. My tummy tells me lots of things. Fortunately, I learned to listen. I give it the 15 minutes it needs to talk to my very small brain. And I listen when it tells me that the hot fudge sundae that looks so good is not good for me. It lets me have ONE BITE. If I go over that, it BITES ME. I'll repeat, again, the hardest thing I had to learn was to be patient, and give my brain and stomach time to communicate without my superior interference.. THAT is the secret to my success. Jac mailto:jholdaway@... http://www.pictureitdigitaldesigns.com/ http://members.cox.net/xxxfarmpaints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Thank you, Kate, for explaining that to me. {{{Hugs}}} Jac mailto:jholdaway@... http://www.pictureitdigitaldesigns.com/ http://members.cox.net/xxxfarmpaints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 What surgery did you gals have that you have NO malabsorption? VBG or AGB? I hope you don't have one of those surgeons that thinks a proximal RNY doesn't cause malabsorption... There are over one hundred 25 cm (yes, just 10 " ) bypass patients in our support group, and I have seen 12 of them crash nutritionally in the past 15 months because their surgeon doesn't believe they have malabsorption and tells them to take a single kids' chewable multi a day. Those that actually follow his program, instead of taking a good adult multi, calcium citrate, and a few other things as needed based on labs, either crash fast or will crash eventually. Grey ghosts indeed. And I shudder to think what their bones will be like in 20 years with Tums or no calcium at all. I do appreciate your live-and-let-live attitude, and I try to have it, except when I see that people in my support group are on the road to nutritional disaster. Then I intervene. I can't put the pills in their mouths but I can help them understand, via diagrams of their rerouted insides and other diagrams that show where we absorb various nutrients, that they do indeed have malabsorption that they have to deal with if they want to stay in peak health. Ziobro Open RNY 09/17/01 125cm bypass Plastics 07/22/02 310/128/125 BMI 54.9 to 22.0 Jeans size 32 to 4 http://www.ziobro.us RE: Here is the diet. LOL) I understand that your dietary needs are different than mine. Honest I do. What I do not understand is why doctors are still performing surgeries that cause malabsorption. And I don't know why they aren't still doing the surgery that I and my mother had. It appears that there are a lot of things that I don't know or understand. What I DO understand is, if it works for you, then do it!!! Jac mailto:jholdaway@... http://www.pictureitdigitaldesigns.com/ http://members.cox.net/xxxfarmpaints Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 My gawd! Un-f$*&!ng-believable! --Steve (taking 12 Vita4Life/day for life!) At 11:38 AM -0800 12/18/02, Ziobro wrote: >There are over one hundred 25 cm >(yes, just 10 " ) bypass patients in our support group, and I have seen 12 >of them crash nutritionally in the past 15 months because their surgeon >doesn't believe they have malabsorption and tells them to take a single >kids' chewable multi a day. Those that actually follow his program, >instead of taking a good adult multi, calcium citrate, and a few other >things as needed based on labs, either crash fast or will crash >eventually. Grey ghosts indeed. And I shudder to think what their bones >will be like in 20 years with Tums or no calcium at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 , I hope you read my post that explained the surgery I had. It isn't even listed as one of the current choices I've seen. It was performed over 20 years ago!!! Do I have malabsorption? I probably do, but obviously it's not life threatening! ly, I don't think someone, who is 15 months post op, is going to be able to tell me, 247 months post op, much about what my body needs. I don't mean that to be hateful or ugly, just a fact. I DON'T take protein supplements, or enormous amounts of vitamins. I haven't crashed in the nearly 21 years I have post surgery, and neither has my mother. Obviously someone thought there was a problem with the surgery we had, or they'd still be doing it. But, honestly, I don't know what it is. BTW I don't have a clue what " VBG or AGB " even is. Jac mailto:jholdaway@... before and after pictures at: http://hometown.aol.com/jrandjrholdaway http://www.pictureitdigitaldesigns.com/ http://members.cox.net/xxxfarmpaints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Jacque . . . I went to your page and am totally impressed. You have done what we all dreamt of, which is put morbid obesity behind you. You have a life, which many post ops only dream of, or aftaid to dream of, because the past doesn't define who you are today. Please stay on the list and take the time to share your 21 years of post op life. It will help us all realize we have moved on. If we haven't then we'll know we should. Thanks for being here on the Grad list. Besides being beautiful outside (even when excess weight was an issue) I can tell it runs all the way down to the bones and beyond. And than you for your sound advise about my anxiety . . . BTW, I post to the list as I read it at yahoo and not individual emails, otherwise I would reply all! ) Vicki > , I hope you read my post that explained the surgery I had. It isn't > even listed as one of the current choices I've seen. It was performed over > 20 years ago!!! Do I have malabsorption? I probably do, but obviously it's > not life threatening! ly, I don't think someone, who is 15 months post > op, is going to be able to tell me, 247 months post op, much about what my > body needs. I don't mean that to be hateful or ugly, just a fact. I DON'T > take protein supplements, or enormous amounts of vitamins. I haven't crashed > in the nearly 21 years I have post surgery, and neither has my mother. > Obviously someone thought there was a problem with the surgery we had, or > they'd still be doing it. But, honestly, I don't know what it is. BTW I > don't have a clue what " VBG or AGB " even is. > > Jac > mailto:jholdaway@c... > before and after pictures at: > http://hometown.aol.com/jrandjrholdaway > http://www.pictureitdigitaldesigns.com/ > http://members.cox.net/xxxfarmpaints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Jacque, I'm not attacking you and I'm sorry you read what I said that way. I'm glad your health is great and that you've been able to move on to a wonderful post-WLS life. But my mother also had a Mason bypass, in August of 1979, and it almost killed her. She had life-threatening immediate post-op complications and serious nutritional deficiency issues for the rest of her life. She died at age 43 but already had serious osteoporosis and a dowager's hump (she was 32 when she had the surgery). She took calcium carbonate at the recommendation of her surgeon, and was on every vitamin regime known to medical science at the time. (Cancer killed her; related to the WLS or not, very hard to say). Needless to say, I researched RNY and other surgery types until my surgeon teased me and asked me if I wanted to help him perform one before I had mine done. :-) My point is that I'm really glad that *your* experience has gone well, but it's certainly not universal, and I DO have personal experience with this issue. Everyone's results vary and I think it's worth it to know your body and what's working for you AND what challenges you are likely to face as a result of your WLS, so you can deal with them head-on, before they are life-threatening problems. Ziobro Open RNY 09/17/01 Plastics 07/22/02 310/128/125 -----Original Message----- > , I hope you read my post that explained the surgery I had. It isn't > even listed as one of the current choices I've seen. It was performed over > 20 years ago!!! Do I have malabsorption? I probably do, but obviously it's > not life threatening! ly, I don't think someone, who is 15 months post > op, is going to be able to tell me, 247 months post op, much about what my > body needs. I don't mean that to be hateful or ugly, just a fact. I DON'T > take protein supplements, or enormous amounts of vitamins. I haven't crashed > in the nearly 21 years I have post surgery, and neither has my mother. > Obviously someone thought there was a problem with the surgery we had, or > they'd still be doing it. But, honestly, I don't know what it is. BTW I > don't have a clue what " VBG or AGB " even is. > > Jac > mailto:jholdaway@c... > before and after pictures at: http://hometown.aol.com/jrandjrholdaway > http://www.pictureitdigitaldesigns.com/ > http://members.cox.net/xxxfarmpaints Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 But, carbs are your energy source. Not protein. Complex Jac, I think when people say " carbs " that they are generally referring to the simple and not the complex......I know that is what I am usually doing anyway......... P. RE: Here is the diet. > << > What surgery did you and your mother have? Do you not need protein or > vitamins? > > B > >> > We had what was called a Mason By-Pass. From what I have read, it is the > immediate predecessor of RNY. My stomach was reduced, with 4 rows of > surgical steel staples, to a 3 ounce capacity. None of my stomach was > actually removed. This was explained to me as being necessary for my stomach > to keep producing gastric acids, necessary for digestion. This is the only > part of my surgery that has caused me problems, because it produces too > much. THEN my surgeon took my small intestine and moved the connection to > the side of my stomach, from the bottom. He said that NONE of my intestinal > tract was removed, to PREVENT malabsorption. > I guess it worked! I have NEVER had to have a protein drink or any other > supplement. I SHOULD take a vitamin daily, but I have such an aversion to > pills that I usually " forget. " I get all the protein I need thru normal > dietary venues...meat (not a lot), cheese, yogurt and beans/peas/legumes. I > eat carbohydrates. To be blunt, I CRAVE carbohydrates. And, with all this > discussion of cutting carbs, I have to ask, at least from a maintenance > standpoint, " WHY??? " I mean, don't overload yourself on simple sugars. > That's sure failure. But, carbs are your energy source. Not protein. Complex > carbs are good for you! And they are usually tied to fiber. All of you with > poopy problems know that you have to increase your fiber...what do you think > Metamucil is? I eat vegetables. A lot of vegetables. Cooked, of course, I > don't tolerate a lot of raw. But, I don't have excremental problems either. > I go, every morning, within 30 minutes of getting up (it seems that the > first sip of coffee stimulates my system). I USED to go every 3 days. It > doesn't float, it doesn't stink, and I only flush one time. What I don't > eat? > Fatty or fried foods. My tummy will tell me in very short order that I > screwed up. I am going to be sick. Puking my guts up, taking my teeth out (I > have dentures), slam the bathroom door. Sick. > My tummy tells me lots of things. Fortunately, I learned to listen. I give > it the 15 minutes it needs to talk to my very small brain. And I listen when > it tells me that the hot fudge sundae that looks so good is not good for me. > It lets me have ONE BITE. If I go over that, it BITES ME. > I'll repeat, again, the hardest thing I had to learn was to be patient, and > give my brain and stomach time to communicate without my superior > interference.. THAT is the secret to my success. > > Jac > mailto:jholdaway@... > http://www.pictureitdigitaldesigns.com/ > http://members.cox.net/xxxfarmpaints > > > > > Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG > > Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Actually, all food eventually converts to energy. Carbs whether complex or simple convert faster. Protein takes the longest to convert but it does eventually convert. Having said that, I am a firm believer in everything in moderation including some carbs. I still feel so much better when I am doing mostly protein but I also know that my body craves fruits and vegetables. I do eat carbs but I still try to focus on whole wheat instead of white, corn bran instead of frosted flakes, etc. Just my humble opinion. Lori Owen - Denton, Texas CHF 4/14/01 479 lbs. SRVG 7/16/01 401 lbs. Current Weight 302 lbs. Dr. Ritter/Dr. Bryce On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:50:36 -0500 " nancy pugliese " nanpug@...> writes: > But, carbs are your energy source. Not protein. Complex > Jac, I think when people say " carbs " that they are generally > referring to > the simple and not the complex......I know that is what I am usually > doing > anyway......... P. > RE: Here is the diet. > > > > << > > What surgery did you and your mother have? Do you not need > protein or > > vitamins? > > > > B > > >> > > We had what was called a Mason By-Pass. From what I have read, it > is the > > immediate predecessor of RNY. My stomach was reduced, with 4 rows > of > > surgical steel staples, to a 3 ounce capacity. None of my stomach > was > > actually removed. This was explained to me as being necessary for > my > stomach > > to keep producing gastric acids, necessary for digestion. This is > the only > > part of my surgery that has caused me problems, because it > produces too > > much. THEN my surgeon took my small intestine and moved the > connection to > > the side of my stomach, from the bottom. He said that NONE of my > intestinal > > tract was removed, to PREVENT malabsorption. > > I guess it worked! I have NEVER had to have a protein drink or any > other > > supplement. I SHOULD take a vitamin daily, but I have such an > aversion to > > pills that I usually " forget. " I get all the protein I need thru > normal > > dietary venues...meat (not a lot), cheese, yogurt and > beans/peas/legumes. > I > > eat carbohydrates. To be blunt, I CRAVE carbohydrates. And, with > all this > > discussion of cutting carbs, I have to ask, at least from a > maintenance > > standpoint, " WHY??? " I mean, don't overload yourself on simple > sugars. > > That's sure failure. But, carbs are your energy source. Not > protein. > Complex > > carbs are good for you! And they are usually tied to fiber. All of > you > with > > poopy problems know that you have to increase your fiber...what do > you > think > > Metamucil is? I eat vegetables. A lot of vegetables. Cooked, of > course, I > > don't tolerate a lot of raw. But, I don't have excremental > problems > either. > > I go, every morning, within 30 minutes of getting up (it seems > that the > > first sip of coffee stimulates my system). I USED to go every 3 > days. It > > doesn't float, it doesn't stink, and I only flush one time. What I > don't > > eat? > > Fatty or fried foods. My tummy will tell me in very short order > that I > > screwed up. I am going to be sick. Puking my guts up, taking my > teeth out > (I > > have dentures), slam the bathroom door. Sick. > > My tummy tells me lots of things. Fortunately, I learned to > listen. I give > > it the 15 minutes it needs to talk to my very small brain. And I > listen > when > > it tells me that the hot fudge sundae that looks so good is not > good for > me. > > It lets me have ONE BITE. If I go over that, it BITES ME. > > I'll repeat, again, the hardest thing I had to learn was to be > patient, > and > > give my brain and stomach time to communicate without my superior > > interference.. THAT is the secret to my success. > > > > Jac > > mailto:jholdaway@... > > http://www.pictureitdigitaldesigns.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/xxxfarmpaints > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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