Orthodontist from @#$!

[Guest guest]

I used to come here a lot last year after I had my surgey (June 13,

03). I had Lefort 1 for an open bite and gummy smile. My braces

came off in April and I have been in a retainer ever since. Here's

my problem. I had posted last year that my surgery was not entirely

successful (they overadvanced me). Well, my upper jaw was

successfully pulled back by wearing elastics for 9 months. Well, the

midlines were always off, sometimes as much as 4 mm. They were able

to pull them back on somewhat and now they are 1 mm off. The problem

is my orthodontist was a real you-know-what following the surgery.

He copped an attitude with me that he didn't have prior to surgery.

He and my surgeon did not communicate well and did not get along (she

is two hours away in another city) and I got caught up in the

middle. I think that 1) the midlines are not " teeth " that are off,

they are a result of the jaw itself being off because my tm joint

aches all the time and 2)that my ortho took my braces off before they

were ready to come off. He refused to do an occlusal adjustment

after the braces were removed and told me to see my dentist because

he didn't want to deal with me anymore. I saw my dentist Wed. and he

was horrified at my occlusion. He did a full work-up of impressions,

bite register, etc. and said I need to go back into braces and

possibly surgery again. How outrageous is this? I told my ortho the

day my braces came off that I didn't think they were ready to come

off. He got about 12 inches from my face and said " oh, they're

coming off TODAY! " . I'm seeing my surgeon again on Wed. (first time

in 6 months) to get her opinion. She has offered in the past to redo

the surgery no charge (hospitalization and all that aside). Here's

my question. We paid over $15,000 to have braces and surgery done.

Is a person in my situation able to make an orthodontist put the

braces back on for free? What rights do I have? Has this ever

happened to anyone? I really need guidance here as I am devastated

that 2 1/2 years of my life, pain and suffering and time and expense

have all been for nothing. HELP! Especially Cammie. Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Whupps!!!

To me, this is one key to this situation: " He refused to do an

occlusal adjustment after the braces were removed and told me to see

my dentist because he didn't want to deal with me anymore. "

Ummmm. Not a good reason. Not even a decent reason, if that's what he

really, actually said.

I don't understand a lot about this. But I believe I'd start building

a file of documentation. It can be notes about conversations, with

dates, as well as whatever records you can get.

Sounds to me as though the ortho is terrified of litigation, and the

surgeon is not -- what more could surgeon do, than offer to redo the

op?

Second thing: You hurt, and your ortho is dismissive. It may be that

he/she doesn't know how to help, but I don't understand that part.

Nor do I get why he won't do " an occlusal adjustment. " (I'm figuring

that means what my guy calls " equillibration, " or grinding down teeth

(or opposing teeth or crowns) that no longer meet properly.) My most

excellent man knows I still do have some jaw twinges, and when I

bring them up, he says, " Maybe we'll need a splint. See what

happens. " When I mention occlusional issues, he checks them out, and

grinds if he finds appropriate physical evidence, using that carbon

paper sorta stuff to double-check my not-always-on-target

impressions. Better, he could not do.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry so much about midlines. As I've said

before, my midlines are off. I've lost more teeth on one side than

the other; my teeth vary greatly in size, as well, from top to

bottom. But the pain -- that would make me start hollering loudly.

Third thing: " Is a person in my situation able to make an

orthodontist put the braces back on for free? What rights do I

have? " Why would you want this same ortho working on you again, since

you clearly have issues with this doc? I wouldn't. What I probably

would do is talk with a lawyer about what your rights are, and

whether maybe the ortho should pay for another ortho to redo your

orthodontic work, if that is what you need. (Perhaps they have some

professional courtesy customs that cover such cases. I don't know. In

any case, I would not turn someone I did not trust loose in my mouth

with wires and brackets!)

In any case, I believe I would be looking for many and the best

opinions I could get, from the most talented and experienced

professionals I could find. What I would want most of all is a fix

that will be functional.

Thing the fourth: You say, " I saw my dentist Wed. and he

was horrified at my occlusion. He did a full work-up of

impressions, bite register, etc. and said I need to go back into

braces and possibly surgery again. How outrageous is this? "

Not at all outrageous, if that is what you need. This dentist may be

your best ally in the primary concern, getting help for your

troubles, which he, as a trained expert, can testify exist. Not a

pleasant answer, I'm sure. But I believe it to be a good one.

Maybe not the answers you want. Not the answers I would want, in your

circumstance. And I grieve that you have these troubles. But that's

how I see things. I hope you find some help, in a hurry!

Best,

Cammie

> I used to come here a lot last year after I had my surgey (June 13,

> 03). I had Lefort 1 for an open bite and gummy smile. My braces

> came off in April and I have been in a retainer ever since. Here's

> my problem. I had posted last year that my surgery was not

entirely

> successful (they overadvanced me). Well, my upper jaw was

> successfully pulled back by wearing elastics for 9 months. Well,

the

> midlines were always off, sometimes as much as 4 mm. They were

able

> to pull them back on somewhat and now they are 1 mm off. The

problem

> is my orthodontist was a real you-know-what following the surgery.

> He copped an attitude with me that he didn't have prior to

surgery.

> He and my surgeon did not communicate well and did not get along

(she

> is two hours away in another city) and I got caught up in the

> middle. I think that 1) the midlines are not " teeth " that are off,

> they are a result of the jaw itself being off because my tm joint

> aches all the time and 2)that my ortho took my braces off before

they

> were ready to come off. He refused to do an occlusal adjustment

> after the braces were removed and told me to see my dentist because

> he didn't want to deal with me anymore. I saw my dentist Wed. and

he

> was horrified at my occlusion. He did a full work-up of

impressions,

> bite register, etc. and said I need to go back into braces and

> possibly surgery again. How outrageous is this? I told my ortho

the

> day my braces came off that I didn't think they were ready to come

> off. He got about 12 inches from my face and said " oh, they're

> coming off TODAY! " . I'm seeing my surgeon again on Wed. (first

time

> in 6 months) to get her opinion. She has offered in the past to

redo

> the surgery no charge (hospitalization and all that aside). Here's

> my question. We paid over $15,000 to have braces and surgery

done.

> Is a person in my situation able to make an orthodontist put the

> braces back on for free? What rights do I have? Has this ever

> happened to anyone? I really need guidance here as I am devastated

> that 2 1/2 years of my life, pain and suffering and time and

expense

> have all been for nothing. HELP! Especially Cammie. Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Thanks Cammie. I knew I could rely on you for support and straight

talk. Basically, my ortho told me to " go see my dentist for an

occlusal adjustment " . I thought that was part of getting braces

off? Anyway, I DON'T want my orthodontist every touching me again,

but I don't want to pay another $5000 for braces with another ortho

either. I'm up against a brick wall.

I know there are people who go through surgery twice (I've seen it

here at this site) but I swear I never thought I would end up being

one of them. It's very distressing. My teeth actually look

beautiful, but they are not functional and the tightness and aching

in my jaw joint is not going to improve with time.

I will see what my surgeon says on Wed. and what my dentist's final

recommendation is when he finishes studying the models. I doubt he

will change his stance on needing braces again as I don't think he

would have said to begin with if he didn't feel strongly about it.

I'll keep you informed on what happens. Thanks for your help, as

always. It's nice to know you guys are still here for each other.

You have been on my email for 10 months and I receive all the posts

here in my email. I read many of them, often yours. Thanks again.

> > I used to come here a lot last year after I had my surgey (June

13,

> > 03). I had Lefort 1 for an open bite and gummy smile. My braces

> > came off in April and I have been in a retainer ever since.

Here's

> > my problem. I had posted last year that my surgery was not

> entirely

> > successful (they overadvanced me). Well, my upper jaw was

> > successfully pulled back by wearing elastics for 9 months. Well,

> the

> > midlines were always off, sometimes as much as 4 mm. They were

> able

> > to pull them back on somewhat and now they are 1 mm off. The

> problem

> > is my orthodontist was a real you-know-what following the

surgery.

> > He copped an attitude with me that he didn't have prior to

> surgery.

> > He and my surgeon did not communicate well and did not get along

> (she

> > is two hours away in another city) and I got caught up in the

> > middle. I think that 1) the midlines are not " teeth " that are

off,

> > they are a result of the jaw itself being off because my tm joint

> > aches all the time and 2)that my ortho took my braces off before

> they

> > were ready to come off. He refused to do an occlusal adjustment

> > after the braces were removed and told me to see my dentist

because

> > he didn't want to deal with me anymore. I saw my dentist Wed.

and

> he

> > was horrified at my occlusion. He did a full work-up of

> impressions,

> > bite register, etc. and said I need to go back into braces and

> > possibly surgery again. How outrageous is this? I told my ortho

> the

> > day my braces came off that I didn't think they were ready to

come

> > off. He got about 12 inches from my face and said " oh, they're

> > coming off TODAY! " . I'm seeing my surgeon again on Wed. (first

> time

> > in 6 months) to get her opinion. She has offered in the past to

> redo

> > the surgery no charge (hospitalization and all that aside).

Here's

> > my question. We paid over $15,000 to have braces and surgery

> done.

> > Is a person in my situation able to make an orthodontist put the

> > braces back on for free? What rights do I have? Has this ever

> > happened to anyone? I really need guidance here as I am

devastated

> > that 2 1/2 years of my life, pain and suffering and time and

> expense

> > have all been for nothing. HELP! Especially Cammie. Thanks,

[Guest guest]

In my book, that answer from the ortho was not the best ever, either.

My dentists -- the whole crew of them, from general dentist to perio

lady to surgeon -- leave that " equillibration " stuff up to the ortho.

(Sometimes I think I wish they didn't!)

I don't blame you for not wanting to have to fork over the cash

again -- I wonder whether you couldn't get some help with that, given

the circumstances, either legally or from a doc who cares about his

profession. Just a thought. I dunno. I dunno, also, whether if I need

more brackets and wires (God forbid!!!) I would have to pay the whole

shebang again. I reckon these are things we just don't talk about,

ahead of time.

Not necessarily true, though, that the tightness won't get better

with time. It has happened for many folks. So if the wise consensus

is to wait and see, well, wait and see. But meantime, you're hurting,

and you should have help for that, I think.

Talk with both your surgeon and your dentist about this, and tell

them what you've told us. I would think they might also feel some

responsibility in these matters, since presumably you went from one

to another of them with agreement from all while you were having

treatment. At least, I would hope they might make some suggestions

for you.

C.

> Thanks Cammie. I knew I could rely on you for support and straight

> talk. Basically, my ortho told me to " go see my dentist for an

> occlusal adjustment " . I thought that was part of getting braces

> off? Anyway, I DON'T want my orthodontist every touching me again,

> but I don't want to pay another $5000 for braces with another ortho

> either. I'm up against a brick wall.

>

> I know there are people who go through surgery twice (I've seen it

> here at this site) but I swear I never thought I would end up being

> one of them. It's very distressing. My teeth actually look

> beautiful, but they are not functional and the tightness and aching

> in my jaw joint is not going to improve with time.

>

> I will see what my surgeon says on Wed. and what my dentist's final

> recommendation is when he finishes studying the models. I doubt he

> will change his stance on needing braces again as I don't think he

> would have said to begin with if he didn't feel strongly about it.

>

> I'll keep you informed on what happens. Thanks for your help, as

> always. It's nice to know you guys are still here for each other.

> You have been on my email for 10 months and I receive all the posts

> here in my email. I read many of them, often yours. Thanks again.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tracey, I can relate a bit to this from the experience a friend of

mine had. She also had an open bite, which re-opened post-op. She

had some pretty severe pain in the jaw joint as well, pretty much

ignored by both ortho and surgeon. She's a registered nurse, and

wasn't about to believe that it was all in her head. She persisted.

Surgeon and ortho blamed each other. What I've read on-line is that

open bites are difficult to treat, both orthodontically and

orthognathically. So it may not be anybody's fault. It may be that

you were ignored. It may be that your surgery was screwed up. I

don't really have an answer to that.

She was able to get her previous ortho to contribute something to

the second round of braces. The surgeon did the second surgery

without additional charge (it is covered under our provincial health

insurance, but she didn't have to pay for out-of-hospital visits to

the surgeon). I'd have gone back to the same surgeon too - he did my

surgery and he's one of the best. Things just don't always go the

way they should, unfortunately, although they do for the majority of

us.

The fact that your surgeon has agreed to do the surgery over again

for free is good. Could you use that as leverage with the ortho?

Something didn't go right, the surgeon was willing to acknowledge

that, what about the ortho? You have to return to treatment again,

how about splitting the cost with a new ortho? It doesn't hurt to

try. After all, he/she doesn't want to deal with you again, and you

don't want to deal with that person, but what about some recognition

of their responsiblity in the failed result? Both surgeon and ortho

are involved.

Sorry that your result wasn't what you expected. Hope you resolve

things soon.

[Guest guest]

I forgot to mention that my friend went to a different ortho second

time around - someone that uses the same surgeon, whom she knew of

from another patient of the surgeon. Why not ask your surgeon who

else he/she recommends?

[Guest guest]

---

Is surgery just as bad the second time around? I had septoplasty

with the first one, so I don't suppose I would have to deal with that

again, but I had a horrible experience with the first surgery (in the

hospital 5 days with fever, couldn't keep liquids down,on oxygen

because I couldn't breathe, etc.). Have you heard if it is easier on

number two?? And that is EXACTLY why my ortho hates me. He would

never accept responsibility for the failure of my surgery but instead

blamed it on the surgeon. She accepted responsiblity for her part

and tried to make ammends but he never has. His professional " toes "

were stepped on and he didn't like it. I don't see him contributing

poo to a second go-round. And my braces were $5000!! In addition,

my surgeon is only pitching in HER fees, not the hospital or

radiology or anesthesiology (my last surgery was $30,000 and

insurance paid all but about $8500). Whoa! Thanks for sharing your

friend's experience. It helps to know I'm not the only one out there

who got messed up.

In orthognathicsurgerysupport , fiddlesticks220002

wrote:

> Tracey, I can relate a bit to this from the experience a friend of

> mine had. She also had an open bite, which re-opened post-op. She

> had some pretty severe pain in the jaw joint as well, pretty much

> ignored by both ortho and surgeon. She's a registered nurse, and

> wasn't about to believe that it was all in her head. She persisted.

> Surgeon and ortho blamed each other. What I've read on-line is that

> open bites are difficult to treat, both orthodontically and

> orthognathically. So it may not be anybody's fault. It may be that

> you were ignored. It may be that your surgery was screwed up. I

> don't really have an answer to that.

>

> She was able to get her previous ortho to contribute something to

> the second round of braces. The surgeon did the second surgery

> without additional charge (it is covered under our provincial

health

> insurance, but she didn't have to pay for out-of-hospital visits to

> the surgeon). I'd have gone back to the same surgeon too - he did

my

> surgery and he's one of the best. Things just don't always go the

> way they should, unfortunately, although they do for the majority

of

> us.

>

> The fact that your surgeon has agreed to do the surgery over again

> for free is good. Could you use that as leverage with the ortho?

> Something didn't go right, the surgeon was willing to acknowledge

> that, what about the ortho? You have to return to treatment again,

> how about splitting the cost with a new ortho? It doesn't hurt to

> try. After all, he/she doesn't want to deal with you again, and you

> don't want to deal with that person, but what about some

recognition

> of their responsiblity in the failed result? Both surgeon and ortho

> are involved.

>

> Sorry that your result wasn't what you expected. Hope you resolve

> things soon.

>

>